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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 17, 2015 13:31:58 GMT 1
It's hardly peculiar to England (and if you want to see real, embedded and dangerous racism, our cousins across the Atlantic is where to look) I would love to know how you come to that conclusion. I have lived here for 16 years. Sure some people are discriminatory but it is not widespread. One thing often forgotten or ignored is it works both ways too over here. As long as people perpetuate racial discrimination on both sides of the racial divide it will continue but it's not widespread as the BBC would have you believe. It seems in America, a white cop CAN kill an unarmed black man these days unless it is filmed by a witness.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 13:49:43 GMT 1
I would love to know how you come to that conclusion. I have lived here for 16 years. Sure some people are discriminatory but it is not widespread. One thing often forgotten or ignored is it works both ways too over here. As long as people perpetuate racial discrimination on both sides of the racial divide it will continue but it's not widespread as the BBC would have you believe. It seems in America, a white cop CAN kill an unarmed back man these days unless it is filmed by a witness. Wrong. Cops can get away with killing people if there is no evidence like everyone else but it is not because the victim is black. To suggest so is ridiculous. At the same time the Ferguson incident with Michael Brown took place a remarkably similar event took place at a gas station in Utah. The difference being the cop was black and the guy that was shot was white. There was no mass hysteria, no rioting, no comments made by the President. Did you even hear about that in the UK? I doubt it because it was barely reported on in the U.S.. Don't believe everything you see on TV. It's rarely the whole story and is often slanted.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 17, 2015 14:07:54 GMT 1
I don't live in the UK, I live in Canada and my daughter is studying in Missouri and keeps me updated.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 14:56:30 GMT 1
Maybe you should look into some of this yourself. If she's talking about Michael Brown he robbed a store then got into a fight with a cop and tried to take the cops gun. Suicide by cop
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 17, 2015 15:01:59 GMT 1
Do you think Michael Slager would have been in prison today without the video evidence?
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Post by gledholt terrier on Apr 17, 2015 15:02:02 GMT 1
I don't live in the UK, I live in Canada and my daughter is studying in Missouri and keeps me updated. Hope she updated you with the fact that the cop was Hispanic. Called Cruz. Not that it makes any difference - its just deflection. The Utah cop was wearing a body camera which cleared him (rightly or wrongly) - meaning that, unlike the recent killing where the cops basically made up several stories which were then disproved by the phone footage.
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 17, 2015 15:13:34 GMT 1
Do you think Michael Slager would have been in prison today without the video evidence? Probably not. Do you think OJ Simpson would be in prison today if he'd been white? I do. Think that case summed up how screwed up the US is when it comes to race. As a nation they seem obsessed with it, with a lot of racism on all sides and a lot of chips on shoulders that make Sol's seem small!
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 17, 2015 15:19:39 GMT 1
Maybe you should look into some of this yourself. If she's talking about Michael Brown he robbed a store then got into a fight with a cop and tried to take the cops gun. Suicide by cop That is if you believe the police officer's version, which thankfully in Michael Slager's case was found to be completely false due to the video evidence.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 17, 2015 15:23:33 GMT 1
Do you think Michael Slager would have been in prison today without the video evidence? Probably not. Do you think OJ Simpson would be in prison today if he'd been white I do. Think that case summed up how screwed up the US is when it comes to race. As a nation they seem obsessed with it, with a lot of racism on all sides and a lot of chips on shoulders that make Sol's seem small! I think the case with OJ was more about him being rich enough to get the best legal team and famous enough to get off. And if i'm not mistaken he IS in prison today.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 15:24:22 GMT 1
It seems in America, a white cop CAN kill an unarmed back man these days unless it is filmed by a witness. Wrong. Cops can get away with killing people if there is no evidence like everyone else but it is not because the victim is black. To suggest so is ridiculous. At the same time the Ferguson incident with Michael Brown took place a remarkably similar event took place at a gas station in Utah. The difference being the cop was black and the guy that was shot was white. There was no mass hysteria, no rioting, no comments made by the President. Did you even hear about that in the UK? I doubt it because it was barely reported on in the U.S.. Don't believe everything you see on TV. It's rarely the whole story and is often slanted.
Yes, it was widely reported on both BBC and Sky News.
I think John Oliver (we get his HBO "Last Week Tonight" show broadcast here in the UK on Sky Atlantic) also referenced it in one of his vaguely humorous rants on American TV. I'm assuming that that would be considered on the verge of mainstream coverage over there?
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 17, 2015 15:40:29 GMT 1
Probably not. Do you think OJ Simpson would be in prison today if he'd been white I do. Think that case summed up how screwed up the US is when it comes to race. As a nation they seem obsessed with it, with a lot of racism on all sides and a lot of chips on shoulders that make Sol's seem small! I think the case with OJ was more about him being rich enough to get the best legal team and famous enough to get off. And if i'm not mistaken he IS in prison today. Is he? I don't know about that,just that he was found not guilty in that murder case. he could afford the best lawyers and they were good enough to turn the whole thing into a racial black against white affair- such an emotive subject in the states that it eventually had him found not guilty for a crime that he was blatantly guilty of.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 15:50:31 GMT 1
I think the case with OJ was more about him being rich enough to get the best legal team and famous enough to get off. And if i'm not mistaken he IS in prison today. Is he? I don't know about that,just that he was found not guilty in that murder case. he could afford the best lawyers and they were good enough to turn the whole thing into a racial black against white affair- such an emotive subject in the states that it eventually had him found not guilty for a crime that he was blatantly guilty of. He's in prison for a completely unrelated incident.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 16:35:49 GMT 1
Maybe you should look into some of this yourself. If she's talking about Michael Brown he robbed a store then got into a fight with a cop and tried to take the cops gun. Suicide by cop That is if you believe the police officer's version, which thankfully in Michael Slager's case was found to be completely false due to the video evidence. There were dozens of black witnesses who supported the cops story as did all the physical evidence. Don't get me wrong, there are bad police out there but he was not one of them. The people who should be in jail over that incident are the ones that made up the false claims, most of whom have since admitted they lied.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 17, 2015 16:52:00 GMT 1
That is if you believe the police officer's version, which thankfully in Michael Slager's case was found to be completely false due to the video evidence. There were dozens of black witnesses who supported the cops story as did all the physical evidence. Don't get me wrong, there are bad police out there but he was not one of them. The people who should be in jail over that incident are the ones that made up the false claims, most of whom have since admitted they lied. Again the taser being found by the Walter Scott's body would have corroborated Michael Slager's version of events I guess you are conveniently overlooking witness 40's testimony
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 17:04:27 GMT 1
There were dozens of black witnesses who supported the cops story as did all the physical evidence. Don't get me wrong, there are bad police out there but he was not one of them. The people who should be in jail over that incident are the ones that made up the false claims, most of whom have since admitted they lied. Again the taser being found by the Walter Scott's body would have corroborated Michael Slager's version of events I guess you are conveniently overlooking witness 40's testimony You are not talking about the same incident as me.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 17, 2015 17:09:59 GMT 1
For clarification, Witness 40 refers to the Michael Brown case to show that witnesses lie for both sides.
I believe that too many unarmed black men in the US are killed by white police officers and that if Walter Scott's death had not been filmed on a phone he would not be in prison today.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 17, 2015 17:43:25 GMT 1
I believe that a country full of drugs and guns leads to serious nervousness and an understandable but very negative view from both sides about the other..leading to tragedy on both sides... oddly enough in this country those that carry guns as a part of their 'lifestyle' seem to get a great deal of sympathy when the shit hits them..? we even had one family member stating that the police should only use deadly force after they have been shot at first? ?? He wasn't even kidding!!!!!!!!
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Post by bro600 on Apr 17, 2015 18:04:53 GMT 1
Whatever happened to integration? Surely integration is a natural process and relies on time for the said integration? Forced assimilation used to be the fear for immigrants but surely that works both ways? I do believe that celebrities, journalists and politicians are now making a good living by keeping this subject on the agenda and i don't think they give a rats arse that they give power to the activists and parties like the BNP.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 17, 2015 18:13:26 GMT 1
think most African americans have exactly the same aspirations as white americans.. they have the same religion and usually the same pride in the flag etc.. if that wont work then I do wonder how we expect it to work here with the gulf of 'differences' that we have imported? added to the shit going on around the world in the name of 'religion and differences'
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 18:51:47 GMT 1
think most African americans have exactly the same aspirations as white americans.. they have the same religion and usually the same pride in the flag etc.. if that wont work then I do wonder how we expect it to work here with the gulf of 'differences' that we have imported? added to the shit going on around the world in the name of 'religion and differences' It does work for the vast majority of Americans. The racial divide is greatly exaggerated by the media and people like Sharpton and Jackson. None of the people I know could give a crap what race someone is they judge people on how they behave. Unfortunately Sharpton and Jackson have a financial interest in perpetrating the image of injustice for African Americans and there are a number of people who will follow them regardless of what the facts are. It sounds like the same stuff is beginning in the UK. I don't think 99% of Chairman care what race their manager is, they just want success for the club. I am sure there are a couple of exceptions to that but eventually they will die out like the dinosaurs.
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Post by Headless Chicken on Apr 17, 2015 19:47:12 GMT 1
There was a piece on it in the Times a couple of years ago and it highlighted the number of black candidates for pro coaching licences etc was minimal compared to the number of black to white players pro-rata, therefore they came to the conclusion that basically they couldn't be arsed to put in the groundwork required to get yourself into the position of being a credible candidate for a managers job. That's a really good point, as is the fact the present percentage of black players is somewhat of an irrelevance until we get to the stage they are retired. Doesn't detract from Otium being an odious bigot mind and unfortunately bringing out the worst in a much better poster in Slapps.
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 17, 2015 20:07:21 GMT 1
complimented me with an insult. LOL Not sure which of my posts you think are the worst of me. I have pretty forthright views on subjects such as race, immigration etc and always try and back them up with sound reasoning that the opposing side might not want to hear, and I certainly give no truck to blinkered political correctness, bleeding hearted liberalism or the pathetic 'racist' calls of those unable to discuss the subject. Otium doesn't bring out anything in me- Im quite able to form my own views, ta. His method of delivery may get some peoples back up but the general gist of what hes saying on such topics is usually near the mark.
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Post by borisminor on Apr 17, 2015 20:16:08 GMT 1
My problem with the Rooney rule is, that by making clubs invite black managers to an interview it supposedly increases equality. But, surely it is not equal as the only people made to attend the interview are black shouldn't the same also be said for women, disabled people or homosexuals. Also, by implementing the Rooney rule won't some black managers invited for an interview immediately just feel that they are there to make up the numbers as Chris Ramsey aside, I can't think of any Premier League standard managers so if someone like Paul Ince was asked to an interview along side Klopp I would feel ashamed that I am just making up the numbers.
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Post by bro600 on Apr 17, 2015 20:25:48 GMT 1
My problem with the Rooney rule is, that by making clubs invite black managers to an interview it supposedly increases equality. But, surely it is not equal as the only people made to attend the interview are black shouldn't the same also be said for women, disabled people or homosexuals. Also, by implementing the Rooney rule won't some black managers invited for an interview immediately just feel that they are there to make up the numbers as Chris Ramsey aside, I can't think of any Premier League standard managers so if someone like Paul Ince was asked to an interview along side Klopp I would feel ashamed that I am just making up the numbers. If Leeds interviewed Lenny Henry he wouldn't be out of place.
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Post by Headless Chicken on Apr 17, 2015 20:40:22 GMT 1
complimented me with an insult. LOL Not sure which of my posts you think are the worst of me. I have pretty forthright views on subjects such as race, immigration etc and always try and back them up with sound reasoning that the opposing side might not want to hear, and I certainly give no truck to blinkered political correctness, bleeding hearted liberalism or the pathetic 'racist' calls of those unable to discuss the subject. Otium doesn't bring out anything in me- Im quite able to form my own views, ta. His method of delivery may get some peoples back up but the general gist of what hes saying on such topics is usually near the mark. Potentailly going off at a tangent, I 100% don't agree with things like giving immigrants immediate benefits, whether general living allowances or health care, other than in extreme examples, such as say refugees from a war torn state. I just have a big issue when many immigrants have a full intention to work and are coming from deprived countries, when we have an indigenous underclass that have no pride and are happy to sponge off the rest of us. I'm not a lefty, I can't stand these fuckers and would rather my taxes went to deserved Brits and diligent immigrants. Back to topic, I don't have an issue with the Rooney rule whilst we still have silly old duffers with daft preconceptions, because the right man should still get the job, whether white, black or from Battyford. Hopefully in the not too distant future we will judge people on their own merits and at that time I would agree any "positive' discrimination is just wrong!!!
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Apr 17, 2015 23:21:02 GMT 1
People like Barnes and Campbell are no good as a manager, got fuck all to do with what colour they are! Not sure you can say Campbell is no good as a manager when he's never managed .. though I'm sure he wouldn't be ! Too self obsessed Another reply in a "black manager thread"?
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Apr 17, 2015 23:30:42 GMT 1
complimented me with an insult. LOL Not sure which of my posts you think are the worst of me. I have pretty forthright views on subjects such as race, immigration etc and always try and back them up with sound reasoning that the opposing side might not want to hear, and I certainly give no truck to blinkered political correctness, bleeding hearted liberalism or the pathetic 'racist' calls of those unable to discuss the subject. Otium doesn't bring out anything in me- Im quite able to form my own views, ta. His method of delivery may get some peoples back up but the general gist of what hes saying on such topics is usually near the mark. Remarkable to be near the mark, for a man who knows so little about football I am not colour blind but i strive to be, how small-minded it is to judge just on a simple skin dye. Cultural bias? Now that's a whole different subject. The World shrinks daily, we just have to rub along.
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Post by tockyterrier on Apr 18, 2015 0:13:25 GMT 1
Surely, a chairmen of football clubs week simply pick the man the feel will do the best for their club. There is so much money in the game that it is the only thing that it is the only thing that matters.
Hoyle took Powell on as he was the best candidate, he didn't do it for ticking the right box and risking being relegated any me than he had to.
Sent from my HTC One mini 2 using proboards
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 18, 2015 0:46:31 GMT 1
complimented me with an insult. LOL Not sure which of my posts you think are the worst of me. I have pretty forthright views on subjects such as race, immigration etc and always try and back them up with sound reasoning that the opposing side might not want to hear, and I certainly give no truck to blinkered political correctness, bleeding hearted liberalism or the pathetic 'racist' calls of those unable to discuss the subject. Otium doesn't bring out anything in me- Im quite able to form my own views, ta. His method of delivery may get some peoples back up but the general gist of what hes saying on such topics is usually near the mark. Potentailly going off at a tangent, I 100% don't agree with things like giving immigrants immediate benefits, whether general living allowances or health care, other than in extreme examples, such as say refugees from a war torn state. I just have a big issue when many immigrants have a full intention to work and are coming from deprived countries, when we have an indigenous underclass that have no pride and are happy to sponge off the rest of us. I'm not a lefty, I can't stand these fuckers and would rather my taxes went to deserved Brits and diligent immigrants. Back to topic, I don't have an issue with the Rooney rule whilst we still have silly old duffers with daft preconceptions, because the right man should still get the job, whether white, black or from Battyford.
Hopefully in the not too distant future we will judge people on their own merits and at that time I would agree any "positive' discrimination is just wrong!!!I don't see any evidence at all that owners don't give their managers jobs to the person they think will do the best job, regardless of colour or nationality , or even being from Battyeford etc Wheres the evidence that they aren't judging people on their own merits? The Rooney rule gives people an advantage, not on their merits, but on their skin colour. I don't like the term 'positive discrimination' , because its been invented to somehow justify what it is- discrimination. Nothing more , nothing less. You don;'t fight perceived racism, by introducing racism.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 18, 2015 4:17:03 GMT 1
Potentailly going off at a tangent, I 100% don't agree with things like giving immigrants immediate benefits, whether general living allowances or health care, other than in extreme examples, such as say refugees from a war torn state. I just have a big issue when many immigrants have a full intention to work and are coming from deprived countries, when we have an indigenous underclass that have no pride and are happy to sponge off the rest of us. I'm not a lefty, I can't stand these fuckers and would rather my taxes went to deserved Brits and diligent immigrants. Back to topic, I don't have an issue with the Rooney rule whilst we still have silly old duffers with daft preconceptions, because the right man should still get the job, whether white, black or from Battyford.
Hopefully in the not too distant future we will judge people on their own merits and at that time I would agree any "positive' discrimination is just wrong!!!I don't see any evidence at all that owners don't give their managers jobs to the person they think will do the best job, regardless of colour or nationality , or even being from Battyeford etc Wheres the evidence that they aren't judging people on their own merits? The Rooney rule gives people an advantage, not on their merits, but on their skin colour. I don't like the term 'positive discrimination' , because its been invented to somehow justify what it is- discrimination. Nothing more , nothing less. You don;'t fight perceived racism, by introducing racism. The Rooney rule is used in American football to redress the balance where something like 70% of the sport was black in ethinicity but very few non whites were in the higher posiions with NFL teams. It has been deemed a success and even broadened to include assistant coaches position. No-one speaks ill of it in NFL terms. In Football in the UK it is different because we need more non white (particularly ex players) people to take their badges and start the coaching ladder as everyone has stated every position should be filled with the best applicant THIS IS NOT THE ARGUMENT and the Rooney rule within the NFL abides by this caveat. It's sad that in the UK it comes down to the John Barnes' and Paul Ince's of the world to complain about their lack of opportunities when both have failed in at least 2 managerial posts. The Sol Campbell's don't even think they need to have the badges to advance their post playing careers. Until there are better role models for black coaches and managers to follow then I don't think the situation will improve. It was the NFL that identified their race issue and introduced the Rooney rule to redress what they felt was an imbalance at the most senior positions within their organisation. 'Positive discrimination' at the interview level in the NFL is used to redress the 'negative discrimination' that it felt was present within it's past.
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