Midfield

[pauldaltonsboots]

After sleeping on it and trying to take a measured assessment of Town yesterday and so far this season, I think the midfield balance isn’t quite right.

Firstly, I think we have enough quality and variety with 7 centre midfielders who are all capable and have had strong seasons previously, so I don’t believe lack of quality.

I can see what Duff is trying to do with playing two centre mids high but it can lead to them being out of the game for large spells. I don’t think Evans is a bad player for example, but I think he is struggling with the position being asked to play.

Yesterday (and not an isolated game) there was not enough players in position with the right passing ability to get on the ball, facing forward. Made us predictable and easy to defend against.

If the preference is to play two CMs high, then you need a double pivot who can pass forward and move the ball quickly and incisively. This can come from holding midfielders, centre halves or inverted full-backs. The problem is we only have one doing that job (Hogg) and as much as I love Hogg, incisive passing forward has never been his biggest strength. In a back 3, maybe Balker could have been that man to step in to midfield, but for a home match yesterday against a team who would defend and counter, none of our 4 players (Hogg, Helik, Lees and Lonwijk) being asked to provide that, sits within their natural strengths.

Therefore it then leads to the ball being passed around the back in a predictable manner and with no purpose, and eventually on most occasions ending up with a wing-back with still loads to do.

Helik, Spencer and Evans for example are not bad players by any stretch, but at the moment the system is often making them look under par.

Duff changed the midfield 3 shape yesterday at half-time, so two holding mids and one central attacking mid which did give us better control and crucially gave our defenders better easy options, in particular Joe Hodge who wants to get on the ball at every opportunity.

When Kane came on, we had two CMs who are comfortable in possession and want to play with intensity and play forward passes.

Of course, Duff’s preferred system has worked in some games - for example Peterborough and Bolton away, so maybe suits us when the opposition are the home team and have that pressure to take the game to us and not just sit back. Even Rotherham away, when we didn’t play well, we did create good chances in the first half.

At home though, when onus on us to impose ourselves, then I think we are easy to defend against and susceptible to the counter. I think Duff needs to find more than one system so we can flex depending on each match and its individual circumstances.

For what it is worth, with it being a home match tomorrow and a chance to take the game to them, I would go with the following line-up in a 4231 formation:

Nicholls

Spencer
Lees
Helik
Lonwijk

Hodge
Kane

Marshall
Wiles
Koroma

Ladapo

UTT

[Paphos Terrier]

What's happened to Tom Lorpenda who looked head and shoulders our best midfielder in that cup game he's just vanished unless injured. We also need Kasumu and Miller back asap.
I just don't like our midfield of Hogg, Wiles and Evans hiding on a football pitch.

[pauldaltonsboots]

Sept 22, 2024 9:38:35 GMT 1 Paphos Terrier said:

What's happened to Tom Lorpenda who looked head and shoulders our best midfielder in that cup game he's just vanished unless injured. We also need Kasumu and Miller back asap.
I just don't like our midfield of Hogg, Wiles and Evans hiding on a football pitch.

Agree on Iorpenda - would like to see him more involved.

It feels to me (and I could be wrong!) that team is highly coached and therefore playing to dictated patterns, where to position themselves, where to run, where to cross etc and this rigidity and lack of freedom is proving difficult for some players to know the right balance of following the plan and playing on instinct.

[Paphos Terrier]

They should teach them how to control a football first and how to pass a ball, the majority cant do these simple things.
Our first touch yesterday was dire

[pterrier]

Sept 22, 2024 9:51:04 GMT 1 pauldaltonsboots said:

Sept 22, 2024 9:38:35 GMT 1 Paphos Terrier said:

What's happened to Tom Lorpenda who looked head and shoulders our best midfielder in that cup game he's just vanished unless injured. We also need Kasumu and Miller back asap.
I just don't like our midfield of Hogg, Wiles and Evans hiding on a football pitch.

Agree on Iorpenda - would like to see him more involved.

It feels to me (and I could be wrong!) that team is highly coached and therefore playing to dictated patterns, where to position themselves, where to run, where to cross etc and this rigidity and lack of freedom is proving difficult for some players to know the right balance of following the plan and playing on instinct.

You’re bang on with this. They are instructed to play in those areas and tbh you could put anyone in this current set up (where wiles and Evans play) and they’d also look anonymous. Hodge came on for Evans but played a much deeper role as we changed shape and we immediately had more cohesion.

[Tinpot]

Hogg should be used FAR more sparingly. I'm not saying he's shit or he should never play, but we've been saying for years that he should be performing "The Dean Whitehead role" now and yet he's consistently the first name on the team-sheet regardless of form or opposition. He looks fucked, which means both that he's taking the space of someone who's a longer term option, and also that you're not getting the best out of him.

Evans, I can't decide whether he's good or not. I look at his contribution so far and the bits I remember are good, but that's kind of the point. I'd probably have a higher opinion of him if I remembered some mistakes as well - but it's like he's either good or anonymous.

Wiles. See Evans, with the dual caveats that (imo) he's been better than Evans so far this season, but also that we saw him last season and he was dreadful.

Hodge - No idea what's wrong here. When I've seen him he looks really good but - like with Evans - the bit I've put in italics is carrying a lot of weight. Lively, energetic, tries to make things happen, good movement, good passing.... and not picked. It sounds like there was the same issue at QPR - started well but then never got in the side. Admittedly, there they have Sam Field & Jack Colback & I can see how he might not be a great fit in with those two, so may be it's that. I don't know what it is about him that I'm missing but based on what I've seen so far he's the only CM that I'd feel confident putting into the starting line-up for Tuesday, yet I'm fully expecting him to be on the bench again.

Kane - Coming back from injury, but you'd hope he'll get a lot more minutes once he's up to fitness. If he's capable of 45 minutes then I'd start him vs Blackpool and hook him at half time, but my gut feeling is he'll be on the bench. Fair enough.

Kasumu - I'd hope to see a lot more of him this season too. His passing is absolute bobbins but he's an athlete and he carries the ball forward very well. Wasn't picked much even before his injury though, so I'm guessing Duff doesn't rate him.

Iorpenda - We have enough options that we can afford to use him sparingly if he needs pulling out of the limelight, but perhaps he's being used TOO sparingly. I'd like to see him on the bench at least. Part of me wonders whether a loan would do him good, but it depends whether his career needs first team minutes more than it needs training alongside better players. I'm guessing the club believes the latter. TBH at this stage I'm inclined to agree, although I might be tempted to give him a loan in January. Maybe to a top end Lg2 club? He'd have a couple of familiar faces to greet him if he went to the side currently top of that division.

[28901]

Sept 22, 2024 10:02:50 GMT 1 Paphos Terrier said:

They should teach them how to control a football first and how to pass a ball, the majority cant do these simple things.
Our first touch yesterday was dire

Our passing has been dreadful since Mooy pulled the strings.

[detox]

What midfield?

Think Duff scrapped the Idea of playing through midfield some weeks ago.

Nowadays it's the long hoof and go chase it boys

No wonder they're all anonymous.

[digs]

I was born in Mirfield,same hospital as Patrick Stewart,went to the same opticians.

[Paphos Terrier]

Sept 23, 2024 0:46:13 GMT 1 detox said:

What midfield?

Think Duff scrapped the Idea of playing through midfield some weeks ago.

Nowadays it's the long hoof and go chase it boys

No wonder they're all anonymous.

Yes, this is weird he wants to play out from the back with our lot who are pretty crap and slow on the ball which leads to gifting opposition free goals then they boot it up field when put under presssure.
Playing central midfield though you have to shout for the ball, want it passing to your feet, someone telling you you've 'time' or 'man on' shout, fellow midfielders then giving you options making space for you to run into or a quick forward pass to a forward or midfielder it's all about making space working as a team moving forward. There's nothing wrong with a quick ball over the top for a striker to run onto but we don't seem to have that pacey player for that, new guy might.
I really think he needs to change the midfield Tuesday, Kane, Hodge and this might sound daft to some but I'd have a look at Lorpenda, if it doesn't work we can bring on whoever but it's certainly not working at home with the present midfield.
Hope Millers fit for Blackpool I like that lad good on the ball and can cross a lovely ball into the box.
It won't happen but Hogg just can't play again. He's good for the last 10 mins to see it through but never start him again for me.
Wiles needs to be told to 'get into the game'he never touched the ball hardly the first half.
Evans, good at Bolton but still not impressed yet.
Let's hope for a better performance and better tactics from Mr Duff Tuesday.

[calken]

Regarding passing, I keep seeing the training where they are in a tight circle with someone in the middle and they try and keep the ball off them. What does this improve? any player round the edge can pretty much pass it in any direction inwards and it will reach a player. Surely, there is a better way of training control, movement and passing? I would have thought two groups of three passing in a triangle trying to win the ball would be much more effective.

[Mastercracker]

I am refraining from judging Wiles/Evans/our tactics properly until they play with either Hodge or Kane.

I said it weeks ago, but 352 just does not require an out and out DM sat in front of a back 3. It needs a playmaker who can receive the ball from them, turn, operate in tight spaces and move the ball up the pitch. None of this was Hogg in his prime nevermind now. He should not be starting games especially at home and no matter how well he does at the things he is good at his lack of ability in the things the role requires are killing us tactically imo.

Evans and Wiles are completely anonymous but I'd love to see a pass map from Hogg to either of them. Sadly I don't think this level of detailed stats exists publicly at L1 level but I'd wager it's nowhere near as high as you'd expect it to be between a midfield 3.

As it stands the only way out is via the wingbacks which is 1) predictable as fuck and therefore easily nullified and 2) Puts far too much emphasis on them both having good games, and if they don't...well Saturday happens.

We HAVE to be able to play through midfield as well as the wingbacks and we will never do that properly with Hogg. All he has in his locker is a pass straight back to whichever CB gave him it or on the odd occasion he does receive the ball facing the opposition goal, a crossfield ball out to a WB in acres of space. As far as playing an incisive pass through the lines to Wiles or Evans, well I'd wager there's folk in the stands more capable of that.

[irverino]

I think the majority (including MD) would argue having a DM in front of three was more necessary than with a back four, I doubt very much we are going to start trying out new formations now so its going to be new personal instead.
Is Kane or Hodge going to be our Rodri/Rice? Maybe give them a run out against Blackpool or Reading......Hogg will lead the team out at St Andrews a week tomorrow, the Blues have had a little bit of stage fright themselves in front of the home fans, lets hope we will capitalise?

[runner76]

Sept 22, 2024 9:23:58 GMT 1 pauldaltonsboots said:

After sleeping on it and trying to take a measured assessment of Town yesterday and so far this season, I think the midfield balance isn’t quite right.

Firstly, I think we have enough quality and variety with 7 centre midfielders who are all capable and have had strong seasons previously, so I don’t believe lack of quality.

I can see what Duff is trying to do with playing two centre mids high but it can lead to them being out of the game for large spells. I don’t think Evans is a bad player for example, but I think he is struggling with the position being asked to play.

Yesterday (and not an isolated game) there was not enough players in position with the right passing ability to get on the ball, facing forward. Made us predictable and easy to defend against.

If the preference is to play two CMs high, then you need a double pivot who can pass forward and move the ball quickly and incisively. This can come from holding midfielders, centre halves or inverted full-backs. The problem is we only have one doing that job (Hogg) and as much as I love Hogg, incisive passing forward has never been his biggest strength. In a back 3, maybe Balker could have been that man to step in to midfield, but for a home match yesterday against a team who would defend and counter, none of our 4 players (Hogg, Helik, Lees and Lonwijk) being asked to provide that, sits within their natural strengths.

Therefore it then leads to the ball being passed around the back in a predictable manner and with no purpose, and eventually on most occasions ending up with a wing-back with still loads to do.

Helik, Spencer and Evans for example are not bad players by any stretch, but at the moment the system is often making them look under par.

Duff changed the midfield 3 shape yesterday at half-time, so two holding mids and one central attacking mid which did give us better control and crucially gave our defenders better easy options, in particular Joe Hodge who wants to get on the ball at every opportunity.

When Kane came on, we had two CMs who are comfortable in possession and want to play with intensity and play forward passes.

Of course, Duff’s preferred system has worked in some games - for example Peterborough and Bolton away, so maybe suits us when the opposition are the home team and have that pressure to take the game to us and not just sit back. Even Rotherham away, when we didn’t play well, we did create good chances in the first half.

At home though, when onus on us to impose ourselves, then I think we are easy to defend against and susceptible to the counter. I think Duff needs to find more than one system so we can flex depending on each match and its individual circumstances.

For what it is worth, with it being a home match tomorrow and a chance to take the game to them, I would go with the following line-up in a 4231 formation:

Nicholls

Spencer
Lees
Helik
Lonwijk

Hodge
Kane

Marshall
Wiles
Koroma

Ladapo

UTT

Nice idea but won't happen as that is not the formation Duff plays and he is firmly set on his style of play.....

[pauldaltonsboots]

Good to see Kane and Hodge starting last night but the game played out like it did on Saturday, which again highlights the tactics/system is the issue.

[blueray4]

The problem is we can’t play with 3 in midfield, we are getting overrun. When the opposition mark the wing backs out of the game we can’t play. We could have 10 strikers up top & still not get the ball to them if we don’t control the middle, that’s why I’m shocked he didn’t go 442 last night, & changed to 433 instead. That was pointless.

[pauldaltonsboots]

Sept 25, 2024 8:25:27 GMT 1 blueray4 said:

The problem is we can’t play with 3 in midfield, we are getting overrun. When the opposition mark the wing backs out of the game we can’t play. We could have 10 strikers up top & still not get the ball to them if we don’t control the middle, that’s why I’m shocked he didn’t go 442 last night, & changed to 443 instead. That was pointless.

It is why 343 is more popular than 352 now with coaches that like to play a back 3.

Without the ball if only one wide player either side of the pitch (wingbacks) and two strikers, then means our two advanced ‘centre’ mids end up having to close down out wide - leaves huge hole in middle of pitch.

343 or 433 would negate this. 3 in centre mid is sufficient if they play centrally and closer together - at the moment, with and without the ball they are being asked to play miles apart

[Baby Ate My Eight Ball]

It hasn’t worked all season. Two centre mids ahead of the ball and the wing backs pushed high, suicidal without a really athletic screening DM. Evans’ yellow card last night is at the heart of one of our issues - most of our midfielders are weak in the challenge and can’t stop counter attacks.

I’d say if we’re going to keep the wing backs ahead of the ball we need Kasumu sweeping (the only athletic DM that can stop a counter attack, if he stays on his feet) and Kane to dictate play - the best player to pick a pass and not lose it to set ourselves up for an immediate counter. The issue then is we’re relying on Kasumu, currently and frequently injured.

Otherwise, we have the wing backs more cautiously behind the ball, but then what’s the point of playing wing backs - it’s a flat back 5. We then just invite the oppo on, which it sounds like happened last night.

[lossiemouthtownfan]

If played correctly 4-4-2 in this division would work a treat. Just because Man city etc come up with fancy formations doesn't mean we have to follow.

[runner76]

I keep coming back as well to the issue being midfield. From the games I have seen this season there just doesn't look to be a clear formation / strategy / 'round pegs round holes' feel to it - cannot pick out one or more players who seem to be thriving in the midfield and the system of wingbacks only works when you have 100% the right quality for it, which we don't.

Feels like success comes when you have clear positions and the right players and you can usually guess the team and positions in advance most of the time - this was 100% NOT the case last season and we were shocking and we feel to be verging on it a bit this season - unlike last season, I think we have a better manager, but something needs sorting in the middle of the park (and formation generally)

[dugnet]

Sept 25, 2024 9:41:37 GMT 1 runner76 said:

I keep coming back as well to the issue being midfield. From the games I have seen this season there just doesn't look to be a clear formation / strategy / 'round pegs round holes' feel to it - cannot pick out one or more players who seem to be thriving in the midfield and the system of wingbacks only works when you have 100% the right quality for it, which we don't.

Feels like success comes when you have clear positions and the right players and you can usually guess the team and positions in advance most of the time - this was 100% NOT the case last season and we were shocking and we feel to be verging on it a bit this season - unlike last season, I think we have a better manager, but something needs sorting in the middle of the park (and formation generally)

As pauldaltonsboots says the formation isn't working, certainly not at home - away if we sit in and break it looks more effective, so MD has to change it. He can blame the mentality of the players, and he may have a point to a degree, but out of possession we are far to easy to play against.

Duff gets paid to set the gameplan, he needs to own it. The old adage of doing the same thing and expecting different results couldn't be more apt.

[Hazza]

Having watched the last few games the majority of the problem is the midfield not working. Last night for instance, Hodge began the game by taking the ball from the back 3 or showing for balls inside from the wing backs. He then looked up and Kane and particularly Wiles were at least 30 yards away from him so the only ball was back to the CBs or our wide 0 which infinitely easier to defend than quick midfield interplay. Wiles seems to think his role is to play as an extra winger and is more often seen crossing from the by-line than showing in midfield. Kane was just as high. We ended up with a one man central midfield in the first half.

In the end, Hodge stopped showing for the ball as much and nobody had anywhere to go so the ball kept going backwards and then hoofed forwards. The two 8s, whoever they are need to play closer to the 6. Then we can build play. I think Duff alluded to it when he said players did not do as they were told. I can't believe he's telling both of them to play so high

[boooothy]

Bristol fans seemed to think Evans was a world beater. From what i can make out he had sod all defensive duties.

I’d rather chose between Evans or Wiles with 2 more defensive midfielders. Keep the wing backs even higher and tell the left and right centre halves they have to cover more ground.

Having said all that right now i’d rather drop Sorensen, play Turton in a 4

[rocky]

Sept 22, 2024 9:38:35 GMT 1 Paphos Terrier said:

What's happened to Tom Lorpenda who looked head and shoulders our best midfielder in that cup game he's just vanished unless injured. We also need Kasumu and Miller back asap.
I just don't like our midfield of Hogg, Wiles and Evans hiding on a football pitch.

Wiles and Evans get way too much stick on here. Hiding? Wiles has 3 goals in 7 games and Evans has 2. Between them, they're responsible for almost half the league goals this season, that's as many as ALL the strikers combined. Hardly smacks of hiding does it? Both these lads are capable of 10 goals from midfield this season, a figure that has only been achieved on ONE occasion by ANY striker (Ward) since Grant left.

Time to give them a break. That said, I don't think Duff is getting as much out of them as he should, probably due to his tactics. They are both very decent at this level though.

[Terriersmad]

There are two issues: shape and personnel.

The latter isn’t because they’re bad players. Individually, each is technically good and has a range of attributes. Collectively, however, they lack physicality. Someone commented on the Evans booking - he’s the biggest of our midfielders but lacks pace. Otherwise, we have players who all lack that height and weight. Not a technical issue - looking out our personnel, they’re technically as good as any in the division - but other sides also have that physical side to them which offsets where they have a technical weakness and gives an advantage where they’re technically equal.

Shape is a huge problem. They’re isolated. 30-40 yards apart at all times. You can be a world-beater, but if they have nobody to play with then they will look bobbins. I would really tighten them up. Rather than one at the base and two pushing on, I’d want two at the base - 15-20 yards apart - and one at the tip, Jacko-style. Wiles as the Schofield.

[Paphos Terrier]

Sept 26, 2024 12:12:27 GMT 1 rocky said:

Sept 22, 2024 9:38:35 GMT 1 Paphos Terrier said:

What's happened to Tom Lorpenda who looked head and shoulders our best midfielder in that cup game he's just vanished unless injured. We also need Kasumu and Miller back asap.
I just don't like our midfield of Hogg, Wiles and Evans hiding on a football pitch.

Wiles and Evans get way too much stick on here. Hiding? Wiles has 3 goals in 7 games and Evans has 2. Between them, they're responsible for almost half the league goals this season, that's as many as ALL the strikers combined. Hardly smacks of hiding does it? Both these lads are capable of 10 goals from midfield this season, a figure that has only been achieved on ONE occasion by ANY striker (Ward) since Grant left.

Time to give them a break. That said, I don't think Duff is getting as much out of them as he should, probably due to his tactics. They are both very decent at this level though.

Glennon said at the stroke of half time, " Wiles has touched the ball once all half" maybe more than once but like he was saying where's he been.
We used to say to someone who hadn't been in the game first ten "get into the game" where's Hogg the so called General.
The three are the slowest midfield we've had for ages and the mistakes that have lead to goals from them you need to highlight.
Hogg was finished 3 years ago.
Wiles had a terrible season last year, with the cracks starting to show once again.
Evans, I think can come good with Kasumu, Miller, Hodge, Kane when fit, Lorprnda.
Wiles and Hogg, sorry not for me.