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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 11:43:10 GMT 1
Just a guess here, but just maybe we are waiting for the Premier league clubs to name their squads for the 2014/2015 season. Pretty sure there are gonna be a few quality players not selected for the squads who will fancy a season in the Championship rather than playing reserve football. Personally i would rather see a couple of quality loans come in than spend the budget on filler players like Andrews and Wellens who we would have only had a season out of at best
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Post by dugnet on Jul 25, 2014 12:10:27 GMT 1
I think this transfer window has been very interesting, those with "bigger pockets" able to spend big and those with more meager budgets playing a waiting game.
It will be interesting to see what we do now as it was clearly stated (by DH and RW at their last individual Q&A sessions) that we were looking for experience and leaders, as yet we have only signed Murphy and Peltier (certainly experienced).
If we do go down the "loan" path will we get potential or someone, like a Beckford, surplus at their own club but who can still do a job?
Overall I still think we need cover at Centre Half (ideally a big imposing 1st 11 player who can fill and improve on the Peter Clarke role), balance in midfield - there is a case for both a defensive and attacking midfielder, which if it it were to happen would mean one our current "3" would certainly leave and we definitely need cover up front - even allowing for a resurgent committed Paterson.
You also have to think we have at least one too many wide men and one Hammill, Ward or Scannell could potentially leave too.
To my mind we certainly should have done better last season with the resources we had, that said if our squad as it is now did improve we'd be no higher than upper mid-table (at best). If we were playing entertaining and committed football that would probably be enough for many fans, although I do understand the argument for "aiming higher".
In reality I think FFP will probably be nearer a farce than the "silver bullet" to level the playing field. Teams with cash will inevitably find ways of getting round the "rules". This means we are in the bottom third in terms of wages and have to live with that constraint.
My one slight concern is that I sense that this pre-season we are placing a significant emphasis on the young talent we have coming through. Although I support the strides made with the academy and the general ethos I hope that emphasis isn't unbalanced or misplaced. Someone once said "you'll win nothing with kids" and was famously proved wrong, but generally that is correct. I sincerely hope we get 1 or 2 (which would be more than average) genuine Championship players from our current U21 squad but I hope we don't rely on or expect more from this route.
Loans in a tight financial market are important and if we can secure a Vaughan and Beckford (or two) then we will have done very well.
UTT
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jul 25, 2014 12:40:31 GMT 1
I think this transfer window has been very interesting, those with "bigger pockets" able to spend big and those with more meager budgets playing a waiting game. My one slight concern is that I sense that this pre-season we are placing a significant emphasis on the young talent we have coming through. Although I support the strides made with the academy and the general ethos I hope that emphasis isn't unbalanced or misplaced. Someone once said "you'll win nothing with kids" and was famously proved wrong, but generally that is correct. I sincerely hope we get 1 or 2 (which would be more than average) genuine Championship players from our current U21 squad but I hope we don't rely on or expect more from this route. Loans in a tight financial market are important and if we can secure a Vaughan and Beckford (or two) then we will have done very well. UTT It IS all about whether a 5 year plan is just that - a plan for 5 years, or whether it is a rolling 5 year plan? If it is the latter, the success of the club depends on an agreement on what success really is, and then about delivering the consistency to achieve that aim. If we get 1 player come through per year, after 5 years we could have half a team of development players. I'd say that was success. At the moment, we have Smithies as the only current player likely to be a 1st Choice, who have come through the ranks? |
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Post by htfcfcfc on Jul 25, 2014 12:54:08 GMT 1
I think this transfer window has been very interesting, those with "bigger pockets" able to spend big and those with more meager budgets playing a waiting game. My one slight concern is that I sense that this pre-season we are placing a significant emphasis on the young talent we have coming through. Although I support the strides made with the academy and the general ethos I hope that emphasis isn't unbalanced or misplaced. Someone once said "you'll win nothing with kids" and was famously proved wrong, but generally that is correct. I sincerely hope we get 1 or 2 (which would be more than average) genuine Championship players from our current U21 squad but I hope we don't rely on or expect more from this route. Loans in a tight financial market are important and if we can secure a Vaughan and Beckford (or two) then we will have done very well. UTT It IS all about whether a 5 year plan is just that - a plan for 5 years, or whether it is a rolling 5 year plan? If it is the latter, the success of the club depends on an agreement on what success really is, and then about delivering the consistency to achieve that aim. If we get 1 player come through per year, after 5 years we could have half a team of development players. I'd say that was success. At the moment, we have Smithies as the only current player likely to be a 1st Choice, who have come through the ranks? I don;t think we'll go down the kids route too much but surely there are signs that a couple of them may make the step up. Certainly the guys we have paid out some cash for I'd like to think will appear from the bench on a reasonably regular basis. While the original "you don;t win anything with kids" seemed to be an error in judgement, they were a pretty exceptional bunch and lets not forget they were supported by the likes of Peter Schmeichel, Roy Keane, Gary Pallister, Steve Bruce and Eric Cantona. |
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Post by dugnet on Jul 25, 2014 12:58:19 GMT 1
I think this transfer window has been very interesting, those with "bigger pockets" able to spend big and those with more meager budgets playing a waiting game. My one slight concern is that I sense that this pre-season we are placing a significant emphasis on the young talent we have coming through. Although I support the strides made with the academy and the general ethos I hope that emphasis isn't unbalanced or misplaced. Someone once said "you'll win nothing with kids" and was famously proved wrong, but generally that is correct. I sincerely hope we get 1 or 2 (which would be more than average) genuine Championship players from our current U21 squad but I hope we don't rely on or expect more from this route. Loans in a tight financial market are important and if we can secure a Vaughan and Beckford (or two) then we will have done very well. UTT It IS all about whether a 5 year plan is just that - a plan for 5 years, or whether it is a rolling 5 year plan? If it is the latter, the success of the club depends on an agreement on what success really is, and then about delivering the consistency to achieve that aim. If we get 1 player come through per year, after 5 years we could have half a team of development players. I'd say that was success. At the moment, we have Smithies as the only current player likely to be a 1st Choice, who have come through the ranks? At the last Q&A RW did he denied there was "5 year plan" and I think here is part of the problem between club and fans: The fans see we have a mult-millionaire chairman who has made a massive impact on the club in his 6 years involvement - many assume "money is no option" The club has been at pains to point out we have to work within our means and that developing young talent to sustain the club (through transfer profits) is the policy that they are adopting What I don't think many fans understand is what that really means for the first team and what "success looks like" for each progressing season. In the first 3-4 seasons of DH's involvement our aim was to get back into the Championship (achieved, albeit probably longer and more arduous than everyone would have liked). The first season in the Championship was to survive (once again achieved but only just - although in probably the most competitive league in the last 20 years). Last season the aim was less clear and targets were blurred, you could argue we did consolidate but performances were somewhere between; encouraging - frustrating - below what should have been achieved - unacceptable. Indeed the way the season deteriorated from Jan through to April was concerning. Looking at this season I think the club needs to state where we are (in terms of our progress and development) and what we are aiming to achieve on the pitch. I do have a concern that we may become excellent at developing young talent but never achieve a successful 1st team - in the same way that Blackpool and Burnley have done in recent years. Overall I think there is a little confusion which is not encouraging the "floating fan" to become engaged with the club again. In truth many of those floating fans will only come back if we are winning games and playing well. I'd like to see us make a clear statement of what we should be looking to achieve, set the bar and look to better it. There is no question of putting pressure on the players as we are currently one of the teams fancied to go down so on that basis there's every incentive to prove people wrong. |
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 25, 2014 13:19:45 GMT 1
I think this transfer window has been very interesting, those with "bigger pockets" able to spend big and those with more meager budgets playing a waiting game. It will be interesting to see what we do now as it was clearly stated (by DH and RW at their last individual Q&A sessions) that we were looking for experience and leaders, as yet we have only signed Murphy and Peltier (certainly experienced). If we do go down the "loan" path will we get potential or someone, like a Beckford, surplus at their own club but who can still do a job? Overall I still think we need cover at Centre Half (ideally a big imposing 1st 11 player who can fill and improve on the Peter Clarke role), balance in midfield - there is a case for both a defensive and attacking midfielder, which if it it were to happen would mean one our current "3" would certainly leave and we definitely need cover up front - even allowing for a resurgent committed Paterson. You also have to think we have at least one too many wide men and one Hammill, Ward or Scannell could potentially leave too. To my mind we certainly should have done better last season with the resources we had, that said if our squad as it is now did improve we'd be no higher than upper mid-table (at best). If we were playing entertaining and committed football that would probably be enough for many fans, although I do understand the argument for "aiming higher". In reality I think FFP will probably be nearer a farce than the "silver bullet" to level the playing field. Teams with cash will inevitably find ways of getting round the "rules". This means we are in the bottom third in terms of wages and have to live with that constraint. My one slight concern is that I sense that this pre-season we are placing a significant emphasis on the young talent we have coming through. Although I support the strides made with the academy and the general ethos I hope that emphasis isn't unbalanced or misplaced. Someone once said "you'll win nothing with kids" and was famously proved wrong, but generally that is correct. I sincerely hope we get 1 or 2 (which would be more than average) genuine Championship players from our current U21 squad but I hope we don't rely on or expect more from this route. Loans in a tight financial market are important and if we can secure a Vaughan and Beckford (or two) then we will have done very well. UTT Largely agree but you haven't addressed two of our main weaknesses from last season which I hope new signings this close season will remedy. What to do when Vaughan is crocked - so we need a more than adequate third striker who can lead the line when Vaughan is not available. Wells tried manfully in the one up front role last season but he is much more effective with a partner. We will suffer this season, as we did last season, if we have to play with Wells one up front. I think its pretty clear that our midfield is not quite balanced enough and we can't compete against some sides because we have little power, pace or energy in central midfield - that needs addressing. |
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Post by fredcarno1 on Jul 25, 2014 13:23:32 GMT 1
Can't disagree with much of what you have said there. The big problem is it seems that whilst Town are trying to do things in a more sustainable manner and adhere to FFP, most are not bothered. This puts us at a pretty big disadvantage when you look at the squads some of the other teams have put together.
To get round this you either need to have a few youngsters turn out to be gems and / or a manager who tactically very good and can get a bit extra out of what he's got. I'm quite hopeful that we may get a couple of very decent players out of our academy, but I don't think the manager has anything that most managers at League 1 / Lower Championship level would give us. I don't find him inspirational in any shape or form and we've still to see whether he can actually spot a decent signing.
I sense a massive sense of apathy around the prospects for next season around the core fan base, due to an appalling second half of last season and the very unispiring transfer window up to press. So what chance you have of attracting floating fans ? The most exciting thing to happen in the close season has been the NSL group sorting a home end out and a new strip ! That speaks volumes for me.
As always for most watching town is more about the day out, a few beers, a laugh with your mates and the shared experience. So if we struggle and end up getting relegated would it really be that bad, I certainly got past the stage of getting upset about it years ago.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jul 25, 2014 13:26:18 GMT 1
A cople of points:
We have, realistically, woefully underutilised the loan market when you think of the potential. Yes, Ward, Vaughan and Hammill all signed permanently after loans. But we rarely sign a promising player on a season long loan deal that we know we're never going to get permanently but needs a season. The last loans like this that were in any way succesful were Martin Kelly and Danny Drinkwater - they;ve both gone on to better things and, here is the key, made us a better side.
What Robins should be doing is looking to balance our permanent and established players with a few of our own young players, with a sprinlking of brilliance from players who are likely to end up playing at a higher level.
Yes, we need to develop our own players. Based on our current squad, who is going to mentor Duane Holmes? Clayton will be too busy carrying the team, and neither Hogg nor Norwood are good enough or have done enough. So we either bring in an experienced player to take him under his wing, or we bring in a young duture star from one of the big boys in the EPL and let them be the standard he has to reach.
We don't really know how good our young guns are because we have no barometer - they haven't palyedf enough and we are comparign apples and oranges if we compare Holmes and Hogg or Tommy Smith and Gerard.
So, to try and keep thsi thread on track, if we can loan in either a) a gifted young player who will be a Premier league regular in 2016 but needs competitive first team football or b) an experienced midfielder from lower PL team who is 26th choice for a 25 man squad, then we need to do it.
If that also means we end up signing them next year, like we did with Ward/Vaughan/Hammill, then great. If not, then nexty year we do the same.
We need to be realistic about our youth squad. It is highly unlikely we will see a mdifield which features Charles, Billing and Holmes week in week out in the years to come. We know that from experience - step forward Joe Skarz, James Berrett et al. But we also can be hopeful - Southampton played in League 1 and the Championship and they have just sold two academny graduates for in excess of £50m, and still have Ward-Prowse and Chambers on their books, who both look likely to generate a big revenue, probably next summer. We only need one like that to set us up nicely
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jul 25, 2014 13:29:37 GMT 1
If "survival" is a goal its time to turn the lights off, lock the gates and all go home.
This season there will be half a dozen teams with massive financial problems, threadbare squads and meagre budgets...and i dont class us like that.
To get more fans in we will need continued, relative success. People dont just wake up and decide to be life-long fans.
The gate-money will NEVER sustain the club, thats why we have 50 partners, to subsidise its finances.
The real money is in finding one diamond a season and selling him on.
For 30 years i have been batting on about us spreading our wings, bringing young lads over from Scandinavia and former Eastern bloc countries for trials.
Faffing about with 25 lads down at Canaside is all well and good, we need to be looking at feeders who have done a lot of the work for you.
As i have often posted, some clubs find a couple a season to sell on for good money, we have found half a dozen in 30 years.
Gerry Murphy used to bring them from Eire by the potato sack-load, what a fat lot of good they were.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jul 25, 2014 13:31:28 GMT 1
Can't disagree with much of what you have said there. The big problem is it seems that whilst Town are trying to do things in a more sustainable manner and adhere to FFP, most are not bothered. This puts us at a pretty big disadvantage when you look at the squads some of the other teams have put together. To get round this you either need to have a few youngsters turn out to be gems and / or a manager who tactically very good and can get a bit extra out of what he's got. I'm quite hopeful that we may get a couple of very decent players out of our academy, but I don't think the manager has anything that most managers at League 1 / Lower Championship level would give us. I don't find him inspirational in any shape or form and we've still to see whether he can actually spot a decent signing. I sense a massive sense of apathy around the prospects for next season around the core fan base, due to an appalling second half of last season and the very unispiring transfer window up to press. So what chance you have of attracting floating fans ? The most exciting thing to happen in the close season has been the NSL group sorting a home end out and a new strip ! That speaks volumes for me. As always for most watching town is more about the day out, a few beers, a laugh with your mates and the shared experience. So if we struggle and end up getting relegated would it really be that bad, I certainly got past the stage of getting upset about it years ago. We have a new shop too....  |
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Post by AndySk on Jul 25, 2014 13:32:57 GMT 1
Our main balls up last season was not utilizing the loan market. One shit right back wasn't good enough really
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jul 25, 2014 13:45:02 GMT 1
Our main balls up last season was not utilizing the loan market. One shit right back wasn't good enough really  |
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Post by dugnet on Jul 25, 2014 13:53:55 GMT 1
The other thing that we have unwittingly created is a culture that is largely bound by strategies and development, to my eyes we have lost sight of getting a successful football team together.
From DH to Robins there is a focus on doing things "right/differently", making the most of what we have - "improving by small percentages". I totally understand this and support the underlying principles but we also need an outlook at first team level which says; "OK we haven't the biggest budget but we are stable, with first class infrastructure let's build a first team that goes out and takes this league and the other teams by surprise".
There is still room for the team that punches above it's weight and creates that underdog mentality that can be so successful. My fear is Robins' continually refers to being "patient", "doing things the right way", "we have a budget" etc...that's all understandable but it's like making an excuse for mediocrity before you start.
At 1st team level this club needs an injection of passion and belief we can achieve more, and use our infrastructure as an enhancer for a successful club.
We need someone who grabs hold of the first team and creates a Buxton/Warnock culture and really drives the 1st team forward.
I don't think any of the above costs anything financially, if I can write it and believe it why can't the club similarly embrace that same mindset? At the moment we seem to be content to develop at a pace that our budget decrees and to some degree I think that is self defeatist rubbish.
Although there are clubs with undoubtedly bigger budgets and squads those clubs have much bigger pressures to succeed. There are other clubs living beyond their means or suffering from living beyond their means. Use this to our advantage and look to know these teams off their stride.
I think the club needs a fresh impetus, a new sense of direction at 1st team level, in the same way as Buxton picked the club up from it's bootstraps 36 years ago. The difference is now the club is well run and stable and will support a manager as far as it can. To large degree it's OVER TO YOU MR ROBINS....how good a manager do you think you can be? How good a manager do you want to be?
UTT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 14:05:48 GMT 1
Can't disagree with much of what you have said there. The big problem is it seems that whilst Town are trying to do things in a more sustainable manner and adhere to FFP, most are not bothered. This puts us at a pretty big disadvantage when you look at the squads some of the other teams have put together. To get round this you either need to have a few youngsters turn out to be gems and / or a manager who tactically very good and can get a bit extra out of what he's got. I'm quite hopeful that we may get a couple of very decent players out of our academy, but I don't think the manager has anything that most managers at League 1 / Lower Championship level would give us. I don't find him inspirational in any shape or form and we've still to see whether he can actually spot a decent signing. I sense a massive sense of apathy around the prospects for next season around the core fan base, due to an appalling second half of last season and the very unispiring transfer window up to press. So what chance you have of attracting floating fans ? The most exciting thing to happen in the close season has been the NSL group sorting a home end out and a new strip ! That speaks volumes for me. As always for most watching town is more about the day out, a few beers, a laugh with your mates and the shared experience. So if we struggle and end up getting relegated would it really be that bad, I certainly got past the stage of getting upset about it years ago. If FFP didn't exist, we wouldn't be spending any more than the £4m per year Hoyle already covers. In that sense, any effect from financial tightening is positive for us, and while the top players continue to attract the big bucks the median salary for a Championship player is falling. The is hugely to our advantage relative to other teams. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 14:42:30 GMT 1
The other thing that we have unwittingly created is a culture that is largely bound by strategies and development, to my eyes we have lost sight of getting a successful football team together. From DH to Robins there is a focus on doing things "right/differently", making the most of what we have - "improving by small percentages". I totally understand this and support the underlying principles but we also need an outlook at first team level which says; "OK we haven't the biggest budget but we are stable, with first class infrastructure let's build a first team that goes out and takes this league and the other teams by surprise". There is still room for the team that punches above it's weight and creates that underdog mentality that can be so successful. My fear is Robins' continually refers to being "patient", "doing things the right way", "we have a budget" etc...that's all understandable but it's like making an excuse for mediocrity before you start. At 1st team level this club needs an injection of passion and belief we can achieve more, and use our infrastructure as an enhancer for a successful club. We need someone who grabs hold of the first team and creates a Buxton/Warnock culture and really drives the 1st team forward. I don't think any of the above costs anything financially, if I can write it and believe it why can't the club similarly embrace that same mindset? At the moment we seem to be content to develop at a pace that our budget decrees and to some degree I think that is self defeatist rubbish. Although there are clubs with undoubtedly bigger budgets and squads those clubs have much bigger pressures to succeed. There are other clubs living beyond their means or suffering from living beyond their means. Use this to our advantage and look to know these teams off their stride. I think the club needs a fresh impetus, a new sense of direction at 1st team level, in the same way as Buxton picked the club up from it's bootstraps 36 years ago. The difference is now the club is well run and stable and will support a manager as far as it can. To large degree it's OVER TO YOU MR ROBINS....how good a manager do you think you can be? How good a manager do you want to be? UTT This is why Steve Thompson was brought in. He's supposed to be a good hands on coach and one that is excellent at building a morale and spirit around the place. |
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 25, 2014 15:43:01 GMT 1
The other thing that we have unwittingly created is a culture that is largely bound by strategies and development, to my eyes we have lost sight of getting a successful football team together. From DH to Robins there is a focus on doing things "right/differently", making the most of what we have - "improving by small percentages". I totally understand this and support the underlying principles but we also need an outlook at first team level which says; "OK we haven't the biggest budget but we are stable, with first class infrastructure let's build a first team that goes out and takes this league and the other teams by surprise". There is still room for the team that punches above it's weight and creates that underdog mentality that can be so successful. My fear is Robins' continually refers to being "patient", "doing things the right way", "we have a budget" etc...that's all understandable but it's like making an excuse for mediocrity before you start. At 1st team level this club needs an injection of passion and belief we can achieve more, and use our infrastructure as an enhancer for a successful club. We need someone who grabs hold of the first team and creates a Buxton/Warnock culture and really drives the 1st team forward. I don't think any of the above costs anything financially, if I can write it and believe it why can't the club similarly embrace that same mindset? At the moment we seem to be content to develop at a pace that our budget decrees and to some degree I think that is self defeatist rubbish. Although there are clubs with undoubtedly bigger budgets and squads those clubs have much bigger pressures to succeed. There are other clubs living beyond their means or suffering from living beyond their means. Use this to our advantage and look to know these teams off their stride. I think the club needs a fresh impetus, a new sense of direction at 1st team level, in the same way as Buxton picked the club up from it's bootstraps 36 years ago. The difference is now the club is well run and stable and will support a manager as far as it can. To large degree it's OVER TO YOU MR ROBINS....how good a manager do you think you can be? How good a manager do you want to be? UTT While I agree that the manager is very important in setting the tone - in 50 + years of watching Town all our good times have been when we have had at least one or more outstanding players in the team who create the passion / belief ie Worthington / Cherry, Stewart, Gorre, Shearer, Marsden, Maskell, Booth/Jepson etc I'm clinging to the belief that Vaughan/Wells will be one of those partnerships to set us going. They are good enough - just hope they stay fit enough. So I'd see it as over to you Vaughan & Wells rather than over to you Mr Robbins. |
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cj01
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
High above Huddersfield.
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Post by cj01 on Jul 25, 2014 16:43:31 GMT 1
It IS all about whether a 5 year plan is just that - a plan for 5 years, or whether it is a rolling 5 year plan? If it is the latter, the success of the club depends on an agreement on what success really is, and then about delivering the consistency to achieve that aim. If we get 1 player come through per year, after 5 years we could have half a team of development players. I'd say that was success. At the moment, we have Smithies as the only current player likely to be a 1st Choice, who have come through the ranks? At the last Q&A RW did he denied there was "5 year plan" and I think here is part of the problem between club and fans: The fans see we have a mult-millionaire chairman who has made a massive impact on the club in his 6 years involvement - many assume "money is no option" The club has been at pains to point out we have to work within our means and that developing young talent to sustain the club (through transfer profits) is the policy that they are adopting What I don't think many fans understand is what that really means for the first team and what "success looks like" for each progressing season. In the first 3-4 seasons of DH's involvement our aim was to get back into the Championship (achieved, albeit probably longer and more arduous than everyone would have liked). The first season in the Championship was to survive (once again achieved but only just - although in probably the most competitive league in the last 20 years). Last season the aim was less clear and targets were blurred, you could argue we did consolidate but performances were somewhere between; encouraging - frustrating - below what should have been achieved - unacceptable. Indeed the way the season deteriorated from Jan through to April was concerning. Looking at this season I think the club needs to state where we are (in terms of our progress and development) and what we are aiming to achieve on the pitch. I do have a concern that we may become excellent at developing young talent but never achieve a successful 1st team - in the same way that Blackpool and Burnley have done in recent years. Overall I think there is a little confusion which is not encouraging the "floating fan" to become engaged with the club again. In truth many of those floating fans will only come back if we are winning games and playing well. I'd like to see us make a clear statement of what we should be looking to achieve, set the bar and look to better it. There is no question of putting pressure on the players as we are currently one of the teams fancied to go down so on that basis there's every incentive to prove people wrong. Nigel Clibbens has already done that. Result, he got criticised heavily on here for doing it/not being seen to be instep with others at the club/not being ambitious enough/generally for existing at all!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 19:59:16 GMT 1
In the examiner today, saying we have a few first refusals on premiership players if they dont make the 25 man squads
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