3-5-2

[harris]

The obsession with this formation in recent years is doing my head in…

Why do we need 5 defenders on the pitch in league one when, pound for pound, our players are better than the majority of teams?

Are there any really successful teams playing this formation out there at the moment? Can’t think of any.

Killed us under Moore and Breitenreiter last season. Killing us this season. Players look lost, a few are being shoehorned into uncomfortable positions/roles in the team and it’s obvious.

As soon as we went to 433 we looked 10x better. Hope if nothing else that tonight is the watershed moment where we move to something different.

[pterrier]

Sept 24, 2024 23:40:17 GMT 1 harris said:

The obsession with this formation in recent years is doing my head in…

Why do we need 5 defenders on the pitch in league one when, pound for pound, our players are better than the majority of teams?

Are there any really successful teams playing this formation out there at the moment? Can’t think of any.

Killed us under Moore and Breitenreiter last season. Killing us this season. Players look lost, a few are being shoehorned into uncomfortable positions/roles in the team and it’s obvious.

As soon as we went to 433 we looked 10x better. Hope if nothing else that tonight is the watershed moment where we move to something different.

Worryingly duff thinks it’s ’nothing To do with the formation’

[rougeboy31]

Thing is that it’s not even a proper 352 when there’s about 40 yards of space between hodge and Kane and wiles. I’ve never liked it because teams rarely have the players for it. And if you look at most of the best teams in the world it’s not a popular formation. Inter probably have closest to it but don’t throw both wingbacks forward at once as well as having an attacking centre back and a world class defensive midfielder who can spread the ball. I think Kane would’ve been better in hodges position tonight. Can’t run but can spread it about and create.

[harris]

Sept 24, 2024 23:42:34 GMT 1 pterrier said:

Sept 24, 2024 23:40:17 GMT 1 harris said:

The obsession with this formation in recent years is doing my head in…

Why do we need 5 defenders on the pitch in league one when, pound for pound, our players are better than the majority of teams?

Are there any really successful teams playing this formation out there at the moment? Can’t think of any.

Killed us under Moore and Breitenreiter last season. Killing us this season. Players look lost, a few are being shoehorned into uncomfortable positions/roles in the team and it’s obvious.

As soon as we went to 433 we looked 10x better. Hope if nothing else that tonight is the watershed moment where we move to something different.

Worryingly duff thinks it’s ’nothing To do with the formation’

Honestly don’t know where we benefit in any position on the pitch in a 352. Strikers are isolated, central midfield is outnumbered because two of them play out wide, defenders are overloaded as soon as a ball is played long. The only place we’ve remotely looked creative is through the wingbacks but that’s gone now opposition teams have worked out how to stifle them.

[heycarpet]

Yup, we absolutely need to go 4-3-3 or a variant of that formation, 4-3-1-2 etc. It’s not working atm. We looked better in both of the last two games after switching up formation, whether that was down to other factors or not who knows but Duffs persistence so far needs to stop. Still very early on in the season so now’s the time to start a game or two with a new system.

[rougeboy31]

Sept 24, 2024 23:50:28 GMT 1 heycarpet said:

Yup, we absolutely need to go 4-3-3 or a variant of that formation, 4-3-1-2 etc. It’s not working atm. We looked better in both of the last two games after switching up formation, whether that was down to other factors or not who knows but Duffs persistence so far needs to stop. Still very early on in the season so now’s the time to start a game or two with a new system.

I’d say I’d like a 4-1-2-3 with the one dropping back when needed and one of the wingers going central when it’s on the other wing.

[soapystevens]

Sept 24, 2024 23:42:34 GMT 1 pterrier said:

Sept 24, 2024 23:40:17 GMT 1 harris said:

The obsession with this formation in recent years is doing my head in…

Why do we need 5 defenders on the pitch in league one when, pound for pound, our players are better than the majority of teams?

Are there any really successful teams playing this formation out there at the moment? Can’t think of any.

Killed us under Moore and Breitenreiter last season. Killing us this season. Players look lost, a few are being shoehorned into uncomfortable positions/roles in the team and it’s obvious.

As soon as we went to 433 we looked 10x better. Hope if nothing else that tonight is the watershed moment where we move to something different.

Worryingly duff thinks it’s ’nothing To do with the formation’

 That is a worry, everyone else can see it.

[iangreaves]

I think the players we have suit a back four. I think the early results disguised the fact performances have been iffy all season. Both Shrewsbury and Stevenage passed up decent chances to get results from us.

[royrace]

Sept 24, 2024 23:42:34 GMT 1 pterrier said:

Sept 24, 2024 23:40:17 GMT 1 harris said:

The obsession with this formation in recent years is doing my head in…

Why do we need 5 defenders on the pitch in league one when, pound for pound, our players are better than the majority of teams?

Are there any really successful teams playing this formation out there at the moment? Can’t think of any.

Killed us under Moore and Breitenreiter last season. Killing us this season. Players look lost, a few are being shoehorned into uncomfortable positions/roles in the team and it’s obvious.

As soon as we went to 433 we looked 10x better. Hope if nothing else that tonight is the watershed moment where we move to something different.

Worryingly duff thinks it’s ’nothing To do with the formation’

I guess if it's all you know, you're gonna say that. Feels a crazy approach and open to exploitation with no come back. I do prefer 4231 which wouldn't necessarily need the wingers we don't have.

[dugnet]

The formation isn't working, especially when we have to take the game to the opposition i.e. at home.

I felt so sorry for Hodge last night he was essentially a one man midfield. The right (Kane) and left (Wiles) midfield get lost in a no mans land where they are pretty much out of the game.

It worked at Bolton as we sat a bit deeper and where more compact, this was helped as Bolton fell apart after the 2nd goal.

Duff became entrenched at Swansea and it cost him his job. He can't change the players he has, he might consider one or two different ones e.g. Iorpenda, but he has to find a way of winning games of football in this league. Both Northampton and Blackpool must have shown him, or you would hope they did, we are far too easy to play against at the moment.

If he persists and things don't improve he will be another manager who failed at HTAFC. I think he has more about him than that, unless he thinks the culture at the club requires more drastic surgery (that is another debate away from tactics).

[Sparrow]

3-5-2 works well when the Wing Backs are on top form and are making a genuine 5 in midfield, allowing the CM's to stay central. Far too often last night the wing backs we in a back 5 and 2 of the CM's we're wide, leaving nothing in the middle.

Sorrenson is bang out of form and probably needs dropping.

We'd be better going to a 4-3-3 at the moment

[ambryboy]

Mr Duff, please take note...

[figo]

I've said for a while, we only have one player who genuinely suits 3-5-2, and he is bang out of form - Sorenson. All our midfielders are suited to being one of the central 2 in a 4. Wiles, Kane, Evans, when asked to play either side of Hogg are lost. can't get into the game at all. Constantly exposed for lack of pace, due to them not being quick wide (ish) players, and stretched due to us being wide open.
I watched our very promising Tom Iorpenda the other week in the cup match, he looked excellent until our more regular midfield came on, he was shifted slightly wider, and hardly got another kick.
Play 4-4-2,
our two strongest centre halves, a left back Ruffles/Headley/Lonwijk, (not great options, but it least it's their actual position (Lonwijk usually more central I agree)) right back Spencer/Turton. Midfield Hogg/Hodge with one of Evans/Wiles/Kane/Iorpenda as the central 2. left side Miller/Koroma/Marshall right side Sorenson/Spencer any 2 up top..... no idea who, but 2 out of 5....
Obviously can't play Koroma left and central, my point being he (as are Spencer and Sorenson on the right) is an option to play either (not both!!).
4-4-2 - in my view - suits 95% of our squad....FIGO

[Kirchenglocken]

A back 4 has been used during the last 2 games. If the players are miles off it and completely unorganised they will be exposed.

The same type of attacks have come our way all season yet we shut out the majority and looked comfortable until recently.

[Mastercracker]

Ignore the numbers, but this is how I would expect us to broadly look out of possession or when building from the back in a 532



However we seem to end up looking like this



Doesn't need someone off sky sports to start drawing some lines to highlight the problem. There's a massive vacant area in midfield where the opposition midfield are operating in acres of space and either controlling the game like last night, or countering into/picking up second balls in then breaking on us with 4/5/6 players out of the game.

If anything its too attack minded and therefore not controlling the game rather than too defensive IMO. Attacking moves break down before they've begun.

[rougeboy31]

Sept 25, 2024 15:28:51 GMT 1 Mastercracker said:

Ignore the numbers, but this is how I would expect us to broadly look out of possession or when building from the back in a 532



However we seem to end up looking like this



Doesn't need someone off sky sports to start drawing some lines to highlight the problem. There's a massive vacant area in midfield where the opposition midfield are operating in acres of space and either controlling the game like last night, or countering into/picking up second balls in then breaking on us with 4/5/6 players out of the game.

If anything its too attack minded and therefore not controlling the game rather than too defensive IMO. Attacking moves break down before they've begun.

Looks like a stingray

[townarentbest]

^this.

Even more space to exploit given the number 8 in your diagram is being forced even deeper.

And what do we expect your number 5 to do when he gets the ball? It doesnt matter if its Hogg, Hodge or Rodri, the options are either going to be a pass to a defender or throw something forward that will get intercepted or is difficult to protect.

[Baby Ate My Eight Ball]

Sept 25, 2024 15:28:51 GMT 1 Mastercracker said:

Ignore the numbers, but this is how I would expect us to broadly look out of possession or when building from the back in a 532

Doesn't need someone off sky sports to start drawing some lines to highlight the problem. There's a massive vacant area in midfield where the opposition midfield are operating in acres of space and either controlling the game like last night, or countering into/picking up second balls in then breaking on us with 4/5/6 players out of the game.

If anything its too attack minded and therefore not controlling the game rather than too defensive IMO. Attacking moves break down before they've begun.

Also far easier to keep the ball when you’re playing 10 yard passes to lads facing forward and moving, than playing 30 yard balls to players tightly marked with their back to goal.

Also means the oppo don’t have as much time to get close to the receiver, more opportunity for playing the ball into space, 1-2s etc.

Should be extremely basic stuff to professional players and managers.

[pterrier]

Really good thread is this, full of insightful posts and no hot air, just cold hard tactical facts. I concur with the poster who said it’s worrying that Duff can’t see this. I’d like to add, it’s even more worrying that he blames poor performances on us having a soft underbelly. Such a cowardly thing to say, oh it’s not my tactics it’s the players mentalities. Well Michael, I think my mentality would be shot if I was forced to play in this system as well.

[Million Dollar Babies]

Duff has spent all pre season drilling this 352 in to them. He simply won't turn his back on it.

[bells ringing :)]

Sept 25, 2024 19:36:22 GMT 1 Million Dollar Babies said:

Duff has spent all pre season drilling this 352 in to them. He simply won't turn his back on it.

He said we played 3 systems last night, did anyone notice any difference ? I think what he will say is we don't play 3-5-2 , we play 3-1-4-2 . Whatever we are playing , the width to the game is poor, it is not helping the pressing of opposition and our back 3 just can't play 3 at the back.

[bentley316]

I think the biggest problem at the minute is we don't have any ball carriers, the way we are playing you need someone to link the midfield.

A Kasumu/O Brien/Holmes type in there carrying the ball forward closer to Evans/Wiles would make a massive difference.

[philstarbuckscoffee]

I don’t think it is any coincidence that we have looked better away from home.

Perhaps 352 will work adequately away from home when the onus is on the home team and we can spoil, counter and then build into the game as it goes on.

But the current system and more importantly how we play within it doesn’t seem to suit possession and aid breaking down teams who come to ours and are prepared to sit deeper and launch balls into the gaps left behind the wing backs.

Would like to see a change for the next home game

[andre2000]

Sept 25, 2024 20:12:34 GMT 1 bells ringing :) said:

Sept 25, 2024 19:36:22 GMT 1 Million Dollar Babies said:

Duff has spent all pre season drilling this 352 in to them. He simply won't turn his back on it.

He said we played 3 systems last night, did anyone notice any difference ? I think what he will say is we don't play 3-5-2 , we play 3-1-4-2 . Whatever we are playing , the width to the game is poor, it is not helping the pressing of opposition and our back 3 just can't play 3 at the back.

He might have thought it was 3-5-2 but from where I was sitting it was mainly 5-3-2. Back to last season sitting back hoping to get to half time at nil/nil. 

[richhtfc]

The @ahttc Reading preview is a good listen on this open.spotify.com/episode/2q7vzaomiuUBLe9dgpsUzV?si=82AkVeFWTFGuFFaQhhAf6g&t=3052

[28901]

352 532
Mooreball.
We have proper fullbacks that would fit in a back 4 in Turton and Ruffles and Spencer.
Bring back Thomas on the right, Miller or Koroma on the left, perm any 2 central defenders, any 2 midfieldersand any 2 strikers from the rest of the squad.
442 is the way forward. Enough of these fancy formations.

[bells ringing :)]

Sept 27, 2024 21:49:24 GMT 1 andre2000 said:

Sept 25, 2024 20:12:34 GMT 1 bells ringing :) said:

He said we played 3 systems last night, did anyone notice any difference ? I think what he will say is we don't play 3-5-2 , we play 3-1-4-2 . Whatever we are playing , the width to the game is poor, it is not helping the pressing of opposition and our back 3 just can't play 3 at the back.

He might have thought it was 3-5-2 but from where I was sitting it was mainly 5-3-2. Back to last season sitting back hoping to get to half time at nil/nil. 

Totally agree, it is only a 3-5-2 when your wing backs get high in the pressing to shut off angles and force the oppisition to go long. But the back 3 can't go as high as we do in accordance to this.

[dezzly]

Some ifs and buts here to come however I’ll roll with it anyway as I’m bored shitless at work.
If(iv started with an if) Bojan can get up to match fitness fairly soon and also herbie Kane do we think moving to a 3-4-3 maybe the way we end up going?
Bojan to me would suit a 3 over a 2,he could be the central link man with others doing the pressing and running in behind.
Playing 2 centrally in midfield I know would leave many players surplus however I think a 2 would be less complicated maybe?
It shifts into a 4-4-2 out of possession of a press is beaten fairly easily with one wing back dropping into the 4 and a centre half shifting across depending on which side the ball is.
I’d think the two wider in the 3 would have to be fairly narrow to give wing backs room to press forward so we’d have plenty of attacking threat in and around the box.
I think koroma and Marshall could do those jobs in the short term and another if…if we get Taylor in January he could add more quality and finishing to that.
Defensively I know we’re short currently but again a slight if,with Helik back him and Nigel plus one other l,if balker could get fit that would be on paper a nice 3!
Midfield would be a quandary but I’d be going for one of Kane,evans or hodge alongside one of Kasumu,Hogg and hodge.
Seems harsh on wiles but I don’t think he’d suit a midfield 2.
I just think it could add more attacking impetus higher up the pitch with more bodies up there whilst also creating more bodies to press high.Just a thought anyway from someone who’s extremely bored!

[dezzly]

Happy to be proved wrong and that with some tweaks the 3-5-2 can work for us.UTT

[dugnet]

Oct 10, 2024 8:40:42 GMT 1 dezzly said:

Happy to be proved wrong and that with some tweaks the 3-5-2 can work for us.UTT

I am so happy to see him tweak things and the last two performances, irrespective of the weakness of the opposition, have looked much better. We don't look light in midfield and it has been helped by getting pace into the back three.

However, and I am being a pedant for no other reason that I can, is it a 3-5-2 or is it 3-4-1-2 or even 5-2-1-2?

Whatever it looks more solid and, carries threat and a big step forward on the Shrewsbury, Rotherham, Northampton, Blackpool and Reading games.

If the key personnel can stay fit (noting I would like to see Iorpenda integrated into the team more) and confidence builds the optimism created at Peterborough will return.

I will be delighted if that is the case because MD has carried himself very well in these past few weeks.

I suppose we should have expected a bumpy ride after so much decline. It will probably be more bumpy in the weeks and months to come but hopefully with more improved performances than not.