Tinpot
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I'm really tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Sept 19, 2013 22:12:34 GMT 1
What if your wife was a female paramedic risking her,life in Liverpool city centre every weekend ? It just seems convenient that we view differing crimes in order to suit our argument.. Is it whether the crime is violence or sexual violence ? Whether its once , twice or repeated ? Whether its against a man or a woman ? What is the criteria for our outrage? My feeling is that a large part of the criteria tends to be whether the player is any good and who he plays for... If vaughany had been a bit of a scumbag in his youth I suspect his whole hearted approach, scoring prowess and extravagant corner flag celebration would overcome that hurdle for most fans if he was playing for htfc Difficult to say for certain, because my wife is not a paramedic (although a very good friend of mine is, I recognise that's not the same). However, for me the main issue is whether the crime was a one-off moment of stupidity that got out of hand or whether it's indicative of character. What the person's response was. Adam Hammill's was to knuckle down & sort himself out. Marlon King on the other hand continued to commit a string of offences. The seriousness of the offence & the circumstances also matter. Ched Evans will still be in his 20s when he's released & most likely still a very good footballer. Unless new evidence comes to light that shows that he was wrongly convicted then even though this was his only offence, it's serious enough to warrant steering well clear. I'm sure somebody will take a chance on him but I hope it's not us. It was a calculated act & indicative of character (vs Adam Hammill's being borne out of drunken confusion/stupidity). To take another controversial character (& one that hopefully answers into your, "who he plays for" question) - El Hadji Diouf. He's a horrible fecker, I really dislike him. The fact that controversy has followed his career wherever he has gone suggests that his antics are also within character, but to my mind they're not really serious enough to warrant being put in the same bracket as King or Evans. If he signed for us would I be up in arms in disgust? No. As for Vaughany - if he'd been a bit of a scumbag in his youth, but had turned his life around then yes, I'd still be giving him my support. If he was still a scumbag, I wouldn't. |
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Post by morleyterrier on Sept 20, 2013 5:29:18 GMT 1
What if your wife was a female paramedic risking her,life in Liverpool city centre every weekend ? It just seems convenient that we view differing crimes in order to suit our argument.. Is it whether the crime is violence or sexual violence ? Whether its once , twice or repeated ? Whether its against a man or a woman ? What is the criteria for our outrage? My feeling is that a large part of the criteria tends to be whether the player is any good and who he plays for... If vaughany had been a bit of a scumbag in his youth I suspect his whole hearted approach, scoring prowess and extravagant corner flag celebration would overcome that hurdle for most fans if he was playing for htfc Difficult to say for certain, because my wife is not a paramedic (although a very good friend of mine is, I recognise that's not the same). However, for me the main issue is whether the crime was a one-off moment of stupidity that got out of hand or whether it's indicative of character. What the person's response was. Adam Hammill's was to knuckle down & sort himself out. Marlon King on the other hand continued to commit a string of offences. The seriousness of the offence & the circumstances also matter. Ched Evans will still be in his 20s when he's released & most likely still a very good footballer. Unless new evidence comes to light that shows that he was wrongly convicted then even though this was his only offence, it's serious enough to warrant steering well clear. I'm sure somebody will take a chance on him but I hope it's not us. It was a calculated act & indicative of character (vs Adam Hammill's being borne out of drunken confusion/stupidity). To take another controversial character (& one that hopefully answers into your, "who he plays for" question) - El Hadji Diouf. He's a horrible fecker, I really dislike him. The fact that controversy has followed his career wherever he has gone suggests that his antics are also within character, but to my mind they're not really serious enough to warrant being put in the same bracket as King or Evans. If he signed for us would I be up in arms in disgust? No. As for Vaughany - if he'd been a bit of a scumbag in his youth, but had turned his life around then yes, I'd still be giving him my support. If he was still a scumbag, I wouldn't. Ted, I was going to reply to your post / response to mine, however, there is no need to as Bugliner has done it for me, I couldn't have demonstrated the point any better than has been done here. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 20, 2013 6:56:17 GMT 1
But bugliner/Morley .. I wasn't talking about what you would do or think. I was talking about the majority . And imagine the scenario, town have just got into the play off final against leeds at wembley. The players go out for a celebratory drink . Vaughan (who has just notched a hat trick in the play off semi to take his tally for the season to 35) has one too many and commits a crime for which he is bailed. Now I'm not saying there wouldn't be outrage or upset. But what I am saying is that people's opinions might alter for the fact that 1) it's a town player as opposed to if leeds had won and say McCormack had done it 2) it's james Vaughan and not say anton robinson 3) we are on the cusp of the top division for the first time in over 40 years.. Do you honestly think that the level of outrage and the consensus about what would constitute a suitable punishment would be the same ? I put it to you that the reactions would be in case 1) hang him, case 2) flog him (and send him back to bournemouth) case 3) the lads been stupid but lets not be hasty lets wait till the summer, analyse all the information and make an informed decision .. And bugliner/Morley , if you say "yes but it would depend on the crime " , then yes it would, but do you see my point ?
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Post by dreamboy3000 on Sept 20, 2013 16:01:06 GMT 1
Ched Evans will still be in his 20s when he's released & most likely still a very good footballer. Unless new evidence comes to light that shows that he was wrongly convicted then even though this was his only offence, it's serious enough to warrant steering well clear. I'm sure somebody will take a chance on him but I hope it's not us. You seen the website trying to get him "justice"? Think it's www.chedevans.com and it makes alot of points. |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Sept 20, 2013 21:43:27 GMT 1
But bugliner/Morley .. I wasn't talking about what you would do or think. I was talking about the majority . And imagine the scenario, town have just got into the play off final against leeds at wembley. The players go out for a celebratory drink . Vaughan (who has just notched a hat trick in the play off semi to take his tally for the season to 35) has one too many and commits a crime for which he is bailed. Now I'm not saying there wouldn't be outrage or upset. But what I am saying is that people's opinions might alter for the fact that 1) it's a town player as opposed to if leeds had won and say McCormack had done it 2) it's james Vaughan and not say anton robinson 3) we are on the cusp of the top division for the first time in over 40 years.. Do you honestly think that the level of outrage and the consensus about what would constitute a suitable punishment would be the same ? I put it to you that the reactions would be in case 1) hang him, case 2) flog him (and send him back to bournemouth) case 3) the lads been stupid but lets not be hasty lets wait till the summer, analyse all the information and make an informed decision .. And bugliner/Morley , if you say "yes but it would depend on the crime " , then yes it would, but do you see my point ? It seems perfectly reasonable to analyse all the information & make an informed decision, irrespective of the crime. Sheffield Utd were absolutely right to treat Ched Evans as an innocent man up until he was found guilty & until our hypothetical Vaughan/Robinson has been found guilty, we should do the same. WRT Ched Evans' innocence or otherwise - based upon footballing ability alone I'd have him here in a heartbeat. If his conviction really was unsafe & evidence comes to light to show that, then yes - I'd be delighted if we signed him upon his release. However as things stand he is a convicted rapist - if we signed him I'd want to be satisfied that he really had been wrongly convicted before giving my backing. I accept that my view may not be the majority. I'm sure that if Marlon King bags a hatful for the Blades that the majority of their fans will idolise him. Similarly, if he'd come here & scored a hatful of goals, most town fans would probably idolise him too. I wouldn't be one of them. |
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Post by bro600 on Sept 21, 2013 10:02:00 GMT 1
But bugliner/Morley .. I wasn't talking about what you would do or think. I was talking about the majority . And imagine the scenario, town have just got into the play off final against leeds at wembley. The players go out for a celebratory drink . Vaughan (who has just notched a hat trick in the play off semi to take his tally for the season to 35) has one too many and commits a crime for which he is bailed. Now I'm not saying there wouldn't be outrage or upset. But what I am saying is that people's opinions might alter for the fact that 1) it's a town player as opposed to if leeds had won and say McCormack had done it 2) it's james Vaughan and not say anton robinson 3) we are on the cusp of the top division for the first time in over 40 years.. Do you honestly think that the level of outrage and the consensus about what would constitute a suitable punishment would be the same ? I put it to you that the reactions would be in case 1) hang him, case 2) flog him (and send him back to bournemouth) case 3) the lads been stupid but lets not be hasty lets wait till the summer, analyse all the information and make an informed decision .. And bugliner/Morley , if you say "yes but it would depend on the crime " , then yes it would, but do you see my point ? Surely Tedchippington any outcry should be applauded as our legal system doesn't seem to work so well in cases similar to Marlon Kings case. It's arguments/debates akin to yours in this thread that muddy the water and allow solicitors to make a mockery of the courts and get scum bags like Hammill and King get off with lighter sentences. What the law should state is that under no circumstances do you carry out certain crimes otherwise you do such a sentence. Phuck the A,B and C about whether they are pissed, just divorced or have suffered playing for Sheff Wed for so many years being taken into consideration they should get that sentence. The outcry from the public can IMHO carry any way,shape or form it wants as in many cases it's the only punishment they will understand. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 21, 2013 10:35:03 GMT 1
I don't think you get my point bro. I'm not expressing an opinion about the relative merits of the crimes or circumstances, I'm merely stating my view of what the reactions would be in the various scenarios. Obviously the various responses would be ethically wrong, and Morley and bugliner state they would take a different stance. I am just suggesting the majority might not act as they would
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2013 11:09:43 GMT 1
Wendies fans seem to have forgotten that Madine may well end up in prison. Nasty piece of work. Sure Davey Jones'll welcome him back though. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2013 11:20:07 GMT 1
I think what's clear is that severity of offence and circumstances/details are vital. Ham mulls indiscretions are not on a par with King, let alone Evans.
Ted- in your scenario even though its highly convoluted, I still believe there'd be an outcry against Vaughan if real hard facts showed town fans of clear ad serious crime such as a serious assault or sexual assault. Perhaps Im being nieve, and suggesting we're morally better than Sheff Utd fans but there is a class difference amongst the two clubs' supporters I reckon.
They have Sean Bean. We have Jean Luc Picard. Enough said. ;-)
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Tinpot
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I'm really tinpot
Posts: 24,125
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Post by Tinpot on Sept 21, 2013 13:36:47 GMT 1
You seen the website trying to get him "justice"? Think it's www.chedevans.com and it makes alot of points. I've just had a look at that & some of the stuff on there doesn't fit with my understanding of what happened. It could be argued that all that shows is that the press didn't report very accurately (or that I didn't read the reports carefully enough - which would be fair, I didn't exactly go over it with a fine tooth comb). Not that the jury/lawyers were mistaken/negligent. Without seeing the *actual* evidence against him it's difficult to say either way. Until I do see that (& in fairness, I probably won't bother to look unless HTFC make a bid to sign him) then I'm working on the assumption that the courts were correct. |
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Tinpot
Mental Health Support Group
I'm really tinpot
Posts: 24,125
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Post by Tinpot on Sept 21, 2013 13:37:37 GMT 1
^^^ I have no idea what happened with the quoting there ^^^
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omar
Iain Dunn Terrier
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Post by omar on Sept 22, 2013 2:52:44 GMT 1
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Post by shray on Sept 22, 2013 8:20:14 GMT 1
Personally cannot condone hamills actions !!
Attacking a woman paramedic is lowest of the low, however, it appears that he has knuckled down and let his feet do the talking ?
If say rooney had done the same can you imagine the outcry. Although not in the national limelight he is still idolised by kids/fans ! Im no angel, as I'm sure a lot of us on here aren't either, but I would never attack a woman.
People hate the hooligans attached with town but which are worse ?
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