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Post by detox on Mar 18, 2024 9:02:30 GMT 1
1st 5 games
Wagner W2 D0 L3 Pts 6
AB W1 D2 L2 Pts 5
League position on arrival v end of season
Wagner 19th ended 19th AB 20th current 22nd
Last 8 games of first season
Wagner W1 D3 L4 AB ?
And just to note under Wagner only 3 players that started the last game of the season , started the first game of the following (promotion) season.
Conclusion ?
erm....Rome wasn't built in a day 
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Post by daltonterrier44 on Mar 18, 2024 9:23:52 GMT 1
1st 5 games
Wagner W2 D0 L3 Pts 6
AB W1 D2 L2 Pts 5
League position on arrival v end of season
Wagner 19th ended 19th AB 20th current 22nd
Last 8 games of first season
Wagner W1 D3 L4 AB ?
And just to note under Wagner only 3 players that started the last game of the season , started the first game of the following (promotion) season.
Conclusion ?
erm....Rome wasn't built in a day
difference is we saw pretty much instant impact under Wagner, we lost 2-0 at home to Boro but battered them, I’ve seen nothing from Breitenreiter, the fact he saw no point in putting a winger in to try and win a 6 pointer tells me everything, even his post match he couldn’t look less interested. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2024 9:30:58 GMT 1
1st 5 games
Wagner W2 D0 L3 Pts 6
AB W1 D2 L2 Pts 5
League position on arrival v end of season
Wagner 19th ended 19th AB 20th current 22nd
Last 8 games of first season
Wagner W1 D3 L4 AB ?
And just to note under Wagner only 3 players that started the last game of the season , started the first game of the following (promotion) season.
Conclusion ?
erm....Rome wasn't built in a day
difference is we saw pretty much instant impact under Wagner, we lost 2-0 at home to Boro but battered them, I’ve seen nothing from Breitenreiter, the fact he saw no point in putting a winger in to try and win a 6 pointer tells me everything, even his post match he couldn’t look less interested. We’ve seen some excellent periods of play under AB, but also some underwhelming spells. 90 mins v Leeds albeit two different demands of 45 minutes and the first 45 v WBA. Wasnt at Watford, but the result counted in his favour. Cardiff and the last game and a half were in the underwhelming category. You surely cannot say we’ve seen nothing from him… |
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Post by Yuta be a terrier on Mar 18, 2024 9:31:04 GMT 1
Wagner also went to on to win 3 out the next 5 and only lose 1. If Andre does that then we will be almost safe.
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Post by The Sheriff Strikes Back on Mar 18, 2024 9:34:14 GMT 1
To be fair to AB, were it not for Hogg's stupidity v Leeds, we would be 2pts better off. The problem is however, is that even in the early defeats under Wagner, the positive approach and aggresive tactics were clear to see, and the fans were almost immediately won over by his methods.
While it's true that AB has a far weaker squad to work with, his approach against Cardiff, Rotherham, and 2nd half v WBA were all completely wrong. To not make any attacking substitutions v Rotherham was inexcusable, no matter what he thinks of the ability of players on the bench. After bringing Ward on v Watford and witnessing him single handedly win us the game, there was zero logic to not giving him at least 20 min on Saturday.
AB has shown us 225 min of exactly what we were hoping for under him, and 225 min of exactly what we hoped not to see again after Moore's departure.
Bottom line, he still has a lot to prove. Poor as this squad may be, to not walk away with 3pts on saturday was extremely poor from him.
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 18, 2024 9:34:44 GMT 1
The difference is that Wagner arrived in November, not February.
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Post by benhomly on Mar 18, 2024 9:43:05 GMT 1
To be fair to AB, were it not for Hogg's stupidity v Leeds, we would be 2pts better off. The problem is however, is that even in the early defeats under Wagner, the positive approach and aggresive tactics were clear to see, and the fans were almost immediately won over by his methods. While it's true that AB has a far weaker squad to work with, his approach against Cardiff, Rotherham, and 2nd half v WBA were all completely wrong. To not make any attacking substitutions v Rotherham was inexcusable, no matter what he thinks of the ability of players on the bench. After bringing Ward on v Watford and witnessing him single handedly win us the game, there was zero logic to not giving him at least 20 min on Saturday. AB has shown us 225 min of exactly what we were hoping for under him, and 225 min of exactly what we hoped not to see again after Moore's departure. Bottom line, he still has a lot to prove. Poor as this squad may be, to not walk away with 3pts on saturday was extremely poor from him. Might've been 2 pts better off, who's to say what would have happened 2nd half if there'd been 11 v 11? Rest of the above I can't argue with but I'd add that hopefully we'll get a big clear out of players over the summer so we can start again. Somethings clearly wrong and the only constant is the players. |
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Post by daltonterrier44 on Mar 18, 2024 9:43:51 GMT 1
difference is we saw pretty much instant impact under Wagner, we lost 2-0 at home to Boro but battered them, I’ve seen nothing from Breitenreiter, the fact he saw no point in putting a winger in to try and win a 6 pointer tells me everything, even his post match he couldn’t look less interested. We’ve seen some excellent periods of play under AB, but also some underwhelming spells. 90 mins v Leeds albeit two different demands of 45 minutes and the first 45 v WBA. Wasnt at Watford, but the result counted in his favour. Cardiff and the last game and a half were in the underwhelming category. You surely cannot say we’ve seen nothing from him… excellent is a slight over exaggeration, Watford was pretty standard and a fluke sub won the game against a poor Watford side, Leeds was decent defensively but they missed some big chances that they should have taken and the rest of the games we’ve been utter dross in my opinion, his whole body language looks already accepting of relegation to me. And that’s not going to transfer to the players well. |
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Post by oneneilwarnock on Mar 18, 2024 9:45:38 GMT 1
The difference is that Wagner arrived in November, not February. AB arrived off the back of positive momentum created by JW, Wagner came in and watched us lose 3-0 to Leeds from the stands. Again I aren't saying AB isn't the answer, but Saturday was incredibly concerning. It feels like Warnock to Moore again, a couple of positive games (leaning on the prior regime) then back to turgid negative tactics. Bring on Coventry and Stoke, massive games just have a go! |
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Post by Sio on Mar 18, 2024 9:50:03 GMT 1
I'd argue that Wagner's changes were also more stark due to how revolutionary his ideas were for the Championship at that time.
The idea of gegenpressing hadn't really been done but now every team claims to want to play that way - we see it every few weeks. I think the Watford and Leeds games would've blown our minds 7 years ago, but now it was essentially an impressive continuation of what JW was doing a few weeks earlier.
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Post by detox on Mar 18, 2024 9:50:06 GMT 1
Wagner also went to on to win 3 out the next 5 and only lose 1. If Andre does that then we will be almost safe. yeah but then got oly one point from the next 4 games....
I suppose if we take Wagners next 8 games (after the 1st 5 games)
W3 D2 L3 pts11
So if AB can get 11 points too....take us to 50 points...will that be enough ?
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 18, 2024 9:52:29 GMT 1
The difference is that Wagner arrived in November, not February. AB arrived off the back of positive momentum created by JW, Wagner came in and watched us lose 3-0 to Leeds from the stands. Again I aren't saying AB isn't the answer, but Saturday was incredibly concerning. It feels like Warnock to Moore again, a couple of positive games (leaning on the prior regime) then back to turgid negative tactics. Bring on Coventry and Stoke, massive games just have a go! Are we ignoring his first two matches now? The ones where he won at Watford and got a draw (with 10 men) at 2nd in the table Leeds? It doesn't feel like Warnock to Moore at all. Worthington did okay, but as usual, Town fans are exaggerating how good he was. The first half against Wednesday was absolutely dreadful, plus he threw away a 2-0 and 3-2 lead at Southampton as he had no idea what to do once we were in front, conceding five goals in 45 mins. And the Hull match was just as dreadful as most of Moore's games. The Sunderland match was a good performance, but it was one game. Breitenreiter has a decent enough CV for us to just shut up and let him get on with it. |
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Post by Yuta be a terrier on Mar 18, 2024 9:57:49 GMT 1
Wagner also went to on to win 3 out the next 5 and only lose 1. If Andre does that then we will be almost safe. yeah but then got oly one point from the next 4 games.... I suppose if we take Wagners next 8 games (after the 1st 5 games) W3 D2 L3 pts11 So if AB can get 11 points too....take us to 50 points...will that be enough ?
Looking around us the rate at which other teams are picking up points has slowed. Stoke and Blackburn have hard fixtures but QPR and Brums aren't too bad. Still think we could see a certain Mr Warnock back at Plymouth if they don't pick up. I personally think 51 will do it but we will be very nervous on the last day. |
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Post by dugnet on Mar 18, 2024 10:03:06 GMT 1
I think in the short period of time we have to analyse Britenreiter we have seen some encouraging things but also some that our less so.
Worthington may not have been perfect but he got an energy out of a group who had looked one paced under Moore. Britenreiter seems to have adopted a cautious approach when something more positive may have been beneficial (ie Cardiff and Rotherham).
It's all a bit of a mess isn't it though? I don't know if it's fair to judge him on these few games, although time will tell I suppose.
If he saves us he's not necessarily the new Wagner. Fail and he's also not necessarily the next Darren Moore.
As ever we have to sit,suffer and hope.
When the dust settles on the season is the time to make a call on where we are overall.
Wouldn't it be nice to have some confidence in the future and something to look forward to?
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Post by detox on Mar 18, 2024 10:03:32 GMT 1
AB arrived off the back of positive momentum created by JW, Wagner came in and watched us lose 3-0 to Leeds from the stands. Again I aren't saying AB isn't the answer, but Saturday was incredibly concerning. It feels like Warnock to Moore again, a couple of positive games (leaning on the prior regime) then back to turgid negative tactics. Bring on Coventry and Stoke, massive games just have a go! Are we ignoring his first two matches now? The ones where he won at Watford and got a draw (with 10 men) at 2nd in the table Leeds? It doesn't feel like Warnock to Moore at all. Worthington did okay, but as usual, Town fans are exaggerating how good he was. The first half against Wednesday was absolutely dreadful, plus he threw away a 2-0 and 3-2 lead at Southampton as he had no idea what to do once we were in front, conceding five goals in 45 mins. And the Hull match was just as dreadful as most of Moore's games. The Sunderland match was a good performance, but it was one game. Breitenreiter has a decent enough CV for us to just shut up and let him get on with it.You do know this is a fans football forum huh ? |
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 18, 2024 10:05:23 GMT 1
Are we ignoring his first two matches now? The ones where he won at Watford and got a draw (with 10 men) at 2nd in the table Leeds? It doesn't feel like Warnock to Moore at all. Worthington did okay, but as usual, Town fans are exaggerating how good he was. The first half against Wednesday was absolutely dreadful, plus he threw away a 2-0 and 3-2 lead at Southampton as he had no idea what to do once we were in front, conceding five goals in 45 mins. And the Hull match was just as dreadful as most of Moore's games. The Sunderland match was a good performance, but it was one game. Breitenreiter has a decent enough CV for us to just shut up and let him get on with it.You do know this is a fans football forum huh ? I do. But what is the constant whining going to achieve? We've just appointed a manager that has had a lot of success, much more than Wagner had when he arrived, and people are just going overboard after literally five games. He's only lost two of them! |
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Post by oneneilwarnock on Mar 18, 2024 10:11:42 GMT 1
AB arrived off the back of positive momentum created by JW, Wagner came in and watched us lose 3-0 to Leeds from the stands. Again I aren't saying AB isn't the answer, but Saturday was incredibly concerning. It feels like Warnock to Moore again, a couple of positive games (leaning on the prior regime) then back to turgid negative tactics. Bring on Coventry and Stoke, massive games just have a go! Are we ignoring his first two matches now? The ones where he won at Watford and got a draw (with 10 men) at 2nd in the table Leeds? It doesn't feel like Warnock to Moore at all. Worthington did okay, but as usual, Town fans are exaggerating how good he was. The first half against Wednesday was absolutely dreadful, plus he threw away a 2-0 and 3-2 lead at Southampton as he had no idea what to do once we were in front, conceding five goals in 45 mins. And the Hull match was just as dreadful as most of Moore's games. The Sunderland match was a good performance, but it was one game. Breitenreiter has a decent enough CV for us to just shut up and let him get on with it. You obviously didn't go to the Hull game as that was far from dreadful, we were incredibly unlucky to lose that. Comfortably the best side for at least 70 minutes of that game. |
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Post by Wagner Uber Alles on Mar 18, 2024 10:18:35 GMT 1
No Town manager since Ian Greaves has been as good for us as Der Meister.
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 18, 2024 10:26:08 GMT 1
Are we ignoring his first two matches now? The ones where he won at Watford and got a draw (with 10 men) at 2nd in the table Leeds? It doesn't feel like Warnock to Moore at all. Worthington did okay, but as usual, Town fans are exaggerating how good he was. The first half against Wednesday was absolutely dreadful, plus he threw away a 2-0 and 3-2 lead at Southampton as he had no idea what to do once we were in front, conceding five goals in 45 mins. And the Hull match was just as dreadful as most of Moore's games. The Sunderland match was a good performance, but it was one game. Breitenreiter has a decent enough CV for us to just shut up and let him get on with it. You obviously didn't go to the Hull game as that was far from dreadful, we were incredibly unlucky to lose that. Comfortably the best side for at least 70 minutes of that game. I did go, we were absolutely knackered after about half an hour and Worthington had no idea how to break Hull down. Rosenior absolutely did us that day, we were rubbish. Part of me wishes they'd have given Worthington the job so the likes of you would shut up moaning. But then again, the likes of you would have wanted him out by now because the caretaker manager bounce would have worn off by now. To be honest, it had already worn off by the Hull match but there you go. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on Mar 18, 2024 10:28:08 GMT 1
1st 5 games Wagner W2 D0 L3 Pts 6
AB W1 D2 L2 Pts 5
League position on arrival v end of season Wagner 19th ended 19th AB 20th current 22nd Last 8 games of first season Wagner W1 D3 L4 AB ? And just to note under Wagner only 3 players that started the last game of the season , started the first game of the following (promotion) season. Conclusion ? erm....Rome wasn't built in a day difference is we saw pretty much instant impact under Wagner, we lost 2-0 at home to Boro but battered them, I’ve seen nothing from Breitenreiter, the fact he saw no point in putting a winger in to try and win a 6 pointer tells me everything, even his post match he couldn’t look less interested. Disagree I went to Watford it was a pleasure and Leeds the next game wasn’t too bad either. Realistic is beyond some fans thought process , I know it’s the modern way, but maybe that’s the issue , we now live in a world where everyone wants things today . Then years down the line they wonder why they are piled with debt and worries. |
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Post by daltonterrier44 on Mar 18, 2024 10:37:22 GMT 1
difference is we saw pretty much instant impact under Wagner, we lost 2-0 at home to Boro but battered them, I’ve seen nothing from Breitenreiter, the fact he saw no point in putting a winger in to try and win a 6 pointer tells me everything, even his post match he couldn’t look less interested. Disagree I went to Watford it was a pleasure and Leeds the next game wasn’t too bad either. Realistic is beyond some fans thought process , I know it’s the modern way, but maybe that’s the issue , we now live in a world where everyone wants things today . Then years down the line they wonder why they are piled with debt and worries. all opinions pal, I’m very realistic and based on what I’ve seen I don’t think he’s the guy, the attitude of not seeing the point in trying to got for the win against the worst side in the division dosent fill me with any hope, really hope I’m wrong with this btw but from what he said in his first interview to now is a big difference. Playing multiple players out of position is another issue I having with him. |
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Post by The Sheriff Strikes Back on Mar 18, 2024 10:38:52 GMT 1
To be fair to AB, were it not for Hogg's stupidity v Leeds, we would be 2pts better off. The problem is however, is that even in the early defeats under Wagner, the positive approach and aggresive tactics were clear to see, and the fans were almost immediately won over by his methods. While it's true that AB has a far weaker squad to work with, his approach against Cardiff, Rotherham, and 2nd half v WBA were all completely wrong. To not make any attacking substitutions v Rotherham was inexcusable, no matter what he thinks of the ability of players on the bench. After bringing Ward on v Watford and witnessing him single handedly win us the game, there was zero logic to not giving him at least 20 min on Saturday. AB has shown us 225 min of exactly what we were hoping for under him, and 225 min of exactly what we hoped not to see again after Moore's departure. Bottom line, he still has a lot to prove. Poor as this squad may be, to not walk away with 3pts on saturday was extremely poor from him. Might've been 2 pts better off, who's to say what would have happened 2nd half if there'd been 11 v 11? Rest of the above I can't argue with but I'd add that hopefully we'll get a big clear out of players over the summer so we can start again. Somethings clearly wrong and the only constant is the players. Not a chance we weren't winning that game with 11 men on the pitch, Leeds were appalling. |
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Post by detox on Mar 18, 2024 10:41:42 GMT 1
You do know this is a fans football forum huh ? I do. But what is the constant whining going to achieve? We've just appointed a manager that has had a lot of success, much more than Wagner had when he arrived, and people are just going overboard after literally five games. He's only lost two of them! As far as I can see, the only 'whining' is coming from you, moaning about others posts ?
My OP was to show that despite only a point a game , AB is only marginally worse than DW's early games...the tenuous link being they're both Germans, that's all. Lighten up....
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Post by oneneilwarnock on Mar 18, 2024 10:51:45 GMT 1
You obviously didn't go to the Hull game as that was far from dreadful, we were incredibly unlucky to lose that. Comfortably the best side for at least 70 minutes of that game. I did go, we were absolutely knackered after about half an hour and Worthington had no idea how to break Hull down. Rosenior absolutely did us that day, we were rubbish. Part of me wishes they'd have given Worthington the job so the likes of you would shut up moaning. But then again, the likes of you would have wanted him out by now because the caretaker manager bounce would have worn off by now. To be honest, it had already worn off by the Hull match but there you go. I'm not saying give JW the job and don't tell me to shutup, idiot. I'm stating facts, yes they look knackered for the first 30 minutes but we had played Wednesday night, Hull had played Tuesday. That makes a massive difference in professional football not that you would understand. We were considerably better for 90 against Hull than we were against West Brom, the fact Matos isn't getting a sniff is alarming to say the least. The players probably aren't good enough to consistently keep having a go at teams we don't have anybody good enough to control the midfield/tempo of a game for long periods, hence why not playing our best asset there (a loanee) is just ridiculous. |
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 18, 2024 10:52:47 GMT 1
I do. But what is the constant whining going to achieve? We've just appointed a manager that has had a lot of success, much more than Wagner had when he arrived, and people are just going overboard after literally five games. He's only lost two of them! As far as I can see, the only 'whining' is coming from you, moaning about others posts ?
My OP was to show that despite only a point a game , AB is only marginally worse than DW's early games...the tenuous link being they're both Germans, that's all. Lighten up....
The "just shut up and let him get on with it" comment was meant metaphorically. |
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 18, 2024 10:54:26 GMT 1
I did go, we were absolutely knackered after about half an hour and Worthington had no idea how to break Hull down. Rosenior absolutely did us that day, we were rubbish. Part of me wishes they'd have given Worthington the job so the likes of you would shut up moaning. But then again, the likes of you would have wanted him out by now because the caretaker manager bounce would have worn off by now. To be honest, it had already worn off by the Hull match but there you go. I'm not saying give JW the job and don't tell me to shutup, idiot. I'm stating facts, yes they look knackered for the first 30 minutes but we had played Wednesday night, Hull had played Tuesday. That makes a massive difference in professional football not that you would understand. We were considerably better for 90 against Hull than we were against West Brom, the fact Matos isn't getting a sniff is alarming to say the least. The players probably aren't good enough to consistently keep having a go at teams we don't have anybody good enough to control the midfield/tempo of a game for long periods, hence why not playing our best asset there (a loanee) is just ridiculous. Yeah, it makes a massive difference when Worthington had them going hell for leather in the previous three games. That type of football just isn't sustainable and it told in that final game when they were absolutely fucked. And we weren't better against Hull than we were against West Brom at all. |
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Post by Mastercracker on Mar 18, 2024 10:55:48 GMT 1
There's so much more to being a successful football club that just having a good manager. Just look at the amount of managers that do well somewhere, stock rises, go somewhere else and fail miserably, stock falls. Even Warnock has just had a stinking spell at Aberdeen and has had other failures in his past.
The biggest problems we have remain chronic underinvestment for a number of years and now a January window where players either seemingly aren't ready or can't stay fit. I'd also seriously question the attitudes of a number of this squad. They are fragile, flaky and we seriously lack winners.
I did find the lack of subs strange but to start slating a manager with the pedigree AB has after 5 games and having a tantrum like he's some sort of idiot is ridiculous.
We need to move a number of these players on and sign half a new team this summer whichever league we are in.
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Post by oneneilwarnock on Mar 18, 2024 11:05:46 GMT 1
I'm not saying give JW the job and don't tell me to shutup, idiot. I'm stating facts, yes they look knackered for the first 30 minutes but we had played Wednesday night, Hull had played Tuesday. That makes a massive difference in professional football not that you would understand. We were considerably better for 90 against Hull than we were against West Brom, the fact Matos isn't getting a sniff is alarming to say the least. The players probably aren't good enough to consistently keep having a go at teams we don't have anybody good enough to control the midfield/tempo of a game for long periods, hence why not playing our best asset there (a loanee) is just ridiculous. Yeah, it makes a massive difference when Worthington had them going hell for leather in the previous three games. That type of football just isn't sustainable and it told in that final game when they were absolutely fucked. And we weren't better against Hull than we were against West Brom at all. I agree playing 3 times in a week it isn't not with a squad as limited as ours. We had a week to prepare for Rotherham and turned up with 5 at the back with our best centre mid sat on the bench. I don't know, can only judge halfway through next season with AB (providing he stays/we are in this league) give him his own players and some forward players who can consistently score goals he might approach it differently, just feel like Saturday was a massive backwards step in terms of performance. Fingers crossed the next two are better. |
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Post by bells ringing :) on Mar 18, 2024 11:08:37 GMT 1
Different squad, different timing and different squad personaility/ attiude.
Wagner came in and the players , wanted to change and show what they could do.
I feel from listening to a lacksture Danny Ward on friday, we have a squad here , where just enough is enough for them . We actually have a squad here where quite a lot of them, relegation would suit them more than staying up, it seems. The mentaility is all wrong within the squad and the club this time around, Hoyle brought in Wagner where the club needed a drastic change and everyone was up for it. This time the squad are quite comfy doing what they are and do not want to change or do more. We also have quite a few players, who think they are better than they are and think they are going places, regardless of what happenes with Town. Wagner didn't have this when he came in and the odd players who didn't want to jump on board, where got shut of, AB cannot do this , also as someone pointed out its a different time of the season.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2024 11:49:09 GMT 1
Different squad, different timing and different squad personaility/ attiude. Wagner came in and the players , wanted to change and show what they could do. I feel from listening to a lacksture Danny Ward on friday, we have a squad here , where just enough is enough for them . We actually have a squad here where quite a lot of them, relegation would suit them more than staying up, it seems. The mentaility is all wrong within the squad and the club this time around, Hoyle brought in Wagner where the club needed a drastic change and everyone was up for it. This time the squad are quite comfy doing what they are and do not want to change or do more. We also have quite a few players, who think they are better than they are and think they are going places, regardless of what happenes with Town. Wagner didn't have this when he came in and the odd players who didn't want to jump on board, where got shut of, AB cannot do this , also as someone pointed out its a different time of the season. Name some of those players then.... Always interesting what this character analysis of players is actually based upon. |
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