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Post by 3Pipe on Dec 1, 2015 1:16:34 GMT 1
Nook bond tea.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Dec 1, 2015 1:41:22 GMT 1
The acid test will be Bristol City. The truth is we potentially would have lost to both SW and Boro even if Powell had still been at the helm. There is a strong possibility that Birmingham will beat us as well. The first weak team we come across is Bristol. if they win and we suddenly find ourselves cemented in the bottom three, no amount of youngsters or breadpressing is going to stop the meltdown. Every game is an acid test. Bristol City beat Boro at their place. If we go in to that game thinking they are weak - then we would be doomed.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Dec 1, 2015 1:53:00 GMT 1
I'll be honest pipes, I like you a lot you know that. But in the last couple of weeks you have posted more drivel than I thought imaginable .. How on earth can you be calling people embarrassing cos a few kids have come in and done OK .. Not great.. OK... For three games.. Three games in which we got beat.. Blimey Riley Tim Hotte came In and had a few good games.. I thought he would be a great.. Adnan Ahmed came in and had a few good games., I thought he would be a star... FFS you do realise you could well end up with BOXES of egg over your face ? Then your self proclaimed " king of the talent scouts" moniker will be up in dust... There is no shades of grey pipes.. You are right and the rest are embarrassing... And all this as you argue with people who have actually seen these players close up... I'm telling you this.. If you wish to use Joe Lolley vs Middlesborough as an example of a young player having a great game then think again.. He was bang average at best... In fact I walked away thinking I've been hasty thinking he had a big future.. He's only ever done it for me when coming on for ten minutes... He looks threatening but on Saturday actually did the square root of fuck all ! But if you want to use him to further your claim that everyone bar you is nuts then be my guest.. And see you in a year for a reappraisal eh ? Being at Watford - despite the timing of the fixture and the myth that Watford were on the beach (there is no doubt in mind they were trying to win just as much as us and were embarrassed at the final whistle) Joe Lolley's performance that day has been the highlight, sadly he hasn't come close to matching that since. I have seen him make a couple of starts despite my move away - he's only made 6 starts in total. Hopefully, he and Dempsey can go on to bigger and better things at first team level. I feel I have been a campaigner for the kids (despite Pipey stating otherwise yesterday), we have quite a bit of talent if nurtured correctly could well be stars of tomorrow, my complaint of Powell was that this nurturing wasn't taking place, if we had an injury even for the odd game then a loan acquistion was sought rather than putting a kid in for a game or two. It is interesting to read that DH saw Powell's reluctance to blood some kids after last season's survival was secured was probably the start of his downfall. i wonder why he did this, was it selfishly for his CV because it wasn't in the best interests of Town's future. Even Micky Buxton said back in the day that youngsters had to be introduced gradually even after a seemingly successful introduction they needed resting after a run of 6-8 games. I believe he stated this after Mark Lillis first team introduction (How old do I feel saying that!). I don't feel that this was going to happen to any of the current bunch. Can I just put on record that I feel that Jack Boyle has the potential to be a real star (though I envisage many Holmes like threads about his size) before Pipey claims to have spotted his talent before he was conceived I don't think it was a myth - they were on the beach. Lolley and Ward still had good games though. What I remember was that Lolley got his head up - refreshing change from the then unreconstructed Scannell.
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Post by keithAM11532 on Dec 1, 2015 2:02:33 GMT 1
The acid test will be Bristol City. The truth is we potentially would have lost to both SW and Boro even if Powell had still been at the helm. There is a strong possibility that Birmingham will beat us as well. The first weak team we come across is Bristol. if they win and we suddenly find ourselves cemented in the bottom three, no amount of youngsters or breadpressing is going to stop the meltdown. Every game is an acid test. Bristol City beat Boro at their place. If we go in to that game thinking they are weak - then we would be doomed. If we go into that game having lost 4 on the spin and then that becomes 5 I have a feeling that the new beginning may just start to unravel quickly.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Dec 1, 2015 2:33:54 GMT 1
Every game is an acid test. Bristol City beat Boro at their place. If we go in to that game thinking they are weak - then we would be doomed. If we go into that game having lost 4 on the spin and then that becomes 5 I have a feeling that the new beginning may just start to unravel quickly. Hope not - but I hope we stick with this one. I've been watching since the early 60's and we have had too many journeymen managers - the so called "football men", and you can count the number of innovative managers offering something different on the fingers of one hand. Time for something new and a step change if we want to beat the wage bill correlation.
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Post by morleyterrier on Dec 1, 2015 5:39:47 GMT 1
If we go into that game having lost 4 on the spin and then that becomes 5 I have a feeling that the new beginning may just start to unravel quickly. Hope not - but I hope we stick with this one. I've been watching since the early 60's and we have had too many journeymen managers - the so called "football men", and you can count the number of innovative managers offering something different on the fingers of one hand. Time for something new and a step change if we want to beat the wage bill correlation. I genuinely don't believe we will go down (we wouldn't even been having this conversation if Wagner had, had a whole summer to work with the squad). Just think what he would have achieved in a couple of months with no matches coming thick and fast?). I suspect also that in the transfer market we may have plugged more perceived gaps. I stopped buying a season ticket, in fact I stopped going altogether but carry on like this Town and regardless of what division we are in next season. I will get a season ticket again. I could not agree more that for once, we have something fresh, something new and something exciting. Not the same old, same old 'English' approach to setting Teams up that works so well for the National side. I believe Powell is really well qualified coaching wise from the FA's Burton-Upon-Trent school of excellence!!??. And the Country wonders why other Countries football is so far advanced and in many cases so much better to watch (and the Germans win an odd thing or too). Our Youngsters are going to grow-up very quickly under Wagner and his Teams fitness and coaching / football philosophy. This has to be a 3 to 5 year plan and Wagner has to know that the whole Club and fans are fully on board with what he will achieve here. This trust me will also ignite Hoyle's interest again. There are already signs of that and we have the best Chairman on the planet. Yes there will be some downs, undoubtedly. You can argue his very recent results (not performances) fall in to that category. I personally though have not felt this upbeat for years. Keep going Mr Wagner, just keep going as you are.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Dec 1, 2015 6:09:00 GMT 1
Being at Watford - despite the timing of the fixture and the myth that Watford were on the beach (there is no doubt in mind they were trying to win just as much as us and were embarrassed at the final whistle) Joe Lolley's performance that day has been the highlight, sadly he hasn't come close to matching that since. I have seen him make a couple of starts despite my move away - he's only made 6 starts in total. Hopefully, he and Dempsey can go on to bigger and better things at first team level. I feel I have been a campaigner for the kids (despite Pipey stating otherwise yesterday), we have quite a bit of talent if nurtured correctly could well be stars of tomorrow, my complaint of Powell was that this nurturing wasn't taking place, if we had an injury even for the odd game then a loan acquistion was sought rather than putting a kid in for a game or two. It is interesting to read that DH saw Powell's reluctance to blood some kids after last season's survival was secured was probably the start of his downfall. i wonder why he did this, was it selfishly for his CV because it wasn't in the best interests of Town's future. Even Micky Buxton said back in the day that youngsters had to be introduced gradually even after a seemingly successful introduction they needed resting after a run of 6-8 games. I believe he stated this after Mark Lillis first team introduction (How old do I feel saying that!). I don't feel that this was going to happen to any of the current bunch. Can I just put on record that I feel that Jack Boyle has the potential to be a real star (though I envisage many Holmes like threads about his size) before Pipey claims to have spotted his talent before he was conceived I don't think it was a myth - they were on the beach. Lolley and Ward still had good games though. What I remember was that Lolley got his head up - refreshing change from the then unreconstructed Scannell. They were by far the better team in the first half and should have been two up at the break, we scored almost straight from the second half kickoff and then much like Middlesbrough with every shot in the second half and their keeper had a bit of a mare. I recall Deeney doing his nut in and plenty of arguing Watford players. I still remember the day quite vividly as I knew it would be the last away game before I emigrated.
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rocky
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by rocky on Dec 1, 2015 10:06:34 GMT 1
It's way too early to be using words like 'transformation' & 'incredible' when comparing anything Wagner has done, to Powell. That includes the young players.
There have been encouraging signs under Wagner, but they don't put points on the board. The only relevant fact so far, is played 2, lost 2. For all the slagging off that's being directed at Powell, let's not forget what the results have been since he left.
Let's wait until Wagner achieves a decent run of results, like Powell did (with 11 points from 6 games between the Charlton & MK matches), before judging him.
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Post by 3Pipe on Dec 1, 2015 10:09:40 GMT 1
I'm gathering 11 points from 6 games is the same as 11 points from 8 games?
Am I right?
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Post by 3Pipe on Dec 1, 2015 10:15:22 GMT 1
Aye, thought so. Let's take a bigger sample size and say, go from QPR to Burnley rocky.
11 points from 10 games.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 10:19:37 GMT 1
Epsom is the king of the scouts. Fresh Prince knows his onions too but he was wrong about Garbutt and I was right on that one. ::) But generally, I don't see myself as 'king of the talent scouts' at all mate. My lad knows twice as much about young footballers as me. I can spot a good player, yes. I can stand up for a good player, yes, when all others are saying he isn't good enough or won't make it just because some paranoid safety first ex-England FB is too scared to play him. I can take the flak. I can think for myself. But self proclaimed 'king of the talent scouts'? Sheer fiction Ted. You've exaggerated the words of a poster who put his convictons out there and then under pressure and in a rare display of self-promotion said 'I can spot a player'. That's all I said. What have these lads got to do to convince you they can play at this level, win the Ballon D'or? One or two might get injured along the way, slip down a league or two, some might go on to better things. That's football, that's how life goes. Why use that as a tool in a year's time against someone who was just sticking up for the young uns. Yes they are good enough if they put the work in. What's to gain by being negative? You've got a kid mate. Support is key to development. Genuinely don't know how these lads have shown they're good enough for this level after 20 good minutes against Leeds (which Billing did have) and good performances in games you didn't see (I didn't make Sheff Wed or Boro either, so have no idea if they impressed or not), regardless of the fact we lost all these game. Even if they do come good, how did you "spot them"? You watched a couple of minutes of them on Youtube. Said it before, you could cobble together three minutes of Miller's best bits and make him look a talent. I'd rather see a player a few times before making any judgement on them. Maybe Powell was a fool for not playing them, time will tell. The bigger issue for me was going to lower league clubs and failing to get a game - imagine the reaction if we signed a player with the record Lolley had at Scunthorpe, or Charles at Guiseley - none of them went anywhere and did a Jack Hunt.
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Post by wtd on Dec 1, 2015 10:24:09 GMT 1
Hope not - but I hope we stick with this one. I've been watching since the early 60's and we have had too many journeymen managers - the so called "football men", and you can count the number of innovative managers offering something different on the fingers of one hand. Time for something new and a step change if we want to beat the wage bill correlation. I genuinely don't believe we will go down (we wouldn't even been having this conversation if Wagner had, had a whole summer to work with the squad). Just think what he would have achieved in a couple of months with no matches coming thick and fast?). I suspect also that in the transfer market we may have plugged more perceived gaps. I stopped buying a season ticket, in fact I stopped going altogether but carry on like this Town and regardless of what division we are in next season. I will get a season ticket again. I could not agree more that for once, we have something fresh, something new and something exciting. Not the same old, same old 'English' approach to setting Teams up that works so well for the National side. I believe Powell is really well qualified coaching wise from the FA's Burton-Upon-Trent school of excellence!!??. And the Country wonders why other Countries football is so far advanced and in many cases so much better to watch (and the Germans win an odd thing or too). Our Youngsters are going to grow-up very quickly under Wagner and his Teams fitness and coaching / football philosophy. This has to be a 3 to 5 year plan and Wagner has to know that the whole Club and fans are fully on board with what he will achieve here. This trust me will also ignite Hoyle's interest again. There are already signs of that and we have the best Chairman on the planet. Yes there will be some downs, undoubtedly. You can argue his very recent results (not performances) fall in to that category. I personally though have not felt this upbeat for years. Keep going Mr Wagner, just keep going as you are. A volte-face of the highest order by yourself AND the club. I applaud you both.
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Post by wtd on Dec 1, 2015 10:27:45 GMT 1
It's way too early to be using words like 'transformation' & 'incredible' when comparing anything Wagner has done, to Powell. That includes the young players.
There have been encouraging signs under Wagner, but they don't put points on the board. The only relevant fact so far, is played 2, lost 2. For all the slagging off that's being directed at Powell, let's not forget what the results have been since he left.
Let's wait until Wagner achieves a decent run of results, like Powell did (with 11 points from 6 games between the Charlton & MK matches), before judging him. 'Let's wait until Wagner achieves a decent run of results' We don't HAVE to wait. We can still applaud the endeavour and the style in which it is being carried out. We are on such a better journey already.
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rocky
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by rocky on Dec 1, 2015 10:28:36 GMT 1
Aye, thought so. Let's take a bigger sample size and say, go from QPR to Burnley rocky. 11 points from 10 games. I'll give you that, but am sticking with the rest of it.
There were 2 main points I was making in my first post. Firstly, not everything was as bad under Powell as plenty on here make out. Secondly, it's way too early to judge Wagner on anything (despite the encouraging signs which I mentioned).
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Post by galpharm2400 on Dec 1, 2015 11:06:23 GMT 1
tough one..we need the points as much as we needed an improvement in obtaining them..
question is how long you give 'improving the style' without it gaining the desperately required points?
2 games where we lost 1-5 with a new manager and a new ethos requires some further patience but we are not a development squad and the league we are in isnt a 'breeding ground'..
points make prizes, showing off a full back that isnt ours does not..giving foreign players a 'showcase' for their talents might be good for their careers but if it does not bring us points we wont benefit at all..nothing says we will get any loans players on a permanent basis, in fact I doubt we will get any if they have a modicum of personal success here..they are loans after all and unless we build in first refusals then they could end up anywhere as success means higher fees..
remember we have to play another season next year and however progressive we might look now we really need to be doing it again next season in this division..
If the future under wagner is going to be development and change he is going to have to be really good at it and really quick at it.. he built a team of development at dortmund and lost a number of players and then got relegated, it sort of goes with the 'developing players' territory.. a number of good performances and they move onwards and if you havent quite got the replacements ready it drops off for a while at least..
Its not having a go, its just a note of caution for the new beggining..
'Its much better and i can see what we are trying to do' will only last so long in a very competetive division..we cant add till january and again time then isnt on your side..
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Melc
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Melc on Dec 1, 2015 11:14:59 GMT 1
It's way too early to be using words like 'transformation' & 'incredible' when comparing anything Wagner has done, to Powell. That includes the young players.
There have been encouraging signs under Wagner, but they don't put points on the board. The only relevant fact so far, is played 2, lost 2. For all the slagging off that's being directed at Powell, let's not forget what the results have been since he left.
Let's wait until Wagner achieves a decent run of results, like Powell did (with 11 points from 6 games between the Charlton & MK matches), before judging him. It's way too early to be using words like 'transformation' & 'incredible' when comparing anything Wagner has done, to Powell
Well if only getting 3 points out of our first 21 at the start of this season, and averaging one point a game is anything to go by it won't take much to surpass Powell's results achievements this season! What makes you think the boring negative ultra safe football being served up by Powell would have got any better results in this run of fixtures we have just had?
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Dec 1, 2015 11:16:01 GMT 1
tough one..we need the points as much as we needed an improvement in obtaining them.. question is how long you give 'improving the style' without it gaining the desperately required points? 2 games where we lost 1-5 with a new manager and a new ethos requires some further patience but we are not a development squad and the league we are in isnt a 'breeding ground'.. points make prizes, showing off a full back that isnt ours does not..giving foreign players a 'showcase' for their talents might be good for their careers but if it does not bring us points we wont benefit at all..nothing says we will get any loans players on a permanent basis, in fact I doubt we will get any if they have a modicum of personal success here..they are loans after all and unless we build in first refusals then they could end up anywhere as success means higher fees.. remember we have to play another season next year and however progressive we might look now we really need to be doing it again next season in this division.. If the future under wagner is going to be development and change he is going to have to be really good at it and really quick at it.. he built a team of development at dortmund and lost a number of players and then got relegated, it sort of goes with the 'developing players' territory.. a number of good performances and they move onwards and if you havent quite got the replacements ready it drops off for a while at least.. Its not having a go, its just a note of caution for the new beggining.. 'Its much better and i can see what we are trying to do' will only last so long in a very competetive division..we cant add till january and again time then isnt on your side.. I remember when we arseholed Bournemouth 5-1 the season before they went up. You could still see the germ of what they were trying to do even when Vaughan was battering them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 11:17:29 GMT 1
tough one..we need the points as much as we needed an improvement in obtaining them.. question is how long you give 'improving the style' without it gaining the desperately required points? 2 games where we lost 1-5 with a new manager and a new ethos requires some further patience but we are not a development squad and the league we are in isnt a 'breeding ground'.. points make prizes, showing off a full back that isnt ours does not..giving foreign players a 'showcase' for their talents might be good for their careers but if it does not bring us points we wont benefit at all..nothing says we will get any loans players on a permanent basis, in fact I doubt we will get any if they have a modicum of personal success here..they are loans after all and unless we build in first refusals then they could end up anywhere as success means higher fees.. remember we have to play another season next year and however progressive we might look now we really need to be doing it again next season in this division.. If the future under wagner is going to be development and change he is going to have to be really good at it and really quick at it.. he built a team of development at dortmund and lost a number of players and then got relegated, it sort of goes with the 'developing players' territory.. a number of good performances and they move onwards and if you havent quite got the replacements ready it drops off for a while at least.. Its not having a go, its just a note of caution for the new beggining.. 'Its much better and i can see what we are trying to do' will only last so long in a very competetive division..we cant add till january and again time then isnt on your side.. Bonkers post. It has been two games, man. You've got to give it longer than that before drawing any conclusions. Playing a full back that is better than the one we had (if that is the case), will at least help to bring points, regardless of whether he is a loan or permanent. For months you were banging on about having a go, pressing higher up the pitch would be the answer to our problems regardless of players. We do that for two games, lose and suddenly you're doing an about turn.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Dec 1, 2015 11:27:31 GMT 1
tough one..we need the points as much as we needed an improvement in obtaining them.. question is how long you give 'improving the style' without it gaining the desperately required points? 2 games where we lost 1-5 with a new manager and a new ethos requires some further patience but we are not a development squad and the league we are in isnt a 'breeding ground'.. points make prizes, showing off a full back that isnt ours does not..giving foreign players a 'showcase' for their talents might be good for their careers but if it does not bring us points we wont benefit at all..nothing says we will get any loans players on a permanent basis, in fact I doubt we will get any if they have a modicum of personal success here..they are loans after all and unless we build in first refusals then they could end up anywhere as success means higher fees.. remember we have to play another season next year and however progressive we might look now we really need to be doing it again next season in this division.. If the future under wagner is going to be development and change he is going to have to be really good at it and really quick at it.. he built a team of development at dortmund and lost a number of players and then got relegated, it sort of goes with the 'developing players' territory.. a number of good performances and they move onwards and if you havent quite got the replacements ready it drops off for a while at least.. Its not having a go, its just a note of caution for the new beggining.. 'Its much better and i can see what we are trying to do' will only last so long in a very competetive division..we cant add till january and again time then isnt on your side.. Bonkers post. It has been two games, man. You've got to give it longer than that before drawing any conclusions. Playing a full back that is better than the one we had (if that is the case), will at least help to bring points, regardless of whether he is a loan or permanent. For months you were banging on about having a go, pressing higher up the pitch would be the answer to our problems regardless of players. We do that for two games, lose and suddenly you're doing an about turn. read the posts properly.. no u turn just a note of caution if we are going to go down the road of a development squad.. it might be good for a while once he gets the loans he wants but they do come and they certainly go.. rhodes was ours, pilkington was ours etc etc.. If he brings in players and they go straight into the team they have to frame quickly.. all i said above was that in truth we are in a league where points are vital, developing players to bring in is part of the strategy but developing them in very tough championship games is a risk. I am certainly not doom and gloom but rather a note of caution instead of we are still shit or there is a bright lovely rosy future ahead.. We need 2/3 players in january that will have to hit the ground running, its a tough one, thats all.. the situation has been of our own making and it might take a bit longer than some on here envisage..
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rocky
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by rocky on Dec 1, 2015 11:41:14 GMT 1
It's way too early to be using words like 'transformation' & 'incredible' when comparing anything Wagner has done, to Powell. That includes the young players.
There have been encouraging signs under Wagner, but they don't put points on the board. The only relevant fact so far, is played 2, lost 2. For all the slagging off that's being directed at Powell, let's not forget what the results have been since he left.
Let's wait until Wagner achieves a decent run of results, like Powell did (with 11 points from 6 games between the Charlton & MK matches), before judging him. It's way too early to be using words like 'transformation' & 'incredible' when comparing anything Wagner has done, to Powell
Well if only getting 3 points out of our first 21 at the start of this season, and averaging one point a game is anything to go by it won't take much to surpass Powell's results achievements this season! What makes you think the boring negative ultra safe football being served up by Powell would have got any better results in this run of fixtures we have just had? Firstly, it was 6 points from the first 7 games, not 3.
Secondly, I didn't say CP would have got better results did I? You've just made that up. Truth is, we'll never know on that score.
Anyway, let's hope you're right & that Wagner comfortably 'surpasses' Powell results wise. Too early to start judging him on anything for me though, which is the point I was trying to make earlier.
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Post by wtd on Dec 1, 2015 11:53:02 GMT 1
tough one..we need the points as much as we needed an improvement in obtaining them.. question is how long you give 'improving the style' without it gaining the desperately required points? 2 games where we lost 1-5 with a new manager and a new ethos requires some further patience but we are not a development squad and the league we are in isnt a 'breeding ground'.. points make prizes, showing off a full back that isnt ours does not..giving foreign players a 'showcase' for their talents might be good for their careers but if it does not bring us points we wont benefit at all..nothing says we will get any loans players on a permanent basis, in fact I doubt we will get any if they have a modicum of personal success here..they are loans after all and unless we build in first refusals then they could end up anywhere as success means higher fees.. remember we have to play another season next year and however progressive we might look now we really need to be doing it again next season in this division.. If the future under wagner is going to be development and change he is going to have to be really good at it and really quick at it.. he built a team of development at dortmund and lost a number of players and then got relegated, it sort of goes with the 'developing players' territory.. a number of good performances and they move onwards and if you havent quite got the replacements ready it drops off for a while at least.. Its not having a go, its just a note of caution for the new beggining.. 'Its much better and i can see what we are trying to do' will only last so long in a very competetive division..we cant add till january and again time then isnt on your side.. Short sighted, galph. I thought you were up for this kind of change? Give it a bloody chance, man. This may take a long while and if we have to take one step backwards to take two forward, then so be it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 11:56:26 GMT 1
I've been banging on for ages about giving the young ones a chance but kept getting shot down in flames and being told that they can't be good enough because Powell sees them everyday in training, and why wouldn't he use them if they were good enough. Events over the past couple of weeks have answered this to some degree and its clear that some of these lads would never have been given a proper chance under Powell. Thank goodness we now appear to have a manager who recognizes talent and is not afraid to give them a go. the debate about young players is a interesting one and ive seen a lot. judge them over six or seven games before saying they are are not good enough. Wagner will play them when he thinks its right and yes he is prepared to give them ago and iwill back his judgment its a tough division to stay in never mind anything else but wagners overall approach im sure will rub off all through the club and whatever happens this season we have to stick with him because now the club has stated the route it has to follow changing managers ie coach again would be a contridiction from the chairman and board as we have to give the plan a chance to work. i include also if the club was relagated in my opinion. i believe we will stay up but be under no illusions its going to be tough but wagners style is very refreshing
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 12:01:21 GMT 1
I've been banging on for ages about giving the young ones a chance but kept getting shot down in flames and being told that they can't be good enough because Powell sees them everyday in training, and why wouldn't he use them if they were good enough. Events over the past couple of weeks have answered this to some degree and its clear that some of these lads would never have been given a proper chance under Powell. Thank goodness we now appear to have a manager who recognizes talent and is not afraid to give them a go. the debate about young players is a interesting one and ive seen a lot. judge them over six or seven games before saying they are are not good enough. Wagner will play them when he thinks its right and yes he is prepared to give them ago and iwill back his judgment its a tough division to stay in never mind anything else but wagners overall approach im sure will rub off all through the club and whatever happens this season we have to stick with him because now the club has stated the route it has to follow changing managers ie coach again would be a contridiction from the chairman and board as we have to give the plan a chance to work. i include also if the club was relagated in my opinion. i believe we will stay up but be under no illusions its going to be tough but wagners style is very refreshing Ps deans comments in the examiner are spot on regarding loan players and not becoming a feeder club for liverpool are any one but has he says two clubs with the same football ideas can be benefical all round
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Post by galpharm2400 on Dec 1, 2015 12:18:51 GMT 1
tough one..we need the points as much as we needed an improvement in obtaining them.. question is how long you give 'improving the style' without it gaining the desperately required points? 2 games where we lost 1-5 with a new manager and a new ethos requires some further patience but we are not a development squad and the league we are in isnt a 'breeding ground'.. points make prizes, showing off a full back that isnt ours does not..giving foreign players a 'showcase' for their talents might be good for their careers but if it does not bring us points we wont benefit at all..nothing says we will get any loans players on a permanent basis, in fact I doubt we will get any if they have a modicum of personal success here..they are loans after all and unless we build in first refusals then they could end up anywhere as success means higher fees.. remember we have to play another season next year and however progressive we might look now we really need to be doing it again next season in this division.. If the future under wagner is going to be development and change he is going to have to be really good at it and really quick at it.. he built a team of development at dortmund and lost a number of players and then got relegated, it sort of goes with the 'developing players' territory.. a number of good performances and they move onwards and if you havent quite got the replacements ready it drops off for a while at least.. Its not having a go, its just a note of caution for the new beggining.. 'Its much better and i can see what we are trying to do' will only last so long in a very competetive division..we cant add till january and again time then isnt on your side.. Short sighted, galph. I thought you were up for this kind of change? Give it a bloody chance, man. This may take a long while and if we have to take one step backwards to take two forward, then so be it. might be if i was talking about lillis and his brief.. only so many games to develop ideas and new ways of going on.. clearly we dont quite have the personel for it yet.. january as a starting point will be a tough one.. thats all im saying.. caution.. im prepared to give it a go and I think the system and players we have might do a lot better away on saturday.. after a long, long time watching town i am always looking for the silver lining... the one step back given our finances could be a bloody big one..
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Post by morleyterrier on Dec 1, 2015 12:23:47 GMT 1
It's way too early to be using words like 'transformation' & 'incredible' when comparing anything Wagner has done, to Powell. That includes the young players.
There have been encouraging signs under Wagner, but they don't put points on the board. The only relevant fact so far, is played 2, lost 2. For all the slagging off that's being directed at Powell, let's not forget what the results have been since he left.
Let's wait until Wagner achieves a decent run of results, like Powell did (with 11 points from 6 games between the Charlton & MK matches), before judging him. Rocky, if you are purely judging Wagner on points gained (and I appreciate that wins mean nothing to you as you have already stated separately that Powell's abysmal win % is conveniently irrelevant). Then by my reckoning to simply match Powell, Wagner has 55 games to achieve 65 points as Powell achieved this from 171 points available. I guess in terms of your stance point here. It is only after this amount of games that Wagner can be judged as to how effective he has been and what progress we may or may not have made since Powell departed which will be based on solely points gained. I disagree that this is the way that progress under Wagner should be measured, however, I accept your viewpoint and you are of course entitled to it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 12:32:18 GMT 1
Epsom is the king of the scouts. Fresh Prince knows his onions too but he was wrong about Garbutt and I was right on that one. Time will tell, he had an average to poor summer in the Euros, but didn't they all... He does seem to have regressed a touch from when he was 17/18 though. Poor management from Everton I think on that one.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 12:33:37 GMT 1
Can I just put on record that I feel that Jack Boyle has the potential to be a real star (though I envisage many Holmes like threads about his size) before Pipey claims to have spotted his talent before he was conceived He's from Scholes so that's actually quite possible. That's Scholes near Garforth. Sadly, he's a big chestwanker n all.... Top talent though, and with him being slight, now stands a much better chance under someone like Wagner, rather than under someone like Powell who likes your more functional 6ft+ players.
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Post by runner76 on Dec 1, 2015 12:49:43 GMT 1
They are so good they have a 100% loss record........
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Post by wtd on Dec 1, 2015 13:00:21 GMT 1
They are so good they have a 100% loss record........ Helpful
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Melc
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Melc on Dec 1, 2015 13:11:27 GMT 1
It's way too early to be using words like 'transformation' & 'incredible' when comparing anything Wagner has done, to Powell
Well if only getting 3 points out of our first 21 at the start of this season, and averaging one point a game is anything to go by it won't take much to surpass Powell's results achievements this season! What makes you think the boring negative ultra safe football being served up by Powell would have got any better results in this run of fixtures we have just had? Firstly, it was 6 points from the first 7 games, not 3.
Secondly, I didn't say CP would have got better results did I? You've just made that up. Truth is, we'll never know on that score.
Anyway, let's hope you're right & that Wagner comfortably 'surpasses' Powell results wise. Too early to start judging him on anything for me though, which is the point I was trying to make earlier.
Yes you are right about the 6 points counted the Nott's county game, my mistake. As I said Rocky last months fixtures where always going to be a big ask on this squad at the minute, and it will take time to get us on track.
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