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Post by Stewpot on Jul 18, 2020 9:31:26 GMT 1
In the circumstances that you describe the deduction would be applied this season. Dang, got my understanding of the rules totally wrong! Cheers. I also thought if 12 points deducted put them in a relegation place at the season's end, it would be applied now and thus relegate them. If not, i.e. their status was safe, it would be the start of next season. Is this wrong, as it occurs to me those are the only 2 outcomes, so in what circumstances would the 12 point deduction be applied at the start of 2020/21?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 9:39:27 GMT 1
Dang, got my understanding of the rules totally wrong! Cheers. I also thought if 12 points deducted put them in a relegation place at the season's end, it would be applied now and thus relegate them. If not, i.e. their status was safe, it would be the start of next season. Is this wrong, as it occurs to me those are the only 2 outcomes, so in what circumstances would the 12 point deduction be applied at the start of 2020/21? If they finished in the relegation places without the deduction this season it would apply from the start of next. As this now can't happen, it'll be applied this season unless they successfully appeal it.
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Post by willo on Jul 18, 2020 10:39:45 GMT 1
Have to admit this is a story I haven’t been all over but can see it’s been dragging on for months & months & months for no apparent reason. If Wednesday, Wigan & Derby have done wrong, deduct them all the required number of points (12?) now and let the table show the points deduction. Never mind delaying it til next season or whatever, just get on with it. Can anyone advise why this hasn’t already been sorted?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 10:42:16 GMT 1
Have to admit this is a story I haven’t been all over but can see it’s been dragging on for months & months & months for no apparent reason. If Wednesday, Wigan & Derby have done wrong, deduct them all the required number of points (12?) now and let the table show the points deduction. Never mind delaying it til next season or whatever, just get on with it. Can anyone advise why this hasn’t already been sorted? No idea but the length of time its taking is an absolute farce.
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Post by bluestripe on Jul 18, 2020 10:51:21 GMT 1
Have to admit this is a story I haven’t been all over but can see it’s been dragging on for months & months & months for no apparent reason. If Wednesday, Wigan & Derby have done wrong, deduct them all the required number of points (12?) now and let the table show the points deduction. Never mind delaying it til next season or whatever, just get on with it. Can anyone advise why this hasn’t already been sorted? In Wigan's case, it is largely clearcut, because it is defined in the rules. With the other two, it appears that they have definitely broken the spirit of the rules, but not necessarily the letter of the "law", so interpretation is required which is open to appeal and debate. The EFL are in a difficult position, because whichever way they decide in a points deduction decision, they are likely to end up with a legal challenge that will create uncertainty ending the season with respect to relegation places or potential for liability claim from Wednesday or team in 21st place. That's how I see it anyway. Somebody else may have a different take on it.
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crux
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Post by crux on Jul 18, 2020 10:59:21 GMT 1
Have to admit this is a story I haven’t been all over but can see it’s been dragging on for months & months & months for no apparent reason. If Wednesday, Wigan & Derby have done wrong, deduct them all the required number of points (12?) now and let the table show the points deduction. Never mind delaying it til next season or whatever, just get on with it. Can anyone advise why this hasn’t already been sorted? In Wigan's case, it is largely clearcut, because it is defined in the rules. With the other two, it appears that they have definitely broken the spirit of the rules, but not necessarily the letter of the "law", so interpretation is required which is open to appeal and debate. The EFL are in a difficult position, because whichever way they decide in a points deduction decision, they are likely to end up with a legal challenge that will create uncertainty ending the season with respect to relegation places or potential for liability claim from Wednesday or team in 21st place. That's how I see it anyway. Somebody else may have a different take on it. The Derby case is the most difficult and more a "spirit of the law" one. They've allegedly got round FFP by selling the ground at an inflated price and written down the value of players at a more advantageous rate than anyone else in the league. Both of these of matters of opinion, but clearly done to make sure they meet FFP rules. Sheffield Wednesday appear to have sold the ground in one financial year, but entered it into the accounts in a different financial year to get round FFP rules. If proven it would give them two points deductions, one for breaking FFP rules and one for trying to get round FFP rules. They could also face charges of fraudulent accounting.
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Post by Made In Yorkshire on Jul 18, 2020 11:08:31 GMT 1
Whatever happens it's good to know that we're now just spectators watching on how this grubby episode plays out.
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Post by bluestripe on Jul 18, 2020 11:40:42 GMT 1
In Wigan's case, it is largely clearcut, because it is defined in the rules. With the other two, it appears that they have definitely broken the spirit of the rules, but not necessarily the letter of the "law", so interpretation is required which is open to appeal and debate. The EFL are in a difficult position, because whichever way they decide in a points deduction decision, they are likely to end up with a legal challenge that will create uncertainty ending the season with respect to relegation places or potential for liability claim from Wednesday or team in 21st place. That's how I see it anyway. Somebody else may have a different take on it. The Derby case is the most difficult and more a "spirit of the law" one. They've allegedly got round FFP by selling the ground at an inflated price and written down the value of players at a more advantageous rate than anyone else in the league. Both of these of matters of opinion, but clearly done to make sure they meet FFP rules. Sheffield Wednesday appear to have sold the ground in one financial year, but entered it into the accounts in a different financial year to get round FFP rules. If proven it would give them two points deductions, one for breaking FFP rules and one for trying to get round FFP rules. They could also face charges of fraudulent accounting. I think we have got to the crux of the matter. Thanks.😀
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Post by 66738 on Jul 18, 2020 11:41:28 GMT 1
In Wigan's case, it is largely clearcut, because it is defined in the rules. With the other two, it appears that they have definitely broken the spirit of the rules, but not necessarily the letter of the "law", so interpretation is required which is open to appeal and debate. The EFL are in a difficult position, because whichever way they decide in a points deduction decision, they are likely to end up with a legal challenge that will create uncertainty ending the season with respect to relegation places or potential for liability claim from Wednesday or team in 21st place. That's how I see it anyway. Somebody else may have a different take on it. The Derby case is the most difficult and more a "spirit of the law" one. They've allegedly got round FFP by selling the ground at an inflated price and written down the value of players at a more advantageous rate than anyone else in the league. Both of these of matters of opinion, but clearly done to make sure they meet FFP rules. Sheffield Wednesday appear to have sold the ground in one financial year, but entered it into the accounts in a different financial year to get round FFP rules. If proven it would give them two points deductions, one for breaking FFP rules and one for trying to get round FFP rules. They could also face charges of fraudulent accounting. Didn’t Chansarai (or however you spell it) also buy Hillsbrough for an inflated price?
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Wingman
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Post by Wingman on Jul 18, 2020 11:54:53 GMT 1
The length of time from charge (Nov) to now and still no outcome is disgraceful. This isn’t a high court case, so why the delays?
Quite rightly now, if deducted an amount of points that would relegate them, Wednesday would have reason to appeal. If they are punished with a deduction, it should’ve been done months ago. Same with Derby.
Any club going down can rightly feel aggrieved as the EFL have had nine months - a full season in time - to clear this case out.
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Post by bluesandtwos on Jul 18, 2020 12:17:47 GMT 1
The length of time from charge (Nov) to now and still no outcome is disgraceful. This isn’t a high court case, so why the delays? Quite rightly now, if deducted an amount of points that would relegate them, Wednesday would have reason to appeal. If they are punished with a deduction, it should’ve been done months ago. Same with Derby. Any club going down can rightly feel aggrieved as the EFL have had nine months - a full season in time - to clear this case out. They may get points deducted but at the start of next season. This would make it more 'fair' as they know what they are contending with for the full season, unlike now when they have no chance of managing the situation. Then again the EFL may, again, just bottle it.
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Wingman
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Post by Wingman on Jul 18, 2020 12:34:27 GMT 1
Well they could have known a possible outcome was a points deduction. If they’ve been that bad all season under Spunk and get relegated due to a deduction, who am I to complain or laugh consistently? Which I would.
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Post by bluestripe on Jul 18, 2020 12:38:47 GMT 1
The length of time from charge (Nov) to now and still no outcome is disgraceful. This isn’t a high court case, so why the delays? Quite rightly now, if deducted an amount of points that would relegate them, Wednesday would have reason to appeal. If they are punished with a deduction, it should’ve been done months ago. Same with Derby. Any club going down can rightly feel aggrieved as the EFL have had nine months - a full season in time - to clear this case out. They may get points deducted but at the start of next season. This would make it more 'fair' as they know what they are contending with for the full season, unlike now when they have no chance of managing the situation. Then again the EFL may, again, just bottle it. If we had finished 22nd, you would perhaps have a different opinion as to when the points deduction should take effect. But otherwise agree with what you say.
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Post by bluesandtwos on Jul 18, 2020 12:49:29 GMT 1
They may get points deducted but at the start of next season. This would make it more 'fair' as they know what they are contending with for the full season, unlike now when they have no chance of managing the situation. Then again the EFL may, again, just bottle it. If we had finished 22nd, you would perhaps have a different opinion as to when the points deduction should take effect. But otherwise agree with what you say. It's not when I think it should take place but when, if it does happen, I think it will. Personally I think the EFL will bottle it and just fine them. For me the whole FPP thing is a nonsense. If there has been wrongdoing why on earth does it take this long to make a decision. It's just so much fluff.
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Post by Larry David on Jul 18, 2020 18:50:25 GMT 1
Their fans are bricking it as they believe that they already know the result of the appeal and haven't announced it to the fans. Seriously worried over it.
Many are saying it's a significant deduction and monk let slip post match that their game on Wednesday is a must win despite being on 50 odd points and currently safe
I would laugh my tits off of this happens and something doesn't add up with this story does it?
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Post by softboy on Jul 18, 2020 19:59:36 GMT 1
As I understand it Birmingham were deducted 9 points last season for breaching FFP. Purely that, no other issues. The Wednesday case appears to relate to selling the Ground in one financial year and putting the sale through in a different financial year to get around FFS. If they are innocent then that's no points deduction, if they are guilty then surely the points deduction has to be significantly higher, as they would have not only breached FFS but also guilty of false accounting to HMRC?
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Post by stevvy on Jul 18, 2020 20:37:59 GMT 1
If true re the comment from Monk, that suggests probably a 9 point deduction (or certainly no more than 11, which would put them 3 points from safety with 3 available, eg must win as he said). We'll surely find out before Wednesday night.
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Post by Leporid on Jul 18, 2020 20:48:31 GMT 1
The Derby case is the most difficult and more a "spirit of the law" one. They've allegedly got round FFP by selling the ground at an inflated price and written down the value of players at a more advantageous rate than anyone else in the league. Both of these of matters of opinion, but clearly done to make sure they meet FFP rules. Sheffield Wednesday appear to have sold the ground in one financial year, but entered it into the accounts in a different financial year to get round FFP rules. If proven it would give them two points deductions, one for breaking FFP rules and one for trying to get round FFP rules. They could also face charges of fraudulent accounting. Didn’t Chansarai (or however you spell it) also buy Hillsbrough for an inflated price? Or Chancer, as he has been known...
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jul 18, 2020 20:48:45 GMT 1
Would make sense to always deduct in the close season. Everyone knows whats needed...the punishment get applied and legal representations can be done in this period. The 12 points always come off the following season. Not ideal but better than what we have.
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buckers
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Post by buckers on Jul 18, 2020 21:04:04 GMT 1
Going off twitter so it’s just rumours most of their fans reckon it’s a 12 point deduction. If true that would put them second bottom and relegated.
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Post by turbo2 on Jul 18, 2020 21:05:48 GMT 1
Going off twitter so it’s just rumours most of their fans reckon it’s a 12 point deduction. If true that would put them second bottom and relegated. Now that would be funny.
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Jul 18, 2020 21:14:22 GMT 1
Would make sense to always deduct in the close season. Everyone knows whats needed...the punishment get applied and legal representations can be done in this period. The 12 points always come off the following season. Not ideal but better than what we have. points should be deducted with immediate effect. no need for waiting at all.
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Post by tvor on Jul 18, 2020 21:44:31 GMT 1
Going off twitter so it’s just rumours most of their fans reckon it’s a 12 point deduction. If true that would put them second bottom and relegated. Now that would be funny. Imagine the field day that Pensitone Terrier will have with his Wednesday supporting mates. Can’t wait to hear all about the bantz.
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buckers
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Post by buckers on Jul 18, 2020 22:17:56 GMT 1
Somethings definitely afoot.
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Jul 18, 2020 22:40:10 GMT 1
I feel sorry for them in the same way I feel sorry for Shamima Begum.
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Post by yappledapple on Jul 18, 2020 22:45:45 GMT 1
Somethings definitely afoot. I put a small bet on their relegation months ago when this first broke - 33/1 😁
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Post by Bassingham Terrier on Jul 19, 2020 8:38:02 GMT 1
I'll tell you what I'd like...
12 point deduction with 9 suspended but to be imposed next season if they appeal against the ruling. They'd be obliged to accept it or begin next season on -9.
Sadly, it won't happen.
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Jul 19, 2020 8:47:18 GMT 1
why not demote them to the bottom tier of english football? many clubs in the lower league have found themselves almost banished from football for similar, and remember what happened to Rangers (which should also have happened to the skip dwellers)?
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Post by ilsonterrier on Jul 19, 2020 9:26:26 GMT 1
I guess the EFL are so scared of the legal threat from Chansri that they hoped to delay the announcement of any points deduction until they'd got enough points to make it irrelevant. Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on which way you look at it 😄) that hasn't happened and they are now left with this mess.
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Post by 66738 on Jul 19, 2020 10:38:47 GMT 1
Having a read into it, Chansiri bought Hillsbrough at a massively inflated price of £60 million. Compare that to the Madejski stadium sale price of £26.5 million and West Ham’s sale of Upton Park at £40m in prime London real estate land. Absolutely Laughable. That’s on top of Chansiri buying it in one financial year and putting on the accounts of another year. Throw the book at them. But do it next season.
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