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Post by H7 on Aug 13, 2019 23:12:24 GMT 1
Purely for debate purposes was the town job post Wagner a poisoned chalice?
Jan has inherited a team devoid of all confidence that were already dead and gone. Several players speaking publicly about leaving and no doubt unrest in the camp. He had a chairman that knew he was stepping down. There’s clearly been no funds available during the summer despite two years in the premier league, parachute payments and taking in sizeable transfer fees. Lost Aaron mooy on deadline day. There’s also probably a fair amount of players that also don’t want to be here. The club is clearly in a mess.
Would anyone have succeeded?
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Aug 13, 2019 23:13:43 GMT 1
Purely for debate purposes was the town job post Wagner a poisoned chalice? Jan has inherited a team devoid of all confidence that were already dead and gone. Several players speaking publicly about leaving and no doubt unrest in the camp. He had a chairman that knew he was stepping down. There’s clearly been no funds available during the summer despite two years in the premier league, parachute payments and taking in sizeable transfer fees. Lost Aaron mooy on deadline day. There’s also probably a fair amount of players that also don’t want to be here. The club is clearly in a mess. Would anyone have succeeded? Just made a similar point elsewhere... |
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Post by H7 on Aug 13, 2019 23:16:48 GMT 1
Purely for debate purposes was the town job post Wagner a poisoned chalice? Jan has inherited a team devoid of all confidence that were already dead and gone. Several players speaking publicly about leaving and no doubt unrest in the camp. He had a chairman that knew he was stepping down. There’s clearly been no funds available during the summer despite two years in the premier league, parachute payments and taking in sizeable transfer fees. Lost Aaron mooy on deadline day. There’s also probably a fair amount of players that also don’t want to be here. The club is clearly in a mess. Would anyone have succeeded? Just made a similar point elsewhere... Just been on your posts to read and yes I share a lot of your thoughts, which have been presented far more eloquently than I put it! |
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Post by upthetown on Aug 13, 2019 23:17:50 GMT 1
It’s been a weird 8-9 months.
Siewert seemed low key for a premier league club.
Hardly spending in January - I agreed with, as we were down. But assumed we’d have more of a go in the summer.
If Siewert does go shortly then we’ve totally wasted summer and pre-season.
Yet I still maintain Mounié doesn’t get sent off vs Brighton (for nothing) and our up turn in form, that we’d have gone in to January in a much better position, strengthened, kept Wagner at least until the summer and been in with a shout of staying up. Despite results I still felt we looked much better/more competitive early last season than we did for most of our first season.
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Post by boooothy on Aug 13, 2019 23:19:18 GMT 1
I have so many questions about things i don’t understand and they can’t all be down to Jan bin shit.
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Post by Captainslapper on Aug 13, 2019 23:21:19 GMT 1
Purely for debate purposes was the town job post Wagner a poisoned chalice? Jan has inherited a team devoid of all confidence that were already dead and gone. Several players speaking publicly about leaving and no doubt unrest in the camp. He had a chairman that knew he was stepping down. There’s clearly been no funds available during the summer despite two years in the premier league, parachute payments and taking in sizeable transfer fees. Lost Aaron mooy on deadline day. There’s also probably a fair amount of players that also don’t want to be here. The club is clearly in a mess. Would anyone have succeeded? Think all that is true but not sure its an excuse for the confused shambles hes made of the job since he got it. He seems to have waltzed into the dressing room, got everyones back up straight away, had nothing whatsoever to back himself up with in terms of his own achievements, and organised a confused system of playing that doesn;t work. A year ago we were very unluckily losing to Liverpool and spurs thanks to some terrible reffing and sheer bad luck. 12 months on our young keeper is stopping us being hammered at home to Lincoln city in one of the most disjointed, crappest performances weve had for many a year. |
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Post by runner76 on Aug 13, 2019 23:23:33 GMT 1
All the current problems are the culmination of a badly managed last 12 months. Jan totally not the only one to blame, he is just the fall guy. Luckily for the club, likely not a hugely expensive one, but I can’t see him going yet......
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Aug 13, 2019 23:25:41 GMT 1
It’s been a weird 8-9 months. Siewert seemed low key for a premier league club. Hardly spending in January - I agreed with, as we were down. But assumed we’d have more of a go in the summer. If Siewert does go shortly then we’ve totally wasted summer and pre-season. Yet I still maintain Mounié doesn’t get sent off vs Brighton (for nothing) and our up turn in form, that we’d have gone in to January in a much better position, strengthened, kept Wagner at least until the summer and been in with a shout of staying up. Despite results I still felt we looked much better/more competitive early last season than we did for most of our first season. Yeah it's amazing how such fine margins cause such huge chasms |
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Post by Captainslapper on Aug 13, 2019 23:25:42 GMT 1
For the reasons stated it probably was a time when an experienced manager would have been the right choice.
The fact weve gone for such an inexperienced one seems to have made an awkward situation a whole lot worse.
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Post by Syran on Aug 13, 2019 23:26:14 GMT 1
Wagner inherited a broken team.
Powell had sucked all the life out of it.
Players refusing to travel to away games, Ishmael Miller up front, publicly stating that we could never compete with the mighty derby county.
He transformed the club in a matter of weeks.
This guy has had months and a transfer window to coach his methods and I see nothing.
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Post by specialun on Aug 13, 2019 23:29:59 GMT 1
Purely for debate purposes was the town job post Wagner a poisoned chalice? Jan has inherited a team devoid of all confidence that were already dead and gone. Several players speaking publicly about leaving and no doubt unrest in the camp. He had a chairman that knew he was stepping down. There’s clearly been no funds available during the summer despite two years in the premier league, parachute payments and taking in sizeable transfer fees. Lost Aaron mooy on deadline day. There’s also probably a fair amount of players that also don’t want to be here. The club is clearly in a mess. Would anyone have succeeded? Think all that is true but not sure its an excuse for the confused shambles hes made of the job since he got it. He seems to have waltzed into the dressing room, got everyones back up straight away, had nothing whatsoever to back himself up with in terms of his own achievements, and organised a confused system of playing that doesn;t work. A year ago we were very unluckily losing to Liverpool and spurs thanks to some terrible reffing and sheer bad luck. 12 months on our young keeper is stopping us being hammered at home to Lincoln city in one of the most disjointed, crappest performances weve had for many a year. Gk - Debut home grown, played league 2 last season Rb - Signed from German 4th-8th tier Cb - Premier league / championship 4th choice centre half Cb - Debut home grown, played on loan at Brighouse last season Lb - couldn’t break into league 2 team on loan last season Cm - 10 good games premier league at end of last season, thinks he’s Edgar davids Cm - loan, 1 season championship level in bottom team Cm - signed from league 2 Fwd - proven championship, didn’t cut it Premier league Fwd - signed from conference Fwd - Mbenza We were playing a well drilled team who have been promoted, clear identity and added to what they had over the summer. We had a mix of a few players who have played this level / above, signings from league 2 & below, young players on debut for us Half our team were at or below Lincoln’s level last season |
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Post by Captainslapper on Aug 13, 2019 23:30:39 GMT 1
It’s been a weird 8-9 months. Siewert seemed low key for a premier league club. Hardly spending in January - I agreed with, as we were down. But assumed we’d have more of a go in the summer. If Siewert does go shortly then we’ve totally wasted summer and pre-season. Yet I still maintain Mounié doesn’t get sent off vs Brighton (for nothing) and our up turn in form, that we’d have gone in to January in a much better position, strengthened, kept Wagner at least until the summer and been in with a shout of staying up. Despite results I still felt we looked much better/more competitive early last season than we did for most of our first season. It wasn't nothing though. He went into their player with a knee high challenge. Half heartedly put his foot straight into their man. He might have made a meal of it, but that was just the sort of lazy challenge that players tend to get sent off for. Most refs would have sent him off for that IMO |
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Aug 13, 2019 23:34:12 GMT 1
Several players obviously fell out with Siewert early on and have been castigated by the fans for it, but we are only guessing as to the reasons for the fall out. Would these same players (and others) have performed so badly had the club appointed a more experienced/successful manager? I can't think that there'd have been so much unrest/lack of respect had the likes of Warnock/Allardyce/Jokanović been appointed. I'm not saying that any of these would ever have been in the frame or would have been successful, but if Town learn one thing from this then surely it will be that we must go for an experienced manager next time, be that British or foreign.
We got lucky with the rookie Wagner but as they say, lightening rarely strikes twice.
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Post by Captainslapper on Aug 13, 2019 23:37:15 GMT 1
Think all that is true but not sure its an excuse for the confused shambles hes made of the job since he got it. He seems to have waltzed into the dressing room, got everyones back up straight away, had nothing whatsoever to back himself up with in terms of his own achievements, and organised a confused system of playing that doesn;t work. A year ago we were very unluckily losing to Liverpool and spurs thanks to some terrible reffing and sheer bad luck. 12 months on our young keeper is stopping us being hammered at home to Lincoln city in one of the most disjointed, crappest performances weve had for many a year. Gk - Debut home grown, played league 2 last season Rb - Signed from German 4th-8th tier Cb - Premier league / championship 4th choice centre half Cb - Debut home grown, played on loan at Brighouse last season Lb - couldn’t break into league 2 team on loan last season Cm - 10 good games premier league at end of last season, thinks he’s Edgar davids Cm - loan, 1 season championship level in bottom team Cm - signed from league 2 Fwd - proven championship, didn’t cut it Premier league Fwd - signed from conference Fwd - Mbenza We were playing a well drilled team who have been promoted, clear identity and added to what they had over the summer. We had a mix of a few players who have played this level / above, signings from league 2 & below, young players on debut for us Half our team were at or below Lincoln’s level last season When i saw the team i thought we'd lose. Lincoln are a good side and organised. that said, most of our side were players Lincoln couldn;t begin to afford if they wanted them. We looked unorganised,, confused and disjointed. Add unmotivated to that too. Huff and puff football at best. Swap the managers over tonight, then I reckon Town would win comfortably. |
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Post by TerrierSince89 on Aug 13, 2019 23:45:30 GMT 1
It’s been a weird 8-9 months. Siewert seemed low key for a premier league club. Hardly spending in January - I agreed with, as we were down. But assumed we’d have more of a go in the summer. If Siewert does go shortly then we’ve totally wasted summer and pre-season. Yet I still maintain Mounié doesn’t get sent off vs Brighton (for nothing) and our up turn in form, that we’d have gone in to January in a much better position, strengthened, kept Wagner at least until the summer and been in with a shout of staying up. Despite results I still felt we looked much better/more competitive early last season than we did for most of our first season. It wasn't nothing though. He went into their player with a knee high challenge. Half heartedly put his foot straight into their man. He might have made a meal of it, but that was just the sort of lazy challenge that players tend to get sent off for. Most refs would have sent him off for that IMO It was mid shin at best but nowhere seen knee high and if that exact same challenge happened for a more established club it isn’t a red and we saw examples of that time and time again last season after Mounie’s red. Not saying it wasn’t stupid but it wasn’t a stone wall red every day of the week challenge by any means |
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Post by willo on Aug 13, 2019 23:46:50 GMT 1
Purely for debate purposes was the town job post Wagner a poisoned chalice? Jan has inherited a team devoid of all confidence that were already dead and gone. Several players speaking publicly about leaving and no doubt unrest in the camp. He had a chairman that knew he was stepping down. There’s clearly been no funds available during the summer despite two years in the premier league, parachute payments and taking in sizeable transfer fees. Lost Aaron mooy on deadline day. There’s also probably a fair amount of players that also don’t want to be here. The club is clearly in a mess. Would anyone have succeeded? If we’d appointed somebody with experience, someone with a past managerial record of success, someone the players would have respect for, someone who would have attracted better players to the club, we’d at least have given ourselves a chance. I could be flippant and say that would have cost us some money! To appoint the rookie we did was a big risk which hasn’t paid off. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Aug 13, 2019 23:50:32 GMT 1
You might be right about more established teams, but knee high or slightly lower, it was just the sort of over the ball challenge that usually gets you a red. I don;t think it was a reffing error ( and we had loads almost every game at the time ). IMO it was a mistake by Mounie that he didn;t need to do, and proved extremely costly. Not far below knee as this shot shows- www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46433020 |
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k1man999
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by k1man999 on Aug 13, 2019 23:51:07 GMT 1
Gk - Debut home grown, played league 2 last season Rb - Signed from German 4th-8th tier Cb - Premier league / championship 4th choice centre half Cb - Debut home grown, played on loan at Brighouse last season Lb - couldn’t break into league 2 team on loan last season Cm - 10 good games premier league at end of last season, thinks he’s Edgar davids Cm - loan, 1 season championship level in bottom team Cm - signed from league 2 Fwd - proven championship, didn’t cut it Premier league Fwd - signed from conference Fwd - Mbenza We were playing a well drilled team who have been promoted, clear identity and added to what they had over the summer. We had a mix of a few players who have played this level / above, signings from league 2 & below, young players on debut for us Half our team were at or below Lincoln’s level last season When i saw the team i thought we'd lose. Lincoln are a good side and organised. that said, most of our side were players Lincoln couldn;t begin to afford if they wanted them. We looked unorganised,, confused and disjointed. Add unmotivated to that too. Huff and puff football at best. Swap the managers over tonight, then I reckon Town would win comfortably. Exactly this. I tried to debate this with someone after the game, it wasn't about personal (although some I wouldn't pay in washers) it's about organisation tactics, plan cohesion style, graft. we looked bereft of any ideas. The players may have lacked the quality but you should at least see the above. |
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deadleg
David Wagner Terrier
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Post by deadleg on Aug 13, 2019 23:56:21 GMT 1
A lot of that is why I was mystified he was appointed at the time if he genuinely was the guy we wanted long-term. I didn't think there was any way he'd be able to arrest such awful momentum going into the new season with his honeymoon period long since worn out and a win percentage that would be impossible to claw back into something that looked vaguely respectable.
It's been even worse than I expected to be honest but I do feel sorry for him because he's had zero backing as well.
The only possible explanation I can see is that we knew this window would be awful and we'd need someone to take the fall for it but I have a really hard time imagining the club being that hard-nosed and cynical.
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Post by willo on Aug 13, 2019 23:59:16 GMT 1
Gk - Debut home grown, played league 2 last season Rb - Signed from German 4th-8th tier Cb - Premier league / championship 4th choice centre half Cb - Debut home grown, played on loan at Brighouse last season Lb - couldn’t break into league 2 team on loan last season Cm - 10 good games premier league at end of last season, thinks he’s Edgar davids Cm - loan, 1 season championship level in bottom team Cm - signed from league 2 Fwd - proven championship, didn’t cut it Premier league Fwd - signed from conference Fwd - Mbenza We were playing a well drilled team who have been promoted, clear identity and added to what they had over the summer. We had a mix of a few players who have played this level / above, signings from league 2 & below, young players on debut for us Half our team were at or below Lincoln’s level last season When i saw the team i thought we'd lose. Lincoln are a good side and organised. that said, most of our side were players Lincoln couldn;t begin to afford if they wanted them. We looked unorganised,, confused and disjointed. Add unmotivated to that too. Huff and puff football at best. Swap the managers over tonight, then I reckon Town would win comfortably. Can’t speak for tonight’s team but our usual first 11 is decent, just the wrong guy mobilising them. |
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Post by dugnet on Aug 14, 2019 0:22:24 GMT 1
There is some mitigation but I cannot defend naive tactics and the apparent lack of ability to coach and motivate.
Tonight was utterly clueless, players miles away from each other, no pace , no support and far too few opportunities.
The basics aren't there and that is a minimum. With the basics, which Lincoln had, we'd have given them a game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 5:21:32 GMT 1
If we sack him after a few years it means he fucked up. Sack him after a few months and it means the board fucked up. As the board are in hiding (apart from SJ who was put up to defend them last week) I can’t see any of them breaking cover and being proactive.
Far easier to use JS as a human shield whilst we move on all our players of value. No doubt we will then sack him, pin our demise at his feet and plod on in the lower reaches under the usual characters from the carousel.
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Post by froggyterrier on Aug 14, 2019 8:19:03 GMT 1
No.
We were fucked by January and everyone knew it. That was, unfortunately, down to;
- Wagner playing far too defensively up to then.
- Awful summer recruitment.
- Not playing a system to get the new faces in the side.
- Getting rid of the players we had who forced the opposition onto the back foot the previous season.
- Getting rid of our dressing room talisman.
- Uncertainty throughout the club stemming from Hoyle's situation.
It was an utter shitshow. A complete and total cock up from wall to wall. Which actually makes any new manager's job simple.
"Clean slate. 4-4-2. Play for your pride lads. So in 20 years when you look back on your career and think of this incredibly difficult time, you can know you gave your all for your team and your team mates. Results don't matter from here on out, it's about making sure the memories we all keep from this season are of us all fighting our hardest and sticking together."
Simple instructions. Clear message. No pressure. Then whatever happened would have been secondary to the new goal set. We would have achieved THAT goal, and been able to focus on that success over summer.
Any manager worth his salt in any field should know that when things go badly, irreparablly wrong, it's about getting the team you have to focus on pulling together and taking pride in their efforts to get the situation sorted. Giving them a reason to care and to try when everything's a mess and they're all looking to blame others and not be blamed themselves.
So no, it wasn't a poisoned chalice. Jan and the board just missed the most important focus they had to achieve.
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Post by runner76 on Aug 14, 2019 8:22:50 GMT 1
If we sack him after a few years it means he fucked up. Sack him after a few months and it means the board fucked up. As the board are in hiding (apart from SJ who was put up to defend them last week) I can’t see any of them breaking cover and being proactive. Far easier to use JS as a human shield whilst we move on all our players of value. No doubt we will then sack him, pin our demise at his feet and plod on in the lower reaches under the usual characters from the carousel. This is the time for PH to step up. Sack half the board who are to blame for the shit storm and also the management team who don’t seem fit for purpose......will he do it, a few games into his new position??? Tough call!!!! |
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Post by kennyk2 on Aug 14, 2019 8:30:17 GMT 1
It’s been a weird 8-9 months. Siewert seemed low key for a premier league club. Hardly spending in January - I agreed with, as we were down. But assumed we’d have more of a go in the summer. If Siewert does go shortly then we’ve totally wasted summer and pre-season. Yet I still maintain Mounié doesn’t get sent off vs Brighton (for nothing) and our up turn in form, that we’d have gone in to January in a much better position, strengthened, kept Wagner at least until the summer and been in with a shout of staying up. Despite results I still felt we looked much better/more competitive early last season than we did for most of our first season. Yep! The Mounie sending off was the catalyst. Lady Luck getting her own back. |
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Aug 14, 2019 8:46:47 GMT 1
He's just not good enough. Whoever headhunted him did so on a failed premise. Lightning does not strike twice. We should have shifted our focus on staying in the premier league instead of the well tried and failed spend nowt (lack of ambition or club security?).
What next? Will we be headhunting our next manager in the Under 11's because we were unlucky with Siewert? The guy is not good enough or not savvy enough. The record since he took over clearly states this. He had players when he took over but has failed to organise them into a cohesive team. Some of them have now gone.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Aug 14, 2019 8:49:36 GMT 1
You might be right about more established teams, but knee high or slightly lower, it was just the sort of over the ball challenge that usually gets you a red. I don;t think it was a reffing error ( and we had loads almost every game at the time ). IMO it was a mistake by Mounie that he didn;t need to do, and proved extremely costly. Not far below knee as this shot shows- www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46433020I think it was a yellow and a last warning. Mounie tried to pull out of the tackle, albeit too late. I wonder if he'd carried on the fall by the Brighton lad might have been less theatrical. If it had been Vincent Kompany in a role reversed challenge he'd have been booked. There's an unconscious bias in the PL nowadays, possibly due to the corporate nature of how it's run. Oliver also turned down a more than decent penalty shout as well. Mooy injured not long afterwards and we crumbled. As Ted says, remarkable how fine the margins are. There's always a catalyst for any stark change in something, but Mounie and Mooy were so visibly pivotal in our downturn. The club & fans need to turn this around sharpish, otherwise it will become a self fulfilling prophecy. |
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iangreaves
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Post by iangreaves on Aug 14, 2019 8:50:15 GMT 1
I don’t see how Siewert can stay but the problem is wider than Siewert. I simply don’t believe he has been responsible for transfer business, which has not been good. We have just appointed a director of football - after the window, which still seems odd to me. If we are recruiting a new manager, would they be happy working to a director of football? Would they have any say in recruitment and, if not, would they be happy with that?
The whole thing looks a mess. In the short term I would probably put someone like Whitehead in charge of the team to try to stabilise things. At least he should have the respect of the players. Long term, I don’t know. It seems there is something wrong with the club above the team manager’s pay grade.
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Aug 14, 2019 9:24:29 GMT 1
I'm with froggy on this.
I said at the time that he had a 6 month preseason (including 15 games against quality opposition who had something to play for) to prepare for the 19/20 season and that we'd see the fruits of his labours around now. Well, that's what we're seeing.
And I'm sorry, but I don't blame the board for this at all. A League 1 budget? Nah, that's bollocks. Sure, the fees paid this summer are consistent with our pre-premier league days but we've kept hold of the majority of our big stars. How many Lg1 clubs have a £17m left back? The squad we put out against QPR, we didn't get much change out of £50m. I think we have every right to expect better.
How many clubs in the championship would not be improved by the addition of Grant? Hogg? Schindler? Pritchard? Kongolo? Those are top, top class players for this level.
Lost Mooy? It was always on the cards, but after the departures of Billing & Williams (the latter being released without replacement was a baffling decision), we have only Hogg and a few "ones for the future" in midfield. Loewe wasn't lost on deadline day, he went very early and we still haven't replaced him.
Above all though, we should still be able to put out a decent side & on paper that's what we are putting out, but they look bewildered, with no faith in their own ability.
Last season it was just preparation for this season.
Against Derby, we were just undone by a couple of lapses in concentration (actually, a few, but we got away with most of them) and some piss poor finishing.
Against QPR, well, anyone can have an off day.
Lincoln was just the cup, so we're not bothered.
What will the excuse be on Friday evening after Fulham? Or against Cardiff? Or Reading, Or Luton? At what stage do we say, "you know what Jan, it's not working - thanks for your efforts but it's time to part ways".
I bear Jan Siewert no ill will. There is no animosity towards him personally. I don't doubt he's doing his level best to make this job a success but if any progress has been made, any shoots of optimism during his tenure then I must have missed them. I said I'd give him 6 games into this season. The first 3 have gone worse than I expected & I see little reason to suggest that the next 3 will be any better.
Would anyone have succeeded? In keeping us up last season? Probably not. In giving us genuine reason for optimism for this season? Absolutely, and I am convinced that somebody still can.
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Post by Uddersfield on Aug 14, 2019 9:31:23 GMT 1
Wagner inherited a broken team. Powell had sucked all the life out of it. Players refusing to travel to away games, Ishmael Miller up front, publicly stating that we could never compete with the mighty derby county. He transformed the club in a matter of weeks. This guy has had months and a transfer window to coach his methods and I see nothing. Spot on! |
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