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Post by Mastercracker on Jul 1, 2022 12:47:35 GMT 1
Sean Jarvis did a brilliant job driving that side of the business when he was here! I may be wrong here but my strong feeling is that commercial revenues weren't higher comparatively when Jarvis was in charge You aren't wrong. It was crap then compared to comparable clubs and seems its still crap now. |
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incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
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Post by incognito on Aug 7, 2022 17:08:15 GMT 1
A near 10 million deficit excluding player trading was the norm prior to promotion (people were just less interested in it back in those days) That was off the back of an £11-12 million wage bill. I'd guess we're not far above that this year. Ok so let’s say it’s about that at £15 million a year in wages plus travel costs £1mill. 600k rudoni £2 mill loan of Tino (can’t see it my self) plus a few extra bits and pieces. Your looking at £20 mill We then sell O’Brien and toff to receive 2.5mill a year plus still getting 2.5 mill for grant per year. You then have 2.5-3 mill in season tickets and 8 mill in tv money plus playoff money and a few extra TV games 1-2 mill Your looking at a loss of between 1-4 million no way we are losing £10 million unless that accounts for loans to dean but why pay it back to just borrow it again. That is for this year and it’s the first year without parachute payments. The £10 million deficit referenced here is the figure mentioned by Hoyle in his latest update. As he states, this would be the number "Without player trading". I posted the below Profit and Loss summary a few weeks ago, but updated it this morning to show the average of our 'normal' Championship financial parameters without the noise of the last few seasons. Essentially our player sales (£4.34m average) have always been used to partially offset a near £10 million operating loss (£9.93m average): Here's our P&L history for anyone interested:  Edit: Added indicative 'typical' Championship average I don't expect this season's finances to be hugely different from this average: turnover will be about £3 million higher due to improved TV deal & solidarity payments, but we are spending about £4 million more on G&A these days (mainly the costs of the transformed Canalside operation). We need to be careful to make the distinction between Profit and Loss and cash flow, most significantly as the accounting treatment of player transfers can look quite different to the real life flow of money (ie instalments). - When a club sells a player the full fee is recorded in the P&L as one hit at the point of sale: "Profit on Sale of Players' Registrations" = Total transfer fee minus remaining book value of player. - When clubs buy a player, the fee is usually amortised across the length of the contract on a straight line basis: eg if we've signed Rudoni for £800k on a four year contract, the Cost of Sales for the next four years will include £200k amortisation each year. The book value for this season's outgoing players will be minimal (around the £200k or so left of the original Pipa fee) so the likely eight figure profit on player sales should offset most of the operating loss and see us not a million miles away from breaking even when these accounts are published around March 2024. |
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King Curtis
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by King Curtis on Aug 7, 2022 18:00:25 GMT 1
Ok so let’s say it’s about that at £15 million a year in wages plus travel costs £1mill. 600k rudoni £2 mill loan of Tino (can’t see it my self) plus a few extra bits and pieces. Your looking at £20 mill We then sell O’Brien and toff to receive 2.5mill a year plus still getting 2.5 mill for grant per year. You then have 2.5-3 mill in season tickets and 8 mill in tv money plus playoff money and a few extra TV games 1-2 mill Your looking at a loss of between 1-4 million no way we are losing £10 million unless that accounts for loans to dean but why pay it back to just borrow it again. That is for this year and it’s the first year without parachute payments. The £10 million deficit referenced here is the figure mentioned by Hoyle in his latest update. As he states, this would be the number "Without player trading". I posted the below Profit and Loss summary a few weeks ago, but updated it this morning to show the average of our 'normal' Championship financial parameters without the noise of the last few seasons. Essentially our player sales (£4.34m average) have always been used to partially offset a near £10 million operating loss (£9.93m average): Here's our P&L history for anyone interested: Edit: Added indicative 'typical' Championship average I don't expect this season's finances to be hugely different from this average: turnover will be about £3 million higher due to improved TV deal & solidarity payments, but we are spending about £4 million more on G&A these days (mainly the costs of the transformed Canalside operation). We need to be careful to make the distinction between Profit and Loss and cash flow, most significantly as the accounting treatment of player transfers can look quite different to the real life flow of money (ie instalments). - When a club sells a player the full fee is recorded in the P&L as one hit at the point of sale: "Profit on Sale of Players' Registrations" = Total transfer fee minus remaining book value of player. - When clubs buy a player, the fee is usually amortised across the length of the contract on a straight line basis: eg if we've signed Rudoni for £800k on a four year contract, the Cost of Sales for the next four years will include £200k amortisation each year. The book value for this season's outgoing players will be minimal (around the £200k or so left of the original Pipa fee) so the likely eight figure profit on player sales should offset most of the operating loss and see us not a million miles away from breaking even when these accounts are published around March 2024. Thanks for bumping Incognito - that is the first time i've ever seen that data! How did you compile it? Certainly makes for interesting reading and I will dip back in when I've a bit more time. (Probs at work tomorrow  ) I am certainly no accountant but I am familiar with reading a P&L account and understand your point about player trading and it's different impacts on P&L vs Cashflow. I'm guessing you are an accountant in your day job? |
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incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,531
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Post by incognito on Aug 7, 2022 21:24:16 GMT 1
The £10 million deficit referenced here is the figure mentioned by Hoyle in his latest update. As he states, this would be the number "Without player trading". I posted the below Profit and Loss summary a few weeks ago, but updated it this morning to show the average of our 'normal' Championship financial parameters without the noise of the last few seasons. Essentially our player sales (£4.34m average) have always been used to partially offset a near £10 million operating loss (£9.93m average): I don't expect this season's finances to be hugely different from this average: turnover will be about £3 million higher due to improved TV deal & solidarity payments, but we are spending about £4 million more on G&A these days (mainly the costs of the transformed Canalside operation). We need to be careful to make the distinction between Profit and Loss and cash flow, most significantly as the accounting treatment of player transfers can look quite different to the real life flow of money (ie instalments). - When a club sells a player the full fee is recorded in the P&L as one hit at the point of sale: "Profit on Sale of Players' Registrations" = Total transfer fee minus remaining book value of player. - When clubs buy a player, the fee is usually amortised across the length of the contract on a straight line basis: eg if we've signed Rudoni for £800k on a four year contract, the Cost of Sales for the next four years will include £200k amortisation each year. The book value for this season's outgoing players will be minimal (around the £200k or so left of the original Pipa fee) so the likely eight figure profit on player sales should offset most of the operating loss and see us not a million miles away from breaking even when these accounts are published around March 2024. Thanks for bumping Incognito - that is the first time i've ever seen that data! How did you compile it? Certainly makes for interesting reading and I will dip back in when I've a bit more time. (Probs at work tomorrow ) I am certainly no accountant but I am familiar with reading a P&L account and understand your point about player trading and it's different impacts on P&L vs Cashflow. I'm guessing you are an accountant in your day job? No problem. It's just a summary of numbers pulled from the published accounts each year to help me get my head around what's gone on. Like you, I'm not an accountant but I do need to be able to interpret this sort of stuff in my professional life. |
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Aug 15, 2022 14:59:14 GMT 1
This might have been mentioned on the Hoyle Out thread but in case it hasn't, Pure Sports Consultancy's accounts were published on the 28th July and any doubt as to who owns/controls Town should be addressed under the heading "Post Balance Sheet Events" on page 5. As Dean Hoyle alluded to in his latest update, he effectively owns 100% of the football club subject to EFL & FCA approva,l but in the meantime he has full control of the club. find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/09680325/filing-history |
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Post by Junior & Onuora on Aug 15, 2022 15:29:25 GMT 1
This might have been mentioned on the Hoyle Out thread but in case it hasn't, Pure Sports Consultancy's accounts were published on the 28th July and any doubt as to who owns/controls Town should be addressed under the heading "Post Balance Sheet Events" on page 5. As Dean Hoyle alluded to in his latest update, he effectively owns 100% of the football club subject to EFL & FCA approva,l but in the meantime he has full control of the club. find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/09680325/filing-historyCan't be coincidence that the date the sale was agreed was May 30th - the day after the Play Off final. Presumably, Phil was holding out as he knew PL football would be financial salvation. |
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Post by canterburyterrier on Aug 15, 2022 16:19:11 GMT 1
This might have been mentioned on the Hoyle Out thread but in case it hasn't, Pure Sports Consultancy's accounts were published on the 28th July and any doubt as to who owns/controls Town should be addressed under the heading "Post Balance Sheet Events" on page 5. As Dean Hoyle alluded to in his latest update, he effectively owns 100% of the football club subject to EFL & FCA approva,l but in the meantime he has full control of the club. find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/09680325/filing-historyThe final paragraph on the report says that the cost of players wages will decrease as academy products move to the first team and the structure of the team is reshaped. It appears this was Phil's plan, perhaps agreed with Hoyle, but nonetheless Dean Hoyle just appears to be continuing to carry on the process. |
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Post by isobelle1992 on Aug 15, 2022 18:21:13 GMT 1
This might have been mentioned on the Hoyle Out thread but in case it hasn't, Pure Sports Consultancy's accounts were published on the 28th July and any doubt as to who owns/controls Town should be addressed under the heading "Post Balance Sheet Events" on page 5. As Dean Hoyle alluded to in his latest update, he effectively owns 100% of the football club subject to EFL & FCA approva,l but in the meantime he has full control of the club. find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/09680325/filing-historyThe final paragraph on the report says that the cost of players wages will decrease as academy products move to the first team and the structure of the team is reshaped. It appears this was Phil's plan, perhaps agreed with Hoyle, but nonetheless Dean Hoyle just appears to be continuing to carry on the process. A club funded by, and 1st team with many, academy and B team products would be something to be truly proud of as a supporter. |
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King Curtis
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Bacon is good for me
Posts: 4,856
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Post by King Curtis on Aug 15, 2022 18:34:40 GMT 1
The final paragraph on the report says that the cost of players wages will decrease as academy products move to the first team and the structure of the team is reshaped. It appears this was Phil's plan, perhaps agreed with Hoyle, but nonetheless Dean Hoyle just appears to be continuing to carry on the process. A club funded by, and 1st team with many, academy and B team products would be something to be truly proud of as a supporter. Only if it was successful on the pitch. Would you be proud of that model if we were playing in League 2? |
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Post by isobelle1992 on Aug 15, 2022 18:47:29 GMT 1
A club funded by, and 1st team with many, academy and B team products would be something to be truly proud of as a supporter. Only if it was successful on the pitch. Would you be proud of that model if we were playing in League 2? Well Jacko's Young Guns were what I was reminiscing about when I typed, so probably, especially if the football was entertaining. What about in the Championship or Premier League? |
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King Curtis
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Bacon is good for me
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Post by King Curtis on Aug 15, 2022 18:59:38 GMT 1
Only if it was successful on the pitch. Would you be proud of that model if we were playing in League 2? Well Jacko's Young Guns were what I was reminiscing about when I typed, so probably, especially if the football was entertaining. What about in the Championship or Premier League? Jacko's Young Gun's started the season with 8 registered players... If that's your ideal model and something to be proud of then I'd say that was extremely strange. |
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Post by isobelle1992 on Aug 15, 2022 19:12:33 GMT 1
Well Jacko's Young Guns were what I was reminiscing about when I typed, so probably, especially if the football was entertaining. What about in the Championship or Premier League? Jacko's Young Gun's started the season with 8 registered players... If that's your ideal model and something to be proud of then I'd say that was extremely strange. Why are you are being ridiculous? Surely it's where they end up, not where they start! |
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Post by Teddington Ted on Aug 15, 2022 19:16:03 GMT 1
Well Jacko's Young Guns were what I was reminiscing about when I typed, so probably, especially if the football was entertaining. What about in the Championship or Premier League? Jacko's Young Gun's started the season with 8 registered players... If that's your ideal model and something to be proud of then I'd say that was extremely strange. You did well to remember that, Jacko never mentions it! 😂 |
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King Curtis
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Bacon is good for me
Posts: 4,856
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Post by King Curtis on Aug 15, 2022 19:18:50 GMT 1
Jacko's Young Gun's started the season with 8 registered players... If that's your ideal model and something to be proud of then I'd say that was extremely strange. Why are you are being ridiculous? Surely it's where they end up, not where they start! I'm not being ridiculous - you are! Although I've heard a rumour your real name starts with an S, ends with an E & rhymes with peeve. Maybe you ought to consider Peeve as your next username. |
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Post by Teddington Ted on Aug 15, 2022 19:21:31 GMT 1
Why are you are being ridiculous? Surely it's where they end up, not where they start! I'm not being ridiculous - you are! Although I've heard a rumour your real name starts with an S, ends with an E & rhymes with peeve. Maybe you ought to consider Peeve as your next username. Jesus. That plank has been kicked out and come back pretending to be a woman more times than Mrs Doubtfire. |
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King Curtis
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Bacon is good for me
Posts: 4,856
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Post by King Curtis on Aug 15, 2022 19:25:32 GMT 1
Steve - Please come back as Mrs Doubtfire!!!
PLEASE
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Post by isobelle1992 on Aug 15, 2022 19:25:39 GMT 1
Why are you are being ridiculous? Surely it's where they end up, not where they start! I'm not being ridiculous - you are! Although I've heard a rumour your real name starts with an S, ends with an E & rhymes with peeve. Maybe you ought to consider Peeve as your next username. Basing the teams success on the alphabet & how many there are in the squad, i.e. before a ball is kicked, is surely the ridiculous thing to judge on. |
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incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,531
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Post by incognito on Jun 26, 2023 16:23:38 GMT 1
It looks like there is going to be an increase in financial discussion over the coming weeks. Hopefully a decent chunk of it can be contained in here rather than overwhelming other threads (as has happened in the past). Here's some material that shows why it's not necessarily helpful to frame our budget expectations in terms how we perceive ourselves to stack up against club X, Y, Z etc: Championship clubs’ finances are ‘broken’ |
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Post by royrace on Jun 26, 2023 17:19:29 GMT 1
Club is now debt free I assume, crowds are slightly above average and we have a good short term income from recent players sales I'd say. The stadium isn't owned so I guess we miss out on potential income there but in the grand scheme of things it's probably not a huge amount. Season tickets are cheap but again perhaps not massively significant.
The sad fact of the matter is all clubs need an owner willing to pump in money. If you can do that carefully and creatively I guess you can avoid FFP beaches.
Developing other income streams can help with that as can successful player trading.
All things considered I would expect our budget to be about average for the league. Hopefully the new ownership has some ambitious plans to increase revenue somehow which should help.
Clubs like Stoke have huge wealth behind them but can't spend it without breaching FFP. Player trading and the quality of coaching staff is key I guess, they have spent a fortune and achieved nothing, as have Bristol City.
Hopefully with an average budget for the league success is possible.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Jun 26, 2023 18:44:32 GMT 1
It looks like there is going to be an increase in financial discussion over the coming weeks. Hopefully a decent chunk of it can be contained in here rather than overwhelming other threads (as has happened in the past). Here's some material that shows why it's not necessarily helpful to frame our budget expectations in terms how we perceive ourselves to stack up against club X, Y, Z etc: Championship clubs’ finances are ‘broken’ Fulham. They should rename them, FFS Fulham. Those are eye watering losses. Thanks for sharing. |
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Post by softboy on Jun 26, 2023 23:34:30 GMT 1
So basically Fulham spent the best part of £70m to get back to PL where they now seem to be a solid mid table PL club. So essentially their business model is perfect and one which clubs with inspiration should follow. Well done Fulham I would say for getting things right.
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Post by twyford on Jun 27, 2023 1:32:41 GMT 1
So basically Fulham spent the best part of £70m to get back to PL where they now seem to be a solid mid table PL club. So essentially their business model is perfect and one which clubs with inspiration should follow. Well done Fulham I would say for getting things right. And Bristol City spent the best part of £43m and didn't get promoted. How much extra have Fulham had to spend to achieve that 'solid mid table PL' position? Most likely incurring significant additional losses which doesn't strike me as a perfect business model. Leicester City with their PL title and more recent further European qualification also show that the mid table position could well prove to be transitory. |
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Post by detox on Jun 27, 2023 8:53:02 GMT 1
It's unsustainable in its current form...but how can it be fixed?.. I've no idea really because wage caps won't happen, FFP isn't proactive enough, is too slow in gathering data and too slow imposing sanctions.. However, just looking at the disparity between PL and Championship..
The PL has its own disparity with super rich elite clubs dominating season after season..then there's the middle group, then maybe 6 or 7 cannon fodder (including newly promoted clubs)..
The championship is much more equal and competitive with just the occasional Burton Albino or Yeovil popping in and the odd 'big' PL side dropping down.
But the 'gap' is tangible, most promoted clubs to the PL don't survive and for some the damage is catastrophic.
One way to even things out a bit is have a PL 2..if that's not too big a contradiction.. But a PL2 that has a bigger slice of the funding so clubs can compete better in PL 1.
I'm not going to comment on league one clubs coming up but historically teams have survived and even flourished after being promoted.
I'd also make the National league a league 3 with equalised promotions and relegation.
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Post by townarentbest on Jun 27, 2023 9:49:07 GMT 1
It looks like there is going to be an increase in financial discussion over the coming weeks. Hopefully a decent chunk of it can be contained in here rather than overwhelming other threads (as has happened in the past). Here's some material that shows why it's not necessarily helpful to frame our budget expectations in terms how we perceive ourselves to stack up against club X, Y, Z etc: Championship clubs’ finances are ‘broken’ Fulham. They should rename them, FFS Fulham. Those are eye watering losses. Thanks for sharing. But if they're losses the owner is prepared to shoulder, then so what? Doubt any Fulham fans are complaining too much come August. |
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Post by I have a box full of hats on Jun 27, 2023 9:59:07 GMT 1
Winding up order issued to Pure Sports Consultancy Ltd.
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ram
Andy Booth Terrier
delete account
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Post by ram on Jun 27, 2023 10:29:13 GMT 1
Why are we not on that list?
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Post by rothwellterrier on Jun 27, 2023 10:32:15 GMT 1
Why are we not on that list? I’m guessing it’s because our accounts haven’t been filed. |
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Post by townarentbest on Jun 27, 2023 10:53:32 GMT 1
Why are we not on that list? That list is for 21/22 - Towns latest accounts filed March 2022 cover the period to June 2021. Towns accounts are due to be filed by end of this week to cover period to June 2022. |
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Post by mosher on Jun 27, 2023 10:57:01 GMT 1
Why are we not on that list? It says in the blurb with the chart that some clubs hadn't submitted their accounts when he compiled the info. Edit: Beaten to it by rothwell & townarebest. |
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