brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 16, 2011 11:17:40 GMT 1
I may need to keep adding that I am fundamentally anti Euro, but broadly pro EU, largely because of tax harmonisation issues. I don't believe that levels of taxation can be the same across Europe. However, federalisation of Europe can work if it is done properly on a region basis rather than a nation basis. Somewhere like Cornwall for example has far more in common with southern Italy than with London.
However, while the EU exists in the state it does, we need to keep fully engaging and Cameron threw his toys out of the pram about nothing. They weren't even discussing the transaction tax, so Camerons 'veto' is irrelevant.
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ab
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Post by ab on Dec 16, 2011 11:41:42 GMT 1
Eh?
Cornwall has bugger all in common with Southern Italy. I reckon Cornwall would do rather better out of ditching the Common Fisheries Policy and letting the horrible government in London send out warships to keep Spanish trawlers out than the pittance of UK money that the EU allows the UK to have back to spend on regeneration projects which are deliberately intended not to let us give Cornwall an unfair advantage over Southern Italy et al.
Quite why you would rather have the EU do this than to campaign for say a Labour government that had ditched the EU to do stuff in the interests of the UK like investing in Cornwall without worrying about whether it might give it a head start over Sicily I don't really know.
Anyhow, with the Observer status that the UK is getting in the Treaty negotiations we'll have pretty much exactly the same level of influence as if we were looking to sign up to it ourselves. We'll be at the table and get a chance to put our views. Having actually done the job of being in Brussels legislative negotiations I don't think there'll be much difference. Back when I did that job we had the EFTA states and Finland, which was about to join, round the table and each got a say and was listened to. They just didn't get a vote and weren't able to bang on the table to say "delete that clause or we won't sign up". As it seems to be a terrible faux pas to suggest anyone should ever do the latter, what difference is there really?
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Dec 16, 2011 12:11:02 GMT 1
Bry-spy, seriously, you're not making any sense at all.
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Dec 16, 2011 12:42:37 GMT 1
However, federalisation of Europe can work if it is done properly on a region basis rather than a nation basis. Somewhere like Cornwall for example has far more in common with southern Italy than with London. This is one of the most mental things I've read in a while. Federalisation works *because* it brings together different regions (although quite how similar Cornwall and Southern Italy really are I'm not sure.) The US works because the strong states can subsidise the weak and the whole is strong. If they just paired up similar regions they'd probably end up with a strong nation on the coasts bounding a weak, agriculture-driven centre.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 16, 2011 12:45:41 GMT 1
Because I don't agree? I said comparitively. Cornwall has sod all in common with London economically.
If we walked out of the EU now we would be buggered. The anti-EU brigade seem to think that we still have some kind of empire with whom we could trade. That is if we still made lots and lots of thing which we don't.
It's not that difficult Bernie. I believe that Cameron throwing his toys out of the pram last week was shocking behaviour and put us in a potentially worse position. Getting 'observer' status, but with no decision making powers is still no good. If he'd stayed at the table we'd still be talking now and changing the proposals, but we aren't and can't.
The Czecks and Hungarians did it the right way. Say they would refer it to their parliaments and now raise issues about the viability of the proposals.
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Dec 16, 2011 13:09:41 GMT 1
It's debatable as to whether or not the US actually works....they are in the same shit street that the EU is in. The only way out is for every country to start balancing it's books and to wake up to the realistation that life is not one fuck off wonderland where money grows on trees. There are various tactics that the UK can employ and being in or out of the Euro doesn't have to be the end of the world either way. I must saying being out doesn't look the horror people think it would be though. If we were more competitve then the globe might treat the UK as a flexible workforce and a place to build things....especially if the EU keeps on with its insane laws....nice but insane. Get the Chinese to buy even more Land Rovers and we will be laughing.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 16, 2011 13:19:50 GMT 1
That's not what I meant Dan. Apologies for confusion.
What I refer to is that if we are going to go down a federalised European state then nation staes should be ditched completely and regions should be given the powers of federal states. These powers should include taxation policies for each region. So Southern Italy, for example. would have the power to decide the appropriate economic policy for its region.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Dec 16, 2011 13:21:33 GMT 1
No, because you're not making any sense. I can't even work out where you don't agree as you keep throwing new weirdnesses into the mix.
If you think the Czechs and Hungarians did the right thing, then the worst you can level at Dave is that he was being a bit impolite. It seems to have put us in a better position credit-rating wise at least.
I still can't fathom why you'd prefer more cuts and no democracy to Dave's cuts and the chance of voting him out. It smacks of chopping off your nose, ears and frontal lobes in order to spite your face. Or satiate your anti-tory lizard brain-stem.
It's all quite baffling,
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Dec 16, 2011 13:51:27 GMT 1
That's not what I meant Dan. Apologies for confusion. What I refer to is that if we are going to go down a federalised European state then nation staes should be ditched completely and regions should be given the powers of federal states. These powers should include taxation policies for each region. So Southern Italy, for example. would have the power to decide the appropriate economic policy for its region. That makes more sense, though mightn't it produce too many regions to be practical? And I'm not convinced grouping together geographically distant regions would work too well either.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 16, 2011 13:56:45 GMT 1
I wouldn't group them together. Ignore that. It may well be impractical on a Europe wide basis, hence why I'm only broadly in support of the EU and not wholly.
Bernie - Why more cuts? Why less democracy?
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Dec 16, 2011 14:03:45 GMT 1
fucking hell brispo - do you even know what Cameron said 'Fuck off' to
;D ;D ;D
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Dec 16, 2011 14:07:53 GMT 1
I wouldn't group them together. Ignore that. It may well be impractical on a Europe wide basis, hence why I'm only broadly in support of the EU and not wholly. ...and this is the crux of the matter. To my mind, the EU is an all-or-nothing thing, and since "all" is unworkable the only viable option is "nothing". Anyway, isn't the main reason for the deal to convince banks / other countries that Europe is going to try really hard to be good this time and could we please have some more money? Then when we've got the cash we'll all vote socialists back in to spend it all.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 16, 2011 14:54:36 GMT 1
You might be right there Dan.
That's the point Merkin. Cameron didn't say fuck off to anything. Lets use a comparable imaginery meeting that I am going to make up on the spot:
26 players from the Stoke City squad, including Tony Pulis are sat around awaiting for the start of a team meeting. Rory Delap enters stage left: Tony: Come in and join us Rory. Rory: I'll only join you if you agree to stop using my throw ins as your main tactic. Tony: Well, Rory, we were actually going to discuss where to go on the Christmas party, but... Rory: That's not good enough Tony, you've got to agree to stop using my throw ins. Tony: Look ,lets just get to the discussions on the Christm.... Rory: Yes or no Tony. That's all, yes or no. Tony: I can't agree to anything here and now Rory. Rory: That's it then, I'm leaving. Rory storms out slamming the door behind him. A Stoke Sentinel reporter waits outside. The whole of Stoke is waiting for a story on whether City will ever actually start playing some good football. Reporter: RORY, RORY, any news. Rory: Yes, I've told Tony that we will no longer use the throw as the main tactic. And that.... Reporter: Thanks Rory. (makes a mobile phone call). Editor, we've got it, Rory Delap is the man that has changed Stoke City forever. Make him front page news tomorrow.
Rory Delap is feted in the local press as the man that has changed the tactics of Stoke.
The Christmas party goes ahead. A few of the players aren't sure until the last minute and whinge a bit about the choice for fancy dress, but go along in the end. Rory is 'allowed' to come along, but not drink or wear fancy dress and has to leave before the end.
THE END
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Dec 16, 2011 14:58:27 GMT 1
Bris - because, as I understand it, and I may well be well off the mark here, it allows the EU to dictate how other countries reduce their deficit, indeed dictate pretty much all economic policy. So they could say "Cut your deficit to nothing in 5 years or else" and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. Seeing as the UK's public spending is still increasing, despite frantic cuts, such a dictat could only lead to more vicious cuts. That we would be forced to do this by someone we had no say in electing, and no chance of voting out, would be a mighty kick in the ballsack of democracy.
To quote Sir Anthony Wedgewood Twistlton-Thyckenham-Tallulah-Gosh Benn:
"If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates--ask them five questions: "What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?" If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Dec 16, 2011 15:15:23 GMT 1
i think you've got it totally wrong brispo
i think it would be more like Rory turning up and being told that he is going to have his fingers and thumbs cut off but still having to hurl throw ins for the good of the team.
bernie's view is what i thought it meant to.
I'm actually in agreenace with the specific idea of Merkozy on enforcing budget cuts to those that spend too much but I'm not with the general idea of being told what to do by them on all sorts of issues. There is other stuff in there that would just hurt us too much.
Besides, Dave and George know they have to cut the deficit without being told by Merkozy who would want to make the task even harder for us if they damaged the City.
Just one big fuck off negotiation and bluffing now to see who will pay for what to stop it going under
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 16, 2011 15:44:17 GMT 1
It would only apply to countries in the Euro. This is where the confusion is being caused. Dave was concerned that somewhere along the line a clause would be inserted saying that those outside of the Euro would have to adhere to something such as a the transaction tax, but that hadn't been raised at the initial meeting. Davy wavy just wanted to posture early doors and then come back to the UK to be feted for actually gaining nothing, but losing the ability to be involved in future discussions.
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ab
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Post by ab on Dec 19, 2011 10:57:55 GMT 1
The Christmas party goes ahead. A few of the players aren't sure until the last minute and whinge a bit about the choice for fancy dress, but go along in the end. Rory is 'allowed' to come along, but not drink or wear fancy dress and has to leave before the end. THE END Next day Delap finds himself as the only first team player not to get caught up in the roasting allegations as the party got out of hand. The rest of the team gets fined 3 months wages for their behaviour and Stoke has to play its Boxing Day fixture with reserves and youth team players as everyone else is incapable. Delap gets his contract paid up on the basis of constructive dismissal and is appointed England Manager.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 19, 2011 11:26:08 GMT 1
In your dreams AB (or Merks dreams).
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ab
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Post by ab on Dec 19, 2011 11:54:12 GMT 1
I regularly dream of such things. That's why I can't use nicorette patches - the added vividness would be like being on LSD.
Anyway, it isn't as if we're actually out of the EU or anything - impressive domestic politics if nothing else by Dave in making a load of people think that we are so they stop banging on about it.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 19, 2011 12:32:43 GMT 1
...but it would actually be nice to have a mature debate about the EU in this country, but even after 30 odd years of membership we still can't. Shocking really.
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Dec 19, 2011 12:56:16 GMT 1
And we can't because the left has applied its usual "goodies v baddies" spin whereby every Eurosceptic is painted as a rabid fascist who belongs in the 19th century.
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ab
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Post by ab on Dec 19, 2011 14:54:46 GMT 1
OK brispie, tell us what you like about EU membership that the UK could not have secured had it not been a member and what it would lose were it to cease to be a member.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 19, 2011 17:52:52 GMT 1
I think the left have to accept some blame, but the largest blame surely lies with the Eurosceptic right who don't want open discussion as it deflects from their jingoistic championing of the UK.
That's the point AB. I don't really know or fully understand. I could do lots of research about trade deals and the benefits of people being able to work across the EU, but I don't have the time.
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ab
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Post by ab on Dec 19, 2011 18:51:08 GMT 1
So how do you know you are in favour? The two things you have mentioned are fundamentally unchanged in the last 15 years or so at least. They have next to nothing to do with what is being talked about now. It is not so much about championing the UK (although of course, in the context of UK politics that's the pitch to British people) but about preserving each country's ability to champion itself. Whether you think that is important is another matter - maybe it is better that we don't have much say in what goes on in our own country because we're idiots who can't be trusted with that sort of thing. Although if you think that, it is hard to see how or why you could support protests against the government asking it to do different things - there'd be no point if the people really in charge weren't ones who relied on support from us. The Greeks can protest as much as they like about austerity, but it isn't their government calling the shots on that any more. Ours still does. You might not like what they're doing about it, but you might vote someone else in to do it differently rather than having a new PM installed by administrative decision in Brussels as the Greeks and Italians just have. botzarelli.wordpress.com/2011/12/19/review-of-2011-1-yerp/
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 19, 2011 19:19:58 GMT 1
I've started above that I'm only broadly in favour. And that is mainly because I believe we should play a key role in discussing and bending it towards 'our' vision.
Most people in the UK don't know or understand what the EU is about, but listen to the right wing press to form a negative view.
The current treaty being discussed is mainly for Eurozone members, so doesn't directly impact upon us, so nothing has changed.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Dec 20, 2011 10:17:26 GMT 1
A vision that includes a fiscal union between Cornwall and Campania? I'm not quite sure who this "we" is, kimosabe.
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ab
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Post by ab on Dec 20, 2011 10:51:24 GMT 1
Well, the German foreign minister just said that he wants the UK to be a close part of the EU and for there to continue to be a prosperous City with no hidden agenda to undermine it. Seems like Cameron is getting what he was asking for without sitting at the table to negotiate it...
Sometimes not being somewhere is more eloquent than being there - think of Roy Hattersley being replaced on HIGNFY by a tub of lard or Gordon Brown not being in the signature ceremony for the Lisbon Treaty (he sneaked in round the back to sign it privately).
If the new Treaty only affects EZ members and not us, what business have we in being there? Surely the point of wanting to be in the negotiations comes from a belief that what happens to the EZ has a significant impact on the UK. You can't have it both ways and say "it was silly to flounce out and harm the UK's position" while also saying "it didn't really concern us anyway". The pre-veto French position was precisely that - butt out you're not a EZ member. Then, when we did butt out, both the French and Germans remembered that actually they rather need a bit of support from the UK more generally so going off and doing their own thing will still need them to make sure that they don't force the UK out completely. They might actually end up being more cautious in the negotiations with a view to the impact on the UK than if we'd been there to fight against because we retain the option of walking completely rather than the EU being able to say "well, you were there and in the negotiations so lump it that's what we all agreed".
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Dec 20, 2011 11:32:53 GMT 1
Most people in the UK don't know or understand what the EU is about, but listen to the right wing press to form a negative view. ... and most lefties don't know or understand what the EU is but assume that if the right wing press are against it then they must be in favour of it, even though it runs counter to their interests in so many ways.
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ab
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Post by ab on Dec 20, 2011 13:21:59 GMT 1
Most people in the UK don't know or understand what the EU is about, but listen to the right wing press to form a negative view. ... and most lefties don't know or understand what the EU is but assume that if the right wing press are against it then they must be in favour of it, even though it runs counter to their interests in so many ways. Don't, you'll make brispie cry. Even things like shutting down the coal industry were more down to Brussels than Thatcher (who just did it a little quicker and much more unpleasantly than we were obliged to). Fishing industry decimated - Common Fisheries Policy Foreign takeovers of industry (both UK businesses being bought by foreigners and RBS buying ABN Amro and near-fatally holing itself) - Free movement of capital Easy change of tax domicile - Freedom of establishment Poles taking all the jobs - Free movement of workers Collapse of Rover - illegality of further subsidy after rescue and restructuring aid didn't work End of train building in Derby - EU Public Procurement rules (and clownshoes in DfT in 2008 who didn't care about this) Inability to put more funds into regenerating the North and Midlands - Accession of poor East European countries to EU in 2004 bringing average EU per capita GDP down below level in those areas Millionaires able to make loads of money by planting forests - Common Agricultural Policy Home Information Packs - EU legislation requiring energy efficiency certificates (although hat tip to Yvette Cooper for deciding to make this even more burdensome) Difficulties for local authorities and housing associations in using public money to build new social housing - State Aid rules Delays in rolling out superfast broadband - State Aid rules Privatisation of Royal Mail - EU Postal Services Directives
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Dec 20, 2011 14:25:02 GMT 1
OK. Bernie isn't listening.
We could go in circles dan, suffice to say that mature debate isn't possible in this nation.
AB - I'm also a socialist in the proper sense of the term. National boundaries don't actually mean much to me other than lines drawn on the map by the ruling classes. I'd happily scrap all nations and merge the whole world into one giant state, but I appreciate that may be a bit extreme.
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