rocky
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,078
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Post by rocky on Dec 1, 2015 13:12:30 GMT 1
It's way too early to be using words like 'transformation' & 'incredible' when comparing anything Wagner has done, to Powell. That includes the young players.
There have been encouraging signs under Wagner, but they don't put points on the board. The only relevant fact so far, is played 2, lost 2. For all the slagging off that's being directed at Powell, let's not forget what the results have been since he left.
Let's wait until Wagner achieves a decent run of results, like Powell did (with 11 points from 6 games between the Charlton & MK matches), before judging him. Rocky, if you are purely judging Wagner on points gained ( and I appreciate that wins mean nothing to you as you have already stated separately that Powell's abysmal win % is conveniently irrelevant). Listen mate, there's no point me trying to debate this sensibly with you. All you're doing is taking things that I have previously said completely out of context & turning them into something totally different. No better example than the bit I've put in bold.
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Post by morleyterrier on Dec 1, 2015 13:33:26 GMT 1
Rocky, if you are purely judging Wagner on points gained ( and I appreciate that wins mean nothing to you as you have already stated separately that Powell's abysmal win % is conveniently irrelevant). Listen mate, there's no point me trying to debate this sensibly with you. All you're doing is taking things that I have previously said completely out of context & turning them into something totally different. No better example than the bit I've put in bold. I accept my words should have stated that wins mean nothing to you and are completely irrelevant when you are judging the success of a Manager and not wins mean nothing to you. I stand corrected.
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Post by runner76 on Dec 1, 2015 14:05:18 GMT 1
They are so good they have a 100% loss record........ Helpful factual
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Post by CaptainHart on Dec 1, 2015 14:31:33 GMT 1
I remember when we arseholed Bournemouth 5-1 the season before they went up. You could still see the germ of what they were trying to do even when Vaughan was battering them. Eddie Howe's comment after that game: "That's the way we play, we'll continue to play that way. We need to learn how to be better at it" (or words to that effect.)
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Post by wtd on Dec 1, 2015 14:40:16 GMT 1
factual Cynical
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Post by galpharm2400 on Dec 1, 2015 14:47:34 GMT 1
factual Cynical its what happens in football discussions when you start muddying the ' waters of opinion' with 'facts'...
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Dec 1, 2015 15:03:28 GMT 1
factual More of a fact would be that the experienced Mark Hudson was at fault for two goals and an injury to our goalie at Sheffield Wednesday which undid all the good work that the likes of Kyle Dempsey had put in.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Dec 1, 2015 15:17:34 GMT 1
factual More of a fact would be that the experienced Mark Hudson was at fault for two goals and an injury to our goalie at Sheffield Wednesday which undid all the good work that the likes of Kyle Dempsey had put in. new centre half/new striker?? hopefully both but i think the centre half might be the priority.. we still with a new striker might have to score too many... if we are shifting up and down as a unit hudson is very much out of place now..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 16:15:20 GMT 1
Interesting that we kept being told that some of our younger lads weren't 'ready' under CP. Under Wagner we've seen a transformation and Lolley, Smith, Holmes, Dempsey and Bojaj have all been involved and have impressed. Add Chilwell to that list of youngsters and the impact has been incredible. If they're good enough they're ready and under Wagner I think we're going to see different players to the ones we thought we knew. Can't wait to see the new look Ishy making an impact. What i find interesting is that Lolley got a number of starts under Powell. One being Rotherham at home where he did well but we did poor as a team and he got injured, another brum away where he did well and scored but was visibly tired and we drew 1- 1 after pressing for most of the game. Holmes literally had a cameo appearance where we all knew we was not in the ascendency despite mountains of possession and did little, Dempsey who apparently had a good game (i wasn't there tbf) at Sheff W, but then got dropped and then Bojaj who also had another cameo appearance. Bojaj under Powell created an assist for the MK dons game. And don't get me started on Smith he was rated when he broke through and then many bemoaned the fact that he was still in the team, until Powell dropped him for the safer, but less attacking Cranie.
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Post by jstorr13 on Dec 1, 2015 16:20:29 GMT 1
I wouldn't say the young players we have weren't good enough for Powell.. it simply comes down to his own strategy of winning games. Powell was very defensive as we all saw, to play defensively with young players is a risk, especially at Championship level and it was quite clear that CP wouldn't change this regardless of how well the youth players were performing.
I really can't criticise CP in any way.. it's simply two completely different managers with their own ways of working.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 16:26:42 GMT 1
I wouldn't say the young players we have weren't good enough for Powell.. it simply comes down to his own strategy of winning games. Powell was very defensive as we all saw, to play defensively with young players is a risk, especially at Championship level and it was quite clear that CP wouldn't change this regardless of how well the youth players were performing. I really can't criticise CP in any way.. it's simply two completely different managers with their own ways of working. I agree, but from saturday I am very optimistic about the future. I genuinely believe we are more likely to get relegated now than under powell. But as long as the fans get behind him, the players get behind him. Then we genuinely can have something to look forward to. It's amazing the amount of people i heard that were so reactionary over the result than the performance after middlesboro game.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Dec 1, 2015 16:34:43 GMT 1
I wouldn't say the young players we have weren't good enough for Powell.. it simply comes down to his own strategy of winning games. Powell was very defensive as we all saw, to play defensively with young players is a risk, especially at Championship level and it was quite clear that CP wouldn't change this regardless of how well the youth players were performing. I really can't criticise CP in any way.. it's simply two completely different managers with their own ways of working. I agree, but from saturday I am very optimistic about the future. I genuinely believe we are more likely to get relegated now than under powell. But as long as the fans get behind him, the players get behind him. Then we genuinely can have something to look forward to. It's amazing the amount of people i heard that were so reactionary over the result than the performance after middlesboro game. I dont think it was even the result that caused the bother.. lucky goal and one on the break both permitted by ongoing faults that he inherited anyway.. It was simply our inability to turn so much possession in their half into chances that worried a lot of people. We had massive possession under robbins but never anything like as far up the pitch so the lack of a striker(Players) in the box or balls into dangerous areas was the slight annoyance, it was for wagner as well.. He can now address it.. Its more the nil that caused the problem with some of the support.. nil, is at the moment going to be a very hard score to get anything out of points wise..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 17:00:10 GMT 1
I agree, but from saturday I am very optimistic about the future. I genuinely believe we are more likely to get relegated now than under powell. But as long as the fans get behind him, the players get behind him. Then we genuinely can have something to look forward to. It's amazing the amount of people i heard that were so reactionary over the result than the performance after middlesboro game. I dont think it was even the result that caused the bother.. lucky goal and one on the break both permitted by ongoing faults that he inherited anyway.. It was simply our inability to turn so much possession in their half into chances that worried a lot of people. We had massive possession under robbins but never anything like as far up the pitch so the lack of a striker(Players) in the box or balls into dangerous areas was the slight annoyance, it was for wagner as well.. He can now address it.. Its more the nil that caused the problem with some of the support.. nil, is at the moment going to be a very hard score to get anything out of points wise.. Absolutely. And that's why i said it was reactionary, people need to look at the bigger picture. But when i do I genuinely do not believe our youth will make a big difference. When was the last time we got some youth forward players breaking through that were hungry strong and had a decent footballing brain? Stead? Hopefully Bojaj can do it for us. Hopefully our mentality will now be more positive and people will get in the bloody box, but this is very mark robins 2.0 at the minute, apart from the pressing in their half
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Post by Headless Chicken on Dec 1, 2015 20:33:43 GMT 1
He's from Scholes so that's actually quite possible. That's Scholes near Garforth. Sadly, he's a big chestwanker n all.... Top talent though, and with him being slight, now stands a much better chance under someone like Wagner, rather than under someone like Powell who likes your more functional 6ft+ players. Remember you made 'chestwanker' up and only a few of us actually know what you mean for sure
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 20:59:44 GMT 1
That's Scholes near Garforth. Sadly, he's a big chestwanker n all.... Top talent though, and with him being slight, now stands a much better chance under someone like Wagner, rather than under someone like Powell who likes your more functional 6ft+ players. Remember you made 'chestwanker' up and only a few of us actually know what you mean for sure I'm sure everyone is aware of Leeds fans and the invisible phallus they have on their chest...
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Post by 3Pipe on Dec 1, 2015 21:22:30 GMT 1
Epsom is the king of the scouts. Fresh Prince knows his onions too but he was wrong about Garbutt and I was right on that one. Time will tell, he had an average to poor summer in the Euros, but didn't they all... He does seem to have regressed a touch from when he was 17/18 though. Poor management from Everton I think on that one.Why? What else could they do? He's simply not good enough.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 0:41:11 GMT 1
Time will tell, he had an average to poor summer in the Euros, but didn't they all... He does seem to have regressed a touch from when he was 17/18 though. Poor management from Everton I think on that one.Why? What else could they do? He's simply not good enough. Not good enough for what exactly? Like Chips said, shades of grey. Sounds like you're writing off a youngster, I thought you were a self proclaimed champion of them Prior to joining Fulham on loan this season, he spent 18 months on the periphery at Everton. 20/21 is such a key development age and kids need to play some form of regular football at that stage to develop further. Playing little to no football for 12/18 months is in my book poor management, as through that stage Everton had willing takers for him on loan, one of them being us.
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Post by 3Pipe on Dec 2, 2015 1:00:42 GMT 1
I'm a self proclaimed champion of footballers who can cross a ball. That string of performances last summer was beyond shite. I've never seen a pro footballer fuck up so many crosses and set pieces in my life. He's been loaned out to Colchester, Cheltenham and Fulham and he's had 5 games for Everton. I don't see what else they can do if the lad quite obviously is having trouble performing the basics of his job.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 15:10:43 GMT 1
I'm a self proclaimed champion of footballers who can cross a ball. That string of performances last summer was beyond shite. I've never seen a pro footballer fuck up so many crosses and set pieces in my life. He's been loaned out to Colchester, Cheltenham and Fulham and he's had 5 games for Everton. I don't see what else they can do if the lad quite obviously is having trouble performing the basics of his job. Good job that you missed Dempsey's crossing on Saturday You had some weird personal thing going against Garbutt, still do. Prior to the 2 games that you saw him in, you were sausage in hand about him, but then went on to attack every misplaced pass and cross. It was bizarre... It was like you'd caught him in the wardrobe whilst tumbling your Mrs 5 mins before the first game. So you wanted to blaze him on DATM as an act of revenge . Re your never seeing him fuck up so many crosses.. He was your only target for daftness, despite being shown stats that Garbutt's passing and cross completion % was better than Jenkinson on the other flank... Anyway... Good job you're not having a pop at others for judging the kids on such a small sample size As an aside, it's disappointing to see what's happened to that all conquering England u17 Euros winning side from 2010. Many of them seemed set for a really good future but have died a death... Most disappointing are Josh McEachren who danced round Paul Pogba in the semi final, but has done nothing since and Connor Wickham who made a really bad move to Sunderland and hasn't recovered. Others disappointments that haven't fulfilled their potential yet are Nathaniel Chalobah, Andre Wisdom, Will Keane and Robert Hall. Having said that Jack Butland, Saido Berahino, Benik Afobe and Ross Barkley have done well. Barkley and Berahino were fringe players as well for some part. Odd lark this player development game.
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Post by 3Pipe on Dec 2, 2015 19:18:28 GMT 1
And yet still not as odd as your post. I've never seen someone defend a player so stoutly who was so utterly shite. EVERY dead ball and cross the lad attempted failed, every one. Under hitting them, over hitting them, skewing them straight out of play, it was a comedy of errors. Utterly, utterly shite. Nothing personal at all, it's calling it as it was. What was really bizarre was your need to defend him like he was your love child. You called it completely wrong, every misplaced pass and cross was brought up by me to highlight what a bad call you had made. It was like an old Greek tragicomedy with you and Garbutt on centre stage. Aye, some of that side have pushed on, some haven't. That's football. You're only trying to deflect from Garbutt, the sole topic of discussion here. You didn't provide any stats at all either, as I remember. And to imply Jenkinson was worse is just digging yourself in deeper, especially in light of how the two have progressed (or in the case of Garbutt, regressed) since. I called it right, but keep on digging and defelecting and making up stats by all means. Even Slapps doesn't revert to the latter.
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Dec 2, 2015 20:01:47 GMT 1
I'm a self proclaimed champion of footballers who can cross a ball. That string of performances last summer was beyond shite. I've never seen a pro footballer fuck up so many crosses and set pieces in my life. He's been loaned out to Colchester, Cheltenham and Fulham and he's had 5 games for Everton. I don't see what else they can do if the lad quite obviously is having trouble performing the basics of his job. Good job that you missed Dempsey's crossing on Saturday You had some weird personal thing going against Garbutt, still do. Prior to the 2 games that you saw him in, you were sausage in hand about him, but then went on to attack every misplaced pass and cross. It was bizarre... It was like you'd caught him in the wardrobe whilst tumbling your Mrs 5 mins before the first game. So you wanted to blaze him on DATM as an act of revenge . Re your never seeing him fuck up so many crosses.. He was your only target for daftness, despite being shown stats that Garbutt's passing and cross completion % was better than Jenkinson on the other flank... Anyway... Good job you're not having a pop at others for judging the kids on such a small sample size As an aside, it's disappointing to see what's happened to that all conquering England u17 Euros winning side from 2010. Many of them seemed set for a really good future but have died a death... Most disappointing are Josh McEachren who danced round Paul Pogba in the semi final, but has done nothing since and Connor Wickham who made a really bad move to Sunderland and hasn't recovered. Others disappointments that haven't fulfilled their potential yet are Nathaniel Chalobah, Andre Wisdom, Will Keane and Robert Hall. Having said that Jack Butland, Saido Berahino, Benik Afobe and Ross Barkley have done well. Barkley and Berahino were fringe players as well for some part. Odd lark this player development game. Will be interesting to see what happens to the u-17 Euro winners from 18 months ago. I really enjoyed watching that team. Solanke is predicted for big things, I've seen Josh Onomah come on for Spurs recently and he looked great in that tournament. Joe Gomez was an absolute boss at the back and JonJoe Kenny at right back was very impressive too.
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