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Post by terrierng on Sept 6, 2014 16:58:24 GMT 1
Smacks of a punishment to me. Holmes is far better than League 2. I think they've sent him to a club with poor facilities to show him how lucky he is to be a Town player. Not seeing that bit at all. Might be if he develops all the aspects of his game that are weak, of which there are many IMO, but at the moment hes one of those that might not even make it as a full time pro, never mind League 2. Needs game time and needs to develop physically if hes to stand any chance of making it IMO. Not making it as a pro is a bit ott capt, presume you are basing that opinion on his fleeting appearances in the first team, ? I saw him a good few times in the reserves and believe me who stood out time and again as the best player, agree though that the championship looks a step too far at the moment but league two , if he applys himself properly, will be a breeze for the kid....think its as much to do with attitude as ability.
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Post by Larry David on Sept 6, 2014 17:04:04 GMT 1
He is a bit overrated and cannot see him playing for us for much longer. Lightwieght and predictable with the ball.
Like someone said above. He simply hasn't progressed which is a shame because when he first came on the scene I was excited.
If he gets a chance at Bury he needs to grab it with both hands.
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Post by Essex Terrier on Sept 6, 2014 17:14:12 GMT 1
He is a bit overrated and cannot see him playing for us for much longer. Lightwieght and predictable with the ball. Like someone said above. He simply hasn't progressed which is a shame because when he first came on the scene I was excited. If he gets a chance at Bury he needs to grab it with both hands. Quote by shawsie from Dec 2013 - "The lad is 19, fantastically talented and learning quickly - long may it continue. No need for a loan spell as he is already holding his own as a squad player here ........ The most exciting academy prospect i have seen. Does things you cant coach - goes past players without appearing to change pace, good weight of pass in most cases and looks like hes enjoying it. A star of the future in prospect." Not trying to be clever here - we all felt, to a greater or lesser degree, much the same at the time, but he will be 20 in 2 months time and I for one would be chuffed rotten to see him come through, but if he is THAT good, why did he not get game time at Yeovil, and why is he not getting it at Bury? Start ripping up trees Duane - we all want you to do it, but.......
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Post by Captainslapper on Sept 6, 2014 17:16:17 GMT 1
Not seeing that bit at all. Might be if he develops all the aspects of his game that are weak, of which there are many IMO, but at the moment hes one of those that might not even make it as a full time pro, never mind League 2. Needs game time and needs to develop physically if hes to stand any chance of making it IMO. Not making it as a pro is a bit ott capt, presume you are basing that opinion on his fleeting appearances in the first team, ? I saw him a good few times in the reserves and believe me who stood out time and again as the best player, agree though that the championship looks a step too far at the moment but league two , if he applys himself properly, will be a breeze for the kid....think its as much to do with attitude as ability. Not saying I think he definitely won't make it as a pro, just that I think there are still doubts. Haven't seen him for the academy sides but it doesn't surprise me that in games against mainly his own age group he stood out. Theres certainly talent there when he has the ball at his feet. But at first team level, even in L2, his physical weakness is going to be a big issue for him. Hes just so easy to bully off the ball and defensively its a bit like having 10 men. It sounds silly I know, but I genuinely think it wouldn't harm him to get a flaming haircut. All hes doing with his big curly locks and hairband is highlighting the fact to any opposition player that he's got the upper body strength of a 9 year old schoolgirl, because he kind of looks like one!
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Post by terrierng on Sept 6, 2014 17:30:07 GMT 1
Not making it as a pro is a bit ott capt, presume you are basing that opinion on his fleeting appearances in the first team, ? I saw him a good few times in the reserves and believe me who stood out time and again as the best player, agree though that the championship looks a step too far at the moment but league two , if he applys himself properly, will be a breeze for the kid....think its as much to do with attitude as ability. Not saying I think he definitely won't make it as a pro, just that I think there are still doubts. Haven't seen him for the academy sides but it doesn't surprise me that in games against mainly his own age group he stood out. Theres certainly talent there when he has the ball at his feet. But at first team level, even in L2, his physical weakness is going to be a big issue for him. Hes just so easy to bully off the ball and defensively its a bit like having 10 men. It sounds silly I know, but I genuinely think it wouldn't harm him to get a flaming haircut. All hes doing with his big curly locks and hairband is highlighting the fact to any opposition player that he's got the upper body strength of a 9 year old schoolgirl, because he kind of looks like one! Totally agree he needs to work on his game regarding strength, and that the talent is there...not sure about the haircut bit though;)
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Post by waltzingthecowshed on Sept 6, 2014 18:20:48 GMT 1
Needs to knuckle down we have some excellent players in midfield and options now. Still think he can play a part from the bench when he comes back, isnt just an eleven player game anymore, seems theres an obsession for him to show he's a 90 min man. You need strength in depth he's not going to start when all are fit even if he grows physically and becomes stronger, nothing wrong with bringing him on second half in games imo......only trouble is if he wants more and would potentially rather be playing 90 mins in lower leagues than a bit part playing in Champs for Town
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Post by shawsie on Sept 6, 2014 18:33:03 GMT 1
He is a bit overrated and cannot see him playing for us for much longer. Lightwieght and predictable with the ball. Like someone said above. He simply hasn't progressed which is a shame because when he first came on the scene I was excited. If he gets a chance at Bury he needs to grab it with both hands. Quote by shawsie from Dec 2013 - "The lad is 19, fantastically talented and learning quickly - long may it continue. No need for a loan spell as he is already holding his own as a squad player here ........ The most exciting academy prospect i have seen. Does things you cant coach - goes past players without appearing to change pace, good weight of pass in most cases and looks like hes enjoying it. A star of the future in prospect." Not trying to be clever here - we all felt, to a greater or lesser degree, much the same at the time, but he will be 20 in 2 months time and I for one would be chuffed rotten to see him come through, but if he is THAT good, why did he not get game time at Yeovil, and why is he not getting it at Bury? Start ripping up trees Duane - we all want you to do it, but....... Is it any coincidence that question marks re attitude have continually followed him since his Yeovil spell. I maintain that talent wise he is one of the best I have seen from the academy.......but talent doesn't do everything, particularly when physically you are much smaller and lighter than most opponents. Don't think he was well handled by robins mind you.....like lolley and scans showed glimpses and needed to play to build confidence but the manager left em out and they stagnated. Big 3m for him.....if he doesn't shine then I think he will be allowed to go......football moves very quickly as we have seen with the Clayton and Norwood deals......Holmes should have been demanding via his training and development squad performances to take either place but hasn't and is now way down the pecking order behind Hogg, Coady, butter field, goburn, scannell, Hammill, ward, lolley, bunn.
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Sept 6, 2014 19:14:11 GMT 1
He is a bit overrated and cannot see him playing for us for much longer. Lightwieght and predictable with the ball. Like someone said above. He simply hasn't progressed which is a shame because when he first came on the scene I was excited. If he gets a chance at Bury he needs to grab it with both hands. Quote by shawsie from Dec 2013 - "The lad is 19, fantastically talented and learning quickly - long may it continue. No need for a loan spell as he is already holding his own as a squad player here ........ The most exciting academy prospect i have seen. Does things you cant coach - goes past players without appearing to change pace, good weight of pass in most cases and looks like hes enjoying it. A star of the future in prospect." Not trying to be clever here - we all felt, to a greater or lesser degree, much the same at the time, but he will be 20 in 2 months time and I for one would be chuffed rotten to see him come through, but if he is THAT good, why did he not get game time at Yeovil, and why is he not getting it at Bury? Start ripping up trees Duane - we all want you to do it, but....... He started five games at Yeovil before they sent him back early which was their loss as they got relegated. The lad played in 25 Championship games last season and yet at 19 some people are already writing him off. He signed last week the day before Bury played Accrington so it was unsurprising he wasn't in the starting eleven (Coady was on the bench for our first game). Bury won that game so why change a winning team? People are reading too much into why he hasn't started in either of the two games since he signed. He may or may not make it at Town but give the lad a break. Its far too early to be writing him off yet!
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Post by ritchie on Sept 6, 2014 19:25:46 GMT 1
Still think he can make it here. The kid is only 19 - people just got too excited when he broke into the team and because he hasnt held down a place, bossed games etc now it's polar opposites
Even if he needs a full season out at league 2 and then a full season in league 1 he'll still only be 21....the age smith and bunn were before they even got a sniff...and I doubt many expected those 2 to become regulars.
To say the lad wont even make it as a pro is crazy talk at this stage
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Post by waltzingthecowshed on Sept 6, 2014 19:31:41 GMT 1
Its a fine line sometimes and luck plays its part, if some of those chances he narrowly missed last season are converted and he had scored a few goalds to add to his creativity then i reckon he would be still with our first team....cant dent though a great second half against Blackpool and a breath of fresh air...lets hope he fulfills his obvious potential
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Post by Essex Terrier on Sept 6, 2014 19:31:44 GMT 1
Quote by shawsie from Dec 2013 - "The lad is 19, fantastically talented and learning quickly - long may it continue. No need for a loan spell as he is already holding his own as a squad player here ........ The most exciting academy prospect i have seen. Does things you cant coach - goes past players without appearing to change pace, good weight of pass in most cases and looks like hes enjoying it. A star of the future in prospect." Not trying to be clever here - we all felt, to a greater or lesser degree, much the same at the time, but he will be 20 in 2 months time and I for one would be chuffed rotten to see him come through, but if he is THAT good, why did he not get game time at Yeovil, and why is he not getting it at Bury? Start ripping up trees Duane - we all want you to do it, but....... He started five games at Yeovil before they sent him back early which was their loss as they got relegated. The lad played in 25 Championship games last season and yet at 19 some people are already writing him off. He signed last week the day before Bury played Accrington so it was unsurprising he wasn't in the starting eleven (Coady was on the bench for our first game). Bury won that game so why change a winning team? People are reading too much into why he hasn't started in either of the two games since he signed. He may or may not make it at Town but give the lad a break. Its far too early to be writing him off yet! Didn't think it'd be long before you bit, Frankies!! Yes, some are "writing him off" and it is, perhaps, a bit early for that. We have also, perhaps, not seen enough of him at this level to be sure that he has not improved in a year when he has had 25 games in the Championship, but it is clear to all of us (surely?) that, unless we DO see some improvement soon, he may well fall by the wayside? His cameo appearance v Forest showed to me that he is unable to impose himself on matches like that enough - at least when Alan Lee came on, you knew something was gonna happen!
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Post by shawsie on Sept 6, 2014 19:35:33 GMT 1
I don't think many are writing him off........but football does move very quickly these day It's a huge season for Holmes, Sinnott, Wallace, Charles, billing, Carr etc.....it may be too much to expect these lads to kick on in our first team right now.....but if they don't they need to be playing first team football. Am sorry but the development squad is miles away from the first team level and doesn't prepare the lads for the week in week out intensity of the championship.
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Post by raggytash on Sept 6, 2014 19:35:55 GMT 1
As said before, Holmes is a cracking little player, that says it all really, too lightweight, too easily knocked of of the ball, think the championship is a bit much for the lad, but cant see why he cant make it in league 1 or 2, IMO
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Post by Captainslapper on Sept 6, 2014 19:38:38 GMT 1
Still think he can make it here. The kid is only 19 - people just got too excited when he broke into the team and because he hasnt held down a place, bossed games etc now it's polar opposites Even if he needs a full season out at league 2 and then a full season in league 1 he'll still only be 21....the age smith and bunn were before they even got a sniff...and I doubt many expected those 2 to become regulars. To say the lad wont even make it as a pro is crazy talk at this stage Just to clarify, I said I think its not certain that he'll make it as a pro., not that i think he won't.
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Sept 6, 2014 19:39:34 GMT 1
He started five games at Yeovil before they sent him back early which was their loss as they got relegated. The lad played in 25 Championship games last season and yet at 19 some people are already writing him off. He signed last week the day before Bury played Accrington so it was unsurprising he wasn't in the starting eleven (Coady was on the bench for our first game). Bury won that game so why change a winning team? People are reading too much into why he hasn't started in either of the two games since he signed. He may or may not make it at Town but give the lad a break. Its far too early to be writing him off yet! Didn't think it'd be long before you bit, Frankies!! Yes, some are "writing him off" and it is, perhaps, a bit early for that. We have also, perhaps, not seen enough of him at this level to be sure that he has not improved in a year when he has had 25 games in the Championship, but it is clear to all of us (surely?) that, unless we DO see some improvement soon, he may well fall by the wayside? His cameo appearance v Forest showed to me that he is unable to impose himself on matches like that enough - at least when Alan Lee came on, you knew something was gonna happen![/quote] Yeah he'd get sent off again. Holmes was poor in his cameo against Forest but then I'd blame Lillis for that as he should never have come on to play that role. Moving Coady to right back was a big mistake.To get the best out of Holmes he needs to be the most advanced midfielder, just behind the strikers where he can hurt the opposition. He's never going to be big/strong enough to mix it with the big boys, so let him play to his strengths.
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Post by Essex Terrier on Sept 6, 2014 19:40:19 GMT 1
I don't think many are writing him off........but football does move very quickly these day It's a huge season for Holmes, Sinnott, Wallace, Charles, billing, Carr etc.....it may be too much to expect these lads to kick on in our first team right now.....but if they don't they need to be playing first team football. Am sorry but the development squad is miles away from the first team level and doesn't prepare the lads for the week in week out intensity of the championship. Be more than content for one of those to become a 1st Team regular this season, a'la Smith last season.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 0:16:29 GMT 1
If I were lillis/Powell I'd be livid that he ain't starting for Bury! Why loan him out to bench in league 2 when he can bench in the championship!
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Post by terriersyndrome on Sept 7, 2014 0:35:40 GMT 1
Too young to tell just yet if he's got what it takes, but the loan to Bury should do him some good to get a decent run of games & see how he gets on.. The lad has loads of talent, no doubt about it, but he's still only 19 so he needs time to develop his game physically & mentally.. Size wise he has some top players to look up to & prove it can be overcome.. With the rough & tumble of league 2, come January we should have a good idea as to where he's at.. I'm pretty sure Powell will want to take a closer look before loaning him back out though.
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Post by ritchie on Sept 7, 2014 0:45:02 GMT 1
If I were lillis/Powell I'd be livid that he ain't starting for Bury! Why loan him out to bench in league 2 when he can bench in the championship! Good you're not them then...if/when holmes is deserving of a start then he'll start. I'd question the club if they were demanding that loaning clubs automatically start players we loan them - what kind of example is that to set to a young player!?! you're from a championship club so you deserve to start above the lads already in the team? for a start it would alienate him from the rest of the bury squad....how exactly is that going to help a young players character, drive, motivation etc?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 0:49:19 GMT 1
He should impress in league 2. Get some game time, confidence and start to fulfil some real potential. if Bury won't play him though he should be recalled and sent out to somewhere that will. 10 minutes at the end of a game in league 2 is not going to be that helpful to his development and he needs more right now.
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Post by Skint Terriers on Sept 7, 2014 5:05:03 GMT 1
sick of hearing 'too lightweight' Messi and Neymar.. look at them right scrawny little rats but 2 of the best in the world. I'm not saying he will ever be as good as them but he needs to play to his strengths and advantages, If he learns how to time a pass perfectly or practices his dribbling he won't be getting knocked off the ball he just needs to develop in these kind of areas and not try change his game by get bulky. Give him time i'm sure he will shine in the next few years
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 8:28:23 GMT 1
Haven't they just had two games so far?
The first one he hadn't been at the club 12 hours so was never going to start. Yesterday perhaps Flitcroft didn't think it right to throw him in to an away game against a team that have started really well or he didn't fit in the system he wanted to play to try and get a result
I'm sure he'll get plenty of game time as the season goes on
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Post by Headless Chicken on Sept 7, 2014 9:07:46 GMT 1
Haven't they just had two games so far? The first one he hadn't been at the club 12 hours so was never going to start. Yesterday perhaps Flitcroft didn't think it right to throw him in to an away game against a team that have started really well or he didn't fit in the system he wanted to play to try and get a result I'm sure he'll get plenty of game time as the season goes on Exactly. If it's no different in a few weeks time I'd be starting to get concerned, but at the moment not at all.
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Post by htafctaunton on Sept 7, 2014 9:16:28 GMT 1
Just hasn't fulfilled the early promise he showed against Blackpool lad season, and his form in the youth teams. Really needs some game time at a competitive level to move forward now. In my opinion, he has never been given enough game time here!! Yes he's been given the occasional start, but never a run of games. By far, the majority of his appearances have been 5 , 10, 15 mins at the end of matches - when he's expected to almost transform games on his own. And, personally, I think he has looked GOOD in most of those 'cameo appearances' --- he always looks to get control of the ball and attack the opposition with a zest few of his senior team-mates seem capable of!! I hope this loan to Bury works out for him, and he returns and is given a real chance with us.........but I feel he wii be another young player we let go (cheaply!) without ever seeing his full potential.
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Post by benhtafc on Sept 7, 2014 9:21:15 GMT 1
I think league 2 will toughen him up and at the same time give him chance to shine, he can be a game changer at that level and if it gives him the confidence and maybe he builds a bit of upper body strength then he can do it at championship too.
Worst case scenario he gets kicked about in league 2 and thinks f*ck i had better start putting a shift in for town so I dont have to go back there.
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Post by Headless Chicken on Sept 7, 2014 11:01:38 GMT 1
sick of hearing 'too lightweight' Messi and Neymar.. look at them right scrawny little rats but 2 of the best in the world. I'm not saying he will ever be as good as them but he needs to play to his strengths and advantages, If he learns how to time a pass perfectly or practices his dribbling he won't be getting knocked off the ball he just needs to develop in these kind of areas and not try change his game by get bulky. Give him time i'm sure he will shine in the next few years I get your point and agree there can be too much emphasis on bulking up young players. However, Holmes is very slight, both lower and upper body. The 'small' players you mention aren't, in particular Messi, whose legs are far from scrawny. He doesn't need to be a body builder and may not need to change much at all, but it's certainly not helping him.
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Post by Mastercracker on Sept 7, 2014 12:17:21 GMT 1
sick of hearing 'too lightweight' Messi and Neymar.. look at them right scrawny little rats but 2 of the best in the world. I'm not saying he will ever be as good as them but he needs to play to his strengths and advantages, If he learns how to time a pass perfectly or practices his dribbling he won't be getting knocked off the ball he just needs to develop in these kind of areas and not try change his game by get bulky. Give him time i'm sure he will shine in the next few years I get your point and agree there can be too much emphasis on bulking up young players. However, Holmes is very slight, both lower and upper body. The 'small' players you mention aren't, in particular Messi, whose legs are far from scrawny. He doesn't need to be a body builder and may not need to change much at all, but it's certainly not helping him. Add Raheem Stirling to your list. Tiny little bugger but he's a nightmare to knock off the ball.
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Post by Sio on Sept 7, 2014 12:21:02 GMT 1
Sterling, Messi and Neymar are all incredibly fast though, which is the reason they're so difficult to tackle.
I'm not convinced Holmes is particularly fast, just nippy with good ball control. Obviously unfair to compare him to the above in the first place but they're not entirely like-for-like
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Post by Skint Terriers on Sept 7, 2014 12:31:30 GMT 1
I was only comparing weight nothing more. I just think if we try bulk him up it will just change his game style and he could just end up a massive flop yet he has shown what he can do at times he just needs to improve in some areas which he will in the years to come
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Post by ritchie on Sept 7, 2014 14:01:01 GMT 1
said it before but you wouldnt say wilshere's size stops him from competing....he's smaller than holmes and was equally as scrawny when he started out he'll get a lot stronger over the next few years
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