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Post by Lard Buttie on Nov 19, 2014 16:44:44 GMT 1
Could anyone be so deluded as to believe it wasn't a poor decision? At one time criminals were expected to show contrition before being released early. If he has learnt nothing from his punishment what rehabilitation has there been and what will stop him from raping again? I completely agree. I've already said the hidden risk with him being back as a high profile footballer is the increased opportunity for the same thing to happen. He clearly has no understanding of consensual sex, and a huge ego. There are some people so deluded that not only do they think he did not do much wrong, they actually lay the responsibility for the crime at the feet of the victim. Pretty sick if you ask me but I'm a PC brigade, morally outraged, wishy washy, lefty, feminist. I think the 2.5 years he spent inside will no doubt be a deterrent.
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Post by terrierclare on Nov 19, 2014 16:51:33 GMT 1
I really wasn't going to post again but felt compelled after reading the bbc link, and forgive me if I've misunderstood it in anyway. Unfortunately the belief that women 'ask for it' is still deeply ingrained in some sections of male society. Before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying all men are the same, I believe the ones who are genuinely horrified by the act of rape do outnumber the ones who think it's something and nothing.
While I believe men have a responsibility to accept no means no or not force themselves on a drunken girl, I also believe women have a responsibility to try to keep themselves safe. However sometimes, no matter what precautions you have taken to be safe, events happen and something as simple as missing the last bus home can have far reaching consequences.
I understand the police now have more sympathy and understanding when faced with a victim than they used to, and that is good. There can't be many things worse than being hurt, scared and feeling vulnerable only to be told by an unsympathetic detective that 'you're a lying little bitch who's been screwing around and now got scared.' Horrible. But that's the way the police used to deal with things.
Back to Evans, forgive me but I can't feel any sympathy for the situation he finds himself in and never will. Also apologies to anyone who may be offended by my account but I believe it's so important we educate all our sons (and I have sons myself)to respect a woman's right to have a choice whether she consents or not. Until that happens women will always live in fear.
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Post by 3Pipe on Nov 19, 2014 16:52:10 GMT 1
I've already said the hidden risk with him being back as a high profile footballer is the increased opportunity for the same thing to happen. I'd say the complete opposite.
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Post by 3Pipe on Nov 19, 2014 16:56:08 GMT 1
This guy could have his own fan base on here. At least this debate is bringing out a full spectrum of people's real views...enlightening at both ends imo- educated forward thinking from some, misogynistic, ignorant and blinkered from others and some powerful & relevant first hand accounts from others. You either need to look up the definition of the word and edit your post or provide some quotes to back up this allegation.
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Post by lankystreak on Nov 19, 2014 17:14:51 GMT 1
Could anyone be so deluded as to believe it wasn't a poor decision? At one time criminals were expected to show contrition before being released early. If he has learnt nothing from his punishment what rehabilitation has there been and what will stop him from raping again? I completely agree. I've already said the hidden risk with him being back as a high profile footballer is the increased opportunity for the same thing to happen. He clearly has no understanding of consensual sex, and a huge ego. There are some people so deluded that not only do they think he did not do much wrong, they actually lay the responsibility for the crime at the feet of the victim. Pretty sick if you ask me but I'm a PC brigade, morally outraged, wishy washy, lefty, feminist. Given the fact the rape he was found guilty of was one where the victim had no knowledge of who he was or what was happenning how does your comment make any sense?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 17:19:58 GMT 1
This guy could have his own fan base on here. At least this debate is bringing out a full spectrum of people's real views...enlightening at both ends imo- educated forward thinking from some, misogynistic, ignorant and blinkered from others and some powerful & relevant first hand accounts from others. You either need to look up the definition of the word and edit your post or provide some quotes to back up this allegation. I assure I'm fully aware of it's definition. Provide quotes? Are you for real? I can't change anyone's opinion on here but I will leave it up to individuals to read 30 pages littered with implicit and sometimes explicit examples.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 17:23:35 GMT 1
I completely agree. I've already said the hidden risk with him being back as a high profile footballer is the increased opportunity for the same thing to happen. He clearly has no understanding of consensual sex, and a huge ego. There are some people so deluded that not only do they think he did not do much wrong, they actually lay the responsibility for the crime at the feet of the victim. Pretty sick if you ask me but I'm a PC brigade, morally outraged, wishy washy, lefty, feminist. Given the fact the rape he was found guilty of was one where the victim had no knowledge of who he was or what was happenning how does your comment make any sense? Given that Evans thinks he did nothing at all wrong yet was found guitky of rape then I think it's absolutely possible he'll reoffend. He will have money, fame again- what women want according to Ched. In what way had he been rehabilitated?
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Post by lankystreak on Nov 19, 2014 17:31:34 GMT 1
Given the fact the rape he was found guilty of was one where the victim had no knowledge of who he was or what was happenning how does your comment make any sense? Given that Evans thinks he did nothing at all wrong yet was found guitky of rape then I think it's absolutely possible he'll reoffend. He will have money, fame again- what women want according to Ched. In what way had he been rehabilitated? You haven't answered the original question I posed......
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Post by 3Pipe on Nov 19, 2014 17:33:01 GMT 1
You haven't answered the original question I posed...... Probably can't hear you way up there.
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Post by 3Pipe on Nov 19, 2014 17:34:44 GMT 1
You either need to look up the definition of the word and edit your post or provide some quotes to back up this allegation. I assure I'm fully aware of it's definition. Provide quotes? Are you for real? I can't change anyone's opinion on here but I will leave it up to individuals to read 30 pages littered with implicit and sometimes explicit examples. Too right I'm for fucking real. You accuse folk on here of being misogynistic without a shred to back it up.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 17:35:36 GMT 1
Given that Evans thinks he did nothing at all wrong yet was found guitky of rape then I think it's absolutely possible he'll reoffend. He will have money, fame again- what women want according to Ched. In what way had he been rehabilitated? You haven't answered the original question I posed...... I don't really understand it Lanky.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 17:39:37 GMT 1
Given that Evans thinks he did nothing at all wrong yet was found guitky of rape then I think it's absolutely possible he'll reoffend. He will have money, fame again- what women want according to Ched. In what way had he been rehabilitated? You haven't answered the original question I posed...... Did she not know who he was, or does she have no recollection of him saying who he was? Serious question as I haven't studied the case in depth, but there is a difference between the 2.
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Post by 3Pipe on Nov 19, 2014 17:40:58 GMT 1
I don't really understand it Lanky. That's because you need to think it through Joe before you come charging in on your big white horse calling folk misogynists.
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Post by lankystreak on Nov 19, 2014 17:41:11 GMT 1
Could anyone be so deluded as to believe it wasn't a poor decision? At one time criminals were expected to show contrition before being released early. If he has learnt nothing from his punishment what rehabilitation has there been and what will stop him from raping again? I completely agree. I've already said the hidden risk with him being back as a high profile footballer is the increased opportunity for the same thing to happen. He clearly has no understanding of consensual sex, and a huge ego. There are some people so deluded that not only do they think he did not do much wrong, they actually lay the responsibility for the crime at the feet of the victim. Pretty sick if you ask me but I'm a PC brigade, morally outraged, wishy washy, lefty, feminist. OK, I'll try again...... I have highlighted the same section above with the pertinent part of the statement highlighted. You say that him returning as a high profile footballer increases the likelihood of the same offence being committed again, how?? The woman was incapable of recognising or reacting to him so how does his profession have anything to do with this?? This crime had nothing to do with the fact he was a footballer.
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Post by lankystreak on Nov 19, 2014 17:42:50 GMT 1
You haven't answered the original question I posed...... Did she not know who he was, or does she have no recollection of him saying who he was? Serious question as I haven't studied the case in depth, but there is a difference between the 2. She knew who he was in general, but the case obviously rests on the fact that she had no idea what was going on when he entered as she wasn't lucid enough to give consent and can't remember the event.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Nov 19, 2014 17:43:28 GMT 1
I think to generalise that all police officers have dealt with some rapes in the way you describe is similarly as unhelpful and untrue as most generalisations.
the detectives I know have been in the job a long time and would see a serious case as a chance for them to prove their worth and they would go all out to find the evidence required to progress the matter. If it isn't there or its sullied with drink/drugs, very hazy memories or just downright guessing then its actually their job to produce the case as it is, not how one of the parties would prefer it to be.
We wont do anything much as a nation to curtail the abuse of drugs/alcohol so the Evans scenario will happen again and again. We wont stop people taking advantage of others and if we don't try to stop people making themselves easy victims then it will just spiral.
Ask a police officer, the rules of evidence and the rights of the offender are such now that getting a conviction on good hard evidence is hard enough. Add in drunkenness, mental health mitigation and all the other 'water muddying' exercises and it will become nigh on impossible.
Until proved otherwise, Evans is guilty. The Police and the CPS did what they are supposed to do. The rest is about society at large.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 17:59:17 GMT 1
I assure I'm fully aware of it's definition. Provide quotes? Are you for real? I can't change anyone's opinion on here but I will leave it up to individuals to read 30 pages littered with implicit and sometimes explicit examples. Too right I'm for fucking real. You accuse folk on here of being misogynistic without a shred to back it up. Who are you trying to defend? Those denying it was rape, denying he did anything at all wrong? People blaming the victim for being drunk? People demeaning the victim and casting aspersions about her 'motives' social class, morals etc? Those bleating on about false rape allegations which represent a tiny % of reported rapes never mind unreported sexual offences. There has been pages centred around HER actions and justifications for a convicted rapist. Do you think that is evidence of entrenched prejudiced beliefs against women a defined as misogyny wiki as below? "... expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women". The point was made by Ted I think that attitudes would be different and the offence involved children. He makes a good point, which was almost exclusively ignored, it being too sensiive and also because it highlighted exactly what I'm talking about. We all like to think we're modern open minded non prejudiced thinkers & many today are, but an issue like this highlights deeply, historically entrenched views often that we as society, or individually are not actively aware of. Like I said having the debate is the good thing that's come out of this episode.
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Post by lankystreak on Nov 19, 2014 18:01:08 GMT 1
I think to generalise that all police officers have dealt with some rapes in the way you describe is similarly as unhelpful and untrue as most generalisations. the detectives I know have been in the job a long time and would see a serious case as a chance for them to prove their worth and they would go all out to find the evidence required to progress the matter. If it isn't there or its sullied with drink/drugs, very hazy memories or just downright guessing then its actually their job to produce the case as it is, not how one of the parties would prefer it to be. We wont do anything much as a nation to curtail the abuse of drugs/alcohol so the Evans scenario will happen again and again. We wont stop people taking advantage of others and if we don't try to stop people making themselves easy victims then it will just spiral. Ask a police officer, the rules of evidence and the rights of the offender are such now that getting a conviction on good hard evidence is hard enough. Add in drunkenness, mental health mitigation and all the other 'water muddying' exercises and it will become nigh on impossible. Until proved otherwise, Evans is guilty. The Police and the CPS did what they are supposed to do. The rest is about society at large. Having had first hand experience of WY Police Serious Crimes Department I can fully vouch for the above and I also agree with a lot of what you post on this subject Galpharm. I have mentioned on here before that I have first hand experience of a false rape allegation. I also have first hand experience of a situation like this, in my opinion..... A few years back I went out after work in Leeds and as I hadn't been out for a while was suitably leathered before returning to Wakefield at around 10 o'clock, I met my friends who have since admitted to me that they thought I was on cocaine at the time as I was in such a state (I have never touched any form of drugs), I continued to drink for the remainder of the evening (at least a further 4 hours) and can't remember a thing of what happenned after about 5 minutes after arriving in Wakefield until I awoke the next morning in a strange bed with a woman who if I was of sound mind I would NEVER have consented to. As my friends would no doubt agree, I was in no fit state to consent to anyone that night, now, was I raped or was I simply a drunken young man who made a mistake??? If we are saying that Evans should have known that his victim was too drunk to consent then should the woman who took me home have known the same? I only use the above to illustrate this scenario from the opposite side of the coin, I aren't comparing the 2 events directly. But in cases like this it is going to get to the point where the only way you can prove 100% there was consent is to film the whole thing.
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Post by lankystreak on Nov 19, 2014 18:05:52 GMT 1
Too right I'm for fucking real. You accuse folk on here of being misogynistic without a shred to back it up. Who are you trying to defend? Those denying it was rape, denying he did anything at all wrong? People blaming the victim for being drunk? People demeaning the victim and casting aspersions about her 'motives' social class, morals etc? Those bleating on about false rape allegations which represent a tiny % of reported rapes never mind unreported sexual offences. There has been pages centred around HER actions and justifications for a convicted rapist. Do you think that is evidence of entrenched prejudiced beliefs against women a defined as misogyny wiki as below? "... expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women". The point was made by Ted I think that attitudes would be different and the offence involved children. He makes a good point, which was almost exclusively ignored, it being too sensiive and also because it highlighted exactly what I'm talking about. We all like to think we're modern open minded non prejudiced thinkers & many today are, but an issue like this highlights deeply, historically entrenched views often that we as society, or individually are not actively aware of. Like I said having the debate is the good thing that's come out of this episode. Joe, all the comments have been relative to this case, not to women on the whole, THAT is why I think the likes of myself and Ted think your comments are out of order.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 19, 2014 18:10:21 GMT 1
Who are you trying to defend? Those denying it was rape, denying he did anything at all wrong? People blaming the victim for being drunk? People demeaning the victim and casting aspersions about her 'motives' social class, morals etc? Those bleating on about false rape allegations which represent a tiny % of reported rapes never mind unreported sexual offences. There has been pages centred around HER actions and justifications for a convicted rapist. Do you think that is evidence of entrenched prejudiced beliefs against women a defined as misogyny wiki as below? "... expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women". The point was made by Ted I think that attitudes would be different and the offence involved children. He makes a good point, which was almost exclusively ignored, it being too sensiive and also because it highlighted exactly what I'm talking about. We all like to think we're modern open minded non prejudiced thinkers & many today are, but an issue like this highlights deeply, historically entrenched views often that we as society, or individually are not actively aware of. Like I said having the debate is the good thing that's come out of this episode. Joe, all the comments have been relative to this case, not to women on the whole, THAT is why I think the likes of myself and Ted think your comments are out of order.
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Post by 3Pipe on Nov 19, 2014 18:13:03 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 18:15:07 GMT 1
I completely agree. I've already said the hidden risk with him being back as a high profile footballer is the increased opportunity for the same thing to happen. He clearly has no understanding of consensual sex, and a huge ego. There are some people so deluded that not only do they think he did not do much wrong, they actually lay the responsibility for the crime at the feet of the victim. Pretty sick if you ask me but I'm a PC brigade, morally outraged, wishy washy, lefty, feminist. OK, I'll try again...... I have highlighted the same section above with the pertinent part of the statement highlighted. You say that him returning as a high profile footballer increases the likelihood of the same offence being committed again, how?? The woman was incapable of recognising or reacting to him so how does his profession have anything to do with this?? This crime had nothing to do with the fact he was a footballer. I considered you may have meant this but discounted it. Ofcourse it was to do with his fame wealth and status. You're focussing on the victims actions rather than the culprit. He stated himself he had what women wanted money, fame etc.. He & Mcdonald planned the night, '"got a girl" and then had her. There was a clear sense of he could do what he did because of who he was? Do u think it 'normal' or acceptable behaviour to go along to your pre booked hotel room and start having sex with a girl your mate had 'pulled'? She was too drunk to consent I sex but you went ahead with it anyway? This was essentially the argument made by the prosecution. The jury believed it and so do I. It is not the first incident involving footballers. I'm sure there have been many others guilty of worse than Evans but they either bought off the victim or discredited her sufficiently and did not get police/cps backing. This case has shown that rich footballers are not above the law. His profession and the status that comes with it was central to the offence in it's conception, the act itself and his defence.
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Post by lankystreak on Nov 19, 2014 18:18:27 GMT 1
I see where you are coming from with that Joe, thanks for explaining.
Ted, 3 Pipes, massive apologies!!!!
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Nov 19, 2014 18:22:48 GMT 1
OK, I'll try again...... I have highlighted the same section above with the pertinent part of the statement highlighted. You say that him returning as a high profile footballer increases the likelihood of the same offence being committed again, how?? The woman was incapable of recognising or reacting to him so how does his profession have anything to do with this?? This crime had nothing to do with the fact he was a footballer. I considered you may have meant this but discounted it. Ofcourse it was to do with his fame wealth and status. You're focussing on the victims actions rather than the culprit. He stated himself he had what women wanted money, fame etc.. He & Donaldson planned the night, '"got a girl" and then had her. There was a clear sense of he could do what he did because of who he was? Do u think it 'normal' or acceptable behaviour to go along to your pre booked hotel room and start having sex with a girl your mate had 'pulled'? She was too drunk to consent I sex but you went ahead with it anyway? This was essentially the argument made by the prosecution. The jury believed it and so do I. It is not the first incident involving footballers. I'm sure there have been many others guilty of worse than Evans but they either bought off the victim or discredited her sufficiently and did not get police/cps backing. This case has shown that rich footballers are not above the law. His profession and the status that comes with it was central to the offence in it's conception, the act itself and his defence. Joe, I just want to add before Brum's solicitors find out and after all Clayton Donaldson is a yorkshire lad that it was Clayton McDonald (a former Man City team mate of Evans) who was on trial with Evans.
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Post by 3Pipe on Nov 19, 2014 18:27:32 GMT 1
Who are you trying to defend? Those denying it was rape, denying he did anything at all wrong? People blaming the victim for being drunk? People demeaning the victim and casting aspersions about her 'motives' social class, morals etc? Those bleating on about false rape allegations which represent a tiny % of reported rapes never mind unreported sexual offences. There has been pages centred around HER actions and justifications for a convicted rapist. Do you think that is evidence of entrenched prejudiced beliefs against women a defined as misogyny wiki as below? "... expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women". The point was made by Ted I think that attitudes would be different and the offence involved children. He makes a good point, which was almost exclusively ignored, it being too sensiive and also because it highlighted exactly what I'm talking about. We all like to think we're modern open minded non prejudiced thinkers & many today are, but an issue like this highlights deeply, historically entrenched views often that we as society, or individually are not actively aware of. Like I said having the debate is the good thing that's come out of this episode. And like I said, find me a woman-hating misogynistic post from someone who has contributed to the thread. I'm defending nobody, I've already said I find all the characters in this case distasteful at best. 'People blaming the victim for being drunk?' Who else is to blame for her being kaylied? She was a binge drinker, she was a coke head, she was a doper, these are FACTS Joe, these are facts that have come from blood tests carried out by highly trained specialists. If they go against your pure white visions of the 'victim' I'm sorry to burst your bubble Joe. Nobody is saying rape isn't a terrible crime, it's one of the very worst. Nobody is hating on women in general, nobody is hating on her. Personally, I feel sorry for her whether she consented to sex or not.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Nov 19, 2014 18:36:00 GMT 1
Joe.. talk to a police officer or someone else who is wading through the extra hundreds of reports of rapes now coming in. They are a minefield of drink/drugs on both sides, there are numerous with third parties and even 4th and 5th parties being involved somehow. many with phone and I pad 'adventures' recorded. Lots where the victim cant even remember the name of the other party and many where there are now multiple complaints from the same person spanning over a period of time and different events/scenes/third parties? ? due to the 'adventures' turning up via social media and via phones and husbands boyfriends becoming 'aware'... its not going to get any less ugly or confusing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 18:39:27 GMT 1
Who are you trying to defend? Those denying it was rape, denying he did anything at all wrong? People blaming the victim for being drunk? People demeaning the victim and casting aspersions about her 'motives' social class, morals etc? Those bleating on about false rape allegations which represent a tiny % of reported rapes never mind unreported sexual offences. There has been pages centred around HER actions and justifications for a convicted rapist. Do you think that is evidence of entrenched prejudiced beliefs against women a defined as misogyny wiki as below? "... expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women". The point was made by Ted I think that attitudes would be different and the offence involved children. He makes a good point, which was almost exclusively ignored, it being too sensiive and also because it highlighted exactly what I'm talking about. We all like to think we're modern open minded non prejudiced thinkers & many today are, but an issue like this highlights deeply, historically entrenched views often that we as society, or individually are not actively aware of. Like I said having the debate is the good thing that's come out of this episode. Joe, all the comments have been relative to this case, not to women on the whole, THAT is why I think the likes of myself and Ted think your comments are out of order. Unless I've missed something in this debate I don't think Ted thinks that?
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 19, 2014 18:44:25 GMT 1
Joe.. talk to a police officer or someone else who is wading through the extra hundreds of reports of rapes now coming in. They are a minefield of drink/drugs on both sides, there are numerous with third parties and even 4th and 5th parties being involved somehow. many with phone and I pad 'adventures' recorded. Lots where the victim cant even remember the name of the other party and many where there are now multiple complaints from the same person spanning over a period of time and different events/scenes/third parties? ? due to the 'adventures' turning up via social media and via phones and husbands boyfriends becoming 'aware'... its not going to get any less ugly or confusing. In Galpharm world it's almost as if rape doesn't exist !
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 18:52:21 GMT 1
I can't even get past Evans behaviour in tracking the girl down back to the hotel, that in itself is deplorable behaviour, aside of what did or did not ensue once he got there. The amount of defence he is getting on here is quite surprising to be honest.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 19, 2014 18:54:52 GMT 1
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