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Post by BoltonTerrier on Oct 20, 2011 13:50:43 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 14:38:51 GMT 1
There's no doubting that the Taylor report changed football in this country drastically, and some would say too much and that it's now time to review some of the laws - but reading the Bradford fire victim's comments it's pretty harrowing him saying that if there was the fencing and barriers at VP like at Hillsborough it would have been drastically worse. Also they are our rivals and I know we have lots of respect for the events of that day, but imagine losing that many family members in one day at one match.
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Post by champ on Oct 20, 2011 14:47:10 GMT 1
It seems like that bloke just wants to distance himself from the tragedy and was hoping it would blow under the carpet years ago, he wouldn't make such ridiculous comments if it was members of his family that died in such circumstances. Complete chopper.
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Post by terracesider on Oct 20, 2011 20:36:18 GMT 1
I must admit to getting quite peed off with Lord Justice Taylor on a significant number of occasions as I put the responsibility on him for my having to sit down at matches.....
However; a few years ago, after reading Mr Conn's excellent book, I took the trouble to read the Taylor report. This, of course, totally removes blame from the Liverpool supporters for the events of that miserable day. Studying the detail of the report made me a convert to the concept of all-seater stadia and consequent proper crowd organisation, if anyone has any doubts obtain a copy and have read.....
As for Mr Justice Popplewell - what a pr1ck! Why not just keep his half-baked opinions to himself rather than writing letters to the Times? While on the subject of keeping away from possible controversy perhaps that rather limited "comedian" Ricky Gervaise could follow a similar philosophy.
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Post by Captainslapper on Oct 20, 2011 20:57:03 GMT 1
Studying the detail of the report made me a convert to the concept of all-seater stadia and consequent proper crowd organisation, if anyone has any doubts obtain a copy and have read..... . Personally think you can have proper crowd organisation without the need for all seater stadium myself. In the case of Hillsborough, that section of terracing was an accident waiting to happen and thered been many instances of crushes before. Its a wonder it took until 1989 for a disaster to happen at that end of the stadium. Lessons could have been learned and any necessary alterations taken to existing terracing to make them safe. Think what happened ( everyone with all seater stadiums) was the usual OTT, sledgehammer to crack a nut, response we tend to do in this country. |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Oct 20, 2011 21:11:05 GMT 1
I can't say it any better than captainslapper.
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Post by TerrierArmy on Oct 20, 2011 21:14:03 GMT 1
Studying the detail of the report made me a convert to the concept of all-seater stadia and consequent proper crowd organisation, if anyone has any doubts obtain a copy and have read..... . Personally think you can have proper crowd organisation without the need for all seater stadium myself. In the case of Hillsborough, that section of terracing was an accident waiting to happen and thered been many instances of crushes before. I can't remember the exact game but in the early 80s there was another semi final there and the fans had to escape onto the pitch due to a huge crush. The difference between this and Hillsborough was that the fans simply could not escape. |
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Post by aksaiblue on Oct 20, 2011 21:18:52 GMT 1
I didn't realise until I read the article how little Popplewell did, not only for the families of the Bradford fans but for football in general. Great reporting highlighting the deficiencies of Popplewells approach to lessons learned from the Bradford disaster
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Post by terracesider on Oct 20, 2011 21:42:31 GMT 1
Studying the detail of the report made me a convert to the concept of all-seater stadia and consequent proper crowd organisation, if anyone has any doubts obtain a copy and have read..... . "Personally think you can have proper crowd organisation without the need for all seater stadium myself." Agree with that completely - but after 3 major disasters in a very few years at ancient football grounds the lawmakers had to do SOMETHING decisive.... And - given the choice of any risk (however small) of a repeat of any of those or having to sit on my arse at games for the remainder of my life - I'll take callouses on the rear end. Pity because it was much more preferable to stand which I enjoyed for the first twenty-odd years of my supporting "career" |
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Post by Captainslapper on Oct 20, 2011 23:44:23 GMT 1
Personally think you can have proper crowd organisation without the need for all seater stadium myself. In the case of Hillsborough, that section of terracing was an accident waiting to happen and thered been many instances of crushes before. I can't remember the exact game but in the early 80s there was another semi final there and the fans had to escape onto the pitch due to a huge crush. The difference between this and Hillsborough was that the fans simply could not escape. Theres were a few pretty well known crushes in that end prior to the disaster plus many other lesser incidents. Wolves v Spurs FA cup semi in 81 and a Sheff Weds v Everton cup game around 1986 are 2 Ive heard about anyway where the middle section got so dangerously overcrowded people were being injured in the crush. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Oct 21, 2011 0:04:01 GMT 1
Studying the detail of the report made me a convert to the concept of all-seater stadia and consequent proper crowd organisation, if anyone has any doubts obtain a copy and have read..... . "Personally think you can have proper crowd organisation without the need for all seater stadium myself." Agree with that completely - but after 3 major disasters in a very few years at ancient football grounds the lawmakers had to do SOMETHING decisive.... And - given the choice of any risk (however small) of a repeat of any of those or having to sit on my arse at games for the remainder of my life - I'll take callouses on the rear end. Pity because it was much more preferable to stand which I enjoyed for the first twenty-odd years of my supporting "career" Think IMO its a case of the difference between an unacceptable risk and an acceptable risk. That end of Hillsborough was clearly an unacceptable one and there was plenty of anecdotal evidence prior to '89 to back that up. But did that make all the other terracing in the country unsafe? Or an unacceptable risk? 10 of 1000s of games must have taken place without a similar disaster happening on all those terraces, going right back to a post war crush at a Bolton game. My view is that provided there was a review of all other terracing to make sure crowds were funnelled safely and evenly and that adequate controls on the numbers of fans admitted were in place, then keeping standing as an option at all grounds would have been an acceptable risk. I agree the lawmakers had to be seen to do something and in a way they did what was needed anyway, regardless of the seating issue. They took down the cages, policed games properly and stopped treating all football fans like scum of the earth. |
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Post by OperationPig on Oct 21, 2011 0:42:49 GMT 1
Studying the detail of the report made me a convert to the concept of all-seater stadia and consequent proper crowd organisation, if anyone has any doubts obtain a copy and have read..... . Personally think you can have proper crowd organisation without the need for all seater stadium myself. In the case of Hillsborough, that section of terracing was an accident waiting to happen and thered been many instances of crushes before. Its a wonder it took until 1989 for a disaster to happen at that end of the stadium. Lessons could have been learned and any necessary alterations taken to existing terracing to make them safe. Think what happened ( everyone with all seater stadiums) was the usual OTT, sledgehammer to crack a nut, response we tend to do in this country. It was that Spurs v Wolves game but I honestly don't think Hillsborough alone was the problem, there has been crushes at quite a few places and funnily enough the worst crush I've been in was Sheff United away in a pre-season friendly!! (think it was 89/90) and believe me I was very worried at the time, I also remember going to Derby Co away, again late 80's, Ipswich in 1990 where about 300 Wednesday fans had to climb over the fence because of a crush developing. What I'm saying is that it really could of happened anywhere and the fences magnified the problem a 100% because back then they kept you in. Unfortunately it happened at our place and that will live with Us and Hillsborough forever. |
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Post by 3Pipe on Oct 21, 2011 0:50:00 GMT 1
The German model, in particular Borussia Dortmund, has shown how successful safe standing areas can be.
Can't see it happening though, not for a long long time.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Oct 21, 2011 6:40:24 GMT 1
Studying the detail of the report made me a convert to the concept of all-seater stadia and consequent proper crowd organisation, if anyone has any doubts obtain a copy and have read..... . "Personally think you can have proper crowd organisation without the need for all seater stadium myself." Agree with that completely - but after 3 major disasters in a very few years at ancient football grounds the lawmakers had to do SOMETHING decisive.... And - given the choice of any risk (however small) of a repeat of any of those or having to sit on my arse at games for the remainder of my life - I'll take callouses on the rear end. Pity because it was much more preferable to stand which I enjoyed for the first twenty-odd years of my supporting "career" Of course after so many deaths the authorities had to do SOMETHING. But to my mind the response was not reasonable and commensurate with the problem in hand. Following Bradford, for example, there was no suggestion that stadia become "all standing". At a previous FA cup semi i stood in Leppings Lane central getting crushed whilst the wing terraces were half full. Whilst sitting in the Bradford stand (watching town) i had looked down through the cracks in the wooden floors and seen piles of rubbish which had built up over the years.. Both accidents waiting to happen. And all to do with planning, common sense and people doing their jobs properly. Nothing to do with "standing" or "sitting" .. Football was all so quick to embrace the new "safety" measures. But it would be wouldn't it.. Clubs could apply for safety grants and charge double for tickets. They were coining it in. |
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Post by 3Pipe on Oct 21, 2011 13:43:24 GMT 1
Bang on Ted.
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Post by BLUE&WHITE on Oct 21, 2011 13:59:57 GMT 1
What an excellent article.
I am always continuously impressed by David Conns investigations & following reports.
They really come across unbaised and with a real 'honest & genuine' point of view.
Thank You and Well Done :appl:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2011 14:51:46 GMT 1
What an excellent article. I am always continuously impressed by David Conns investigations & following reports. They really come across unbaised and with a real 'honest & genuine' point of view. Thank You and Well Done  He is a superb sports journalist. The Guardian sports section is generally excellent. If they only didi a little more lower league coverage and a few less 'Arsenal in crisis' articles. Their comment section is often ruined by the deep hatred many Guardian readers have for each other but their 'Joy of 6' series, 'Classis Youtube' and (my favourite) the 'Rumour Mill' make amends. For me it's the best online sports section, but still slightly behind the Torygraph's in paper format (just bin the main section). Todays rumours: www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/oct/21/football-transfer-rumours-tevez-to-corinthians |
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Post by johnny_b on Oct 21, 2011 15:56:12 GMT 1
What an excellent article. I am always continuously impressed by David Conns investigations & following reports. They really come across unbaised and with a real 'honest & genuine' point of view. Thank You and Well Done He is a superb sports journalist. The Guardian sports section is generally excellent. If they only didi a little more lower league coverage and a few less 'Arsenal in crisis' articles. Their comment section is often ruined by the deep hatred many Guardian readers have for each other but their 'Joy of 6' series, 'Classis Youtube' and (my favourite) the 'Rumour Mill' make amends. For me it's the best online sports section, but still slightly behind the Torygraph's in paper format (just bin the main section). Todays rumours: www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/oct/21/football-transfer-rumours-tevez-to-corinthiansI light the fire with the main section of the Groniad, can't do with all left wing bullshit.The jobs section used to be handy for putting on the bottom of the Guinea pig hutch under the hay but thanks to the belated cuts in the public sector it's barely big enough to wipe my arse on these days.The Sports section is quite good and the Travel section often excellent but it's worth buying really just for the Guide which stays on the sofa all week. Be a shame when it stops being printed and goes online only. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Oct 21, 2011 19:27:08 GMT 1
I stopped buying the Guardian as soon as they stopped advertising for Assistant Co-Ordinator Ethnic Diversity Officers on £80k pa.
I had my heart set on such a vital role.
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Post by OperationPig on Oct 21, 2011 22:40:30 GMT 1
Personally think you can have proper crowd organisation without the need for all seater stadium myself. In the case of Hillsborough, that section of terracing was an accident waiting to happen and thered been many instances of crushes before. Its a wonder it took until 1989 for a disaster to happen at that end of the stadium. Lessons could have been learned and any necessary alterations taken to existing terracing to make them safe. Think what happened ( everyone with all seater stadiums) was the usual OTT, sledgehammer to crack a nut, response we tend to do in this country. It was that Spurs v Wolves game but I honestly don't think Hillsborough alone was the problem, there has been crushes at quite a few places and funnily enough the worst crush I've been in was Sheff United away in a pre-season friendly!! (think it was 89/90) and believe me I was very worried at the time, I also remember going to Derby Co away, again late 80's, Ipswich in 1990 where about 300 Wednesday fans had to climb over the fence because of a crush developing. What I'm saying is that it really could of happened anywhere and the fences magnified the problem a 100% because back then they kept you in. Unfortunately it happened at our place and that will live with Us and Hillsborough forever. Typical Example here, |
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