ab
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by ab on Mar 15, 2011 15:08:26 GMT 1
There is a slight difference in that no government is responsible for earthquakes and tsunamis whereas the governments in power over the past decade or so did have the power to manage their economies so as to make them less vulnerable to the shock of the banking crisis. Some did this, ours didn't, at least in part because, unlike c***, it believed it could turn back the tides that bring boom and bust by Third Way economics (both Keynesianism and Chicago School economics provide a way, but by suppressing booms rather than by riding them as hard as they'll go in the hope they'll never end that way).
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 15, 2011 15:25:44 GMT 1
Funny you should mention tsunamis though as Labour were warned to save for a rainy day.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Mar 15, 2011 15:43:02 GMT 1
I agree that the government of the day should have seen the imminent banking crisis coming, but they didn't and they weren't the only ones.
They have to take some of the rap for the recession, but you can't blame it on them completely.
And to use this as an excuse to slash and burn goes above and beyond what is required.
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 15, 2011 15:55:21 GMT 1
That's where some of us disagree brispie
Given that we are part of a bigger world that we cannot control, then I'd rather cut them slack for not seeing it coming rather than racking up a massive debt on 1 million or so public sector jobs and the associated fuck off pension deficit and overpriced PFI schemes that they do control.
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Post by markelt on Mar 15, 2011 16:57:46 GMT 1
And who was it who presided over the Big Bang deregulation of the financial sector?
Who introduced PFIs?
Dazzle us.
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 15, 2011 17:27:09 GMT 1
OK
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ab
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by ab on Mar 15, 2011 17:43:43 GMT 1
To be fair, while PFI was introduced by Major, IIRC the only substantial project it was used on (in typical Tory pre-devolution fashion if you like) was the Skye Bridge. That fiasco should have made it obvious that PFI was a dangerous beast and that it mainly favoured the contractor.
I've posted before that Ken Clarke said that he didn't like PFI and didn't favour using it much, also that PFI could, if Major and Clarke had wanted to focus on killing off the Labour narrative of crumbling schools and hospitals, have been used to start a big splurge on infrastructure. It would have been politically easy and cost-free (as the entirety of Labour's pledges to rebuild for the new century were explicitly based on using PFI and would have made corporate backers happy). So there's some credibility, I believe, in taking the view that they didn't want to use it. I suppose if you subscribe to the "Tories want public services to turn to shit" theory and discount the "but Tories like to shovel cash at their big business cronies and privatise public infrastructure and PFI is a big shovel" theory you could find another reason for not using PFI.
Blaming the Tories for the orgy of massively wasteful PFI spending under Labour is like blaming Britain for the Holocaust because it invented concentration camps in the Boer War or for Saddam Hussain using chemical weapons on the Kurds because that's what Churchill did 60 years previously.
Just because the level of deregulation in financial services which caused the crash was too much doesn't mean that all the deregulation before it was bad - other countries have managed to deregulate quite a long way past "Big bang" while being relatively insulated from the latest crash (eg Oz and Canada). Moving banking regulation from the Bank of England to the FSA wasn't an inevitable consequence of Big Bang - indeed the shadow Chancellor at the time described doing so as "a charter for spivs and charlatans" rather presciently in Parliament during the debates on the legislation (not to mention that this was also how the Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury responsible for steering the legislation through, Alastair Darling, viewed it while in opposition).
Global Banking Crisis - not Labour's fault. Being hit by it as hard as we were and having bank failures - at least partly their fault for having taken opposed decisions which took us down that road.
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 15, 2011 17:51:52 GMT 1
ab
you have indeed told him all that shit b4 about pfi's but the poor bloke is off his fucking tits these days.
the banking failure (whether their fault or not) is not the main reason as to why we are being hit as hard as we are.
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Post by markelt on Mar 16, 2011 6:43:45 GMT 1
merk
The problem with it all is that you are working on the basis that I am on the flip side of the argument to you. And I'm not. I don't believe Labour = good , Tory = bad. I'm not sure where you're coming from with it all. Either you just want an argument or you simply can't grasp that other people don't think like you do.
I understand the point about PFIs. When I was editor of Wilbur's favourite magazine* between 1997 and 2003, we had an editorial stance that was anti PFI. I remember interviewing Allyson Pollock on the subject early on in my tenure and my views were informed by that. It was recognised early on by people like her that it was almost invariably an accounting trick. This idea though that the Tories would not have extended its use after farces like the Skye Bridge is a bit of an elephant repellent argument. I also remember the hypocrisy of Labour ministers in rolling out PFI when the same people had been rabidly anti when in opposition.
The problem with politics is that it is full of shit. You can argue that Thatcher did this and that, but you can also argue she got lucky with the Falklands, oil revenues and managed to gloss over the complete failure of Monetarism. You can do the same with Labour. Got this right but fucked up magnificently on the Iraq War, the budget deficit and failure to regulate the banking sector.
The underlying problem is not that this party or that party is better than the other but that we are stuck with a system that promotes glossy glad handers like Tony Blair and David Cameron over more able people like Ken Clarke, that decisions are taken on a political basis and to meet the psychological needs and prejudices of politicians and in the interests of the larger corporations and vested interests led by people they have dinner with and who pay for them to be in office.
Now do one.
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 16, 2011 11:24:34 GMT 1
One of the 'things' that has always polarised opinion on this board is Thatcher and ‘how you should run a country’ - this is the crux of what this is about . It's gone on for years on here. As time passes by, the argument develops and you have more means of comparison.
I don't think I'd be exaggerating in saying that you despise the 'bitch/c***' and think she did a shit job - fair? You have been the one in the past to claim that anybody that didn't see it this way was wrong.
If you think that then so be it but you don't seem to be able to back it up with anything of note. Yes, you will moan about subsidizing one industry and not another, you will moan about he not giving a fuck about her people, letting communities suffer. To be fair though, these are just 'this and that' that you saying don't really matter - so show some consistency and make your fucking mind up.
Personally, I go for the 'this and thats don't matter’ take on things - you can talk about the general corruption, Falklands, banking or whatever you want but all that matters is the end result - of course the 'this and thats' matter to the indiviudals, but it's about the greater good. It’s the greater good/end result that we try to measure - debts, deficits, growth etc
I think you know this and that hurts you. That is why you are happy to back Dan's 'the country's fucked' approach. All of sudden, they are all c****, all it in for the themselves, as bad as each other, it's a shit system…blah de fucking blah…easier to do that than admit you were wrong.
OK!?
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Post by AndyM on Mar 16, 2011 11:31:55 GMT 1
Can't you two sort out your differences with a fist/handbag fight in the shadow of Stanley Matthew's statue?
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Post by markelt on Mar 16, 2011 11:37:15 GMT 1
One of the 'things' that has always polarised opinion on this board is Thatcher and ‘how you should run a country’ - this is the crux of what this is about . It's gone on for years on here. As time passes by, the argument develops and you have more means of comparison. I don't think I'd be exaggerating in saying that you despise the 'bitch/c***' and think she did a shit job - fair? You have been the one in the past to claim that anybody that didn't see it this way was wrong. If you think that then so be it but you don't seem to be able to back it up with anything of note. Yes, you will moan about subsidizing one industry and not another, you will moan about he not giving a fuck about her people, letting communities suffer. To be fair though, these are just 'this and that' that you saying don't really matter - so show some consistency and make your fucking mind up. Personally, I go for the 'this and thats don't matter’ take on things - you can talk about the general corruption, Falklands, banking or whatever you want but all that matters is the end result - of course the 'this and thats' matter to the indiviudals, but it's about the greater good. It’s the greater good/end result that we try to measure - debts, deficits, growth etc I think you know this and that hurts you. That is why you are happy to back Dan's 'the country's fucked' approach. All of sudden, they are all c****, all it in for the themselves, as bad as each other, it's a shit system…blah de fucking blah…easier to do that than admit you were wrong. OK!? Look Merk. It's beyond boring now. Why don't you just keep the thread going with whatever opinion of mine or anybody else's that you want to make up to argue against? It's all yours
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 16, 2011 12:00:54 GMT 1
I haven't made anything up.
Dan admitted on the other thread that I had his opinion right and you agreed with that opinion.
Andybody that has spent time on this board knows your opinion on Thatcher.
The financial history is laid out for all to see.
There really is nothing else to say if you can't see it and if you can't see your obvious contradictions.
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Post by markelt on Mar 16, 2011 12:24:46 GMT 1
That's the spirit
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 16, 2011 12:29:37 GMT 1
OK
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plumbs
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by plumbs on Mar 16, 2011 17:24:02 GMT 1
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 16, 2011 17:28:42 GMT 1
ignorance of the law is no defence!
sometimes you just have to set an example.
what a stupid c*** though - daisy chains with daffodils!?
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plumbs
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by plumbs on Mar 16, 2011 17:32:58 GMT 1
ignorance of the law is no defence! sometimes you just have to set an example. what a stupid c*** though - daisy chains with daffodils!? You do indeed have to set an example.Bumped into a mate of mine this week who was stopped by VOSA-as a plumber he has commercial vehicle and is a sole trader like me. Van checked out ok but he's been fined £150 for not having a 'no smoking fine' sticker in his van. The worlds going even crazier :spaz:
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 16, 2011 17:40:44 GMT 1
how on earth do you get stopped by vosa???
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plumbs
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by plumbs on Mar 16, 2011 18:02:23 GMT 1
how on earth do you get stopped by vosa??? Seriously? They set up road blocks with the police or in daleys neck of the woods,their mobile patrols take you to the motorway link at Milnrow
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Post by turtle on Mar 17, 2011 0:00:52 GMT 1
Hellfire . Do you lot never get bored.
Ken Clarke would have been one hell of a PM. You've got to be wetter than wet to be voted in as PM in this country now. That Thatcher women has a lot to answer for.
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Mar 17, 2011 9:21:21 GMT 1
I pass that Milnrow part of the motorway nearly every day of the week.
Ken Clarke is softer than a cuddly toy.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Mar 17, 2011 11:02:35 GMT 1
Completely right. What the fuck were the parents doing letting their brats vandalise a park in the first place?
And anyone who calls their kids India and Sienna should be put up against a fucking wall and shot from the shins upwards.
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plumbs
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by plumbs on Mar 17, 2011 12:07:41 GMT 1
Completely right. What the fuck were the parents doing letting their brats vandalise a park in the first place? And anyone who calls their kids India and Sienna should be put up against a fucking wall and shot from the shins upwards. The kids will now go underground and become urban gangstas-probably modelling themselves on the Rochdale Massive which daley has mentioned previously. Its ironic that when Bob Dylan* stuck flowers in his hair,you smoked weed and prostested about the Yanks in 'nam you flamin' hypocrite.
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Mar 17, 2011 13:01:39 GMT 1
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Bernie
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Bernie on Mar 17, 2011 13:07:32 GMT 1
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plumbs
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by plumbs on Mar 17, 2011 13:33:21 GMT 1
'Ikea'...she'll be wanting a whole new wardrobe for the summer ;D
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Will_75
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Post by Will_75 on Mar 17, 2011 13:41:01 GMT 1
Plumbs Bob has made a few minor errors over the years, but he never* wore flowers in his hair. No one likes hippies. *anyone who finds a photo of Captain Bob with a flower in his hair can fuck off, I won't look
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plumbs
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by plumbs on Mar 17, 2011 14:00:46 GMT 1
Ok I take it all back-but I believe Robert Zimmerman has
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brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by brispie on Mar 17, 2011 15:21:45 GMT 1
The only* problem with Ken Clarke is that he is a fan of the evil red spawn.
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