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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Mar 18, 2024 11:50:04 GMT 1
Couple of points adding to the above - Wagner was revolutionary, now it's been done before. So not a similar comparison.
The mentality of the players is the biggest thing for me. They are flakey. On Saturday's game there was a real frustration that was evident and palpable on the players's faces through the game, a large part because of the appalling officiating and particularly as Rotherham had that irritating spell of long throws midway through the half. The game wasn't going the way they wanted and they allowed a kind of pitying frustration to get the better of them. We needed a leader on the pitch to calm them down and get them playing football.
Whatever happens in the summer, I'd like to see us sign 2/3 captains or similar in midfield and up front that can lead by example and have a resilient, winner's mentality - of course the coaching team needs to help create that as well. Buying in captains helped the Wagner promotion team hugely.
Warnock got a tune out of the squad (which has changed) last year because he's a genius at doing it - I fear that AB won't have the same impact on their mentality and that will consign us to the third tier.
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Mar 18, 2024 11:50:34 GMT 1
Somehow or other what this club needs more than anything is stability and unity. The immediate short term priority is to stay in the Championship, I think we can all agree on that. Then we reset, from the Board to the first team and the Academy.
What is fairly certain is there’ll never be stability if there’s a change in manager and coaching staff three times a season.
Comparing AB with DW is futile, in my opinion. His previous experience suggests we have a good manager in AB, but he’s still new to the Championship and to English football. It was a gamble appointing him in many ways but wasn’t he exactly what a lot of posters on here were clamouring for?
My opinion is AB has to stay. He has to be given the resources and the chance to succeed. That is the way to stability, but without that solid base there’s no chance whatsoever for this club to progress.
The disappointments over the last six years or more, the constant struggles on the pitch, largely dire football and undoubted historical mismanagement are all (unsurprisingly) causing fans to have no patience and little or no confidence in the club anymore.
Get safe Town and then prove to the fan base that the club has ambition and knows where it wants to go and how to achieve it.
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 18, 2024 11:53:28 GMT 1
Couple of points adding to the above - Wagner was revolutionary, now it's been done before. So not a similar comparison. The mentality of the players is the biggest thing for me. They are flakey. On Saturday's game there was a real frustration that was evident and palpable on the players's faces through the game, a large part because of the appalling officiating and particularly as Rotherham had that irritating spell of long throws midway through the half. The game wasn't going the way they wanted and they allowed a kind of pitying frustration to get the better of them. We needed a leader on the pitch to calm them down and get them playing football. Whatever happens in the summer, I'd like to see us sign 2/3 captains or similar in midfield and up front that can lead by example and have a resilient, winner's mentality - of course the coaching team needs to help create that as well. Buying in captains helped the Wagner promotion team hugely. Warnock got a tune out of the squad (which has changed) last year because he's a genius at doing it - I fear that AB won't have the same impact on their mentality and that will consign us to the third tier. This is what Wagner did in preparation for the 2016-17 season. It worked. |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Mar 18, 2024 11:55:35 GMT 1
Different squad, different timing and different squad personaility/ attiude. Wagner came in and the players , wanted to change and show what they could do. I feel from listening to a lacksture Danny Ward on friday, we have a squad here , where just enough is enough for them . We actually have a squad here where quite a lot of them, relegation would suit them more than staying up, it seems. The mentaility is all wrong within the squad and the club this time around, Hoyle brought in Wagner where the club needed a drastic change and everyone was up for it. This time the squad are quite comfy doing what they are and do not want to change or do more. We also have quite a few players, who think they are better than they are and think they are going places, regardless of what happenes with Town. Wagner didn't have this when he came in and the odd players who didn't want to jump on board, where got shut of, AB cannot do this , also as someone pointed out its a different time of the season. Name some of those players then.... Always interesting what this character analysis of players is actually based upon. Don't like to single out individuals, but i saw a Sky interview with Rudoni talking about getting to the premier league. If he had end product that could take him to the premier league we wouldn't be in this mess. The chance he had in the first 10 minutes, a good run and lovely piece of skill to send Morrison to the corner shop. Bought him time in the box, twelve yards out. He has to absolutely bury that. Smash it in with some meaning, show that you mean business. Set an example to the other players that we as a team are good enough to take rotherham apart with quality. Instead he clothed it like he does too often and the keeper threw his cap on it. We didn't get another decent chance all game and the frustration on Rudoni's face was clear. |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Mar 18, 2024 12:09:02 GMT 1
Couple of points adding to the above - Wagner was revolutionary, now it's been done before. So not a similar comparison. The mentality of the players is the biggest thing for me. They are flakey. On Saturday's game there was a real frustration that was evident and palpable on the players's faces through the game, a large part because of the appalling officiating and particularly as Rotherham had that irritating spell of long throws midway through the half. The game wasn't going the way they wanted and they allowed a kind of pitying frustration to get the better of them. We needed a leader on the pitch to calm them down and get them playing football. Whatever happens in the summer, I'd like to see us sign 2/3 captains or similar in midfield and up front that can lead by example and have a resilient, winner's mentality - of course the coaching team needs to help create that as well. Buying in captains helped the Wagner promotion team hugely. Warnock got a tune out of the squad (which has changed) last year because he's a genius at doing it - I fear that AB won't have the same impact on their mentality and that will consign us to the third tier. This is what Wagner did in preparation for the 2016-17 season. It worked. Yeah that’s where the idea came from, and was the point I made later in the paragraph. |
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 18, 2024 12:11:02 GMT 1
This is what Wagner did in preparation for the 2016-17 season. It worked. Yeah that’s where the idea came from, and was the point I made later in the paragraph. Just skimmed the post initially. Apologies! |
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Post by bells ringing :) on Mar 18, 2024 13:48:45 GMT 1
Different squad, different timing and different squad personaility/ attiude. Wagner came in and the players , wanted to change and show what they could do. I feel from listening to a lacksture Danny Ward on friday, we have a squad here , where just enough is enough for them . We actually have a squad here where quite a lot of them, relegation would suit them more than staying up, it seems. The mentaility is all wrong within the squad and the club this time around, Hoyle brought in Wagner where the club needed a drastic change and everyone was up for it. This time the squad are quite comfy doing what they are and do not want to change or do more. We also have quite a few players, who think they are better than they are and think they are going places, regardless of what happenes with Town. Wagner didn't have this when he came in and the odd players who didn't want to jump on board, where got shut of, AB cannot do this , also as someone pointed out its a different time of the season. Name some of those players then.... Always interesting what this character analysis of players is actually based upon. Just listening to danny ward for example on friday, he sounded like he couldn't care less. The supposed older experienced players, it would suit them to be relegated as it means another year of cash and playing properly, where as staying up would mean bench or release for them. We also have players talking about premier league aspirations, how about focus on the here and now eh lads? istead of talking about things that maywell never happen. As currently i would be shocked if any priemer league clubs are banging our door down for any of them. Because currently non of them are standing our and in some cases are shwoing lacks of displine and a lack of care for the current club they are playing for. But don't worry lets blame Britentriter its easier. |
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Post by rockwall on Mar 18, 2024 13:50:31 GMT 1
Are we ignoring his first two matches now? The ones where he won at Watford and got a draw (with 10 men) at 2nd in the table Leeds? It doesn't feel like Warnock to Moore at all. Worthington did okay, but as usual, Town fans are exaggerating how good he was. The first half against Wednesday was absolutely dreadful, plus he threw away a 2-0 and 3-2 lead at Southampton as he had no idea what to do once we were in front, conceding five goals in 45 mins. And the Hull match was just as dreadful as most of Moore's games. The Sunderland match was a good performance, but it was one game. Breitenreiter has a decent enough CV for us to just shut up and let him get on with it. You obviously didn't go to the Hull game as that was far from dreadful, we were incredibly unlucky to lose that. Comfortably the best side for at least 70 minutes of that game. A game last 90+ minutes. Playing well for 70 means naff all if you don't make the most of it. The performance at Rotherham wasn't as bad as people are making out, we were woeful in the final 3rd. Under Worthington, we were 'ok'. We are over hyping the performances because of how bad we were under Moore. You mention that we played well for 70 minutes V Hull. Spin it the other way V Wednesday, as we were awful and 2nd best up until the crazy 15 minutes spell. We should have been 2 or 3 down at HT. AB seriously cannot be judged until we see the summer window and the first half dozen games next season. If we go down, it's all on the players and Moore in my opinion. |
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Post by oneneilwarnock on Mar 18, 2024 14:13:59 GMT 1
You obviously didn't go to the Hull game as that was far from dreadful, we were incredibly unlucky to lose that. Comfortably the best side for at least 70 minutes of that game. A game last 90+ minutes. Playing well for 70 means naff all if you don't make the most of it. The performance at Rotherham wasn't as bad as people are making out, we were woeful in the final 3rd. Under Worthington, we were 'ok'. We are over hyping the performances because of how bad we were under Moore. You mention that we played well for 70 minutes V Hull. Spin it the other way V Wednesday, as we were awful and 2nd best up until the crazy 15 minutes spell. We should have been 2 or 3 down at HT. AB seriously cannot be judged until we see the summer window and the first half dozen games next season. If we go down, it's all on the players and Moore in my opinion. I know we don't agree on much but I do with this post of yours, I just can't get my head around playing 5 at the back 3 centre back's against Charlie Wyke and Sorba Thomas up front in a 2 with Matos and Koroma on the bench. The issue also on top of Moore who was clearly out of his depth lies with Cartwright Edwards and Nagle too. Lets be honest (and yes its been done to death) a season of Warnock would have led us to mid table and in a much stronger position than whats looking likely we will find ourselves in this summer. AB needs time and his own players, hopefully we stay up and he has a list of recruits he wants from Europe to start a fresh in the off season. |
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Post by mosher on Mar 18, 2024 15:22:26 GMT 1
Different squad, different timing and different squad personaility/ attiude. Wagner came in and the players , wanted to change and show what they could do.I feel from listening to a lacksture Danny Ward on friday, we have a squad here , where just enough is enough for them . We actually have a squad here where quite a lot of them, relegation would suit them more than staying up, it seems. The mentaility is all wrong within the squad and the club this time around, Hoyle brought in Wagner where the club needed a drastic change and everyone was up for it. This time the squad are quite comfy doing what they are and do not want to change or do more. We also have quite a few players, who think they are better than they are and think they are going places, regardless of what happenes with Town. Wagner didn't have this when he came in and the odd players who didn't want to jump on board, where got shut of, AB cannot do this , also as someone pointed out its a different time of the season. Except a certain Mr Vaughan  |
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 18, 2024 15:25:02 GMT 1
Different squad, different timing and different squad personaility/ attiude. Wagner came in and the players , wanted to change and show what they could do.I feel from listening to a lacksture Danny Ward on friday, we have a squad here , where just enough is enough for them . We actually have a squad here where quite a lot of them, relegation would suit them more than staying up, it seems. The mentaility is all wrong within the squad and the club this time around, Hoyle brought in Wagner where the club needed a drastic change and everyone was up for it. This time the squad are quite comfy doing what they are and do not want to change or do more. We also have quite a few players, who think they are better than they are and think they are going places, regardless of what happenes with Town. Wagner didn't have this when he came in and the odd players who didn't want to jump on board, where got shut of, AB cannot do this , also as someone pointed out its a different time of the season. Except a certain Mr Vaughan And Mr. Lynch? |
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Post by mosher on Mar 18, 2024 15:25:43 GMT 1
Except a certain Mr Vaughan And Mr. Lynch? Oh god I forgot about him, easy to do  |
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Post by bells ringing :) on Mar 18, 2024 16:13:40 GMT 1
Except a certain Mr Vaughan And Mr. Lynch? Yes what i am saying and a point, that needs considering for me is
Wagner bar 2 players, had the squad all wanting to impress and show what they could do/ improve to be part of the club going forward.
AB seems to have come into a siatuion , where we have players who think they will be moving and or some players, who it seems to suit to be doing just enough.
The squad we currently have do not seem to be pulling in the same direction and have different agendas , Wagner got rid of the players who didn't get on board and was backed in doing so, but in the main every player wanted to progress or go to another level. We have a group here where pushing themelves or pushing above the " doing enough" seems not in the idea. The body lanauage , how they come across in interviews is so wrong for example.
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Post by rockwall on Mar 18, 2024 16:50:55 GMT 1
A game last 90+ minutes. Playing well for 70 means naff all if you don't make the most of it. The performance at Rotherham wasn't as bad as people are making out, we were woeful in the final 3rd. Under Worthington, we were 'ok'. We are over hyping the performances because of how bad we were under Moore. You mention that we played well for 70 minutes V Hull. Spin it the other way V Wednesday, as we were awful and 2nd best up until the crazy 15 minutes spell. We should have been 2 or 3 down at HT. AB seriously cannot be judged until we see the summer window and the first half dozen games next season. If we go down, it's all on the players and Moore in my opinion. I know we don't agree on much but I do with this post of yours, I just can't get my head around playing 5 at the back 3 centre back's against Charlie Wyke and Sorba Thomas up front in a 2 with Matos and Koroma on the bench. The issue also on top of Moore who was clearly out of his depth lies with Cartwright Edwards and Nagle too. Lets be honest (and yes its been done to death) a season of Warnock would have led us to mid table and in a much stronger position than whats looking likely we will find ourselves in this summer. AB needs time and his own players, hopefully we stay up and he has a list of recruits he wants from Europe to start a fresh in the off season. I think it's 3 at the back because we don't have a good enough Left Back fit. Personally, I would go a back 4 with Spencer at Left Back and Kasumu at RB. I know it isn't round pegs and round holes but both have shown they can perform there. A back 4 of kasumu helik balker Spencer would have all attributes needed. Matos should be playing in with Hogg and learning from him as he will be a more energetic carbon copy. We need a hell of a recruitment as we look like we are now stuck with 2 duds in Bojan and Healey. We are stuck with Ward for at least another season too. |
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Post by castlehillterrier on Mar 18, 2024 17:22:46 GMT 1
I know we don't agree on much but I do with this post of yours, I just can't get my head around playing 5 at the back 3 centre back's against Charlie Wyke and Sorba Thomas up front in a 2 with Matos and Koroma on the bench. The issue also on top of Moore who was clearly out of his depth lies with Cartwright Edwards and Nagle too. Lets be honest (and yes its been done to death) a season of Warnock would have led us to mid table and in a much stronger position than whats looking likely we will find ourselves in this summer. AB needs time and his own players, hopefully we stay up and he has a list of recruits he wants from Europe to start a fresh in the off season. I think it's 3 at the back because we don't have a good enough Left Back fit. Personally, I would go a back 4 with Spencer at Left Back and Kasumu at RB. I know it isn't round pegs and round holes but both have shown they can perform there. A back 4 of kasumu helik balker Spencer would have all attributes needed. Matos should be playing in with Hogg and learning from him as he will be a more energetic carbon copy. We need a hell of a recruitment as we look like we are now stuck with 2 duds in Bojan and Healey. We are stuck with Ward for at least another season too. Not too sure how you can judge Bojan and especially Healey both have not been fit enough to play enough minutes to be judged yet, Bojan looked off it but he is struggling with an injury as he has not had any sort of pre season training dont forget his season ended December and joined us after so not really a rest or a pre season I think you can only judge him on next season. Healey looks a good player to me and needs to start up front when fit I think he could be the missing link with work rate and finishing looking forward to him coming back and grabbing a feww important goals soon. |
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Post by oneneilwarnock on Mar 18, 2024 17:35:07 GMT 1
I know we don't agree on much but I do with this post of yours, I just can't get my head around playing 5 at the back 3 centre back's against Charlie Wyke and Sorba Thomas up front in a 2 with Matos and Koroma on the bench. The issue also on top of Moore who was clearly out of his depth lies with Cartwright Edwards and Nagle too. Lets be honest (and yes its been done to death) a season of Warnock would have led us to mid table and in a much stronger position than whats looking likely we will find ourselves in this summer. AB needs time and his own players, hopefully we stay up and he has a list of recruits he wants from Europe to start a fresh in the off season. I think it's 3 at the back because we don't have a good enough Left Back fit. Personally, I would go a back 4 with Spencer at Left Back and Kasumu at RB. I know it isn't round pegs and round holes but both have shown they can perform there. A back 4 of kasumu helik balker Spencer would have all attributes needed. Matos should be playing in with Hogg and learning from him as he will be a more energetic carbon copy. We need a hell of a recruitment as we look like we are now stuck with 2 duds in Bojan and Healey. We are stuck with Ward for at least another season too. Yeah thats fair, Nakayama injury against West Brom probably changed that game a lot more than I realised at the time, but then yeah even more reason to play Matos for extra energy to cover the yards in Midfield and protect. I imagine even Balker could do a job at left back, he's quick and has a wand of a left peg. But definitely prefer him CB. Kasumu has looked arguably better at points playing right back, so Coventry it maybe should be. Nicholls Kasumu Helik Pearson Balker Headley or Spencer Matos Hogg Rudoni Koroma Burgzorg If Healey isn't fit and AB doesn't fancy Wardy. |
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Post by rockwall on Mar 18, 2024 17:38:48 GMT 1
I think it's 3 at the back because we don't have a good enough Left Back fit. Personally, I would go a back 4 with Spencer at Left Back and Kasumu at RB. I know it isn't round pegs and round holes but both have shown they can perform there. A back 4 of kasumu helik balker Spencer would have all attributes needed. Matos should be playing in with Hogg and learning from him as he will be a more energetic carbon copy. We need a hell of a recruitment as we look like we are now stuck with 2 duds in Bojan and Healey. We are stuck with Ward for at least another season too. Yeah thats fair, Nakayama injury against West Brom probably changed that game a lot more than I realised at the time, but then yeah even more reason to play Matos for extra energy to cover the yards in Midfield and protect. I imagine even Balker could do a job at left back, he's quick and has a wand of a left peg. But definitely prefer him CB. Kasumu has looked arguably better at points playing right back, so Coventry it maybe should be. Nicholls Kasumu Helik Pearson Balker Headley or Spencer Matos Hogg Rudoni Koroma Burgzorg If Healey isn't fit and AB doesn't fancy Wardy. Agree with that. |
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Niggled
Iain Dunn Terrier
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Post by Niggled on Mar 18, 2024 17:41:37 GMT 1
I think it's 3 at the back because we don't have a good enough Left Back fit. Personally, I would go a back 4 with Spencer at Left Back and Kasumu at RB. I know it isn't round pegs and round holes but both have shown they can perform there. A back 4 of kasumu helik balker Spencer would have all attributes needed. Matos should be playing in with Hogg and learning from him as he will be a more energetic carbon copy. We need a hell of a recruitment as we look like we are now stuck with 2 duds in Bojan and Healey. We are stuck with Ward for at least another season too. Not too sure how you can judge Bojan and especially Healey both have not been fit enough to play enough minutes to be judged yet, Bojan looked off it but he is struggling with an injury as he has not had any sort of pre season training dont forget his season ended December and joined us after so not really a rest or a pre season I think you can only judge him on next season. Healey looks a good player to me and needs to start up front when fit I think he could be the missing link with work rate and finishing looking forward to him coming back and grabbing a feww important goals soon. You can judge him so far as being soft as shit. |
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Post by rockwall on Mar 18, 2024 17:48:41 GMT 1
I think it's 3 at the back because we don't have a good enough Left Back fit. Personally, I would go a back 4 with Spencer at Left Back and Kasumu at RB. I know it isn't round pegs and round holes but both have shown they can perform there. A back 4 of kasumu helik balker Spencer would have all attributes needed. Matos should be playing in with Hogg and learning from him as he will be a more energetic carbon copy. We need a hell of a recruitment as we look like we are now stuck with 2 duds in Bojan and Healey. We are stuck with Ward for at least another season too. Not too sure how you can judge Bojan and especially Healey both have not been fit enough to play enough minutes to be judged yet, Bojan looked off it but he is struggling with an injury as he has not had any sort of pre season training dont forget his season ended December and joined us after so not really a rest or a pre season I think you can only judge him on next season. Healey looks a good player to me and needs to start up front when fit I think he could be the missing link with work rate and finishing looking forward to him coming back and grabbing a feww important goals soon. I meant duds in terms of injuries. Bojan now out with an injury for the 3rd time. Yes his season finished but they play 26 games. So I would now be concerned as you're suggesting he is tired? So how will he cope with the demands of at least 48 games? Healey, I said when we signed him he wouldn't be any better than what we have. His stats are worse than Wards, and he is just as injury prone. He looked way off it against Blackburn and Sheff Wed. |
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Post by castlehillterrier on Mar 18, 2024 17:55:53 GMT 1
Yeah thats fair, Nakayama injury against West Brom probably changed that game a lot more than I realised at the time, but then yeah even more reason to play Matos for extra energy to cover the yards in Midfield and protect. I imagine even Balker could do a job at left back, he's quick and has a wand of a left peg. But definitely prefer him CB. Kasumu has looked arguably better at points playing right back, so Coventry it maybe should be. Nicholls Kasumu Helik Pearson Balker Headley or Spencer Matos Hogg Rudoni Koroma Burgzorg If Healey isn't fit and AB doesn't fancy Wardy. Agree with that. I had a very simlar side in the coventry thread time to make a few changes I think GK Nicholls RCB Spencer CB Helik LCB Baulker RWB Kasumu LWB Headley CM Hogg CM Matos ACM Rudoni CF Healey CF Burgzorg Ward or Koroma if Healey not ready, I like the back 3 with pace hence Pearson and Lees not in the 11, Kasumu better out wide especially with Sorba missing, for the home games I would have Sorba RWB as Spencer would cover him at that side and almost make a 4 when needed. Wiles could even come in for Rudoni as he has been poor last few weeks mabye needs dropping to fire him up. |
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Post by castlehillterrier on Mar 18, 2024 17:58:49 GMT 1
Not too sure how you can judge Bojan and especially Healey both have not been fit enough to play enough minutes to be judged yet, Bojan looked off it but he is struggling with an injury as he has not had any sort of pre season training dont forget his season ended December and joined us after so not really a rest or a pre season I think you can only judge him on next season. Healey looks a good player to me and needs to start up front when fit I think he could be the missing link with work rate and finishing looking forward to him coming back and grabbing a feww important goals soon. I meant duds in terms of injuries. Bojan now out with an injury for the 3rd time. Yes his season finished but they play 26 games. So I would now be concerned as you're suggesting he is tired? So how will he cope with the demands of at least 48 games? Healey, I said when we signed him he wouldn't be any better than what we have. His stats are worse than Wards, and he is just as injury prone. He looked way off it against Blackburn and Sheff Wed. Bojan not tired just not match sharp he has finished a season and then come to us he has been poor so far and soft I agree but I am not giving up on him yet. Healey I thought looked quite livley and palying out of position I think he adds another valuable option for us . |
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Post by alfredsterrier on Mar 18, 2024 22:10:04 GMT 1
AB arrived off the back of positive momentum created by JW, Wagner came in and watched us lose 3-0 to Leeds from the stands. Again I aren't saying AB isn't the answer, but Saturday was incredibly concerning. It feels like Warnock to Moore again, a couple of positive games (leaning on the prior regime) then back to turgid negative tactics. Bring on Coventry and Stoke, massive games just have a go! Are we ignoring his first two matches now? The ones where he won at Watford and got a draw (with 10 men) at 2nd in the table Leeds? It doesn't feel like Warnock to Moore at all. Worthington did okay, but as usual, Town fans are exaggerating how good he was. The first half against Wednesday was absolutely dreadful, plus he threw away a 2-0 and 3-2 lead at Southampton as he had no idea what to do once we were in front, conceding five goals in 45 mins. And the Hull match was just as dreadful as most of Moore's games. The Sunderland match was a good performance, but it was one game. Breitenreiter has a decent enough CV for us to just shut up and let him get on with it. Think I agree with this. Yes it was a breath of fresh air from DM to JW but it wasn’t without its flaws, don’t get me wrong I loved the new approach. You couldn’t continue like that though, all guns blazing and hope to score 1 more than you concede. AB’s cv earns him enough time and respect and please do not compare to DM. As someone else said the consistent thing is the players which must say something. |
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