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Post by Phil Starbuck - Legend! on Feb 16, 2015 22:25:27 GMT 1
The enormous terrace at Borussia Dortmund's ground shows how much a return to terracing could revitalise the atmosphere at games. Of course it also helps that Bundesliga match tickets cost less than cinema tickets. Terracing wasn't a significant factor in the Hillsborough disaster, other than the fact that there's an obvious limit to how many people can fit in a seated stand. The Hillsborough justice campaign is in my opinion doing those 96 victims a disservice by focusing on standing being a significant factor. The main cause of the tragedy was criminal negligence of South Yorkshire Police. Focusing on kicking safe standing into the long grass just takes the pressure off those that are responsible and have yet to face justice. Two great points 61653. Given the history of the Hillsborough campaign, chipping away for justice against a backdrop of ignorance and misinformation over two and a half decades, the justice group has little option than to opose safe standing at this stage. It's a delicate political situation. In my opinion, should the current inquiry prove as transparent as it should and once and for all confirm the causal factors of the tradegy to be as we all suspect them to be, the campaign may gradually be in a position to take a different view on safe standing.
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Post by y2troy on Feb 16, 2015 22:26:54 GMT 1
Atmosphere would not improve having this at town , yeah u will argue there will be pockets of fans there and everywhere but then gonna be like a ghost town around the rest of the stadium then as the majority of the fans will go where the atmosphere goes and then leave the rest with none or little fans .so swings and roundabouts.
Our fanbase at the moment is not big enough to sustain a big enough difference for this to make an effect on our club ,granted if we got near the 20k mark everyone has been quoting this week then that would be an option ,but that not gonna happen untill near on in the premiership.
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Post by terriersyndrome on Feb 16, 2015 22:51:23 GMT 1
Surely the temp stand in the FML only has a certain life span? It will need to be rebuilt eventually, so perhaps a safe standing cowshed wouldn't be out of the question if the rules change.. A blue roof in the cowshed style with white external tubular supports would look amazing.. Anyone good at mocking these things up on a computer?
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Post by saintlyterrier on Feb 16, 2015 23:15:29 GMT 1
Notwithstanding most of you disagreing with me, I fully support your freedom to do so. However, I do not consider you should make patronising comments, based on no evidence at all, alleging I "do not have enough experience on atmospheres and what facilitates them to have a valid opinion."
I have visited many grounds, both with standing and without, as both a loyal supporter and a neutral, and as one professionally contibuting to development proposals.
That's my lot for this thread. I'll leave you to it....
I'll be at Charlton, and be happy to comment on the atmosphere there.
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Post by willsmeaton on Feb 17, 2015 2:56:40 GMT 1
It would make the experience far better,, could be done if it was ticket only with a rail seat. Doubt it will happen due to hillsborough etc and the families who lost loved ones. IMO they could do something along the lines of people signing a decleration saying it's no-ones fault if problems occur etc. For example if people want to stand, take flares into the ground etc they should be allowed to do so. If you son't want that sit in a seated area of the ground.
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Post by willsmeaton on Feb 17, 2015 3:01:08 GMT 1
"Am I one of the 4% who doesn't want "safe" standing? I've been thoroughly p***ed off by people standing around me, as was the case at Fulham. I get equally annoyed by groups of loons at St Mary's who stand and the stewards do sod all. A well designed all-seated ground can both allow good views and create a good atmosphere. I have bad knees that don't respond happily to standing up for 90 minutes, or bobbing up and down, but I'm against the concept of standing in principle. good post!! Some may want to stand, some may want to sit. Surely though it must be possible for football clubs to allocate for everyone, IE have a main stand for seating, one for standing and one for away fans etc.
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Post by leroy212 on Feb 17, 2015 9:56:41 GMT 1
Living near yeovil now and having been there to watch town, never had an issues with standing. So I can't see a reason not to reintroduce safe standing
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 10:31:06 GMT 1
It would make the experience far better,, could be done if it was ticket only with a rail seat. Doubt it will happen due to hillsborough etc and the families who lost loved ones. IMO they could do something along the lines of people signing a decleration saying it's no-ones fault if problems occur etc. For example if people want to stand, take flares into the ground etc they should be allowed to do so. If you son't want that sit in a seated area of the ground. Good luck with that one.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 20:31:41 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 20:42:57 GMT 1
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/bring-safe-standing-say-united-8658724I've copy and pasted an article from the Manchester evening news. A good read on safe standing. UNITED and City fans say they would welcome moves to introduce ‘safe standing’ at grounds after supporters across the country said they were overwhelmingly in favour. More than nine out of 10 fans nationally said they would welcome the move. All-seater grounds have been mandatory in England’s top two divisions since the start of the 1994-95 season. In recent years, the authorities have faced calls to re-introduce safe standing areas into the Premier League but all appeals have so far been unsuccessful. A survey by the Welsh Conservatives, which was backed by the Football Supporters’ Federation, has now revealed that 96 per cent people backed the idea of re-introducing standing zones. Those who preferred to sit said fans should be given the choice. A report says retractable ‘rail seats’, which are used at stadiums in Germany, could allow fans to stand safely thanks to a metal railing. A spokesman for the Independent Manchester United Supporters Association said: “We know from Germany that rail seats are safer. Safety incidents there are so low that they don’t even record them. “But if it is safer, then why are clubs insisting on continuing to put us in seats that are less safe?” Kevin Parker, general secretary of the Manchester City Supporters Club, said: “Standing at football is an emotive subject. At a lot of Premier League stadiums, standing does take place, but people are standing in areas designed for seating.” The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew Davies, who launched the report at Swansea City’s Liberty Stadium, has called on the next UK government to legislate for a pilot scheme in Wales. He said: “A tried and tested technique has been used in Germany. As a supporters’ organisation, it’d be for individual members to take their own views.” League One side Bristol City are the first British club to install rail seats, but they are only removed for rugby matches at the ground. Manchester Withington MP John Leech , a keen Manchester City fan, has long-backed safe standing. Michael Brunskill, from the Football Supporters Federation, said: “Safe standing exists on the continent and we believe it should be introduced into our grounds as well.” Standing is against Premier League rules - but not against the law 'Standing' terraces have been outlawed in the Premier League and the Championship since 1994 following Lord Taylor’s report on the Hillsborough disaster, which claimed the lives of 96 Liverpool supporters in 1989. Clubs can eject fans who refuse to sit, but many supporters have continued to stand in front of their seats. Some say sitting has changed the atmosphere during matches, but others say grounds are far safer now than 20 years ago. Many fans believe it is illegal to stand at matches in the Premier League or Championship, but the Football Supporters’ Federation says this is not the case. It says the law only provides that these clubs should provide seats for all supporters - not that supporters must sit on them. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport said in a letter to the federation in 2008: “At no point has it been argued that the individual spectator commits a criminal offence by standing in a seated area.” But standing in seated areas is contrary to ground regulations. It is therefore up to clubs to decide how they deal with it. The Football League’s model ground regulations say: “Nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress. Persistent standing in seated areas whilst play is in progress is strictly forbidden and may result in ejections from the ground.” Experts say the definition of ‘persistent’ is a grey area and it is difficult to define. Some clubs have been very strict in attempting to tackle persistent standers, while others have taken a more relaxed approach. Only the government has the power to change the legislation. Safe standing areas - featuring rail seating that can be removed to allow fans to stand, are used at stadiums in Germany. United’s executive vice-chairman Ed Woodward voiced his support for safe standing last year. Manchester City and other Premier League clubs are also said to be in favour of exploring the idea. Safe standing will mean cheaper tickets and a better atmosphere, says MP “I welcome calls from the Welsh Assembly for a pilot to introduce ‘safe standing’, writes Manchester Withington MP and Manchester City season ticket holder John Leech: "I support safe standing at football matches because it will lead to cheaper tickets and a better atmosphere at games, and make grounds safer. “It is also supported by the Football Supporters ‘Federation and Supporters Direct. "Currently, thousands of football fans stand up every week at every Premier League ground in areas that are not designed to stand up. "As a season ticket holder at Manchester City for 31 years, I have seen football change hugely since I first started going. "But safe standing is not a return to those terraces I remember in the 1980s. "It is the introduction of rail seating, which provides a rail on each level, so that people cannot be pushed forward into the person in front, but also has seats attached to the rail, so that safe standing areas can easily be converted into seating areas for European games. "Countries like Germany, Austria, Sweden, Canada and the United States, have safe standing for domestic fixture. A standing season ticket at Bayern Munich starts at £150, half the price of the cheapest season ticket at City. "Safe standing will be in the Liberal Democrat manifesto at the next election. I hope the other parties follow suit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 22:53:14 GMT 1
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Post by EastCoastTerrier on Feb 19, 2015 23:26:29 GMT 1
You would think the lower FM stand would be ideal for a trial run, but looks like the club has no interest in it.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 20, 2015 8:25:36 GMT 1
as stated before..the Hillsborough lobby are powerful.. posts on here who now put the whole incident down to just the police, prove that point much better than anyone ever could..
its all noise and bluster.. they wont have it, their supporters wont have it..
btw, I said the 'incident' not the aftermath..a very different thing..
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 9:06:46 GMT 1
as stated before..the Hillsborough lobby are powerful.. posts on here who now put the whole incident down to just the police, prove that point much better than anyone ever could.. its all noise and bluster.. they wont have it, their supporters wont have it.. btw, I said the 'incident' not the aftermath..a very different thing.. Eventually, the tide will turn.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 20, 2015 17:44:25 GMT 1
agreed, eventually... another 10 years plus...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 17:49:24 GMT 1
I think the tide is already turning, honestly do, and I expect atmospheres AND attendances to improve.
You can't sing up when your diaphragm is bent in half.
Rail seats are safer then normal seats and remove the possibility of overcrowding and crowd surges, no brainer. get em in.
People who sit can sit, people who stand can stand, safely.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 18:56:50 GMT 1
agreed, eventually... another 10 years plus... Half it. As cowshed or dead has already pointed out, rail seating is safer than folk standing in a seated area, why wait for an accident to do something about it?
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 20, 2015 19:06:06 GMT 1
I rest my case on previous posts.. its talk and there might even be meetings or high level talks about it, they will meet the immovable object...
the lobby is already canvassing support from the 600 and odd who will make the decision..nobody in power is brave/daft enough to go against it..
why change something that hasn't had an accident, yet???
have to agree to differ on this one, still confirm that I would like to stand..and do at away games when I can..
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Post by wildbillthetownfan on Feb 20, 2015 19:12:33 GMT 1
I will be standing at Brentford and i'm looking forward to it, it will be the first proper standing at a match since the last game at home to Blackpool which now seems so long a go. They should bring standing back if some fans want it and i believe it creates a far better atmosphere.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 19:58:28 GMT 1
I will be standing at Brentford and i'm looking forward to it, it will be the first proper standing at a match since the last game at home to Blackpool which now seems so long a go. They should bring standing back if some fans want it and i believe it creates a far better atmosphere. I'll be stood with you brother.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 20:08:29 GMT 1
I will be standing at Brentford and i'm looking forward to it, it will be the first proper standing at a match since the last game at home to Blackpool which now seems so long a go. They should bring standing back if some fans want it and i believe it creates a far better atmosphere. I'll be stood with you brother. I'll be stood with you as well. NSL on tour!
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Post by bullard on Feb 21, 2015 11:38:40 GMT 1
Fellow Terriers, I am a fourth year student at Nottingham Trent University and a life long town fan. As part of my studies I'm currently in the process of writing my dissertation on the topic of: ‘User experience on a match day: Should safe standing be reintroduced back into football’ The aim of this thread is just to create a talking point, I really need as many views, opinions, anything that I can get stuck into. I know that the NSL has worked hard to create a better atmosphere at the ground, to help improve the experience for the fan and ultimately help the team vocally. Would you like to see safe standing implemented at town in some form one day? Cheers. If you want an expert opinion contact the emergency planning college in Easingwold and try and get to speak to Ron Woodham or Keith Still. Ron has written the report for safe standing for the Prem.
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Post by bullard on Feb 21, 2015 11:53:42 GMT 1
English football needs safe standing. I've read a million articles and not once have I seen a valid reason as to why we don't. The NSL are fully supportive of any safe standing campaign. 95% of those that go in the NSL stand. I stand at every away game and it's more dangerous to stand behind a plastic seat than a T bar. The NSL is completely run and organised by the fans who go in there and without asking I know they all would support safe standing. Currently safe standing can't safely work in 'seated' stadiums, as obviously these stands were built for people to be sat down. The issue to do with standing in these areas is due to the potential of a crowd collapse and people falling forwards and basically crushing the person in front or in worst case scenario it happening in a top tier and someone going over the barriers. The clubs would therefore have to fork out to change their grounds to terraces, however in England the top two divisions have to in the rules (FA & UEFA) to be all seated. So in the instance of Borussia Dortmund, when they play in the champions league for example, they can't use their stands as standing areas and I believe they convert into seated areas, but which in turn obviously reduces the capacity. The issue with purposely built standing areas is that whilst the barriers in place down a terrace would manage a crush from back to front there is still concerns about a lateral crush across a stand. Hope that helps in terms of the reasoning, I personally can see both sides and am all for creating a better atmosphere but as it says, it has to be safe standing I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2015 12:07:08 GMT 1
If a club installed rail seating, obviously the seats pivot up and down to allow access along the row of seats. So, surely there is nothing to stop any club from installing rail seating?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2015 12:39:49 GMT 1
English football needs safe standing. I've read a million articles and not once have I seen a valid reason as to why we don't. The NSL are fully supportive of any safe standing campaign. 95% of those that go in the NSL stand. I stand at every away game and it's more dangerous to stand behind a plastic seat than a T bar. The NSL is completely run and organised by the fans who go in there and without asking I know they all would support safe standing. Currently safe standing can't safely work in 'seated' stadiums, as obviously these stands were built for people to be sat down. The issue to do with standing in these areas is due to the potential of a crowd collapse and people falling forwards and basically crushing the person in front or in worst case scenario it happening in a top tier and someone going over the barriers. The clubs would therefore have to fork out to change their grounds to terraces, however in England the top two divisions have to in the rules (FA & UEFA) to be all seated. So in the instance of Borussia Dortmund, when they play in the champions league for example, they can't use their stands as standing areas and I believe they convert into seated areas, but which in turn obviously reduces the capacity. The issue with purposely built standing areas is that whilst the barriers in place down a terrace would manage a crush from back to front there is still concerns about a lateral crush across a stand. Hope that helps in terms of the reasoning, I personally can see both sides and am all for creating a better atmosphere but as it says, it has to be safe standing I guess. I see your point of view mate but I don't agree with with. A safe standing area is safer than a seated area with people stood up in. I am in the NSL and have seen times when we've scored and fans have fallen onto the row in front. A mate of mine did at the forest game. The rails would prevent any crushing, as it's been proven in Germany. Bayern have a 25000 standing home end. Not once has there been a crush. What's needed is common sense, it's been lost in football. I see no valid reason that safe standing areas cannot be at the very least trialed. They are safer to stand in than a seat area. Fans will stand at football matches because to people like me, it's all I've ever done and If I was told by the club you either sit or be ejected, I'll never go again. The right thing to do is provide safe standing areas. If a corporate box can have a balcony with people stood watching the game, so can the 'cheap seats'.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 19:34:09 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 19:51:22 GMT 1
I've googled this story but can't see where it says how he will be allowed to use this terrace? Wouldn't the law have to change?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 19:57:34 GMT 1
I've googled this story but can't see where it says how he will be allowed to use this terrace? Wouldn't the law have to change? Yeah it doesn't give much information in that article, he has some sound points and ideas though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 20:03:19 GMT 1
I've googled this story but can't see where it says how he will be allowed to use this terrace? Wouldn't the law have to change? Yeah it doesn't give much information in that article, he has some sound points and ideas though. I agree he's got some good points and ideas. I've searched the internet for pros an cons to safe standing and still cannot find 1 valid reason as to why safe standing cannot be trialed. The law is beyond grainy. It's got a big grey area and needs addressing. If he is to go ahead and build a standing terrace then I suspect he will need to get the law changed which would be very difficult to do. The government won't change it based on his ideas and good points. I can't find anything on how the law could be changed.
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Post by benmsmith4 on Feb 26, 2015 17:42:33 GMT 1
Grimsby trailblazing www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/31645052Needs lower league teams to get on board to show that it can actually work without any issues, hopefully discrediting the arguments against it.
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