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Post by Detective Boyle on Jul 11, 2023 16:42:43 GMT 1
I long for the day when Hoyle’a name sits firmly and only in town’s history. It appears that day is still to come.
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Jul 11, 2023 19:13:08 GMT 1
Going concern? i dont think there are any in the championship. Totally speculative on my part, based on the assumption that Deano wrote off his debt as part of the takeover as mentioned by another poster above. Meaning in theory we'd actually have a positive shareholder balance with hopefully a plan in place to address the relatively small losses going forward. The point I was trying to make is simply compared to the many trainwrecks in the league gambling on promotion, we're on reasonably safe footing. I do agree, i have been supporting the financially cautious approach for over a year. A going concern is more that there has to be a profitable business over a period of time. Intermittent losses are fine but must turnaround in a foreseeable time scale. |
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Post by softboy on Jul 11, 2023 19:39:46 GMT 1
I see match day prices are frozen for next season. I wasn’t previously in the camp of lack of ambition but beginning to move towards it. We charge Leeds fans 25, they charge us 38 or so. Looks like the ‘little Huddersfield ‘ will be our main marketing ploy!
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Post by Teddington Ted on Jul 11, 2023 19:55:50 GMT 1
On the whole we’ve been run very well, as the accounts show with the wage/income ratio and sales figures.
However, 2 key factors have built up a legacy of debt:
- underpriced season tickets. We’ve had 15 years of cheap tickets which have been subsidised by DH’s loans. If the average price was £100 higher, that would be around £2m extra revenue each season. £30m over the 15 year period - almost the entirety of our debt.
- A crazy spell in the PL when we lost our minds.
It’s a bit like reviewing the budget of a young chap enjoying his first wage packets: massive blow out on payday weekend followed by 3.5 weeks of scraping by on just bus fares and homemade sandwiches. Sadly, we’ve had 5 years of scraping by following our blow out in 2018. 5 years and 3 owners later were still seemingly shackled by previous excesses.
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Post by waggers on Jul 11, 2023 20:23:14 GMT 1
I suspect you might have misread something. Chicken has summed up the debt situation well: “The supporting narrative at the beginning of the accounts suggests that Dean Hoyle put an extra £10.5m into Town over the financial year, while their level of debt to the bank was reduced by £13.2m. As of June 2022, that left £44.5m owing to Hoyle, and £2.9m owing to the bank. The club continued to hold £1.3m in cash at year end.” That’s how I read it as well. You are correct, I took the 2021 figures, my bad. So our debt to Dean will be even worse today than I wrote, and those figures are to year end 2022. If we add in all the funds likely contributed in the last 12 months then we're well and truly over a barrel with big Deano. Is Dean still requesting the debt to him be paid or has he written it off as part of the sale? I thought he had written it off but might be wrong. |
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jul 11, 2023 21:54:42 GMT 1
You are correct, I took the 2021 figures, my bad. So our debt to Dean will be even worse today than I wrote, and those figures are to year end 2022. If we add in all the funds likely contributed in the last 12 months then we're well and truly over a barrel with big Deano. Is Dean still requesting the debt to him be paid or has he written it off as part of the sale? I thought he had written it off but might be wrong. Nagle said the club was debt free apart from a manageable sum payable if we reach the PL again, presumably to Hoyle. |
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Post by mooythegoat on Jul 11, 2023 22:24:46 GMT 1
Don't they show that we were practically insolvent? If it wasn't for DH not calling in his loans, we would have gone under a while ago. That's hardy sane (though I appreciate in the context of the league, there are some more insane than others). Isn't that the case for practically every club though? If an owner called in their loans they'd go under - how do you think Boro, Stoke or Brighton would get on if their owners called in their loans? Go easy Maynard, people think Hoyle is an absolute hero for losing money on a football club, you know the thing that 90% of football club owners do. |
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Post by twyford on Jul 12, 2023 0:50:55 GMT 1
Isn't that the case for practically every club though? If an owner called in their loans they'd go under - how do you think Boro, Stoke or Brighton would get on if their owners called in their loans? Go easy Maynard, people think Hoyle is an absolute hero for losing money on a football club, you know the thing that 90% of football club owners do. And there are others who've convinced themselves that he's another Oyston (financially). |
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Post by townarentbest on Jul 12, 2023 1:03:23 GMT 1
On the whole we’ve been run very well, as the accounts show with the wage/income ratio and sales figures. However, 2 key factors have built up a legacy of debt: - underpriced season tickets. We’ve had 15 years of cheap tickets which have been subsidised by DH’s loans. If the average price was £100 higher, that would be around £2m extra revenue each season. £30m over the 15 year period - almost the entirety of our debt. - A crazy spell in the PL when we lost our minds. It’s a bit like reviewing the budget of a young chap enjoying his first wage packets: massive blow out on payday weekend followed by 3.5 weeks of scraping by on just bus fares and homemade sandwiches. Sadly, we’ve had 5 years of scraping by following our blow out in 2018. 5 years and 3 owners later were still seemingly shackled by previous excesses. not really sure how you’re selling 20,000 tickets at 349 for your extra £2m when we sell less than that at a hundred less? Our season tickets aren’t overpriced, they’re right priced. Lots of other clubs are overpriced. I’ve been a season ticket holder since we moved ground…I wouldn’t pay 350…(although have historically), that’s not what a season ticket is worth. (i think they’re actually worth about £200…and £299 is my cut off as things stand) |
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Post by dezzly on Jul 12, 2023 5:38:25 GMT 1
I’m not usually one for calling out anything romance wise really as prefer to try stick to the football.
However if the profit/loss over the last 3 seasons is approximately 8mill loss,2.5mill profit,2mill loss,I can’t get my head round why ffp would be anywhere near the forefront of thinking.Both nagle and warnock have said it is and the window so far would probably indicate it also.
Chicken did also state that yes we could be brushing up against ffp.
Am I missing something?This isn’t me having a pop at the club or anything just more I don’t understand it.
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Post by cecerececerececere on Jul 12, 2023 6:27:47 GMT 1
You are correct, I took the 2021 figures, my bad. So our debt to Dean will be even worse today than I wrote, and those figures are to year end 2022. If we add in all the funds likely contributed in the last 12 months then we're well and truly over a barrel with big Deano. Is Dean still requesting the debt to him be paid or has he written it off as part of the sale? I thought he had written it off but might be wrong. As I understand it, he's written the debt off....unless we get promoted to the PL and then he wants some/all of it paid back. |
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Post by dezzly on Jul 12, 2023 7:15:01 GMT 1
I’m not usually one for calling out anything romance wise really as prefer to try stick to the football. However if the profit/loss over the last 3 seasons is approximately 8mill loss,2.5mill profit,2mill loss,I can’t get my head round why ffp would be anywhere near the forefront of thinking.Both nagle and warnock have said it is and the window so far would probably indicate it also. Chicken did also state that yes we could be brushing up against ffp. Am I missing something?This isn’t me having a pop at the club or anything just more I don’t understand it. Quoting myself here,sad I know,but just listened to chickens pod explaining the finances. Essentially says that due to the loss of revenue from parachute payments the season before last and last season in regards to ffp we effectively lost 24million(ish) and he predicts,although cannot be certain,that last season we will have made a fairly substantial loss(again in terms of how they view it for ffp) This is why,he is saying,we have to be careful this year.Also said year on year from after this the loss of parachute will count less and less towards ffp.Which will mean more wiggle room going forward(potentially depending on KN’s view on things) I guess KN could pump money in to work against ffp constraints and not list it as debt to the club but write it off.However that would be expecting way too much when on top of that would be expected to spend money to improve the squad/wage bill also. Guess have to hold tight for the year and hope warnock does what he’s been brought in to do. |
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Post by Henry Mcgee on Jul 12, 2023 7:29:57 GMT 1
I’m not usually one for calling out anything romance wise really as prefer to try stick to the football. However if the profit/loss over the last 3 seasons is approximately 8mill loss,2.5mill profit,2mill loss,I can’t get my head round why ffp would be anywhere near the forefront of thinking.Both nagle and warnock have said it is and the window so far would probably indicate it also. Chicken did also state that yes we could be brushing up against ffp. Am I missing something?This isn’t me having a pop at the club or anything just more I don’t understand it. Think it's down to parachute payments masking our losses. If we lost £2m in 21-22 (with the extra £15m revenue PPs provided), we'll have lost around £15m in 22-23 - so if we lose similar again this season then we're over £30m for the 3 season period. It will also mean we're around £30m for this year (23-24) and last year before we even start 24-25! KN must have some pretty impressive ideas and people (or some creative accountants!) to have confidence that he can turn the current situation into one that allows him to talk of a return to the Premier League. As he keeps saying, it's not all about money and he's got a solid track record of punching above his weight. |
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Post by Big Ern on Jul 12, 2023 7:52:44 GMT 1
On the whole we’ve been run very well, as the accounts show with the wage/income ratio and sales figures. However, 2 key factors have built up a legacy of debt: - underpriced season tickets. We’ve had 15 years of cheap tickets which have been subsidised by DH’s loans. If the average price was £100 higher, that would be around £2m extra revenue each season. £30m over the 15 year period - almost the entirety of our debt. - A crazy spell in the PL when we lost our minds. It’s a bit like reviewing the budget of a young chap enjoying his first wage packets: massive blow out on payday weekend followed by 3.5 weeks of scraping by on just bus fares and homemade sandwiches. Sadly, we’ve had 5 years of scraping by following our blow out in 2018. 5 years and 3 owners later were still seemingly shackled by previous excesses. not really sure how you’re selling 20,000 tickets at 349 for your extra £2m when we sell less than that at a hundred less? Our season tickets aren’t overpriced, they’re right priced. Lots of other clubs are overpriced. I’ve been a season ticket holder since we moved ground…I wouldn’t pay 350…(although have historically), that’s not what a season ticket is worth. (i think they’re actually worth about £200…and £299 is my cut off as things stand) I disagree, based upon the average value we are getting them very cheap. It's all relative though, I would probably go as far as paying an extra 200 more for mine, any further increases beyond that should be reserved for the Premier League. |
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Post by dezzly on Jul 12, 2023 8:07:26 GMT 1
I’m not usually one for calling out anything romance wise really as prefer to try stick to the football. However if the profit/loss over the last 3 seasons is approximately 8mill loss,2.5mill profit,2mill loss,I can’t get my head round why ffp would be anywhere near the forefront of thinking.Both nagle and warnock have said it is and the window so far would probably indicate it also. Chicken did also state that yes we could be brushing up against ffp. Am I missing something?This isn’t me having a pop at the club or anything just more I don’t understand it. Think it's down to parachute payments masking our losses. If we lost £2m in 21-22 (with the extra £15m revenue PPs provided), we'll have lost around £15m in 22-23 - so if we lose similar again this season then we're over £30m for the 3 season period. It will also mean we're around £30m for this year (23-24) and last year before we even start 24-25! KN must have some pretty impressive ideas and people (or some creative accountants!) to have confidence that he can turn the current situation into one that allows him to talk of a return to the Premier League. As he keeps saying, it's not all about money and he's got a solid track record of punching above his weight. I guess he will try improve revenue streams.How much he can do that who knows,he maybe able to tap into the American market/audience to do that commercially potentially and also think matchday wise he will be looking at it too.Not sure how much difference can be made there but it all helps.Don’t see a world in the championship though where he won’t have to accept losing a certain amount of money each year. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 8:32:08 GMT 1
I think there is hope that if the match day experience can be improved, and we perhaps get control of the stadium, then revenue can be increased in that way. Get them through the door and sell them stuff. Sounds like an American type plan.
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Post by townarentbest on Jul 12, 2023 9:21:55 GMT 1
not really sure how you’re selling 20,000 tickets at 349 for your extra £2m when we sell less than that at a hundred less? Our season tickets aren’t overpriced, they’re right priced. Lots of other clubs are overpriced. I’ve been a season ticket holder since we moved ground…I wouldn’t pay 350…(although have historically), that’s not what a season ticket is worth. (i think they’re actually worth about £200…and £299 is my cut off as things stand) I disagree, based upon the average value we are getting them very cheap. It's all relative though, I would probably go as far as paying an extra 200 more for mine, any further increases beyond that should be reserved for the Premier League. I don't think you can use other clubs pricing or cost as a barometer. I wouldn't pay £10 for a season ticket at Bradford City. But I'd possibly pay £50 for a Hudds Ladies season ticket (but only if they started playing somewhere a bit more convenient). That's their "value" to me. |
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Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
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Post by incognito on Jul 12, 2023 9:36:21 GMT 1
I’m not usually one for calling out anything romance wise really as prefer to try stick to the football. However if the profit/loss over the last 3 seasons is approximately 8mill loss,2.5mill profit,2mill loss,I can’t get my head round why ffp would be anywhere near the forefront of thinking.Both nagle and warnock have said it is and the window so far would probably indicate it also. Chicken did also state that yes we could be brushing up against ffp. Am I missing something?This isn’t me having a pop at the club or anything just more I don’t understand it. Think it's down to parachute payments masking our losses. If we lost £2m in 21-22 (with the extra £15m revenue PPs provided), we'll have lost around £15m in 22-23 - so if we lose similar again this season then we're over £30m for the 3 season period. It will also mean we're around £30m for this year (23-24) and last year before we even start 24-25! KN must have some pretty impressive ideas and people (or some creative accountants!) to have confidence that he can turn the current situation into one that allows him to talk of a return to the Premier League. As he keeps saying, it's not all about money and he's got a solid track record of punching above his weight. That's right. We don't currently have an FFP issue. Our current 3-year rolling profitability and sustainability aggregate is actually as 'healthy' as it will realistically ever be without promotion back to the Premier League (or the Saudis coming in with £50 million for Tyreece Simpson next summer  ). But the situation will now progressively worsen as we roll forward each year and the parachute payment years drop out of the equation, even if we only maintain the 21/22 levels of expenditure. I think the loss you are forecasting for 22/23 is in the right sort of ballpark, but thankfully more than half of that will be offset by around £9 million profit from player sales. |
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Post by rothwellterrier on Jul 12, 2023 9:40:32 GMT 1
Whatever the Wembley receipts (and I agree with your assessment) they'll not be repeated in the '23 figures so the drop in revenue for last season will be more than just the absence of £17m parachute payments which Chicken refers to in his summary. The drop isn't quite that extreme. Chicken should really be taking into account the fact that when you stop receiving parachute payments, you recommence receiving the standard £4.5 million "solidarity" payments. I thought it was nearer 8 million a season? Or is that 8 million made up of all income if you’re relegated to league one? It’s a figure that has been mentioned in relation to the loss of revenue between the championship and league 1. Either way, it’s an omission that Chicken really should and could have mentioned. |
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Post by incognito on Jul 12, 2023 9:50:25 GMT 1
The drop isn't quite that extreme. Chicken should really be taking into account the fact that when you stop receiving parachute payments, you recommence receiving the standard £4.5 million "solidarity" payments. I thought it was nearer 8 million a season? Or is that 8 million made up of all income if you’re relegated to league one? It’s a figure that has been mentioned in relation to the loss of revenue between the championship and league 1. Either way, it’s an omission that Chicken really should and could have mentioned. We'll get between £7-8 million in total. We've still been receiving the EFL 'basic award' of around £2.5 million in recent Championship seasons. We've also been getting roughly between £100k (home) and £10k (away) for each televised game. The "Solidarity Payment" for 22/23 should actually have been around £4.8 million. It's basically 30% of a 3rd Year Parachute Payment (which, itself, is 20% of the Premier League 'Equal Share' amount that season) |
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Post by BLUE&WHITE on Jul 12, 2023 10:01:42 GMT 1
Is Dean still requesting the debt to him be paid or has he written it off as part of the sale? I thought he had written it off but might be wrong. As I understand it, he's written the debt off....unless we get promoted to the PL and then he wants some/all of it paid back. Wasnt it that Dean put the money on the club's books because that forced PH to repay his money as debts. I would guess that Dean got X amount for the purchase price of the club from KN. I would imagine that it's the same amount. I would further guess that by writing it off he can claim it as a loss and write off his tax against it. I might be wrong because I'm not an accountant, perhaps someone can tell us if that seems likely |
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Post by space hardware on Jul 12, 2023 10:11:35 GMT 1
I think there is hope that if the match day experience can be improved, and we perhaps get control of the stadium, then revenue can be increased in that way. Get them through the door and sell them stuff. Sounds like an American type plan. Aimed at tight fisted Yorkshire folk 🤔😬😁 |
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Post by portugalterrier on Jul 12, 2023 10:23:31 GMT 1
The last year of the parachute payment also includes the final expenses of our purchasing follies, therefore the negative effect of losing the parachute money should be offset by the positive of not having the expense of high wages and termination costs of the likes of Kangolo Diakarby et al.
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incognito
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Post by incognito on Jul 12, 2023 10:34:20 GMT 1
We'll get between £7-8 million in total. We've still been receiving the EFL 'basic award' of around £2.5 million in recent Championship seasons. We've also been getting roughly between £100k (home) and £10k (away) for each televised game. The "Solidarity Payment" for 22/23 should actually have been around £4.8 million. It's basically 30% of a 3rd Year Parachute Payment (which, itself, is 20% of the Premier League 'Equal Share' amount that season) So basically how do we survive in the championship if we are always going to be skint. What has happened to the £5m a season we are receiving from Grant/ O’Brien transfer instalments? Surely that paid off the £2.9m bank loan last season. The new EFL TV deal should mean an additional £2 million-ish per championship club from '24/25. More importantly: grow the commercial side of the business, continue to develop players and sell one for decent money every couple of years. We'll still be receiving the transfer instalments, and very useful they will be for ongoing cashflow, but they are not relevant to Profit & Loss / FFP. |
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Post by dezzly on Jul 12, 2023 10:38:06 GMT 1
The last year of the parachute payment also includes the final expenses of our purchasing follies, therefore the negative effect of losing the parachute money should be offset by the positive of not having the expense of high wages and termination costs of the likes of Kangolo Diakarby et al. Realistically try not to expect too much this year and stay in the division isn’t it.Then hopefully can start to take the club forward. |
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Post by Mastercracker on Jul 12, 2023 10:48:02 GMT 1
So basically how do we survive in the championship if we are always going to be skint. What has happened to the £5m a season we are receiving from Grant/ O’Brien transfer instalments? Surely that paid off the £2.9m bank loan last season. The new EFL TV deal should mean an additional £2 million-ish per championship club from '24/25. More importantly: grow the commercial side of the business, continue to develop players and sell one for decent money every couple of years. We'll still be receiving the transfer instalments, and very useful they will be for ongoing cashflow, but they are not relevant to Profit & Loss / FFP. This absolutely has to happen. Our commercial revenue is a joke and has been for years. Fresh from a 2 year spell in the biggest league in the world and our commercial revenue for 2021/22 was £2.4m. Rotherham's was £2.9m. You have to look at that and wonder what the hell is going on. Blackburn, a club with less fans through the door, in a broadly similar not well off Northern town, over 10 years since they were in the top flight - £4.8m. |
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Post by portugalterrier on Jul 12, 2023 11:01:47 GMT 1
The new EFL TV deal should mean an additional £2 million-ish per championship club from '24/25. More importantly: grow the commercial side of the business, continue to develop players and sell one for decent money every couple of years. We'll still be receiving the transfer instalments, and very useful they will be for ongoing cashflow, but they are not relevant to Profit & Loss / FFP. This absolutely has to happen. Our commercial revenue is a joke and has been for years. Fresh from a 2 year spell in the biggest league in the world and our commercial revenue for 2021/22 was £2.4m. Rotherham's was £2.9m. You have to look at that and wonder what the hell is going on. Blackburn, a club with less fans through the door, in a broadly similar not well off Northern town, over 10 years since they were in the top flight - £4.8m. Blackburn , one ground advertiser, Venky, one way of an owner funding his club, same as Rotherham, lighting company owned by the owner. So not a fair representation of “ commercial income “ |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 11:27:20 GMT 1
I think there is hope that if the match day experience can be improved, and we perhaps get control of the stadium, then revenue can be increased in that way. Get them through the door and sell them stuff. Sounds like an American type plan. Aimed at tight fisted Yorkshire folk 🤔😬😁 Hoping to get those wallets open with his charm offensive perhaps? |
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Post by space hardware on Jul 12, 2023 11:34:12 GMT 1
Aimed at tight fisted Yorkshire folk 🤔😬😁 Hoping to get those wallets open with his charm offensive perhaps? With a crowbar 😁 |
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Post by JG Mellor on Jul 12, 2023 12:26:36 GMT 1
On the whole we’ve been run very well, as the accounts show with the wage/income ratio and sales figures. However, 2 key factors have built up a legacy of debt: - underpriced season tickets. We’ve had 15 years of cheap tickets which have been subsidised by DH’s loans. If the average price was £100 higher, that would be around £2m extra revenue each season. £30m over the 15 year period - almost the entirety of our debt. - A crazy spell in the PL when we lost our minds. It’s a bit like reviewing the budget of a young chap enjoying his first wage packets: massive blow out on payday weekend followed by 3.5 weeks of scraping by on just bus fares and homemade sandwiches. Sadly, we’ve had 5 years of scraping by following our blow out in 2018. 5 years and 3 owners later were still seemingly shackled by previous excesses. not really sure how you’re selling 20,000 tickets at 349 for your extra £2m when we sell less than that at a hundred less? Our season tickets aren’t overpriced, they’re right priced. Lots of other clubs are overpriced. I’ve been a season ticket holder since we moved ground…I wouldn’t pay 350…(although have historically), that’s not what a season ticket is worth. (i think they’re actually worth about £200…and £299 is my cut off as things stand) You had a look at your calendar recently - it's 2023. What the f can you get for just over a tenner a throw these days? |
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