|
|
Post by Headless Chicken on Jul 12, 2023 12:28:40 GMT 1
Go easy Maynard, people think Hoyle is an absolute hero for losing money on a football club, you know the thing that 90% of football club owners do. And there are others who've convinced themselves that he's another Oyston (financially). Blinkereds on either extreme of the spectrum. Hopefully most somewhere inbetween and open to new information. |
|
incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,526
|
Post by incognito on Jul 12, 2023 12:46:49 GMT 1
For anybody interested, I've added these 21/22 results to my P&L summary this morning:  nb: The definition of "Operating Profit" has changed this year with player sales now being rolled into it. I've also cobbled together approximate forecasts for '22/23 and '23/24. Not sophisticated - it's basically carrying over some numbers from previous years, and inserting vaguely-educated estimates where appropriate. As high level as it is, it gives an idea of the broad direction of travel. Moving forward, the primary differentiating factor year on year will be profit on player sales: the '22/23 figure is actually quoted towards the end of the most recent set of accounts (whether that includes any impact of NFFC's PL survival I'm not sure). I've included a nominal £2 million for this season to roughly capture the Coady sell-on and likely Camara sale. *Edit: Updated 2024 forecasted FFP Aggregate to apply reference period confirmed in 2023/24 EFL Handbook |
|
incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,526
|
Post by incognito on Jul 12, 2023 12:47:08 GMT 1
The main reason for including the forecast years above was to try and help with the FFP discussion. The blue number is the estimated P&S figure for that season in isolation. The red one is the 3-year aggregate at that point in time based on how the EFL currently calculate it. Again, I'm having to include an arbitrary figure (guess) for youth development expenditure (as they don't isolate it in the accounts, Town would submit an independently audited number separately), and have factored in the maximum allowance for Covid-related losses. Even with a fair margin for error it paints a reasonable picture of where we currently stand, and where we are likely heading. To repeat an earlier post, I'm confident we're nowhere near any imminent FFP sanction: Our current (2023) 3-year aggregate is as 'healthy' as it is ever likely to be without promotion back to the PL. But, as the scope rolls forward each year and the parachute payment years drop out of the equation, it's not inconceivable that we could be approaching the £15 million lower loss threshold by this time next year. Even then, provided the owner continues to demonstrate proof of secured funds to underwrite the loss, we're still some way off the pace required to trouble the £39 million upper loss threshold that could result in EFL sanction. That said, it does demonstrate the need to be sensible with our financial planning, and not dramatically ramp up expenditure disproportionately to turnover. |
|
|
|
Post by townarentbest on Jul 12, 2023 12:52:05 GMT 1
The new EFL TV deal should mean an additional £2 million-ish per championship club from '24/25. More importantly: grow the commercial side of the business, continue to develop players and sell one for decent money every couple of years. We'll still be receiving the transfer instalments, and very useful they will be for ongoing cashflow, but they are not relevant to Profit & Loss / FFP. This absolutely has to happen. Our commercial revenue is a joke and has been for years. Fresh from a 2 year spell in the biggest league in the world and our commercial revenue for 2021/22 was £2.4m. Rotherham's was £2.9m. You have to look at that and wonder what the hell is going on. Blackburn, a club with less fans through the door, in a broadly similar not well off Northern town, over 10 years since they were in the top flight - £4.8m. Be careful you don't besmirch the name of the Commercial Director who presided over the Premier League period and many years of underperformance before that! Really good at building relationships and was a big part of the positive  of feedback we had from the club over a lengthy period...but as commercial director..."should get better results" would be my verdict. |
|
|
|
Post by kennyk2 on Jul 12, 2023 13:00:18 GMT 1
The financial results explained by Steve Chicken here |
|
|
|
Post by townarentbest on Jul 12, 2023 13:02:26 GMT 1
not really sure how you’re selling 20,000 tickets at 349 for your extra £2m when we sell less than that at a hundred less? Our season tickets aren’t overpriced, they’re right priced. Lots of other clubs are overpriced. I’ve been a season ticket holder since we moved ground…I wouldn’t pay 350…(although have historically), that’s not what a season ticket is worth. (i think they’re actually worth about £200…and £299 is my cut off as things stand) You had a look at your calendar recently - it's 2023. What the f can you get for just over a tenner a throw these days? Two or three hours at a Comedy Club. A couple of Netflix, Prime, Disney, Apple TV, YouTube Music or Spotify subs. A subscription to be able to see any film whenever you want at an Odeon. A monthly gym membership at £20 or so (assuming you're going to go a couple of times a month as a minimum). A nice bottle of wine, or a couple of ok bottles. Plenty. |
|
goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,609
|
Post by goodbet on Jul 12, 2023 13:07:30 GMT 1
Supporting Town gives you so much more. Time away from the wife  Meeting with your mates 90 min of football topics to discuss in the pub All the time spent on here delighting some and annoying many others |
|
|
|
Post by softboy on Jul 12, 2023 14:04:50 GMT 1
We can afford to go to Cornwall on a pre season trip. Reading can afford to go to Spain for there pre season trip. We cannot compete, end of
|
|
|
|
Post by philatrickstarbuck on Jul 12, 2023 14:32:02 GMT 1
You had a look at your calendar recently - it's 2023. What the f can you get for just over a tenner a throw these days? Two or three hours at a Comedy Club. A couple of Netflix, Prime, Disney, Apple TV, YouTube Music or Spotify subs. A subscription to be able to see any film whenever you want at an Odeon. A monthly gym membership at £20 or so (assuming you're going to go a couple of times a month as a minimum). A nice bottle of wine, or a couple of ok bottles. Plenty. I bought a 2 pack of brushes for my cordless drill & a new phone case, both for 9 quid this morning UTT |
|
digs
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,141
|
Post by digs on Jul 12, 2023 14:50:48 GMT 1
Two or three hours at a Comedy Club. A couple of Netflix, Prime, Disney, Apple TV, YouTube Music or Spotify subs. A subscription to be able to see any film whenever you want at an Odeon. A monthly gym membership at £20 or so (assuming you're going to go a couple of times a month as a minimum). A nice bottle of wine, or a couple of ok bottles. Plenty. I bought a 2 pack of brushes for my cordless drill & a new phone case, both for 9 quid this morning UTT just short of 7 pints of Dorada in Tenerife for 10€ too |
|
|
|
Post by twyford on Jul 12, 2023 15:16:30 GMT 1
We can afford to go to Cornwall on a pre season trip. Reading can afford to go to Spain for there pre season trip. We cannot compete, end of Know someone who knows someone in the Reading ticket office. The Spain trip was arranged by Ince before he was fired. It would appear that they can't back out of it even though they recently only had 8 of last season's first team squad available. They continue to have restrictions on additional signings and salaries of staff as well as players have been delayed and part deferred in recent months. I think we're in a much better position than them. |
|
|
|
Post by Teddington Ted on Jul 12, 2023 15:17:56 GMT 1
There’s at least 15 pages in this ‘what’s the best way to spend ten quid?’ subplot. 12 Scotch Eggs is my suggestion.
|
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Jul 12, 2023 15:20:53 GMT 1
Duty free - 24 440ml cans of San Miguel - £10
24 330ml cans of Strongbow - £9
Both 5%. Both outstanding drinks.
|
|
|
|
Post by CurlyWurly on Jul 12, 2023 15:34:27 GMT 1
I'd rather town were a bit shit and pay £250 than be alright and pay £400+. Charging the fans more won't drastically improve things by any stretch
|
|
goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,609
|
Post by goodbet on Jul 12, 2023 15:39:17 GMT 1
I'd rather town were a bit shit and pay £250 than be alright and pay £400+. Charging the fans more won't drastically improve things by any stretch We all have different perspectives on this and for a lucky few a price increase would be seen as affordable. |
|
|
|
Post by detox on Jul 12, 2023 17:46:05 GMT 1
Given our average home 'attendance' last season, excluding away fans, was 11,788...we've got some work to do. I was shocked to note on avarage over 5,000 SC holders didn't attend games.. obviously that their choice having stumped up their cash, and yes it was a difficult season but some attendances were below 10,000..
|
|
|
|
Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Jul 12, 2023 17:50:32 GMT 1
I’m not usually one for calling out anything romance wise really as prefer to try stick to the football. However if the profit/loss over the last 3 seasons is approximately 8mill loss,2.5mill profit,2mill loss,I can’t get my head round why ffp would be anywhere near the forefront of thinking.Both nagle and warnock have said it is and the window so far would probably indicate it also. Chicken did also state that yes we could be brushing up against ffp. Am I missing something?This isn’t me having a pop at the club or anything just more I don’t understand it. They know the latest figures |
|
|
|
Post by cecerececerececere on Jul 12, 2023 18:19:22 GMT 1
As I understand it, he's written the debt off....unless we get promoted to the PL and then he wants some/all of it paid back. Wasnt it that Dean put the money on the club's books because that forced PH to repay his money as debts. I would guess that Dean got X amount for the purchase price of the club from KN. I would imagine that it's the same amount. I would further guess that by writing it off he can claim it as a loss and write off his tax against it. I might be wrong because I'm not an accountant, perhaps someone can tell us if that seems likely "New owner Kevin Nagle has since made clear that all of Hoyle’s debt has been written off bar one payment that would need to be made should the club be promoted to the Premier League. The exact amount that would be payable is unclear at this stage." From Steve Chickens piece in the Examiner. It could be £5, it could be the £40m that Hoyle has already 'written off' to great acclaim. I'd like to know the answer. |
|
|
|
Post by Headless Chicken on Jul 12, 2023 18:48:35 GMT 1
Given our average home 'attendance' last season, excluding away fans, was 11,788...we've got some work to do. I was shocked to note on avarage over 5,000 SC holders didn't attend games.. obviously that their choice having stumped up their cash, and yes it was a difficult season but some attendances were below 10,000.. Last season I went to a lot less home games than usual, but still the majority. In prior years I tried to organise things around Town, but have to a large degree stopped that now. I also scrapped a fair few midweeks when working. Suppose it's that to many the STs are very cheap, so happy to buy them, even if you're gonna miss 8 or 9+. |
|
|
|
Post by softboy on Jul 12, 2023 19:01:24 GMT 1
Sorry but where does the average home attendance of below 12000 ignoring away fans come from and probably more importantly how does this compare to other clubs?
|
|
|
|
Post by detox on Jul 12, 2023 19:51:07 GMT 1
Sorry but where does the average home attendance of below 12000 ignoring away fans come from and probably more importantly how does this compare to other clubs? From me via my reliable sources.The lowest attendance was v Bristol city, 7,829 plus 393 away fans, the 'gate' was announced as 17,177. |
|
|
|
Post by Big Ern on Jul 12, 2023 19:53:40 GMT 1
Sorry but where does the average home attendance of below 12000 ignoring away fans come from and probably more importantly how does this compare to other clubs? From me via my reliable sources.The lowest attendance was v Bristol city, 7,829 plus 393 away fans, the 'gate' was announced as 17,177. I can't see it being as shit as that this season with Warnock at the helm. You can't blame people for not wanting to see the shit served up under Rab C Lightyear |
|
|
|
Post by detox on Jul 12, 2023 20:06:36 GMT 1
From me via my reliable sources.The lowest attendance was v Bristol city, 7,829 plus 393 away fans, the 'gate' was announced as 17,177. I can't see it being as shit as that this season with Warnock at the helm. You can't blame people for not wanting to see the shit served up under Rab C Lightyear Our last 4 home games we had between 12,600 and 16,100 attending..so yes, definitely a low spot. |
|
|
|
Post by detox on Jul 12, 2023 20:06:49 GMT 1
From me via my reliable sources.The lowest attendance was v Bristol city, 7,829 plus 393 away fans, the 'gate' was announced as 17,177. I can't see it being as shit as that this season with Warnock at the helm. You can't blame people for not wanting to see the shit served up under Rab C Lightyear Our last 4 home games we had between 12,600 and 16,100 attending..so yes, definitely a low spot. |
|
|
|
Post by brighousebandbred on Jul 12, 2023 20:18:20 GMT 1
Sorry but where does the average home attendance of below 12000 ignoring away fans come from and probably more importantly how does this compare to other clubs? From me via my reliable sources.The lowest attendance was v Bristol city, 7,829 plus 393 away fans, the 'gate' was announced as 17,177. Not to suggest you’re fibbing and I believe you but literally anyone could come out with from my reliable source and quote random info on attendance s . But as we really were a complete shit show for most of last season I do believe you and I’m quite suprised that many went. |
|
midge
Andy Booth Terrier
[M0:5]
Posts: 3,443
|
Post by midge on Jul 12, 2023 20:25:34 GMT 1
We can afford to go to Cornwall on a pre season trip. Reading can afford to go to Spain for there pre season trip. We cannot compete, end of 1) Warnock goes on the Cornwall pre season trip with just about every club he manages. it's his thing and nothing to do with funds or budgets. 2) I am not sure that Reading are a club whose financial model we should be following!! |
|
|
|
Post by impact on Jul 12, 2023 21:32:46 GMT 1
So went spent more on Helik than we did in the whole of the 21/22 season.
|
|
|
|
Post by dbterrier32 on Jul 13, 2023 0:05:15 GMT 1
We can afford to go to Cornwall on a pre season trip. Reading can afford to go to Spain for there pre season trip. We cannot compete, end of Warnock will have chosen this tour. He has done it with a lot of his other teams, so it will be more that, than we couldnt afford to. |
|
|
|
Post by colnevalleyblue on Jul 13, 2023 6:59:26 GMT 1
We can afford to go to Cornwall on a pre season trip. Reading can afford to go to Spain for there pre season trip. We cannot compete, end of Warnock will have chosen this tour. He has done it with a lot of his other teams, so it will be more that, than we couldnt afford to. Plus 7 nights stay in a hotel down in Cornwall will be more expensive than a week in Spain. Its not like they've been sent down to kip in a tent on the beach. |
|
|
|
Post by RickDangerous on Jul 13, 2023 7:06:48 GMT 1
Warnock will have chosen this tour. He has done it with a lot of his other teams, so it will be more that, than we couldnt afford to. Plus 7 nights stay in a hotel down in Cornwall will be more expensive than a week in Spain. Its not like they've been sent down to kip in a tent on the beach. Despite Jonny Hogg begging to do so. |
|
of feedback we had from the club over a lengthy period...but as commercial director..."should get better results" would be my verdict.
