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Post by galpharm2400 on Nov 19, 2014 18:59:23 GMT 1
daft statement Ted.. making things harder to prove and harder to deal with is a trait of modern society, that's all. Evans is guilty of rape, society is guilty of allowing all the ingredients to make crime easier to commit, easier to get away with and easier to avoid any responsibility for it, on both sides. We then get outraged about it I read your posts, do me the courtesy of reading mine in total, not just picking bits and bobs out and passing a daft comment.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Nov 19, 2014 19:05:11 GMT 1
I can't even get past Evans behaviour in tracking the girl down back to the hotel, that in itself is deplorable behaviour, aside of what did or did not ensue once he got there. The amount of defence he is getting on here is quite surprising to be honest. He had prepaid for the room, so one would expect him to know which hotel it was? BTW this does NOT mean in anyway I defend his actions.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 19:07:09 GMT 1
I considered you may have meant this but discounted it. Ofcourse it was to do with his fame wealth and status. You're focussing on the victims actions rather than the culprit. He stated himself he had what women wanted money, fame etc.. He & Donaldson planned the night, '"got a girl" and then had her. There was a clear sense of he could do what he did because of who he was? Do u think it 'normal' or acceptable behaviour to go along to your pre booked hotel room and start having sex with a girl your mate had 'pulled'? She was too drunk to consent I sex but you went ahead with it anyway? This was essentially the argument made by the prosecution. The jury believed it and so do I. It is not the first incident involving footballers. I'm sure there have been many others guilty of worse than Evans but they either bought off the victim or discredited her sufficiently and did not get police/cps backing. This case has shown that rich footballers are not above the law. His profession and the status that comes with it was central to the offence in it's conception, the act itself and his defence. Joe, I just want to add before Brum's solicitors find out and after all Clayton Donaldson is a yorkshire lad that it was Clayton McDonald (a former Man City team mate of Evans) who was on trial with Evans. I have edited, thanks for pointing that out. I meant mcdonald.
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Post by terrierclare on Nov 19, 2014 19:12:04 GMT 1
I think to generalise that all police officers have dealt with some rapes in the way you describe is similarly as unhelpful and untrue as most generalisations. the detectives I know have been in the job a long time and would see a serious case as a chance for them to prove their worth and they would go all out to find the evidence required to progress the matter. If it isn't there or its sullied with drink/drugs, very hazy memories or just downright guessing then its actually their job to produce the case as it is, not how one of the parties would prefer it to be. We wont do anything much as a nation to curtail the abuse of drugs/alcohol so the Evans scenario will happen again and again. We wont stop people taking advantage of others and if we don't try to stop people making themselves easy victims then it will just spiral. Ask a police officer, the rules of evidence and the rights of the offender are such now that getting a conviction on good hard evidence is hard enough. Add in drunkenness, mental health mitigation and all the other 'water muddying' exercises and it will become nigh on impossible. Until proved otherwise, Evans is guilty. The Police and the CPS did what they are supposed to do. The rest is about society at large. I'm quoting the detective who first questioned me and every word is accurate, believe me I should know. I have also acknowledged that the police deal with victims differently now and said what a good thing that is. But when you're a scared 16 year old as I was the last thing I needed was some male detective saying horrible things to me. All I was trying to do was point out the way I was dealt with in comparison to how victims are treated now. The detectives you know were probably schoolboys at the time when I found myself being questioned and accused. You have absolutely no idea how long ago I'm referring to or the conversations that took place at the time. But I can tell you my account is accurate plus I do not make things up. I have no need to. As I said in my first post I entered the debate to try and bring a victim's perspective to the forum but I regret it now. The attitude some of you display is reminiscent of days of old when it was believed the victim was at fault and not the rapist. I really can't see that attitude changing in my lifetime and that's shameful. One thing many, not all, seem to forget in the cut and thrust of debate is that there is a victim in all this and that victim is not Evans. I don't think I can add anything further to this debate so this really is my last post and I want to thank those posters who have expressed any sort of understanding or sympathy. Perhaps there is hope. To those whose disregard for women comes through loud and clear I hope no female you know and love ever has to go through what I and countless others have.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 19, 2014 19:17:33 GMT 1
daft statement Ted.. making things harder to prove and harder to deal with is a trait of modern society, that's all. Evans is guilty of rape, society is guilty of allowing all the ingredients to make crime easier to commit, easier to get away with and easier to avoid any responsibility for it, on both sides. We then get outraged about it I read your posts, do me the courtesy of reading mine in total, not just picking bits and bobs out and passing a daft comment. You may read my posts.but then you just plough on regardless, ignoring direct questions as well as general points. the same point usually, over and over and over again.. Do not ever forget my friend, that if a man puts his penis in a woman's vagina, without her consent, then the onus of responsibility is with the MALE. It doesn't magic its way in there . And whilst you are next posting the same point re feckless alcohol riddled " victims" , please stop and consider the thousands and thousands of rapes that go unreported, because of fear towards the perpetrator, because of the fear of not being believed, because of the shockingly LOW conviction rates ETC ETC . Don't accuse me of misconstruing you mate cos there are usually 4-5 examples of your thoughts on each and every page it's all there in black and white
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 19, 2014 19:20:38 GMT 1
I think to generalise that all police officers have dealt with some rapes in the way you describe is similarly as unhelpful and untrue as most generalisations. the detectives I know have been in the job a long time and would see a serious case as a chance for them to prove their worth and they would go all out to find the evidence required to progress the matter. If it isn't there or its sullied with drink/drugs, very hazy memories or just downright guessing then its actually their job to produce the case as it is, not how one of the parties would prefer it to be. We wont do anything much as a nation to curtail the abuse of drugs/alcohol so the Evans scenario will happen again and again. We wont stop people taking advantage of others and if we don't try to stop people making themselves easy victims then it will just spiral. Ask a police officer, the rules of evidence and the rights of the offender are such now that getting a conviction on good hard evidence is hard enough. Add in drunkenness, mental health mitigation and all the other 'water muddying' exercises and it will become nigh on impossible. Until proved otherwise, Evans is guilty. The Police and the CPS did what they are supposed to do. The rest is about society at large. I'm quoting the detective who first questioned me and every word is accurate, believe me I should know. I have also acknowledged that the police deal with victims differently now and said what a good thing that is. But when you're a scared 16 year old as I was the last thing I needed was some male detective saying horrible things to me. All I was trying to do was point out the way I was dealt with in comparison to how victims are treated now. The detectives you know were probably schoolboys at the time when I found myself being questioned and accused. You have absolutely no idea how long ago I'm referring to or the conversations that took place at the time. But I can tell you my account is accurate plus I do not make things up. I have no need to. As I said in my first post I entered the debate to try and bring a victim's perspective to the forum but I regret it now. The attitude some of you display is reminiscent of days of old when it was believed the victim was at fault and not the rapist. I really can't see that attitude changing in my lifetime and that's shameful. One thing many, not all, seem to forget in the cut and thrust of debate is that there is a victim in all this and that victim is not Evans. I don't think I can add anything further to this debate so this really is my last post and I want to thank those posters who have expressed any sort of understanding or sympathy. Perhaps there is hope. To those whose disregard for women comes through loud and clear I hope no female you know and love ever has to go through what I and countless others have. Thanks for contributing Clare. Your posts have been massively appreciated by some.. You're right though attitudes aren't going to change any time soon . I feel quite comfortable with Joe using the word " mysoginistic" personally
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 19:37:32 GMT 1
Who are you trying to defend? Those denying it was rape, denying he did anything at all wrong? People blaming the victim for being drunk? People demeaning the victim and casting aspersions about her 'motives' social class, morals etc? Those bleating on about false rape allegations which represent a tiny % of reported rapes never mind unreported sexual offences. There has been pages centred around HER actions and justifications for a convicted rapist. Do you think that is evidence of entrenched prejudiced beliefs against women a defined as misogyny wiki as below? "... expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women". The point was made by Ted I think that attitudes would be different and the offence involved children. He makes a good point, which was almost exclusively ignored, it being too sensiive and also because it highlighted exactly what I'm talking about. We all like to think we're modern open minded non prejudiced thinkers & many today are, but an issue like this highlights deeply, historically entrenched views often that we as society, or individually are not actively aware of. Like I said having the debate is the good thing that's come out of this episode. And like I said, find me a woman-hating misogynistic post from someone who has contributed to the thread. I'm defending nobody, I've already said I find all the characters in this case distasteful at best. 'People blaming the victim for being drunk?' Who else is to blame for her being kaylied? She was a binge drinker, she was a coke head, she was a doper, these are FACTS Joe, these are facts that have come from blood tests carried out by highly trained specialists. If they go against your pure white visions of the 'victim' I'm sorry to burst your bubble Joe. Nobody is saying rape isn't a terrible crime, it's one of the very worst. Nobody is hating on women in general, nobody is hating on her. Personally, I feel sorry for her whether she consented to sex or not. Firstly, I was referring to the debate that's going on nationally. The bbc radio dj Nick Conrad's comments I would deem to be misogynistic "If you yank a dog's tail don't be surprised if it bites you' This said in relation the this rape case/rape cases in general- attention being on culpability of the female victim. He added: "If you don't wish to give out the wrong signals its probably best to keep your knickers on and not get into bed with him" Now I'm not saying there are as explicit views documented on here but there are no doubt sympathisers on here and those coming from a similar place. I have challenged them at the time or others have and I'm not going to start thread digging all over the place. However, going over the first 2 pages it has been said that "false accusation of rape is worse than rape" Whilst not explicitly misogynist in itself it is evidence of a contrary position to that that I take. (This is out of context though and the person who said this had personal reasons for saying it. If I start quoting comments that I believe back up my above stance I'll be here all night arguing with each individual, who has a right to defend himself, and probably already has. I take an extreme and for some, uncomfortable stance on this issue and am aware of that but there is no place for half hearted convictions on such matters and I am not alone in using this case as a way of widening the debate.
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Post by bro600 on Nov 19, 2014 19:54:50 GMT 1
Misogynist is a bit strong of a word to be labelled at anyone in this thread but i do believe that dependent on your life events, parentage, partnership experiences etc etc etc will determine how you view cases like Ched Evans's. You could also be swayed by reading his facebook page or website in the first place as well. It as been an interesting debate that is now turning into an hamster wheel of argument. I think there's a lot we can all agree on and there is a lot of middle ground where overlapping agreement is found. I think out of courtesy to a victim of one of the most heinous of crimes who as been so brave to share her feelings with us we should agree to rid DATM of this thread until there is at least something fresh about it to debate. Anyone agree?
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Post by Barbieterrier on Nov 19, 2014 20:13:30 GMT 1
I think to generalise that all police officers have dealt with some rapes in the way you describe is similarly as unhelpful and untrue as most generalisations. the detectives I know have been in the job a long time and would see a serious case as a chance for them to prove their worth and they would go all out to find the evidence required to progress the matter. If it isn't there or its sullied with drink/drugs, very hazy memories or just downright guessing then its actually their job to produce the case as it is, not how one of the parties would prefer it to be. We wont do anything much as a nation to curtail the abuse of drugs/alcohol so the Evans scenario will happen again and again. We wont stop people taking advantage of others and if we don't try to stop people making themselves easy victims then it will just spiral. Ask a police officer, the rules of evidence and the rights of the offender are such now that getting a conviction on good hard evidence is hard enough. Add in drunkenness, mental health mitigation and all the other 'water muddying' exercises and it will become nigh on impossible. Until proved otherwise, Evans is guilty. The Police and the CPS did what they are supposed to do. The rest is about society at large. I'm quoting the detective who first questioned me and every word is accurate, believe me I should know. I have also acknowledged that the police deal with victims differently now and said what a good thing that is. But when you're a scared 16 year old as I was the last thing I needed was some male detective saying horrible things to me. All I was trying to do was point out the way I was dealt with in comparison to how victims are treated now. The detectives you know were probably schoolboys at the time when I found myself being questioned and accused. You have absolutely no idea how long ago I'm referring to or the conversations that took place at the time. But I can tell you my account is accurate plus I do not make things up. I have no need to. As I said in my first post I entered the debate to try and bring a victim's perspective to the forum but I regret it now. The attitude some of you display is reminiscent of days of old when it was believed the victim was at fault and not the rapist. I really can't see that attitude changing in my lifetime and that's shameful. One thing many, not all, seem to forget in the cut and thrust of debate is that there is a victim in all this and that victim is not Evans. I don't think I can add anything further to this debate so this really is my last post and I want to thank those posters who have expressed any sort of understanding or sympathy. Perhaps there is hope. To those whose disregard for women comes through loud and clear I hope no female you know and love ever has to go through what I and countless others have. Being maybe the only other female poster on this thread I want to say that you made a brave choice to post what you have on this thread and I really hope you don't regret posting here. Your courage shines through I promise you and anyone that doubts your account should be ashamed. Getting on with your life after such a terrible crime and going on to have children - you've so much to be proud about. There is a lot of victim blaming not just in rape crimes but in other crimes too. It's very shallow to believe a victim deserves to be a victim under any circumstances. Do not let others narrow mindedness ever put you off having your say - you're in a much more informed position to comment than them given your circumstances and your post touched me more than you will know. UTT! x
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 20:20:31 GMT 1
Joe.. talk to a police officer or someone else who is wading through the extra hundreds of reports of rapes now coming in. They are a minefield of drink/drugs on both sides, there are numerous with third parties and even 4th and 5th parties being involved somehow. many with phone and I pad 'adventures' recorded. Lots where the victim cant even remember the name of the other party and many where there are now multiple complaints from the same person spanning over a period of time and different events/scenes/third parties? ? due to the 'adventures' turning up via social media and via phones and husbands boyfriends becoming 'aware'... its not going to get any less ugly or confusing. I really fail to see the significance of this or the point you are making. It is anecdotal and not reflective of the overall state of affairs imo. It may be true that there's an increase in the reporting of the type of incidents as above but I'm sure its tiny in comparison to the genuine rapes that are reported or that go unreported each year, or those that are reported but go unrecorded due to inability to prove a crime had been committed. In fact, in many of the cases you speak of I dare say they would be unrecorded and perhaps justifiably so. Are these crimes reason enough to not change the way our criminal justice system deals with rape allegations. Haven't recent events of the last 20 years in Rotherham proved reason enough for change and society as a whole to open its eyes. As Ted has pointed out succinctly above, I believe you (& others are missing the point. We live in a society where sexual exploitation of women is commonplace: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-30083835and where the non recording of crimes has again risen: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27226110. "Describing "workload pressure" being cited as the basis for not recording a report of rape, the report said: "In this example, it was considered that recording the crime would entail too much work, as the officer made a judgement that the circumstances of the complaint made it unlikely that the case would be prosecuted." This is the reality a genuine rape victim may be up against. A more hard line and consistent approach to dealing with sexual crimes and the reporting of, will have consequences of the odd time wasting investigation into a drunken consensual incident or someone's private marital affair. However, its a small price to pay for the powerful positive consequences for the thousands of victims of men and groups of men, often young women who are extremely vulnerable, and the way they are treated by authorities. It will also give increased courage to future victims to come forward and break out of abusive situations, knowing they will be heard and protected and action will be taken. Letting them know what has happened to them was wrong.
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Post by huddstim on Nov 19, 2014 20:23:31 GMT 1
Try looking up recidivism if you think he won't rape again
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Post by terrierclare on Nov 19, 2014 20:52:45 GMT 1
I'm quoting the detective who first questioned me and every word is accurate, believe me I should know. I have also acknowledged that the police deal with victims differently now and said what a good thing that is. But when you're a scared 16 year old as I was the last thing I needed was some male detective saying horrible things to me. All I was trying to do was point out the way I was dealt with in comparison to how victims are treated now. The detectives you know were probably schoolboys at the time when I found myself being questioned and accused. You have absolutely no idea how long ago I'm referring to or the conversations that took place at the time. But I can tell you my account is accurate plus I do not make things up. I have no need to. As I said in my first post I entered the debate to try and bring a victim's perspective to the forum but I regret it now. The attitude some of you display is reminiscent of days of old when it was believed the victim was at fault and not the rapist. I really can't see that attitude changing in my lifetime and that's shameful. One thing many, not all, seem to forget in the cut and thrust of debate is that there is a victim in all this and that victim is not Evans. I don't think I can add anything further to this debate so this really is my last post and I want to thank those posters who have expressed any sort of understanding or sympathy. Perhaps there is hope. To those whose disregard for women comes through loud and clear I hope no female you know and love ever has to go through what I and countless others have. Being maybe the only other female poster on this thread I want to say that you made a brave choice to post what you have on this thread and I really hope you don't regret posting here. Your courage shines through I promise you and anyone that doubts your account should be ashamed. Getting on with your life after such a terrible crime and going on to have children - you've so much to be proud about. There is a lot of victim blaming not just in rape crimes but in other crimes too. It's very shallow to believe a victim deserves to be a victim under any circumstances. Do not let others narrow mindedness ever put you off having your say - you're in a much more informed position to comment than them given your circumstances and your post touched me more than you will know. UTT! x Barbieterrier and others thank you for your support. Yes I had children and love them dearly but unfortunately the ordeal I went through made it harder and harder for me to sustain a normal relationship as time went on and my marriage broke up. He also couldn't deal with the fact that he thought I was stronger mentally than he was. All in all I've had a good life though as I was determined I wouldn't be beaten. I have a good, responsible job, love of family and friends and the animals in my life who all bring me so much joy. Plus I've also got my love and passion for Huddersfield Town. I've much to be thankful for. I am now going to delete my account but just want to say despite all our differing views we are all part of the HTAFC family. ?
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Post by bro600 on Nov 19, 2014 21:07:30 GMT 1
Being maybe the only other female poster on this thread I want to say that you made a brave choice to post what you have on this thread and I really hope you don't regret posting here. Your courage shines through I promise you and anyone that doubts your account should be ashamed. Getting on with your life after such a terrible crime and going on to have children - you've so much to be proud about. There is a lot of victim blaming not just in rape crimes but in other crimes too. It's very shallow to believe a victim deserves to be a victim under any circumstances. Do not let others narrow mindedness ever put you off having your say - you're in a much more informed position to comment than them given your circumstances and your post touched me more than you will know. UTT! x Barbieterrier and others thank you for your support. Yes I had children and love them dearly but unfortunately the ordeal I went through made it harder and harder for me to sustain a normal relationship as time went on and my marriage broke up. He also couldn't deal with the fact that he thought I was stronger mentally than he was. All in all I've had a good life though as I was determined I wouldn't be beaten. I have a good, responsible job, love of family and friends and the animals in my life who all bring me so much joy. Plus I've also got my love and passion for Huddersfield Town. I've much to be thankful for. I am now going to delete my account but just want to say despite all our differing views we are all part of the HTAFC family. ? I hope you're going to come back or stay as you are as you've a lot to offer the Website. I have been in your ex-husbands position and can feel your pain and half understand your ex..37years after the event and the act of putting my arm around her in the middle of the night can be upsetting for both.. I'm supposedly a drama queen but the drama is quite real..Stay strong and be proud...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 23:02:29 GMT 1
The subject has been really fully debated but for me it has to end. I myself will not be reading more .My heartfelt thanks go to anyone who has chosen to share their experiences .I have learned much and still have my opinions based on what I think I know.
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Post by Barbieterrier on Nov 20, 2014 21:22:57 GMT 1
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 20, 2014 21:28:29 GMT 1
Here we go ...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 21:33:48 GMT 1
Do we really have to? suicide
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 21:40:03 GMT 1
I'm logging off.
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Post by teddytheterrier on Nov 20, 2014 21:55:40 GMT 1
Sheffield United retract Evans offer
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Post by 3Pipe on Nov 20, 2014 22:19:08 GMT 1
Well within their rights to do so just as they were within their rights to offer him the opportunity to train in the first place.
Personally, I would have liked to see them adopt the same stance with Marlon King too but hey ho. This should send out a message to all would be perpetrators now.
Hope Evans gets work abroad as IMO this will make him less likely to reoffend.
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Post by omar on Nov 20, 2014 22:34:39 GMT 1
Could that statement's teeth be any more gritted? Between them and Wigan it has been a banner day for lousy bastards in football.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Nov 20, 2014 22:38:29 GMT 1
Maybe Wigan will sign him ?
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Post by teddytheterrier on Nov 20, 2014 22:44:04 GMT 1
Maybe Wigan will sign him ? Might aswell go the whole hog now
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Post by sapphireblue on Nov 20, 2014 23:10:00 GMT 1
I am now going to delete my account but just want to say despite all our differing views we are all part of the HTAFC family. ? Thank you Clare. In a while please re-sign up under a different name and come back onto the forum. Rational views are always welcome here - and we tolerate the irrational too.
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Post by keithAM11532 on Jan 3, 2015 3:14:37 GMT 1
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Post by Barbieterrier on Jan 4, 2015 0:49:34 GMT 1
Doubt it given MOJ says he can't take the job. Despite people saying he's 'done his time' he hasnt. He's on licence. Conditions of that being he can't take that job outside the uk.
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Post by sameoldstory on Jan 4, 2015 23:50:15 GMT 1
Everyone is saying he isn't remorseful, hasn't apologised etc etc - well he's not going to do if as he says, he is not guilty now is he ? Saying sorry would only infer he did it. Miscarriage of justice can and does happen.
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Post by teddytheterrier on Jan 5, 2015 11:15:56 GMT 1
Thought ched had been out for a while tbh......
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Jan 5, 2015 17:58:22 GMT 1
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jan 5, 2015 18:20:40 GMT 1
the PFA against public opinion now. see which carries more sway or finances now. Oldham must have had talks with the PFA which might be 'ongoing'....
maybe they are just going through the motions as a Union for one of their members within their legal remit?
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