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Post by 3Pipe on Oct 14, 2014 15:31:11 GMT 1
Professional league football is high profile. Wooldale juniors is not. Yorkshire CC is high profile. Broad oak is not. Sunday league players may have some local fans but they are not watched by 10 000 people weekly or on prime time Tv. What would you say to an 8 year mad keen footie fan if ched was signed by town? Well, son he did a wet bad thing- he hurt a lady very badly but he went to prison for a bit and now you can cheer him on if he scores a goal for us!? That is the position parents will be faced with soon and due to the media coverage and booing he gets at grounds the question will be unavoidable. High profile sportsmen have a responsibility far beyond that of postmen, builders or salesmen. The consequences of their behaviour have an impact on the young & this must be taken into account upon their release from prison. Firstly, I suppose when I cheer a goal I'm cheering for my team, not for the person who scored it per se. Are you suggesting Sheff U fans can only cheer goals not scored by Ched Evans from now on? What about deflections? Secondly, you're being a tad glib with the 'he went to prison for a bit' part. He's served the sentence handed down to him for the crime he is said to have committed. Thirdly, 'the consequences of their behaviour have an impact on the young'. Good, I hope every kid on the planet knows what he has been convicted of just isn't on, will be punished and will have a lifelong effect on him. I hope every kid learns that if you commit an assault like this on a woman (or man) you will be hated, pilloried and condemned by society for long after your prison term has ended. Is banning him from high profile sport not a little bit like sweeping it under the carpet? To me, it's up to him to get on with life as positively and constructively as he can now. You say high profile sportsmen have a responsibility far beyond that of postmen, builders or salesmen. I say every human being has an equal responsibilty not to rape and assault another.
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Post by bro600 on Oct 14, 2014 15:55:44 GMT 1
Did you feel the same way about Hammill playing after committing his offence? @billynomates bro600 Barbieterrier @joseppi1 Fuck me i forgot about Hammill!!! of course Ched Evans should be alright to play again. What a comparison 3 pipe . I can't believe so many people defending a convicted rapist...
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Post by 3Pipe on Oct 14, 2014 16:01:43 GMT 1
Fuck me i forgot about Hammill!!! of course Ched Evans should be alright to play again. What a comparison 3 pipe . I can't believe so many people defending a convicted rapist... I know you are better than this. Calm down and read the thread. If anything, I'm defending the legal system as it presently stands and the right to rehabilitation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 16:03:08 GMT 1
All of you defending Evans right to play, if he'd dragged a woman off the street, muffled her screams with the palm of his hand, then taken her into a dark corner of a secluded alley where he committed the crime of rape, would you still be defending the law and his entitlement to play football, or would you be saying the law needs changing?
Or are the circumstances of the crime affecting your decision on "how guilty" he is.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 16:07:30 GMT 1
Professional league football is high profile. Wooldale juniors is not. Yorkshire CC is high profile. Broad oak is not. Sunday league players may have some local fans but they are not watched by 10 000 people weekly or on prime time Tv. What would you say to an 8 year mad keen footie fan if ched was signed by town? Well, son he did a wet bad thing- he hurt a lady very badly but he went to prison for a bit and now you can cheer him on if he scores a goal for us!? That is the position parents will be faced with soon and due to the media coverage and booing he gets at grounds the question will be unavoidable. High profile sportsmen have a responsibility far beyond that of postmen, builders or salesmen. The consequences of their behaviour have an impact on the young & this must be taken into account upon their release from prison. Firstly, I suppose when I cheer a goal I'm cheering for my team, not for the person who scored it per se. Are you suggesting Sheff U fans can only cheer goals not scored by Ched Evans from now on? What about deflections? I am not suggesting this but this is the reality kids/parents will be faced with. I'm finding your argument somewhat obtuse. There's an overeaching point about modern british society here. Your position is that he should be able to return to his previous profession and are finding minor details to undermine my opposing position. Mine is a moral/social objection.Secondly, you're being a tad glib with the 'he went to prison for a bit' part. He's served the sentence handed down to him for the crime he is said to have committed. Well maybe, but 2 years for rape? What message does that really send out?Thirdly, 'the consequences of their behaviour have an impact on the young'. Good, I hope every kid on the planet knows what he has been convicted of just isn't on, will be punished and will have a lifelong effect on him. I hope every kid learns that if you commit an assault like this on a woman (or man) you will be hated, pilloried and condemned by society for long after your prison term has ended.But ultimately you can carry on Is banning him from high profile sport not a little bit like sweeping it under the carpet? To me, it's up to him to get on with life as positively and constructively as he can now. You say high profile sportsmen have a responsibility far beyond that of postmen, builders or salesmen. I say every human being has an equal responsibility not to rape and assault another. Yes but not every human is in the public eye, watched and looked up to, even idolised by children young people. He should be able to return to paid employment but not as a professional footballer. If he's too thick to do anything else then he should've thought of that before he decided to take advantage of and rape a young heavily inebriated woman. If consequences were career ending I think we'd see less of these incidents and our young people might actually have role models worth looking up to
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Post by 3Pipe on Oct 14, 2014 16:08:16 GMT 1
All of you defending Evans right to play, if he'd dragged a woman off the street, muffled her screams with the palm of his hand, then taken her into a dark corner of a secluded alley where he committed the crime of rape, would you still be defending the law and his entitlement to play football, or would you be saying the law needs changing? Or are the circumstances of the crime affecting your decision on "how guilty" he is. Very good question.
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Post by bro600 on Oct 14, 2014 16:12:32 GMT 1
Fuck me i forgot about Hammill!!! of course Ched Evans should be alright to play again. What a comparison 3 pipe . I can't believe so many people defending a convicted rapist... I know you are better than this. Calm down and read the thread. If anything, I'm defending the legal system as it presently stands and the right to rehabilitation. Calm as they come my friend.. I'm all for defending the rights to rehabilitation and i see loads of flaws in our legal system that need to be addressed.. But i draw the line when mentioning the rights of people who have carried out certain acts. The original post is regarding a rapist. I remain silent when it comes to his rights to anything and leave that to who he wants to defend him legally..This is a supporters forum and there are presently around 200 Town supporters banned from the ground for offences they have not been found guilty of..I didn't see as much sympathy when it was mentioned on here last season for them as there is for this rapist.. My last word on the subject as i've suffered with victims in the past...
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Post by 3Pipe on Oct 14, 2014 16:16:02 GMT 1
Crickey Joe, a bit harsh on the eyes. From the bits I can make out, yes the sentence for rape is IMO too light. Yes, I'm sticking to my rehabilitation argument. And no, I'm not sure if the consequences were career ending we would see less of these incidents.
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Post by Barbieterrier on Oct 14, 2014 16:19:44 GMT 1
Did you feel the same way about Hammill playing after committing his offence? @billynomates bro600 Barbieterrier @joseppi1 Fuck me i forgot about Hammill!!! of course Ched Evans should be alright to play again. What a comparison 3 pipe . I can't believe so many people defending a convicted rapist... A convicted rapist that's not expected to apologise by some because he still thinks he hasn't done anything wrong in which case does that mean he's been rehabilitated then if he doesn't believe he has to show remorse?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 16:23:06 GMT 1
This has probably been posted earlier, however its an interesting read. www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evansSeems a strange case, If not remembering having sex is rape then I was raped by several women on numerous occasions whilst at Uni. Several of whom if I had any recollection, as low as my standards, I would have definitely told them to do one. I also woke up when travelling around the world with 2 girls in a bed, when I only took one back, I have a very faint recollection of the other one who was her mate "getting involved" but couldn't be sure..... For what its worth, before I read the case notes and still now, a convicted rapist isn't a role model that young children should aspire to be. They wouldn't allow a teacher convicted of rape to teach again, so I say that crimes of this severity should mean your not allowed to be in a position to influence/be a role model to children.
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Post by 3Pipe on Oct 14, 2014 16:24:22 GMT 1
Calm as they come my friend.. I'm all for defending the rights to rehabilitation and i see loads of flaws in our legal system that need to be addressed.. But i draw the line when mentioning the rights of people who have carried out certain acts. The original post is regarding a rapist. I remain silent when it comes to his rights to anything and leave that to who he wants to defend him legally..This is a supporters forum and there are presently around 200 Town supporters banned from the ground for offences they have not been found guilty of..I didn't see as much sympathy when it was mentioned on here last season for them as there is for this rapist.. My last word on the subject as i've suffered with victims in the past... It's an emotive subject without doubt, there are opinions in this thread I don't entirely see eye to eye with but I still respect and understand and take on board. I don't think I've much more to add either, without going round in circles.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 16:29:18 GMT 1
My last words on this topic. IMO the problem has been that having been found guilty his sentence was not long enough and then to cap it all he serves abot half of it!
As stated he then lost two appeals ,not apologised or shown remorse .
IMO Absolutely disgusting if any football club employs him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 16:34:39 GMT 1
This has probably been posted earlier, however its an interesting read. www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evansSeems a strange case, If not remembering having sex is rape then I was raped by several women on numerous occasions whilst at Uni. Several of whom if I had any recollection, as low as my standards, I would have definitely told them to do one. I also woke up when travelling around the world with 2 girls in a bed, when I only took one back, I have a very faint recollection of the other one who was her mate "getting involved" but couldn't be sure..... For what its worth, before I read the case notes and still now, a convicted rapist isn't a role model that young children should aspire to be. They wouldn't allow a teacher convicted of rape to teach again, so I say that crimes of this severity should mean your not allowed to be in a position to influence/be a role model to children. were they Dutch connections............... Amsterdam
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 16:45:54 GMT 1
You couldn't get a job teaching children but you are allowed to work in a profession idolised by children. It's a massive contradiction and it needs looking at by the government. As has been shown on countless occasions football is incapable of self governance where the greater good of society is concerned. By that definition convicted rapists can't become firemen, astronauts, engineers, train drivers, racing drivers, crane drivers, digger drivers, musicians, vets, etc etc... In fact, it doesn't leave much left for him really does it? Strewth, there are thousands of low profile jobs that aren't viewed every week by thousands of local people or are positions of trust that require criminal records bureau checks. You are being so obtuse on this issue and missing the point imo.
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 14, 2014 16:52:40 GMT 1
My last words on this topic. IMO the problem has been that having been found guilty his sentence was not long enough and then to cap it all he serves abot half of it! As stated he then lost two appeals ,not apologised or shown remorse . IMO Absolutely disgusting if any football club employs him. Just for accuracy, he hasn't lost 2 appeals, he has been denied the right to appeal twice. 2 very different things. Just 1 of numerous "facts" spouted on this thread
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 16:54:09 GMT 1
Crickey Joe, a bit harsh on the eyes. From the bits I can make out, yes the sentence for rape is IMO too light. Yes, I'm sticking to my rehabilitation argument. And no, I'm not sure if the consequences were career ending we would see less of these incidents. Yes apologies that looked different on my screen. I'm all for rehabilitation but not in certain fields- professional sport, work with children or vulnerable people, high profile media roles, mp's. If you abuse your position of celebrity you lose it for good. A small price to pay for a crime which will have a life long impact on the victim.
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 14, 2014 16:59:22 GMT 1
Crickey Joe, a bit harsh on the eyes. From the bits I can make out, yes the sentence for rape is IMO too light. Yes, I'm sticking to my rehabilitation argument. And no, I'm not sure if the consequences were career ending we would see less of these incidents. Yes apologies that looked different on my screen. I'm all for rehabilitation but not in certain fields- professional sport, work with children or vulnerable people, high profile media roles, mp's. If you abuse your position of celebrity you lose it for good. A small price to pay for a crime which will have a life long impact on the victim. Given that he has been convicted for a rape where the victim couldn't have given consent because she was unaware what was going on and therefore unaware of who he was and his celebrity status, how has he "abused his position of celebrity??"
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Post by 3Pipe on Oct 14, 2014 17:00:54 GMT 1
Strewth, there are thousands of low profile jobs that aren't viewed every week by thousands of local people or are positions of trust that require criminal records bureau checks. You are being so obtuse on this issue and missing the point imo. You haven't taken on board any of my points either Joe. We'll just have to agree to disagree and move on. Name a job where he isn't going to be seen by anyone or have any responsibility of trust. That job doesn't exist. I think it's better for all he isn't swept under the carpet.
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 14, 2014 17:21:25 GMT 1
All of you defending Evans right to play, if he'd dragged a woman off the street, muffled her screams with the palm of his hand, then taken her into a dark corner of a secluded alley where he committed the crime of rape, would you still be defending the law and his entitlement to play football, or would you be saying the law needs changing? Or are the circumstances of the crime affecting your decision on "how guilty" he is. I aren't saying that this is my view or that it is the correct view, but, if the scenario above had happenned then I don't think we would even be having this discussion as no one would touch him with a bargepole.
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Post by andyeastleake on Oct 14, 2014 17:38:31 GMT 1
If you've read up on the case as much as you imply and given your (apparent) certainty on CE's guilt, could you explain the logic that the jury found the girl incapable of giving consent to CE but was capable of giving consent to Mcdonald some time earlier. The logic of this beats me I'm afraid. If this case did nothing else, it convinced me that a jury should be required to explain it's decision (they don't at present) and that this should,if considered appropriate be subject to review by a panel of judges. I struggle to avoid the conclusion the differing verdicts had a more to do with the jury's opinion of CE's morals or persona (or perhaps how close his eyebrows are together) rather than whether or not consent was capable of being given. I struggle myself to view that as grounds to remove someone's liberty (and also his livelihood it would appear). PS Did you believe the Guildford 4, Birmingham 6 and Stefan Kiszco (a short selection from a long list) should have apologised?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 18:12:44 GMT 1
Strewth, there are thousands of low profile jobs that aren't viewed every week by thousands of local people or are positions of trust that require criminal records bureau checks. You are being so obtuse on this issue and missing the point imo. You haven't taken on board any of my points either Joe. We'll just have to agree to disagree and move on. Name a job where he isn't going to be seen by anyone or have any responsibility of trust. That job doesn't exist. I think it's better for all he isn't swept under the carpet. It's about being in the public eye, in a position with celebrity status as someone youngsters look up to. That's the issue I have. If you are guilty of an offence like that then you shoudk lose the right to work in that position, I agree the law doesn't support this position hence the debate. I'm not saying I wouldn't be very difficult to implement either, I do accept that. The best thing would be for him to disappear into obscurity imo. Get a job on merit and prove himself like all other ex-cons have to do, not just swan back into a £200k a year job.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 18:19:56 GMT 1
If you've read up on the case as much as you imply and given your (apparent) certainty on CE's guilt, could you explain the logic that the jury found the girl incapable of giving consent to CE but was capable of giving consent to Mcdonald some time earlier. The logic of this beats me I'm afraid. If this case did nothing else, it convinced me that a jury should be required to explain it's decision (they don't at present) and that this should,if considered appropriate be subject to review by a panel of judges. I struggle to avoid the conclusion the differing verdicts had a more to do with the jury's opinion of CE's morals or persona (or perhaps how close his eyebrows are together) rather than whether or not consent was capable of being given. I struggle myself to view that as grounds to remove someone's liberty (and also his livelihood it would appear). PS Did you believe the Guildford 4, Birmingham 6 and Stefan Kiszco (a short selection from a long list) should have apologised? She gave consent to McDonald earlier, not for a gang bang or to whichever scumbag he could phone up later on, and at the time of the incident she was not consenting to sex. Bringing up grave travesties of justice like the Guildford 4 is such a ridiculous comparison. It's actually offensive to those individuals. Evans never acknowledged guilt, wrongdoing or remorse. Yes those things are important in such a case. Yours is another in a long list of quite staggering posts, defending a convicted rapist. Your arrogant view of a jury who heard all evidence first hand is laughable. God forbid your wife/daughter/child ever has one too many and falls foul of a famous footballer and his cronies. & yes I've read about this case in great detail a the time & I've reminded myself of the ugly details since.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Oct 14, 2014 18:26:16 GMT 1
All of you defending Evans right to play, if he'd dragged a woman off the street, muffled her screams with the palm of his hand, then taken her into a dark corner of a secluded alley where he committed the crime of rape, would you still be defending the law and his entitlement to play football, or would you be saying the law needs changing? Or are the circumstances of the crime affecting your decision on "how guilty" he is. This link is an advice guide on UK rape sentences. I would have supported a decision to ban him from football if the judge (our appointed judicial law expert who gave such a light sentence after assessing the facts of the case and the guilty verdict returned by the jury) or the FA immediately on the return of the guilty verdict had passed on a ban to Evans. Because neither did, then my problem is a second and subsequent punishment at the end of his prison sentence.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 19:10:59 GMT 1
The judge should have passed a heavier sentence. Having chose to give a lenient one the guilty person then is allowed out before serving all of his sentence.
I wasn't in the country during this court case and have not really heard all that alledgedly went on. Even so he was found guilty ,he shoud then have to serve the full sentence and face the consequences of his actions when realeased.
I can't see any club wanting to sign him and for certain it won't be us.
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Post by ringdisco on Oct 14, 2014 19:13:20 GMT 1
You couldn't get a job teaching children but you are allowed to work in a profession idolised by children. It's a massive contradiction and it needs looking at by the government. As has been shown on countless occasions football is incapable of self governance where the greater good of society is concerned. By that definition convicted rapists can't become firemen, astronauts, engineers, train drivers, racing drivers, crane drivers, digger drivers, musicians, vets, etc etc... In fact, it doesn't leave much left for him really does it? Are you saying Digwon is everyone's favourite Santa come Christmas time?
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Post by ringdisco on Oct 14, 2014 19:15:57 GMT 1
This has probably been posted earlier, however its an interesting read. www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evansSeems a strange case, If not remembering having sex is rape then I was raped by several women on numerous occasions whilst at Uni. Several of whom if I had any recollection, as low as my standards, I would have definitely told them to do one. I also woke up when travelling around the world with 2 girls in a bed, when I only took one back, I have a very faint recollection of the other one who was her mate "getting involved" but couldn't be sure..... For what its worth, before I read the case notes and still now, a convicted rapist isn't a role model that young children should aspire to be. They wouldn't allow a teacher convicted of rape to teach again, so I say that crimes of this severity should mean your not allowed to be in a position to influence/be a role model to children. This is even more ludicrous than your transfer rumours, Super.
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Post by andyeastleake on Oct 14, 2014 19:16:45 GMT 1
Joe
To be fair I fear you're missing the point I was trying to make.
The prosecution's case appeared to rest on the fact the girl was incapable of giving consent (please correct my understanding if I'm wrong). There is no claim she refused consent as the girl cannot recall that point of the evening.
To take a view she became lees capable of consent as the night progressed appears to have little logic to me (if anything you'd think she'd sober up).
I'm not arrogant with regard to the jury, I accept I didn't hear all the evidence. However in what appears a mountain of comment on the case, I've not seen anything to suggest there was any evidence that would suggest or explain why the girl should become less capable of consent as she spent time in that hotel room. Again if I'm wrong please advise me of the evidence.
If there is some reason TBH I'd like to understand it. It might increase my faith in the justice system.
I'm not sure why the reference to Guildford 4 should be considered offensive. Barbie seems to feel CE should apologise. My point was simply attempting to outline that miscarriages of justice do take place (that point is surely true beyond debate). If there has been a miscarriage of justice (and CE clearly appears to feel there has) why should he apologise?
Barbie and yourself seem to be simply dismissing any possibility of that scenario whatsoever. TBH I'm not sure from what I've seen and read I understand why you should be so strong in that opinion.
All I'm trying to understand is why the jury felt CE was guilty but that Mcdonald was innocent based on the girl's ability (or not) to be capable of giving consent.
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Post by 3Pipe on Oct 14, 2014 19:22:51 GMT 1
Are you saying Digwon is everyone's favourite Santa come Christmas time? Yes. Yes, I am.
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Post by andyeastleake on Oct 14, 2014 19:23:04 GMT 1
Joe
Another point for what it's worth. I'don't believe I'm defending a convicted rapist I'm trying to understand why he was convicted.
I don't believe those two things are necessarily the same at all.
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Post by Derby Blue on Oct 14, 2014 19:48:28 GMT 1
I think if he's served his sentence (whether it was long enough is another matter), he should be allowed to play again. His job is to play football, not to be a role model.
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