The big question - how was the change of ownership financed?

[hthtafs]

Firstly Dean Hoyle was a magnificent custodian of our football club. Given the financial & emotional investment he put into the club he was entitled to a return.

The club at close of play May 2019, was worth somewhere between zero and the value of the next 3 seasons parachute payments £90m; working on the assumption the playing assets could be disposed off at nil cost including payment of contracted salaries to the playing staff.

The big question is how much has Phil paid for the club, or rather maybe it’s how much has Dean taken out of future revenue streams. In short how was the deal financed?

None of us fully understand Phil’s financial position, however it’s safe to assume he’s not minted by football chairman standards.

There is a school of thought TV rights may have been sold to the likes tickitus (this has happened at other clubs) in order to enable Phil to pay Dean, say £37.5m for his 75% share. Maybe such a transaction would need to be registered as a charge against the club? Maybe someone could enlighten me?

Clearly this is purely conjecture and speculation, however until this question is answered, there will be a lingering suspicion that the deal for the change of ownership of our beloved club, has sold us as a fan base down the river.

[towntastic]

why is it safe to assume he is minted ?

[rantinray]

Aug 9, 2019 16:40:23 GMT 1 hthtafs said:

Firstly Dean Hoyle was a magnificent custodian of our football club. Given the financial & emotional investment he put into the club he was entitled to a return.

The club at close of play May 2019, was worth somewhere between zero and the value of the next 3 seasons parachute payments £90m; working on the assumption the playing assets could be disposed off at nil cost including payment of contracted salaries to the playing staff.

The big question is how much has Phil paid for the club, or rather maybe it’s how much has Dean taken out of future revenue streams. In short how was the deal financed?

None of us fully understand Phil’s financial position, however it’s safe to assume he’s minted by football chairman standards.

There is a school of thought TV rights may have been sold to the likes tickitus (this has happened at other clubs) in order to enable Phil to pay Dean, say £37.5m for his 75% share. Maybe such a transaction would need to be registered as a charge against the club? Maybe someone could enlighten me?

Clearly this is purely conjecture and speculation, however until this question is answered, there will be a lingering suspicion that the deal for the change of ownership of our beloved club, has sold us as a fan base down the river.

Is this any of our business? As fans we have a very very tiny stake in the club and that stake lasts for one season then we have to sign up again.

[hthtafs]

Aug 9, 2019 16:44:09 GMT 1 towntastic said:

why is it safe to assume he is minted ?

Corrected to NOT apologies

[k1man999]

Aug 9, 2019 16:40:23 GMT 1 hthtafs said:

Firstly Dean Hoyle was a magnificent custodian of our football club. Given the financial & emotional investment he put into the club he was entitled to a return.

The club at close of play May 2019, was worth somewhere between zero and the value of the next 3 seasons parachute payments £90m; working on the assumption the playing assets could be disposed off at nil cost including payment of contracted salaries to the playing staff.

The big question is how much has Phil paid for the club, or rather maybe it’s how much has Dean taken out of future revenue streams. In short how was the deal financed?

None of us fully understand Phil’s financial position, however it’s safe to assume he’s minted by football chairman standards.

There is a school of thought TV rights may have been sold to the likes tickitus (this has happened at other clubs) in order to enable Phil to pay Dean, say £37.5m for his 75% share. Maybe such a transaction would need to be registered as a charge against the club? Maybe someone could enlighten me?

Clearly this is purely conjecture and speculation, however until this question is answered, there will be a lingering suspicion that the deal for the change of ownership of our beloved club, has sold us as a fan base down the river.

All the reports ie companies house other business people Southport fans our fans ITK suggest he's as minted as the guy who sits outside WH smiths with his dog and paper cup in football terms.
If he were minted in football terms we wouldn't be shopping at pound land.

[hthtafs]

Aug 9, 2019 16:51:14 GMT 1 rantinray said:

Aug 9, 2019 16:40:23 GMT 1 hthtafs said:

Firstly Dean Hoyle was a magnificent custodian of our football club. Given the financial & emotional investment he put into the club he was entitled to a return.

The club at close of play May 2019, was worth somewhere between zero and the value of the next 3 seasons parachute payments £90m; working on the assumption the playing assets could be disposed off at nil cost including payment of contracted salaries to the playing staff.

The big question is how much has Phil paid for the club, or rather maybe it’s how much has Dean taken out of future revenue streams. In short how was the deal financed?

None of us fully understand Phil’s financial position, however it’s safe to assume he’s minted by football chairman standards.

There is a school of thought TV rights may have been sold to the likes tickitus (this has happened at other clubs) in order to enable Phil to pay Dean, say £37.5m for his 75% share. Maybe such a transaction would need to be registered as a charge against the club? Maybe someone could enlighten me?

Clearly this is purely conjecture and speculation, however until this question is answered, there will be a lingering suspicion that the deal for the change of ownership of our beloved club, has sold us as a fan base down the river.

Is this any of our business? As fans we have a very very tiny stake in the club and that stake lasts for one season then we have to sign up again.

I think if Hoyle is happy to take the adulation for investing, when leaving he needs to be big enough to admit how much he is taking out.

[rantinray]

Aug 9, 2019 16:56:53 GMT 1 hthtafs said:

Aug 9, 2019 16:51:14 GMT 1 rantinray said:

Is this any of our business? As fans we have a very very tiny stake in the club and that stake lasts for one season then we have to sign up again.

I think if Hoyle is happy to take the adulation for investing, when leaving he needs to be big enough to admit how much he is taking out.

I would think he would at least recoup his investment which includes what he paid Davy. Personally I am not interested. The guy is a business man and football chairmen dont all get their investment returned. So, if he has got his money back he has been fortunate.

[detox]

it's not only the loans though, how much time did DH spend managing the club,unpaid ? Ok it's his own club, and yes you might say he had a vested interest to make his investment work for him...fair enough.. In the end he was successful and as he resigned from chairman was entitled to have his loans repaid.. that should have been down to Phil, but in reality it isn't because Phil can pay the loans off with club funds (sky money) ..Cutting the staff and flogging players frees up cash within the club to pay DH and to avoid Phil having to pump cash in to replace that money and to keep the club solvent.. that's what it looks like to me. What should have happened is all the sky parachute money should remain within the club for funding players etc and Phil should have paid DH from his own bank account.

Am I right or wrong, maybe that is too simplistic ?

[sandgrounder]

The million dollar question indeed. The fans have a right to know as it impacts on the future of their club. Dean always played the custodian card and therefore why not be transparent about the structure of the deal? Accept finer detail should remain confidential but an outline of the structure is needed to put this to bed once and for all.

His podcast was good but it was the DH appreciation cast. He deserves the fanfares he made dreams come true. Equally he loves the club and is one of us so come on Dean calm everyone’s nerves?

[Baby Ate My Eight Ball]

Wasn’t the OP outed as a Leeds fan years ago?

Plenty of chickens/owls/weeds etc have crawled back out this week from under whatever rock they’ve been hibernating under for 2 years.

[themanfromatlantis]

I suppose those with much deeper pockets than me could have clubbed together to submit an alternative bid to PH?

I really don't know why people are on this crusade to get these things laid bare - it might not be great if it's ever revealed in the fullness of time, but given the Davy/Hoyle saga that played out a few yrs ago, why would DH strike a deal that threatens his boyhood football club?

What are you going to do if you do find out it's not what you expected, get your burning pitchforks out, demand a public enquiry, ask DH to step back in?

Why not give the guy a bit of time? We gave DH loads of that all the way back then, because the club was in a totally different place. Just because we've spent more on transfers in the last 3yrs than we did in the previous 53 seems to have triggered a mindset that this is the new norm for us. It never was going to be, it was about making sure the club didn't go down the same route as so many others & put in place a structure & facilities that would support longevity at this level of the pyramid.

Can't remember the specifics, but didn't DH put the club into some sort of trust that would prevent future ownership from running it into the ground?

If you're an accountant with a genuine interest in the mechanics then fair enough, but then I'd expect those people to be having those conversations less publicly than on here.

We've a game tomorrow...

[Deleted]

Fuck.
Me.
Rigid.

[Wagner Uber Alles]

I don’t buy this recent trend in society for everyone to have the “right” the know about everything, all the time, warts and all. It’s pointless and it’s destructive.

As far as our club is concerned, most people are not qualified to understand financials let alone how to run a business. Let those whose responsibility it is to run the club just get on with it.

We can begin to judge how good they are after the first season is out of the way and their first full year of accounts are published.

[Town Duppy]

Aug 9, 2019 17:38:25 GMT 1 @delroyspipe said:

Fuck.
Me.
Rigid.

I'm with Love Sausage..........

[Chips Longhorn]

Can we escort this wum out of the building?

[allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF)]

Aug 9, 2019 16:56:53 GMT 1 hthtafs said:

Aug 9, 2019 16:51:14 GMT 1 rantinray said:

Is this any of our business? As fans we have a very very tiny stake in the club and that stake lasts for one season then we have to sign up again.

I think if Hoyle is happy to take the adulation for investing, when leaving he needs to be big enough to admit how much he is taking out.

He didn't ask for the adulation, he earned it.

he has also earned and deserves respect, the law protects his privacy. Non of your business!

[Chips Longhorn]

Aug 9, 2019 17:34:50 GMT 1 sandgrounder said:

The million dollar question indeed. The fans have a right to know as it impacts on the future of their club. Dean always played the custodian card and therefore why not be transparent about the structure of the deal? Accept finer detail should remain confidential but an outline of the structure is needed to put this to bed once and for all.

His podcast was good but it was the DH appreciation cast. He deserves the fanfares he made dreams come true. Equally he loves the club and is one of us so come on Dean calm everyone’s nerves?

Non one's nervous apart from the wums .. its not your business.. chill out chief

[galpharm2400]

Guess we will have as many experts on high finance as we have on football management. Unfortunately for us they chose a different career path and can only pass on their extensive knowledge gained over years of Doing nothing like either, on here.🤔

[allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF)]

Aug 9, 2019 17:34:50 GMT 1 sandgrounder said:

The million dollar question indeed. The fans have a right to know as it impacts on the future of their club. Dean always played the custodian card and therefore why not be transparent about the structure of the deal? Accept finer detail should remain confidential but an outline of the structure is needed to put this to bed once and for all.

His podcast was good but it was the DH appreciation cast. He deserves the fanfares he made dreams come true. Equally he loves the club and is one of us so come on Dean calm everyone’s nerves?

No they don't have a right, they have an investment in the club and its future.

The new owner was picked by Dean as a safe pair of hands. End of story.

[royrace]

I’d love to see some figures written down because I’ve got to be honest it does seem mighty strange that a club that was run as frugally as town were in the premier league can be relegated with relegation clauses in place but still be forced to sell key expensive players and replace with cheap replacements of a worse standard than teams like Luton are buying.

I’ve got to be honest I just don’t get it, with the outgoings to date including a very expensive manager it seems odd that we’re in the position we’re in. I say position we’re in yet we keep being told we’re in a superb financial position. It’s all very peculiar.

We’re apparently in brilliant financial health yet we seem desperate to get rid of certain players leaving big holes in the squad whilst bringing in players from a lower level.

It’s hardly surprising that people are questioning how the deal is structured with some suspecting player sales and or parachute money will be used either directly or indirectly.

I’ve really no idea but it’s hardly surprising questions are being asked. My suspicion is that Mounie is the latest to be touted about, that should hopefully allow the club to trouser another 10M and 30k per week maybe?

Maybe someone with the time and inclination can put together some illustrations to show where the cash is going.

I’ve got to say this isn’t what I expected after the inevitable relegation, call me naive but I expected town to be better shape than ever to mount a push, not scratting round in the bargain basement already short in a number of positions and wondering where the next win is coming from.

[Maynardblue]

Aug 9, 2019 17:25:58 GMT 1 detox said:

it's not only the loans though, how much time did DH spend managing the club,unpaid ? Ok it's his own club, and yes you might say he had a vested interest to make his investment work for him...fair enough.. In the end he was successful and as he resigned from chairman was entitled to have his loans repaid.. that should have been down to Phil, but in reality it isn't because Phil can pay the loans off with club funds (sky money) ..Cutting the staff and flogging players frees up cash within the club to pay DH and to avoid Phil having to pump cash in to replace that money and to keep the club solvent.. that's what it looks like to me. What should have happened is all the sky parachute money should remain within the club for funding players etc and Phil should have paid DH from his own bank account.

Am I right or wrong, maybe that is too simplistic ?

FFS how many times. PH Paid DH with his own money! Don't let facts get in the way though. People don't realise what damage is being done with these baseless accusations.

[blueandbrightside]

Aug 9, 2019 17:25:58 GMT 1 detox said:

it's not only the loans though, how much time did DH spend managing the club,unpaid ? Ok it's his own club, and yes you might say he had a vested interest to make his investment work for him...fair enough.. In the end he was successful and as he resigned from chairman was entitled to have his loans repaid.. that should have been down to Phil, but in reality it isn't because Phil can pay the loans off with club funds (sky money) ..Cutting the staff and flogging players frees up cash within the club to pay DH and to avoid Phil having to pump cash in to replace that money and to keep the club solvent.. that's what it looks like to me. What should have happened is all the sky parachute money should remain within the club for funding players etc and Phil should have paid DH from his own bank account.

Am I right or wrong, maybe that is too simplistic ?

I’m no expert but my simplistic view would be if you buy a business then surely you agree a mutually acceptable price with the seller and pay that. How much blood sweat and tears you have put in is kind of immaterial to the buyer except how valuable a business you have built, or not. If the business has debt you then take over a business with a debt. As buyer you’d have checked that the business has the capability to generate money to pay back the debt a some point. If it can’t you are clearly buying a loss making enterprise and you have to question why you’d pay any money for it at all as you’d have to put money in. If the debt happens to be with the person you are buying it from then you could agree a price based on them writing off the debt or a price that leaves the company owing them the debt going forward.

[zoso]

Aug 9, 2019 16:56:53 GMT 1 hthtafs said:

Aug 9, 2019 16:51:14 GMT 1 rantinray said:

Is this any of our business? As fans we have a very very tiny stake in the club and that stake lasts for one season then we have to sign up again.

I think if Hoyle is happy to take the adulation for investing, when leaving he needs to be big enough to admit how much he is taking out.

Why's that then?

[foxtrot666]

The big question is how many more stupid threads like this are we going to get.

[zoso]

Aug 9, 2019 19:01:43 GMT 1 foxtrot666 said:

The big question is how many more stupid threads like this are we going to get.

Probably plenty!  

[otium (EPBS)]

Aug 9, 2019 16:51:14 GMT 1 rantinray said:

Aug 9, 2019 16:40:23 GMT 1 hthtafs said:

Firstly Dean Hoyle was a magnificent custodian of our football club. Given the financial & emotional investment he put into the club he was entitled to a return.

The club at close of play May 2019, was worth somewhere between zero and the value of the next 3 seasons parachute payments £90m; working on the assumption the playing assets could be disposed off at nil cost including payment of contracted salaries to the playing staff.

The big question is how much has Phil paid for the club, or rather maybe it’s how much has Dean taken out of future revenue streams. In short how was the deal financed?

None of us fully understand Phil’s financial position, however it’s safe to assume he’s minted by football chairman standards.

There is a school of thought TV rights may have been sold to the likes tickitus (this has happened at other clubs) in order to enable Phil to pay Dean, say £37.5m for his 75% share. Maybe such a transaction would need to be registered as a charge against the club? Maybe someone could enlighten me?

Clearly this is purely conjecture and speculation, however until this question is answered, there will be a lingering suspicion that the deal for the change of ownership of our beloved club, has sold us as a fan base down the river.

Is this any of our business? As fans we have a very very tiny stake in the club and that stake lasts for one season then we have to sign up again.

I totally disagree with that. We ARE the club. Administration happened because of financial mismanagement. We nearly did not have a club.

[otium (EPBS)]

Aug 9, 2019 17:37:26 GMT 1 themanfromatlantis said:

I suppose those with much deeper pockets than me could have clubbed together to submit an alternative bid to PH?

I really don't know why people are on this crusade to get these things laid bare - it might not be great if it's ever revealed in the fullness of time, but given the Davy/Hoyle saga that played out a few yrs ago, why would DH strike a deal that threatens his boyhood football club?

What are you going to do if you do find out it's not what you expected, get your burning pitchforks out, demand a public enquiry, ask DH to step back in?

Why not give the guy a bit of time? We gave DH loads of that all the way back then, because the club was in a totally different place. Just because we've spent more on transfers in the last 3yrs than we did in the previous 53 seems to have triggered a mindset that this is the new norm for us. It never was going to be, it was about making sure the club didn't go down the same route as so many others & put in place a structure & facilities that would support longevity at this level of the pyramid.

Can't remember the specifics, but didn't DH put the club into some sort of trust that would prevent future ownership from running it into the ground?

If you're an accountant with a genuine interest in the mechanics then fair enough, but then I'd expect those people to be having those conversations less publicly than on here.

We've a game tomorrow...

Fishy, your heart is in the right place. It is your head i worry about.

[Deleted]

Aug 9, 2019 16:40:23 GMT 1 hthtafs said:

Firstly Dean Hoyle was a magnificent custodian of our football club. Given the financial & emotional investment he put into the club he was entitled to a return.

The club at close of play May 2019, was worth somewhere between zero and the value of the next 3 seasons parachute payments £90m; working on the assumption the playing assets could be disposed off at nil cost including payment of contracted salaries to the playing staff.

The big question is how much has Phil paid for the club, or rather maybe it’s how much has Dean taken out of future revenue streams. In short how was the deal financed?

None of us fully understand Phil’s financial position, however it’s safe to assume he’s not minted by football chairman standards.

There is a school of thought TV rights may have been sold to the likes tickitus (this has happened at other clubs) in order to enable Phil to pay Dean, say £37.5m for his 75% share. Maybe such a transaction would need to be registered as a charge against the club? Maybe someone could enlighten me?

Clearly this is purely conjecture and speculation, however until this question is answered, there will be a lingering suspicion that the deal for the change of ownership of our beloved club, has sold us as a fan base down the river.

What a load of nonsense - a) speak for yourself and not project your own financial tosh onto everyone else And b) Given that the club owed DH £50m he could have sold it for a £1 and agreed contractually with PH for it to be paid back to him over a long run period - it's nothing to do with you - as you say - conjecture and speculation... 

[wainwright]

Aug 9, 2019 18:47:41 GMT 1 Maynardblue said:

Aug 9, 2019 17:25:58 GMT 1 detox said:

it's not only the loans though, how much time did DH spend managing the club,unpaid ? Ok it's his own club, and yes you might say he had a vested interest to make his investment work for him...fair enough.. In the end he was successful and as he resigned from chairman was entitled to have his loans repaid.. that should have been down to Phil, but in reality it isn't because Phil can pay the loans off with club funds (sky money) ..Cutting the staff and flogging players frees up cash within the club to pay DH and to avoid Phil having to pump cash in to replace that money and to keep the club solvent.. that's what it looks like to me. What should have happened is all the sky parachute money should remain within the club for funding players etc and Phil should have paid DH from his own bank account.

Am I right or wrong, maybe that is too simplistic ?

FFS how many times. PH Paid DH with his own money! Don't let facts get in the way though. People don't realise what damage is being done with these baseless accusations.

Says who? How much did he pay for the shares?

[Deleted]

Aug 9, 2019 18:35:49 GMT 1 royrace said:

I’d love to see some figures written down because I’ve got to be honest it does seem mighty strange that a club that was run as frugally as town were in the premier league can be relegated with relegation clauses in place but still be forced to sell key expensive players and replace with cheap replacements of a worse standard than teams like Luton are buying.

I’ve got to be honest I just don’t get it, with the outgoings to date including a very expensive manager it seems odd that we’re in the position we’re in. I say position we’re in yet we keep being told we’re in a superb financial position. It’s all very peculiar.

We’re apparently in brilliant financial health yet we seem desperate to get rid of certain players leaving big holes in the squad whilst bringing in players from a lower level.

It’s hardly surprising that people are questioning how the deal is structured with some suspecting player sales and or parachute money will be used either directly or indirectly.

I’ve really no idea but it’s hardly surprising questions are being asked. My suspicion is that Mounie is the latest to be touted about, that should hopefully allow the club to trouser another 10M and 30k per week maybe?

Maybe someone with the time and inclination can put together some illustrations to show where the cash is going.

I’ve got to say this isn’t what I expected after the inevitable relegation, call me naive but I expected town to be better shape than ever to mount a push, not scratting round in the bargain basement already short in a number of positions and wondering where the next win is coming from.

It's not about the current financial situation - it's about looking at possible projected revenues and expenditures over say the next three years in the event of no return to the PL gold rush.... next year even club expenditure will be in excess of income - failure to address this now and you end up with a Bolton scenario