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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on May 5, 2021 15:05:43 GMT 1
Given that some folk think this thread (https://downatthemac.proboards.com/thread/115754/david-wagner-hero-villain) was written to shift the focus from Dean Hoyle to David Wagner, have at it. What's your verdict?
I'd say hero turned villain, if rumours of his conduct since deciding to sell the club are to be believed, and I'd wager some of them must have a degree of truth.
Colours to the mast - I have no time for Phil. I think he's a charlatan and is damaging the club. He should never have agreed to the deal if he felt he couldn't cope with the terms of it (even pre-covid).
I've also met Dean, Janet and their lads on several occasions, and on a personal level like all of them a hell of a lot. I have a great deal of respect for them all, and gratitude for the positive impact they had on the club and the community.
But, I'm a firm believer that if you take praise for your good deeds and successes, you have to take criticism for your bad deeds and failings.
I have no issue with Dean being repaid the money he lent the club, but if the speed/rate or repayment leaves the club hamstrung and inept, on the verge of relegation or worse, then I have to condemn that. Additionally, I think the decisions made upon promotion and since showed real naivety and believe this is the crux of the matter - when Webber left, we made a series of flawed, poor decisions.
Anyway, your views? Remember, let's not be abusive, but otherwise speak freely.
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Post by El Mel on May 5, 2021 15:25:30 GMT 1
Before the opinions fly in, as far as we know, Dean has had £15 million of his loans back, that's all, nowhere near enough to cripple the club as a lot of fans believe is the case.
Carry on.
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on May 5, 2021 15:39:42 GMT 1
I don't know how to feel.
He's a businessman first. As a fan he promised a legacy and he failed to deliver (up to now anyway). I bet it hurts him more than we realise but he's just one man (with one mans money) and ultimately could not do it all on his own.
So on one hand Dean is a legend. Without him and his stewardship we would never have achieved a place at the top table.
On the other, I don't like the rumours of what has happened lately at the club. It leaves a bad taste.
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Post by morleyterrier on May 5, 2021 15:39:53 GMT 1
Don't get me started.
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on May 5, 2021 15:45:15 GMT 1
no ones a hero in sport.
There are those who achieved wildly beyond supporters dreams.
That's Dean, Wagner and the promotion squad..
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Post by turbo2 on May 5, 2021 15:51:34 GMT 1
Before the opinions fly in, as far as we know, Dean has had £15 million of his loans back, that's all, nowhere near enough to cripple the club as a lot of fans believe is the case. Carry on. This time last year it stood at around £27m, any more is hearsay until the accounts are published for 2021. Below is a link to the interview talking about it Personally think the total 61m he pumped in was his 'toy' money, and like most toys once youve finished with it, its worth nothing to you. I understand it was put in as loans and he never expected to get it back. Folk talking about the value of the club??? the club is worth nothing, it has shares in a stadium and had a wage bill that has ended up being a noose. The players value??? |
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Dan
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Post by Dan on May 5, 2021 15:53:50 GMT 1
The year is 2034. Town have just drawn away at Bristol City. Still the Town fans debate who to blame - Hoyle, Phil, Wagner, Pritchard, Diakhaby, Billing, Jarvis, DTS, Devlin, Webber, Campbell, Brooky or the shit dog badge
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on May 5, 2021 15:59:56 GMT 1
Could I suggest that the Admins merge with all the other Dean Hoyle threads  |
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Post by El Mel on May 5, 2021 16:12:04 GMT 1
Before the opinions fly in, as far as we know, Dean has had £15 million of his loans back, that's all, nowhere near enough to cripple the club as a lot of fans believe is the case. Carry on. This time last year it stood at around £27m, any more is hearsay until the accounts are published for 2021. Below is a link to the interview talking about it Personally think the total 61m he pumped in was his 'toy' money, and like most toys once youve finished with it, its worth nothing to you. I understand it was put in as loans and he never expected to get it back. Folk talking about the value of the club??? the club is worth nothing, it has shares in a stadium and had a wage bill that has ended up being a noose. The players value??? Who spends 10% of their and their families total wealth on toys, then gives it away to somebody else who they don't really know to play with? |
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on May 5, 2021 16:14:22 GMT 1
He is a hero in my eyes, he brought the most exciting decade of football in my 50 years of watching town. His revamp of the academy is pure genius
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Post by benhomly on May 5, 2021 16:15:41 GMT 1
The year is 2034. Town have just drawn away at Bristol City. Still the Town fans debate who to blame - Hoyle, Phil, Wagner, Pritchard, Diakhaby, Billing, Jarvis, DTS, Devlin, Webber, Campbell, Brooky or the shit dog badge Such is the nature of football and the passions that it brings. After all we still debate on here (at times) the lack of investment during the reigns of Bill Shankly and Ian Greaves so i'm sure you're right, in 13 years time those of us that are left will no doubt be debating this very subject* * as we lift our third European Super League in a row |
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Post by HuddsTerrier on May 5, 2021 16:24:04 GMT 1
Not a villian in my eyes
He's left the club in a better place than what he inherited - which for me is the measure of a job well done
We are now a Championship side - and it will be 10 years next season since we last played in the third tier (promoted in the 11/12 season).
We also have a far better training ground set up than in 2008
I've also banked memories that are priceless during his ownership
Obviously it could have be more but still "in the round" he's done a lot of good for the club
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on May 5, 2021 16:28:30 GMT 1
We will see how much money Dean has had back when we see the accounts.
The issue is that so much has be said about taking the parachute payments and that the club is bereft of any money for investing in the team, we have an issue has left a sour taste in the mouths of many a fan.
I hope that we can turn things around and as no other club in the Championship has gone under we must have some scope left to rebuild the team now that we have sold off a lot of players and reduced the wages considerably.
I personally have some doubts about our ability to spot the right players to do this. I will pass over the geriatrics that we have signed and look at the players we have signed and are reputed to be signing and these don't appear to fit the sort of game that CC was brought here to play.
Dean is still a 25% shareholder in the club so this can not all be down to Phil.
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Post by detox on May 5, 2021 16:34:32 GMT 1
I'm bored of this endless debate..what else is there to say that hasn't already been said 1,000 times...I'm waiting for maynards significant event..
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Post by lancsterrier on May 5, 2021 16:44:24 GMT 1
Neither, but none of my hard earned money (I am sure his millions were also) is going towards paying that loan.
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Post by Wings of a Duff on May 5, 2021 16:49:29 GMT 1
The year is 2034. Town have just drawn away at Bristol City. Still the Town fans debate who to blame - Hoyle, Phil, Wagner, Pritchard, Diakhaby, Billing, Jarvis, DTS, Devlin, Webber, Campbell, Brooky or the shit dog badge If we've managed a point at Ashton Gate, that's progress at least... |
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Post by Dan on May 5, 2021 16:57:45 GMT 1
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on May 5, 2021 17:31:11 GMT 1
This time last year it stood at around £27m, any more is hearsay until the accounts are published for 2021. Below is a link to the interview talking about it Personally think the total 61m he pumped in was his 'toy' money, and like most toys once youve finished with it, its worth nothing to you. I understand it was put in as loans and he never expected to get it back. Folk talking about the value of the club??? the club is worth nothing, it has shares in a stadium and had a wage bill that has ended up being a noose. The players value??? Who spends 10% of their and their families total wealth on toys, then gives it away to somebody else who they don't really know to play with? No disrespect but when you have so much money it doesn't really matter how much you give away it doesn't really affect your 'families wealth'. He chose to give that away and I'm sure he consulted with his missus and I'm sure no one is on bread and water in the Hoyle household or gone without. Aren't his children adults now? Its not as if they are still dependents. I have no real sympathy with him over any of the criticism he takes, he took the plaudits when things were going well now its time to take some flak for anything thats gone wrong that he's contributed whether the mistakes were made in good faith or not. |
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Post by turbo2 on May 5, 2021 17:32:08 GMT 1
This time last year it stood at around £27m, any more is hearsay until the accounts are published for 2021. Below is a link to the interview talking about it Personally think the total 61m he pumped in was his 'toy' money, and like most toys once youve finished with it, its worth nothing to you. I understand it was put in as loans and he never expected to get it back. Folk talking about the value of the club??? the club is worth nothing, it has shares in a stadium and had a wage bill that has ended up being a noose. The players value??? Who spends 10% of their and their families total wealth on toys, then gives it away to somebody else who they don't really know to play with? Nobody in usual circumstances. But I didn’t tel him to put the money in. He decided to do it and took all the plaudits for it. He spoke about it many times over the years. His toy is basically worth bugger all due to us not owning anything apart from having crap players on huge contracts that he signed up. Like I say, he’s taken 27m as documented. That’s got to have an affect on our ability to compete. Who knows if he’s had any more (only him and Phil??) It’s totally his choice, personally I don’t like it and defo don’t think PH should have got involved with it |
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Post by keithAM11532 on May 5, 2021 17:38:07 GMT 1
I don't think any right minded person can begrudge Dean taking his money back, but we can bemoan the manner in which he has achieved it. You should have sold the club for cash - to someone with enough money to pay you back - not (for still an undisclosed fee - i.e nothing) to your partner in crime who will repay you from the parachute payments. That's tainting your magnificent legacy.
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Jimuano
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Post by Jimuano on May 5, 2021 17:39:13 GMT 1
Dean has said before that he never expected to get any of his disposable income cash injections/ loans back from the club BUT he is now taking them back out of funds designed to help relegated clubs stabilise/ when the chips are down.
He never had the ambition of being promoted to the top league and got extremely lucky in a lot of ways. As everyone has been through ad nauseum, the promotion presented the biggest opportunity in HTAFC's modern existence - Most of us left Wembley thinking "fantastic, at the very least, all of that cash will drag us up from being perennial relegation strugglers, and set us up to be a future mid-table/ playoff challenging championship club."
With Dean at the helm, a succession of awful decisions, plus his sale terms to the new owner - and the decision that he actually does want his money back now - looks like it has put paid to that theory.
That said, he oversaw some really good years so I guess it's whether those periods outweigh what is happening currently which would decide if he was a hero or villain.
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Post by Mecha Corte on May 5, 2021 17:44:36 GMT 1
The year is 2034. Town have just drawn away at Bristol City. Still the Town fans debate who to blame - Hoyle, Phil, Wagner, Pritchard, Diakhaby, Billing, Jarvis, DTS, Devlin, Webber, Campbell, Brooky or the shit dog badge You really need to clarify, this drawn game at Ashton Gate, was it a league match or in the cup and what divisions are the two sides in ? |
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Post by impact on May 5, 2021 17:45:14 GMT 1
Before the opinions fly in, as far as we know, Dean has had £15 million of his loans back, that's all, nowhere near enough to cripple the club as a lot of fans believe is the case. Carry on. This time last year it stood at around £27m, any more is hearsay until the accounts are published for 2021. Below is a link to the interview talking about it Personally think the total 61m he pumped in was his 'toy' money, and like most toys once youve finished with it, its worth nothing to you. I understand it was put in as loans and he never expected to get it back. Folk talking about the value of the club??? the club is worth nothing, it has shares in a stadium and had a wage bill that has ended up being a noose. The players value??? The 61m (I think it was 63m but may be wrong) is a total bollocks number Phil exaggerated for no reason other than to pull the woe is me card. Dean had put 16m in that season to cover the gap between money being spent and tv money coming in. He then took the money back out when it came in. He'd done this on numerous occasions in the past. So yes, whilst Phil was being technically correct as that's how much was owed at that time, he well knew that 16m of that was a short term measure and would be going out shortly after. It's saying stuff like that that means he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt when maybe he could be afforded it. |
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Post by Mastercracker on May 5, 2021 17:46:05 GMT 1
Left the club a division higher than he found it, with an actual training ground, but one hand tied behind its back.
Could have left it completely transformed with a premier league standard training ground and a much improved infrastructure, but chose not to.
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Post by htfctx on May 5, 2021 17:46:33 GMT 1
HERO
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Post by detox on May 5, 2021 18:00:35 GMT 1
if that's it, i was hoping for more...an Arab sheike maybe, billions to spend..lifelong Town fan... |
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Post by impact on May 5, 2021 18:01:02 GMT 1
As for Dean, I have much more to thank him for than criticise him for.
Look how long it took Sheff Utd to get out of league 1 after losing to us. I firmly believe that without Dean we'd still be down there chasing stars like Malvin Kamara and Luke Beckett.
Under his stewardship we saw some great nights and celebration we hadn't seen since 95. He was pumping 5m a year into the club to allow us to do this.
Our promotion was mostly down to Wagner. But Dean had to take the punt on him. It could easily have gone the wrong way and we'd be back in league 1. We know about the problems when we got to the prem. We overspent and weren't run well behind the scenes. But that day at Wembley and that night at Stamford Bridge are 2 memories that will stick with me forever, amongst many others. And they weren't possible without Dean.
My view is where he let himself down is when he stopped doing what had made him so popular. He wasn't open with the fans. He took the adolation of the support in that last game and left the loan repayments hidden until they appeared in the accounts. Once the deal was agreed, which I think it had been by then, he could have explained what he was doing and why. Instead he hid away and let other people uncover it whilst taking all the plaudits.
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Post by gingerc on May 5, 2021 18:57:22 GMT 1
The year is 2034. Town have just drawn away at Bristol City. Still the Town fans debate who to blame - Hoyle, Phil, Wagner, Pritchard, Diakhaby, Billing, Jarvis, DTS, Devlin, Webber, Campbell, Brooky or the shit dog badge If we've managed a point at Ashton Gate, that's progress at least... It’ll have been a 1-1 draw with us having taken the lead through a Bristol City OG and then lost the lead sitting back trying to defend a 1-0 lead for the rest of the game. Keogh who is miraculously still contracted and picked in the starting XI at age 47 at fault for the goal. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 19:04:35 GMT 1
Before the opinions fly in, as far as we know, Dean has had £15 million of his loans back, that's all, nowhere near enough to cripple the club as a lot of fans believe is the case. Carry on. Yes, but the funds are committed, so effectively set aside for Hoyle in the current and future budget plans, effectively leaving us hamstrung. Ok ? Crack on Mel. |
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Post by El Mel on May 5, 2021 19:22:00 GMT 1
Before the opinions fly in, as far as we know, Dean has had £15 million of his loans back, that's all, nowhere near enough to cripple the club as a lot of fans believe is the case. Carry on. Yes, but the funds are committed, so effectively set aside for Hoyle in the current and future budget plans, effectively leaving us hamstrung. Ok ? Crack on Mel. Effectively meaning the club needs to cut the wage budget and quickly, which is exactly what they are doing. We could have carried on as we were of course, getting bummed by agents over the likes of Alex Pritchard. You people. |
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