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Post by willo on May 1, 2024 12:52:12 GMT 1
The notion that asking fans to pay extra will mean much more investment and a better product on the field is deeply floored whilst ever we’re run so badly behind the scenes. If we put the prices up by £100 average ticket price but take up drops to 10-12k that probably means approximately another million pounds of income. For perspective that gives our recruitment team the extra funds to go and get us one Ben Wiles or 2 Tyreece Simpson’s. It’s hardly a game changer !!! If the club decide to put up prices significantly (20%+) I suspect what may happen is we’ll drop back to 10k season card holders until we have a bit of success or they have a rethink over the model as Hoyle did whereby we prioritised numbers through the gate over lower numbers paying a bit more. That’s exactly what will happen.
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Post by boooothy on May 1, 2024 13:02:43 GMT 1
Hopefully if we get to own the stadium that will add potential income streams.
The basics to me are a car park we can charge for, a pub and seems crazy to me we turn away fans away.
Probably not an issue next season but Blackburn had 7000 Leeds and Sheff Wed fans paying full whack this season. Preston thousands of Leicester fans. If we did draw Man United in the cup, why can’t we get 7000 of em in paying 30 quid with a bit of a stadium rejig.
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Post by Mastercracker on May 1, 2024 13:08:05 GMT 1
When have I said we will be shit? You haven't but we will be unless we start making more money. We are already reliant on an owner for 10 million a year at championship level, unless they build revenue from tickets, merchandise, sponsors and commercial we will never be able to hack it at that level. Yes there will be anomalies where teams with less money get success but the margins for error are incredibly small as we are now finding out, If you really want to be successful in the top 2 divisions then you need a fanbase that isn't constantly penny pinching and understands the need to contribute within reason. We went up with brighton in 2017 and people like to compare us sometimes, their season tickets in the championship that season were as follows: Zone A................£475 Zone B + C.........£565 Zone D................£670 Zone E................£740 Zone F................£510 Luton Town 2022 promotion season £430 5 year loyalty £455 2 year loyalty £480 General Yes we're a level below championship now but I think anywhere in the 300-400 mark is reasonable Not sure you can viably compare HTFC to probably the second most middle class club in the country after Fulham, based in a hugely affluent area.
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Post by galpharm2400 on May 1, 2024 13:15:57 GMT 1
I cant comment on what is a fair price for a 1st division season card. I dont know how much a good commercial team can bring in, I dont know how our ins and outs will go this Summer. Last but not least I dont know how much Kev is prepared to speculate to get out first time. A 'fair' price for 2024/25 cant be based on previous discounts given we have had them and the finances of many have taken a huge hit recently. What other clubs charge could be a marker depending on where they are located and of course their owners etc. Not really wanting to tell others in better or worse financial situations how much I think they should be paying. Whatever I end up paying I dont want promises to encourage me to do so, actions after the fact count, not promises beforehand and thats the quandry. Do I trust kev and the club to minimise mistakes, every club makes them but we have been outstanding at shooting ourselves in the foot recently.? As of now, I await being convinced. Id like to be as optimistic as I usually am for a new season but recent failures to either take advantage or to forsee and deal with obvious or impending problems makes that tough. The 'small dog' syndrome wont wash next year.
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Post by space hardware on May 1, 2024 13:18:22 GMT 1
You haven't but we will be unless we start making more money. We are already reliant on an owner for 10 million a year at championship level, unless they build revenue from tickets, merchandise, sponsors and commercial we will never be able to hack it at that level. Yes there will be anomalies where teams with less money get success but the margins for error are incredibly small as we are now finding out, If you really want to be successful in the top 2 divisions then you need a fanbase that isn't constantly penny pinching and understands the need to contribute within reason. We went up with brighton in 2017 and people like to compare us sometimes, their season tickets in the championship that season were as follows: Zone A................£475 Zone B + C.........£565 Zone D................£670 Zone E................£740 Zone F................£510 Luton Town 2022 promotion season £430 5 year loyalty £455 2 year loyalty £480 General Yes we're a level below championship now but I think anywhere in the 300-400 mark is reasonable Not sure you can viably compare HTFC to probably the second most middle class club in the country after Fulham, based in a hugely affluent area. Or a club with a stadium that held 10,356 fans in 2022/23, based within commuting distance of London.
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 13:23:52 GMT 1
Not sure you can viably compare HTFC to probably the second most middle class club in the country after Fulham, based in a hugely affluent area. Or a club with a stadium that held 10,356 fans in 2022/23, based within commuting distance of London. So who are we comparable to then? Preston cheapest in the championship next season at £294? They are losing £12 million a year BTW, it looks like they are looking for a new owner to fund the losses since the death of uncle trevor
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Post by htafcokay on May 1, 2024 13:29:23 GMT 1
I don't understand why we have to compare to everyone else?
Would the shopkeeper put his prices up because the shopkeeper down the road has more expensive prices?
Just stick to what works, and I don't think anyone can argue that the idea of cheap tickets works. We have maintained an average of over 17,000 since 2016.
Before that, the last time we'd averaged 17,000 or more was 1971.
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 13:39:39 GMT 1
I don't understand why we have to compare to everyone else? Would the shopkeeper put his prices up because the shopkeeper down the road has more expensive prices? Just stick to what works, and I don't think anyone can argue that the idea of cheap tickets works. We have maintained an average of over 17,000 since 2016. Before that, the last time we'd averaged 17,000 or more was 1971. We haven't averaged that though, nobody turns up so the benefit of the numbers isn't there. Plus the pay on the gate is now probably close to nothing, whereas before someone without a season card would pay on the gate they just ask their group of mates and normally at least 1 isn't attending so they take their seat. Also, the shopkeeper isn't putting his cabbages out to play against the other cabbages if he was he'd want to buy the best cabbages and therefore would be putting his prices up so he can afford them.
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Post by htafcokay on May 1, 2024 13:42:41 GMT 1
I don't understand why we have to compare to everyone else? Would the shopkeeper put his prices up because the shopkeeper down the road has more expensive prices? Just stick to what works, and I don't think anyone can argue that the idea of cheap tickets works. We have maintained an average of over 17,000 since 2016. Before that, the last time we'd averaged 17,000 or more was 1971. We haven't averaged that though, nobody turns up so the benefit of the numbers isn't there. Plus the pay on the gate is now probably close to nothing, whereas before someone without a season card would pay on the gate they just ask their group of mates and normally at least 1 isn't attending so they take their seat. Also, the shopkeeper isn't putting his cabbages out to play against the other cabbages if he was he'd want to buy the best cabbages and therefore would be putting his prices up so he can afford them. The figures say otherwise.
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Post by Ginger Ogre on May 1, 2024 13:45:55 GMT 1
Or a club with a stadium that held 10,356 fans in 2022/23, based within commuting distance of London. So who are we comparable to then? Preston cheapest in the championship next season at £294? They are losing £12 million a year BTW, it looks like they are looking for a new owner to fund the losses since the death of uncle trevor If you want to use Preston as a comparison then it’s a good place to start, as in 22/23 accounts both Town and Preston recorded a Match Day income of £3.9m, with Town having a 3,789 higher average attendance. For that season Preston sold adult tickets ranging from £280 (Early Bird)/£400 (Non Early Bird) to £535, and appear (from what I can see) to have category pricing depending on block sat in within the same stand (something were very keen to introduce) Interestingly they allow U11s in for free which I think is great. For the above period they sold around 11,300 when the early bird prices came to an end (3rd June 2023) and around 11% of these were new Season Card holders for the season so the reduction in price certainly enticed new fans to attend, or attracted existing fans who may have stopped going due to cost. So looking at the prices used by Preston, the question would be if Town increased to those in line with those Preston charged would we sell around 4k less? If we did, then net outcome in regards to revenue would be the same, only with 4k less fans coming to the stadium on a weekly basis. This is where the club will a hit on the supplementary income that comes in after ticket sales. You’ve automatically reduced your reach for things like shirt sales, food sales, beer sales, other merchandise sales by 4k. Sponsorship is suddenly worth loss as the potential reach for advertisement is reduced. So by increasing pricing you’ve actually taken a hit overall If the club are wanting to maximise revenue, increase a season ticket price is probably one of the worst things they could do.
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Post by Ginger Ogre on May 1, 2024 13:54:15 GMT 1
On a side note, if the club put out Season Cards on sale at a price of £249 and some fans think this is too low, I'm sure the club wouldn't say no to these fans paying extra to make up the difference to whatever they think the price should be.
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Post by Sio on May 1, 2024 14:02:01 GMT 1
On a side note, if the club put out Season Cards on sale at a price of £249 and some fans think this is too low, I'm sure the club wouldn't say no to these fans paying extra to make up the difference to whatever they think the price should be. And a grand total of zero people would take up this opportunity
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 14:02:45 GMT 1
So who are we comparable to then? Preston cheapest in the championship next season at £294? They are losing £12 million a year BTW, it looks like they are looking for a new owner to fund the losses since the death of uncle trevor If you want to use Preston as a comparison then it’s a good place to start, as in 22/23 accounts both Town and Preston recorded a Match Day income of £3.9m, with Town having a 3,789 higher average attendance. For that season Preston sold adult tickets ranging from £280 (Early Bird)/£400 (Non Early Bird) to £535, and appear (from what I can see) to have category pricing depending on block sat in within the same stand (something were very keen to introduce) Interestingly they allow U11s in for free which I think is great. For the above period they sold around 11,300 when the early bird prices came to an end (3rd June 2023) and around 11% of these were new Season Card holders for the season so the reduction in price certainly enticed new fans to attend, or attracted existing fans who may have stopped going due to cost. So looking at the prices used by Preston, the question would be if Town increased to those in line with Preston would we sell around 4k less? If we did, then net outcome in regards to revenue would be the same, only with 4k less fans coming to the stadium on a weekly basis. This is where the club will a hit on the supplementary income that comes in after ticket sales. You’ve automatically reduced your reach for things like shirt sales, food sales, beer sales, other merchandise sales by 4k. Sponsorship is suddenly worth loss as the potential reach for advertisement is reduced. So by increasing pricing you’ve actually taken a hit overall If the club are wanting to maximise revenue, increase a season ticket price is probably one of the worst things they could do. Depends if they put a proper team out, if you put prices up and put a proper team out people will pay to watch it. I mean Preston are a bad example in terms of the team on the pitch as they haven't got close to promotion out of the champ for a while even when they were propped up by a billionaire who has unfortunately passed away. If the product is good and we are supposedly a championship level football club in terms of size then our attendances should be in the 15-17000 range at any reasonable price. Whether that comes through season cards doesn't matter. It is a complex formula and if they were putting them up to £500 I would agree it is too much. However asking town fans to pay £300 to £350 for 23 games seems reasonable to me. So what are we saying then is that town are a league 1 club similar in size to Bradford and Preston that essentially will always need propping up by a billionaire to get to the championship and in order to get big crowds this needs to be at a bargain basement prices.
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 14:04:58 GMT 1
On a side note, if the club put out Season Cards on sale at a price of £249 and some fans think this is too low, I'm sure the club wouldn't say no to these fans paying extra to make up the difference to whatever they think the price should be. Been put forward before and as you know it is a ridiculously stupid point and one that will invite the likes from the dummies. This is a grown up debate with valid points on both sides and this sort of nonsense just turns it into childish tit for tat. Nobody wants the prices to go up, they just understand it and fighting the club for every dime doesn't create a winning formula
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Post by htafcokay on May 1, 2024 14:05:09 GMT 1
I don't even mind paying more for season tickets if we make a statement of intent and actually sign some decent players.
I'm not paying £50-£100 more to watch David Kasumu, Danny Ward, Ben Jackson, Scott High, Kian Harratt, Josh Austerfield, Tyreece Simpson, Kyle Hudlin, Jaheim Headley, Pat Jones and Kieran Phillips "tearing up League One".
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 14:07:01 GMT 1
I don't even mind paying more for season tickets if we make a statement of intent and actually sign some decent players. I'm not paying £50-£100 more to watch David Kasumu, Danny Ward, Ben Jackson, Scott High, Kian Harratt, Josh Austerfield, Tyreece Simpson, Kyle Hudlin, Jaheim Headley, Pat Jones and Kieran Phillips "tearing up League One". Wholeheartedly agree with this point! It is chicken and egg which comes first. If we put the prices up the board can be held to account on why we can't put a competitive team out or be competitive in the transfer market. If not these kind of players will become the norm.
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Post by htafcokay on May 1, 2024 14:09:42 GMT 1
I don't even mind paying more for season tickets if we make a statement of intent and actually sign some decent players. I'm not paying £50-£100 more to watch David Kasumu, Danny Ward, Ben Jackson, Scott High, Kian Harratt, Josh Austerfield, Tyreece Simpson, Kyle Hudlin, Jaheim Headley, Pat Jones and Kieran Phillips "tearing up League One". Wholeheartedly agree with this point! It is chicken and egg which comes first. If we put the prices up the board can be held to account on why we can't put a competitive team out or be competitive in the transfer market. If not these kind of players will become the norm.They've already become the norm, and that's the problem. There has been zero enjoyment this season, mostly because we have a substandard bunch of players that cannot do the basics, such as passing to teammates, controlling a ball, marking players, closing players down and getting shots on target. That's before we even get into the notion of actually scoring goals and defending goals. There's no way I'm paying MORE money, when we're in a lower division, to watch those same players doing what they've done this season. It doesn't matter what level you're at, if you can't pass the ball to someone in the Championship you're not going to suddenly start being able to do it in League One.
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 14:13:28 GMT 1
Wholeheartedly agree with this point! It is chicken and egg which comes first. If we put the prices up the board can be held to account on why we can't put a competitive team out or be competitive in the transfer market. If not these kind of players will become the norm.They've already become the norm, and that's the problem. There has been zero enjoyment this season, mostly because we have a substandard bunch of players that cannot do the basics, such as passing to teammates, controlling a ball, marking players, closing players down and getting shots on target. That's before we even get into the notion of actually scoring goals and defending goals. There's no way I'm paying MORE money, when we're in a lower division, to watch those same players doing what they've done this season. It doesn't matter what level you're at, if you can't pass the ball to someone in the Championship you're not going to suddenly start being able to do it in League One. That is your decision, I'm not saying anyone has to pay it. I think everyone will be considering their options. I think the club should put them up if it means we can be competitive and buy better players and if they do that I think you would find our fans coming back quite quickly as long as they see that change. The cheap ticket shit players model bores me as you've rightly pointed out we end up with the dross players in your list.
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Post by htafcokay on May 1, 2024 14:18:21 GMT 1
They've already become the norm, and that's the problem. There has been zero enjoyment this season, mostly because we have a substandard bunch of players that cannot do the basics, such as passing to teammates, controlling a ball, marking players, closing players down and getting shots on target. That's before we even get into the notion of actually scoring goals and defending goals. There's no way I'm paying MORE money, when we're in a lower division, to watch those same players doing what they've done this season. It doesn't matter what level you're at, if you can't pass the ball to someone in the Championship you're not going to suddenly start being able to do it in League One. That is your decision, I'm not saying anyone has to pay it. I think everyone will be considering their options. I think the club should put them up if it means we can be competitive and buy better players and if they do that I think you would find our fans coming back quite quickly as long as they see that change. The cheap ticket shit players model bores me as you've rightly pointed out we end up with the dross players in your list. The only thing that will bring fans back is winning. I don't care what anyone says, that squad is not going to win games without some serious investment and changes. It doesn't matter who the manager is, if you can't pass a ball, you can't pass a ball. So much of that squad cannot do the basics and it's a savage indictment on the recruitment over the last few years. While people can blame Cartwright all they want, it was Leigh Bromby that recruited most of this dross.
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Post by Ginger Ogre on May 1, 2024 14:19:03 GMT 1
On a side note, if the club put out Season Cards on sale at a price of £249 and some fans think this is too low, I'm sure the club wouldn't say no to these fans paying extra to make up the difference to whatever they think the price should be. Been put forward before and as you know it is a ridiculously stupid point and one that will invite the likes from the dummies. This is a grown up debate with valid points on both sides and this sort of nonsense just turns it into childish tit for tat. Nobody wants the prices to go up, they just understand it and fighting the club for every dime doesn't create a winning formula Its not a stupid point at all, there are lots of people in this thread alone who are basically campaigning for prices to rise. I'm just pointing out that if these people want the club to increase prices the, they could easily pay the price they want it to be and let others pay what's advertised.
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 14:23:57 GMT 1
Been put forward before and as you know it is a ridiculously stupid point and one that will invite the likes from the dummies. This is a grown up debate with valid points on both sides and this sort of nonsense just turns it into childish tit for tat. Nobody wants the prices to go up, they just understand it and fighting the club for every dime doesn't create a winning formula Its not a stupid point at all, there are lots of people in this thread alone who are basically campaigning for prices to rise. I'm just pointing out that if these people want the club to increase prices the, they could easily pay the price they want it to be and let others pay what's advertised. They aren't campaigning for it, they understand the need for the rise to be competitive. If we want to be a championship level football club consistently competing to get to the premier league you can't charge £249 every season for season cards, if our aim is to stay in league 1 then fine keep them at that level 👍🏻
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 14:28:52 GMT 1
That is your decision, I'm not saying anyone has to pay it. I think everyone will be considering their options. I think the club should put them up if it means we can be competitive and buy better players and if they do that I think you would find our fans coming back quite quickly as long as they see that change. The cheap ticket shit players model bores me as you've rightly pointed out we end up with the dross players in your list. The only thing that will bring fans back is winning. I don't care what anyone says, that squad is not going to win games without some serious investment and changes. It doesn't matter who the manager is, if you can't pass a ball, you can't pass a ball. So much of that squad cannot do the basics and it's a savage indictment on the recruitment over the last few years. While people can blame Cartwright all they want, it was Leigh Bromby that recruited most of this dross. agree that is what I mean if they put out a good team that wins regularly we will get the fans in at a decent price for both sides.
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Post by htafcokay on May 1, 2024 14:33:05 GMT 1
Its not a stupid point at all, there are lots of people in this thread alone who are basically campaigning for prices to rise. I'm just pointing out that if these people want the club to increase prices the, they could easily pay the price they want it to be and let others pay what's advertised. They aren't campaigning for it, they understand the need for the rise to be competitive. If we want to be a championship level football club consistently competing to get to the premier league you can't charge £249 every season for season cards, if our aim is to stay in league 1 then fine keep them at that level 👍🏻 Yet for our best season in 45 years our season tickets were the least expensive in decades. There is no correlation between expensive prices and success.
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Post by paderbornterrier on May 1, 2024 14:33:12 GMT 1
Yeah, its my situation and the 4000 other fans in the same boat that regularly don't turn up..... that's why there is a threshold. 12000 may be realistic in league 1, that could be 8000 at £350. We Dropped the price to get these extra fans in, Now we put them back up after dropping a division.... what happens to these fans? My point is the reason they wont renew, is the opposite of why they got one originally. Ive never been a 23 games a season fan, I got a season ticket when it made sense along with 4000 others and wont when it doesn't make sense.... probably with around 4000 others. This honestly isn’t a criticism. Do the club want season ticket holders like yourself? Of course you are wanted as a fan but a very simple ticket purchasing system where you just pay 25 quid each game you can make. Ticket on your phone? Does that make more sense? You’d probably have a very similar outlay to this season to watch the games you want. Then the rest of us who attend 23 pick up the slack and pay a bit more? 4000 empty season ticket seats is a terrible look and the attendances we announce a joke. They could charge the remaining 8000 anything and the increase in turnover would probably be greater than the drop off in fans..... Do you want the club to treat you like that? Thats the point where the cost of football becomes elastic. Ideally the club want 24000 of those. The point is do the club want tickets sold around the 10000 mark again or do they want 18000? There is no way to get to 18000 without either cheap season tickets, premier league football, or providing a product worthy of watching and even then probably requires a combination of two factors. We have been stung by the you buy the tickets we buy the players before. Also the people watching now are fans, not tourists. If we were in the prem with ridiculous season ticket prices the ground would be full of Chinese tourists cheering on man utd.
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Post by paderbornterrier on May 1, 2024 14:36:55 GMT 1
On a side note, if the club put out Season Cards on sale at a price of £249 and some fans think this is too low, I'm sure the club wouldn't say no to these fans paying extra to make up the difference to whatever they think the price should be. I would have been asking the club to pay me compensation on the price i think this years should have been.
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 14:37:52 GMT 1
They aren't campaigning for it, they understand the need for the rise to be competitive. If we want to be a championship level football club consistently competing to get to the premier league you can't charge £249 every season for season cards, if our aim is to stay in league 1 then fine keep them at that level 👍🏻 Yet for our best season in 45 years our season tickets were the least expensive in decades. There is no correlation between expensive prices and success. We had an owner pumping in money every season and it caught up with us in the end. They could do a win related scheme, not sure how well received that would be. Say every season card is £399 70+ points no refund, 60-70 points £50 refund, 50-60 points £100 refund, 50 or below £150 refund.
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Post by htafcokay on May 1, 2024 14:40:27 GMT 1
Yet for our best season in 45 years our season tickets were the least expensive in decades. There is no correlation between expensive prices and success. We had an owner pumping in money every season and it caught up with us in the end. They could do a win related scheme, not sure how well received that would be. Say every season card is £399 70+ points no refund, 60-70 points £50 refund, 50-60 points £100 refund, 50 or below £150 refund. Or just keep it as it is, actually invest in the team, have some success and then put the prices up. I can guarantee that most people wouldn't be bothered in the slightest if they had to pay an increase in the event of promotion. Putting the prices up after a relegation is absolutely stupid, but I wouldn't expect anything different from this owner. Nagle knew that Hoyle had been propping it up for years, so he's going to have to get his hand in his pocket, otherwise we'll be going nowhere for the foreseeable.
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Post by Sio on May 1, 2024 14:45:53 GMT 1
Yet for our best season in 45 years our season tickets were the least expensive in decades. There is no correlation between expensive prices and success. We had an owner pumping in money every season and it caught up with us in the end.
They could do a win related scheme, not sure how well received that would be. Say every season card is £399 70+ points no refund, 60-70 points £50 refund, 50-60 points £100 refund, 50 or below £150 refund. An increase in SC prices isn't going to change that - if we want to compete at the top end of the Championship, a few hundred thousand a year is changing nothing and the club will still be relying on an owner. And if, like our previous owner, Kevin decides he wants tens of millions back from the club, our £50 extra on season cards isn't going to have made a dent in paying that debt back. Best thing the club can do right now is improve how we perceive the product, and a full stadium goes a long way to doing that. The football is awful, it might be no better next season - let's at least create an atmosphere and get the club back on the right track. The alternative is probably equally bad football but in front of a half-empty stadium - that does nobody any good.
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Post by boooothy on May 1, 2024 14:48:19 GMT 1
This honestly isn’t a criticism. Do the club want season ticket holders like yourself? Of course you are wanted as a fan but a very simple ticket purchasing system where you just pay 25 quid each game you can make. Ticket on your phone? Does that make more sense? You’d probably have a very similar outlay to this season to watch the games you want. Then the rest of us who attend 23 pick up the slack and pay a bit more? 4000 empty season ticket seats is a terrible look and the attendances we announce a joke. They could charge the remaining 8000 anything and the increase in turnover would probably be greater than the drop off in fans..... Do you want the club to treat you like that? Thats the point where the cost of football becomes elastic. Ideally the club want 24000 of those. The point is do the club want tickets sold around the 10000 mark again or do they want 18000? There is no way to get to 18000 without either cheap season tickets, premier league football, or providing a product worthy of watching and even then probably requires a combination of two factors. We have been stung by the you buy the tickets we buy the players before. Also the people watching now are fans, not tourists. If we were in the prem with ridiculous season ticket prices the ground would be full of Chinese tourists cheering on man utd. I don’t know the answer. Do they want 10000 sales and they all turn up or do they want 18000 and a lot of empty “good seats” I can see definate benefits to 10,000. The obvious one they pay more.Then things like ticket priority actually become worthwhile, right now having a season ticket doesn’t do you any good.
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DuffMan
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Post by DuffMan on May 1, 2024 14:51:07 GMT 1
We had an owner pumping in money every season and it caught up with us in the end. They could do a win related scheme, not sure how well received that would be. Say every season card is £399 70+ points no refund, 60-70 points £50 refund, 50-60 points £100 refund, 50 or below £150 refund. Or just keep it as it is, actually invest in the team, have some success and then put the prices up. I can guarantee that most people wouldn't be bothered in the slightest if they had to pay an increase in the event of promotion. Putting the prices up after a relegation is absolutely stupid, but I wouldn't expect anything different from this owner. Nagle knew that Hoyle had been propping it up for years, so he's going to have to get his hand in his pocket, otherwise we'll be going nowhere for the foreseeable. Can't disagree too much, personally I'm not gonna kick up a fuss if they put them up within reason with the caveat that I expect proper investment in the team
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