deadleg
David Wagner Terrier
Posts: 2,897
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Post by deadleg on Sept 1, 2019 12:29:03 GMT 1
The problems we currently face were created long before DH was ill. He was right to step away for himself and his family . The decisions taken don't make him a bad guy at all but they are still poor decisions. Agreed and it's fair to question them respectfully. I think Dean's leadership on the 'non-football' side of things has been absolutely beyond reproach. He's done wonderful things for the club, area and community and fully deserves all the plaudits he gets for them. I don't want that to come off as a secondary concern because it's not. It means a lot. On the football side of things I've had my doubts, as I've posted before. I think he's had a tendency to go with people who he likes or 'gets a good feeling from' and I'm not sure that's always lead to the best results. It makes it difficult to judge performance effectively if you're willing someone to succeed because they're your mate and, as far as some of the managers go, I think he's admitted that he's kept some of them on too long I assume somewhat for that reason. People often point to the continued progress, which is fine, but it hardly means that every decision taken was close to optimal for the circumstances. Dean himself said when Wagner came in that he wanted us to overperform for a change rather than underperform and was ready to walk away if it failed again which heavily implies he didn't think the progress was as good as it should've been. Take getting out of League 1, alright we did technically progress year on year but it still took longer than it should've given the investment and in the end we had the Ched Evans business and a freak shootout to thank for getting over the line. It's the same thing with the board, backroom staff etc. Having good, nice people around is a noble goal but if the place falls apart the minute you step away and the people you've put in place over the last decade comprehensively fail to step up I'm afraid that has to go down as a failure of leadership. The thing that's always bugged me is our habit of underestimating the competition/overestimating ourselves. We notably seem to do this every time we change divisions, having previously admitted to being surprised by both the standard of the Championship and the Premier League. It's mind-boggling to me. By now you'd think we'd have learned and had people with better judgement having a say but instead we have the chairmen doing the DoF's job on top of their own and they figured we'd be fine not freshening up a squad populated by players who want out and/or have had all their confidence systematically dismantled over the past 18 months. It's incredible really. |
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Sept 1, 2019 12:36:42 GMT 1
It’s reported that we lost £20m in the promotion season
And it’s reported we made £20m to £30m in the first PL season
So I don’t feel there’s a massive black hole in where that profit went
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 12:47:49 GMT 1
There is a HUGE black hole
1st season EPL - 20m PROFIT
2nd season EPL - Would be **yet more profit** as we sold Ince/Malone/Lolley/Heff for 18m and only spent 25?
3rd season EFL - 45m in Parachute payments + 5m in TV money + 25m net in transfer moneys!!!!
We are talking nearly 300M INCOME over 2.5 years and we literally don't have a pot to piss IN!!!!
WHERE IS THE MONEY DEAN AND POTLESS?? NEARLY THREE HUNDRED MILLION POUNDS DOESN'T VANISH
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Post by galpharm2400 on Sept 1, 2019 13:06:21 GMT 1
DH probably had 10yrs of stress, culminating in a pretty serious illness. Can't get my head round why people can't at least try and put themselves in that position at his age. I always got the impression that he felt he was more a custodian than an owner. I've had a serious illness 3 times in my adult life but at no point did I let my life fall apart due to the fact of illness, simple as that. I still took care of what I needed to take care off to keep my life on track and all my commitments met. If you had a number of highly paid and contractually secure persons not giving a shit about you or your illness and undermining you to forward their interests at every turn it might have proved more challenging? The players have let down 3 managers, 2 Chairmen and the support, they are the common denominator. |
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Post by dugnet on Sept 1, 2019 13:08:47 GMT 1
There is a HUGE black hole 1st season EPL - 20m PROFIT2nd season EPL - Would be ** yet more profit** as we sold Ince/Malone/Lolley/Heff for 18m and only spent 25? 3rd season EFL - 45m in Parachute payments + 5m in TV money + 25m net in transfer moneys!!!! We are talking nearly 300M INCOME over 2.5 years and we literally don't have a pot to piss IN!!!! WHERE IS THE MONEY DEAN AND POTLESS?? NEARLY THREE HUNDRED MILLION POUNDS DOESN'T VANISHI don't think these numbers are absolutely accurate, however what caused this confusion was PHs comment that the Premier League money had gone. We used to have complete transparency , we knew DH put money in to support the club. I think to most casual observers the news he put a further 15m in the 1st Premier League season was a shock, although there were probably very good reasons why. We knew that if it wasn't for DH before we would have no chance of better players etc, we also had a clear value on how much this had cost him. Now that position is not at all clear. I don't understand why we can't have the same clarity? |
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Post by dugnet on Sept 1, 2019 13:09:50 GMT 1
I've had a serious illness 3 times in my adult life but at no point did I let my life fall apart due to the fact of illness, simple as that. I still took care of what I needed to take care off to keep my life on track and all my commitments met. If you had a number of highly paid and contractually secure persons not giving a shit about you or your illness and undermining you to forward their interests at every turn it might have proved more challenging? The players have let down 3 managers, 2 Chairmen and the support, they are the common denominator. And who selected these players? Your argument is far too simplistic. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 13:15:05 GMT 1
There is a HUGE black hole 1st season EPL - 20m PROFIT2nd season EPL - Would be ** yet more profit** as we sold Ince/Malone/Lolley/Heff for 18m and only spent 25? 3rd season EFL - 45m in Parachute payments + 5m in TV money + 25m net in transfer moneys!!!! We are talking nearly 300M INCOME over 2.5 years and we literally don't have a pot to piss IN!!!! WHERE IS THE MONEY DEAN AND POTLESS?? NEARLY THREE HUNDRED MILLION POUNDS DOESN'T VANISH, however what caused this confusion was PHs comment that the Premier League money had gone. We used to have complete transparency , we knew DH put money in to support the club. I think to most casual observers the news he put a further 15m in the 1st Premier League season was a shock, although there were probably very good reasons why. We knew that if it wasn't for DH before we would have no chance of better players etc, we also had a clear value on how much this had cost him. Now that position is not at all clear. I don't understand why we can't have the same clarity? They're prettly close.. EPL guarantees 100m per year... parachute payment is bguaranteed 45m for season 1.... we know we got 18m+ for sales last year... we know we got 25m for our sales this year.. I don't see how more people have clocked these very, very clear numbers and worked back from there.. How can there be NO money? We don't even have a spine of EPL wage players; Hogg, Schindler, Pritchard, flo and Mounie are the only ones left on the books and they would've got new deals on the basis of a relegation clause! There is ZERO justification for where the funds have gone; IT DOESN'T STACK UP |
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Post by Oblong of Dreams on Sept 1, 2019 13:15:33 GMT 1
Has it occurred to anyone that saying "all the money's gone" stops clubs from artificially inflating their asking price for players (and agents demanding crazy wages for their client players), or more fittingly atm, managers/head coaches?
Surely we should know that a Yorkshireman and his brass are not easily parted.
Tbh I'm just desperate to find a silver lining somewhere...
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Post by dugnet on Sept 1, 2019 13:17:29 GMT 1
Has it occurred to anyone that saying "all the money's gone" stops clubs from artificially inflating their asking price for players (and agents demanding crazy wages for their client players), or more fittingly atm, managers/head coaches? Surely we should know that a Yorkshireman and his brass are not easily parted. Tbh I'm just desperate to find a silver lining somewhere... It's a straw to clutch at but if a bunch of fans don't believe people who run clubs won't and have a good idea what the exact position is. |
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aca00js
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Posts: 1,984
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Post by aca00js on Sept 1, 2019 13:20:10 GMT 1
Has it occurred to anyone that saying "all the money's gone" stops clubs from artificially inflating their asking price for players (and agents demanding crazy wages for their client players), or more fittingly atm, managers/head coaches? Surely we should know that a Yorkshireman and his brass are not easily parted. Tbh I'm just desperate to find a silver lining somewhere... That would be ok if we actually had signed some decent Championship standard players |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 13:20:29 GMT 1
I’m perplexed as to why he kept 25%. If he wanted shot, get shot. If he wanted a say in how it was run, keep 50% and have a proper say or appoint a chairman to run things on his behalf (a la Bruce Buck at Chelsea). It felt a bit middling/hedging bets from the day it was announced. It keeps DH in limbo and, I’m sure, feeling a sense of duty and responsibility when it may have been better for all to have a clean break.
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Post by BoltonTerrier on Sept 1, 2019 13:21:20 GMT 1
There is a HUGE black hole 1st season EPL - 20m PROFIT2nd season EPL - Would be ** yet more profit** as we sold Ince/Malone/Lolley/Heff for 18m and only spent 25? 3rd season EFL - 45m in Parachute payments + 5m in TV money + 25m net in transfer moneys!!!! We are talking nearly 300M INCOME over 2.5 years and we literally don't have a pot to piss IN!!!! WHERE IS THE MONEY DEAN AND POTLESS?? NEARLY THREE HUNDRED MILLION POUNDS DOESN'T VANISHI don't think these numbers are absolutely accurate, however what caused this confusion was PHs comment that the Premier League money had gone. We used to have complete transparency , we knew DH put money in to support the club. I think to most casual observers the news he put a further 15m in the 1st Premier League season was a shock, although there were probably very good reasons why. We knew that if it wasn't for DH before we would have no chance of better players etc, we also had a clear value on how much this had cost him. Now that position is not at all clear. I don't understand why we can't have the same clarity? As i posted in another thread. All these numbers are readily available... We made £30m profit in the first season in the Premier and the tv money is more than 100m |
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Post by boooothy on Sept 1, 2019 13:21:30 GMT 1
Has it occurred to anyone that saying "all the money's gone" stops clubs from artificially inflating their asking price for players (and agents demanding crazy wages for their client players), or more fittingly atm, managers/head coaches? Surely we should know that a Yorkshireman and his brass are not easily parted. Tbh I'm just desperate to find a silver lining somewhere... Transfer window is shut now, we can stop pretending we’re poor |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Sept 1, 2019 13:30:03 GMT 1
If you had a number of highly paid and contractually secure persons not giving a shit about you or your illness and undermining you to forward their interests at every turn it might have proved more challenging? The players have let down 3 managers, 2 Chairmen and the support, they are the common denominator. And who selected these players? Your argument is far too simplistic. The games are played on grass between 11 men on 2 teams, ours are very well paid and are letting their wage slips down to some tune. The past, even recent past of boardroom decisions etc does not allow that fact to escape? The fact that nobody wanted what we would all have considered to be our better players in the summer tells you more about them than the board. Or are we now in further hindsight saying we always thought they were a bit shit? The 'cull' never happened and the bruised egos remain and it's gonna take a while. UTT |
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Post by woodyterrier29 on Sept 1, 2019 13:32:07 GMT 1
I don't think these numbers are absolutely accurate, however what caused this confusion was PHs comment that the Premier League money had gone. We used to have complete transparency , we knew DH put money in to support the club. I think to most casual observers the news he put a further 15m in the 1st Premier League season was a shock, although there were probably very good reasons why. We knew that if it wasn't for DH before we would have no chance of better players etc, we also had a clear value on how much this had cost him. Now that position is not at all clear. I don't understand why we can't have the same clarity? As i posted in another thread. All these numbers are readily available... We made £30m profit in the first season in the Premier and the tv money is more than 100m Everyone just unfortunately ignores this Bolton |
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Post by terrier2019 on Sept 1, 2019 13:35:18 GMT 1
There is a HUGE black hole 1st season EPL - 20m PROFIT2nd season EPL - Would be ** yet more profit** as we sold Ince/Malone/Lolley/Heff for 18m and only spent 25? 3rd season EFL - 45m in Parachute payments + 5m in TV money + 25m net in transfer moneys!!!! We are talking nearly 300M INCOME over 2.5 years and we literally don't have a pot to piss IN!!!! WHERE IS THE MONEY DEAN AND POTLESS?? NEARLY THREE HUNDRED MILLION POUNDS DOESN'T VANISHI don't think these numbers are absolutely accurate, however what caused this confusion was PHs comment that the Premier League money had gone. We used to have complete transparency , we knew DH put money in to support the club. I think to most casual observers the news he put a further 15m in the 1st Premier League season was a shock, although there were probably very good reasons why. We knew that if it wasn't for DH before we would have no chance of better players etc, we also had a clear value on how much this had cost him. Now that position is not at all clear. I don't understand why we can't have the same clarity? perhaps there hiding something thats why!!!.👏🐑👏🐑👏🐑 |
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Post by htfcsince70 on Sept 1, 2019 14:25:33 GMT 1
Has it occurred to anyone that saying "all the money's gone" stops clubs from artificially inflating their asking price for players (and agents demanding crazy wages for their client players), or more fittingly atm, managers/head coaches? Surely we should know that a Yorkshireman and his brass are not easily parted. Tbh I'm just desperate to find a silver lining somewhere... Transfer window is shut now, we can stop pretending we’re poor But it will open again before we know it - albeit not soon enough! Makes no sense to tell others our financial status - players are expensive enough in January as it is. That said some of the players are an expensive (waste of money) in the summer - Mbenza and Diakahby spring to mind!! |
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Post by Headless Chicken on Sept 1, 2019 14:44:58 GMT 1
Well it's all nonsense isn't it. Dean still has 25% in the club, and Canalside as well as his emotional connection to Town. People making accusations and suggesting something sinister should behave themselves. No-one should assume that, but it seems fair game to be absolutely damning of PH. There's even people I have a lot of time for showing a fairly nasty and irrational side and acting as if the predicament we're in is all down to PH when it clearly isn't. No-one, or at least virtually no-one, knows enough to start allocating blame to specific people.......other than maybe recruitment 🤣 |
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Post by Headless Chicken on Sept 1, 2019 14:51:32 GMT 1
I don't think these numbers are absolutely accurate, however what caused this confusion was PHs comment that the Premier League money had gone. We used to have complete transparency , we knew DH put money in to support the club. I think to most casual observers the news he put a further 15m in the 1st Premier League season was a shock, although there were probably very good reasons why. We knew that if it wasn't for DH before we would have no chance of better players etc, we also had a clear value on how much this had cost him. Now that position is not at all clear. I don't understand why we can't have the same clarity? As i posted in another thread. All these numbers are readily available... We made £30m profit in the first season in the Premier and the tv money is more than 100m Adam, I can't tell if you're trying to suggest the TV revenue is on top of the profit? Noting I haven't looked, but surely the TV revenue is factored into the profit figure. |
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Post by BoltonTerrier on Sept 1, 2019 14:55:24 GMT 1
As i posted in another thread. All these numbers are readily available... We made £30m profit in the first season in the Premier and the tv money is more than 100m Adam, I can't tell if you're trying to suggest the TV revenue is on top of the profit? Noting I haven't looked, but surely the TV revenue is factored into the profit figure. No i wasnt sorry. The P&l is £30m taking everything into account. I was referring to the figures speculating earlier in the thread about profit made(£20m) and sky tv revenue of 100m(£110m) |
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Post by DuncanShearer on Sept 1, 2019 15:46:34 GMT 1
I’m not in the know by any stretch or an accountant but the only scenarios that stack up for me are
1) there is money, and it will be invested across the three transfer window transition discussed in the Q&A.
2) there is no money currently as the PL parachute and any residual cash in the bank is being used to pay DH for the PH’s 75% shareholding. This on the basis that future parachute payments and assets swell the clubs value, not a case of DH being paid back any loans, even though the sums involved may be similar. Parachute payments still to come in would then be legitimately the clubs money and therefore available.
3) a combination of the above.
The real unknown in all this is PHs capacity to support the club like DH did. But he is inheriting a much different situation, and if wise may not need to do this.
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Post by Spike24 on Sept 1, 2019 17:04:21 GMT 1
Well it's all nonsense isn't it. Dean still has 25% in the club, and Canalside as well as his emotional connection to Town. People making accusations and suggesting something sinister should behave themselves. Maybe, just maybe him having 25% still means he has transparency in the finances, and can guarantee he gets his money out. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 17:43:49 GMT 1
I wish people would realize that it would be no different if Hoyle still owned 100% of the club.
They have to get the wage bill down fast and that is what is happening. It is horrible to watch the team get torn apart but if we want to use the parachute payments for investment instead of paying over inflated contracts we have no choice but to get them out quick.
Just hope we can stay up while this happens.
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Sept 1, 2019 18:06:11 GMT 1
It's an interesting question isn't it? We all know that DH is a fan. He is however a fan with a unique insight into how the club finds itself in it's current predicament. For very good reasons he chose to step away as major shareholder. He must have had expectations of how things would work out ? Perhaps he genuinely thought things weren't too bad and would quickly stabilise in the Championship. The question is what might he be thinking now? I suspect he is probably positive that PH will turn it round, although I also wonder if he is now beginning to have doubts. It's important to remember he only has 25% say now, and 25% is in the grand scheme of things pretty worthless. I suspect most fans think either consciously or not that "it's ok, Dean will step in". I don't think that is likely to happen, more likely PH sells on than that...but he could only sell 75%. Who'd have thought we'd end up in such a mess so quickly? It is simple. We got relegated and it was time to move on. The club had been up for sale for some years. Dean became seriously ill and was not at the tiller in any way for almost 5 months. Family first. The consortiums interested were not seen as reliable or fit and proper and they did not match the valuations, Hodgkinson offered a better alternative thought Hoyle. How has he financed this is my main concern. A buy-out financed and paid for by future earnings is my guess. Not ideal in any way shape or form if the case. I speculate...but i reckon my hunch is correct. |
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Post by Wagner Uber Alles on Sept 1, 2019 19:31:53 GMT 1
Too much emotion flying around right now and some quite frankly embarrassing accusations towards DH and PH. we all need to step back and see what develops and although I understand questions need answering some of the posts about Dean AND phill arewithout substance and really disrespectfull. I’d go further and say some our downright libellous and with the target being the owner of a law firm it may get sticky for some of the loudmouths. |
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deo1
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by deo1 on Sept 1, 2019 20:21:14 GMT 1
Hopefully we’ve got a healthy bank balance and an owner with town at heart who’s bought us with his own money. Owning a football club is a hobby and you don’t go in it to make money so hopefully Hoyle hasn’t made millions out of town and Hodgkinson isn’t paying for the club through parachute payments but through his own funds.
If this is the case then I’m done with football and the greed and disloyalty it breeds in people.
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Post by Up the Duff. on Sept 1, 2019 21:54:57 GMT 1
It is often stated that transfer fees are paid over the duration of the contracts, so if we spent 50m in our first season in the premier league on transfers that was probably to be paid across two to 3 years. Then we sold some of them so haven't actually paid the full amount out... e.g. INCE.
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aca00js
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by aca00js on Sept 3, 2019 2:32:19 GMT 1
I wish people would realize that it would be no different if Hoyle still owned 100% of the club. They have to get the wage bill down fast and that is what is happening. It is horrible to watch the team get torn apart but if we want to use the parachute payments for investment instead of paying over inflated contracts we have no choice but to get them out quick. Just hope we can stay up while this happens. If that was the case why did Phil say we didn't have to sell? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 3:14:15 GMT 1
I wish people would realize that it would be no different if Hoyle still owned 100% of the club. They have to get the wage bill down fast and that is what is happening. It is horrible to watch the team get torn apart but if we want to use the parachute payments for investment instead of paying over inflated contracts we have no choice but to get them out quick. Just hope we can stay up while this happens. If that was the case why did Phil say we didn't have to sell? Technically we don’t have to sell. The parachute payments will cover the contractual obligations. But if we want parachute money to cover new signings instead we need to get the wages down. One way or another the wages will drop. If we do nothing they drop when contracts expire. |
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aca00js
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by aca00js on Sept 3, 2019 11:47:33 GMT 1
If that was the case why did Phil say we didn't have to sell? Technically we don’t have to sell. The parachute payments will cover the contractual obligations. But if we want parachute money to cover new signings instead we need to get the wages down. One way or another the wages will drop. If we do nothing they drop when contracts expire. I was being facetious as I fully know how parachute and wages work. But the point is we have sold yes but have we strengthened? I would say no and the squad is now lacking in many area and the fact that the money has gone makes no sense at all. All points to Phil having no money to invest. Everybody will point to other teams who have had to shed players but clubs like Bolton and Sunderland have over spent for many years, yet we was led to believe we was in a strong position but it appears we are in a worse place than before we went up. |
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