DATM Structure re:Transfers

[Gag_N_Bone_Man (Destabiliser)]

i all

As some of you may recall, a few weeks back kennyk2 and I took the decision, following a suggestion from a user, to tweak the layout of the forum – specifically in regard to how we deal with transfer speculation.

Opinion over the change has been divided. Some people feel the new way is cleaner, some prefer the old way, and some can see that change was probably needed but have found this new layout hard to navigate.

Kenny and I have objectively considered all of this feedback and have come up with the following solution for future transfer windows.

1. We are going to archive the threads In the current sub-board. We’ll post a link to where they can be read. In effect an archive is a read only historical section. This means if someone wants to prove whether or not someone said Player X was the next Messi you can check, find the post (of it exists) and link to the post in a current “live” thread.

2. We are going to remove the sub-board.

3. We are going to replace the sub-board with a dedicated “transfers” board. This makes it more visible from the main menu, but keeps it separate from the more general ongoing Town chatter on Talk of the Town.
4. This board will include player specific threads and a general gossip thread for discussions of non-Town related transfers.
5. These changes will be implemented in the first week of November.

I think it’s clear that some people felt we Admins were unnecessarily meddling, making change for the sake of it. To anyone who thinks this, I’d simply ask what you think we gain from doing this? What both Kenny and I would prefer as admins is to never be seen – to be the mythical invisible referee who has such a good game you don’t notice them.

What is also clear, I think, is that if we were to start DATM from scratch as a clean, new forum, it would look quite a bit different – this change came about from someone seeing something that worked elsewhere and suggesting it. We are open to these suggestions, but what is clear is that some people will be unhappy with any suggestion of change. Therefore, going forward we propose that any wholesale changes Kenny and I think may be of benefit will be put to a vote via a thread with a poll, with the outcome of the vote being implemented. If you want to suggest a change, please do DM Kenny and I with them. We’ll discss them and decide between us which we think warrant a vote.

Thanks for reading,

Graeme and Kenny
Admin Team

[sapphireblue]

One small suggestion.
The stickied confirmed transfer thread (ins and out) is a very good idea.
But it needs to be restricted.
Maybe, if possible, locked to all but the admins, who would only post confirmed transfers.
Seeing the "new post" flag in the thread and clicking only to find an "Isn't there any news?" type post was very irksome.
One couldn't even reply and say so, as this would have added more meaningless nonsense.
Just a suggestion.

[bluestripe]

Get your tin hats on and good luck!

[kennyk2]

Oct 21, 2020 14:09:28 GMT 1 sapphireblue said:

One small suggestion.
The stickied confirmed transfer thread (ins and out) is a very good idea.
But it needs to be restricted.
Maybe, if possible, locked to all but the admins, who would only post confirmed transfers.
Seeing the "new post" flag in the thread and clicking only to find an "Isn't there any news?" type post was very irksome.
One couldn't even reply and say so, as this would have added more meaningless nonsense.
Just a suggestion.

Rather than a specific thread for "Confirmed Transfers" we will change the title of in individual player's transfer thread and add "SIGNED" (or similar, e.g. "SIGNED FOR THE MASSIVE").

[sapphireblue]

Oct 21, 2020 14:19:44 GMT 1 kennyk2 said:

Oct 21, 2020 14:09:28 GMT 1 sapphireblue said:

One small suggestion.
The stickied confirmed transfer thread (ins and out) is a very good idea.
But it needs to be restricted.
Maybe, if possible, locked to all but the admins, who would only post confirmed transfers.
Seeing the "new post" flag in the thread and clicking only to find an "Isn't there any news?" type post was very irksome.
One couldn't even reply and say so, as this would have added more meaningless nonsense.
Just a suggestion.

Rather than a specific thread for "Confirmed Transfers" we will change the title of in individual player's transfer thread and add "SIGNED" (or similar, e.g. "SIGNED FOR THE MASSIVE").

Fair enough, but the squad list in the first post was very useful too.

[Gag_N_Bone_Man (Destabiliser)]

Oct 21, 2020 14:25:45 GMT 1 sapphireblue said:

Oct 21, 2020 14:19:44 GMT 1 kennyk2 said:

Rather than a specific thread for "Confirmed Transfers" we will change the title of in individual player's transfer thread and add "SIGNED" (or similar, e.g. "SIGNED FOR THE MASSIVE").

Fair enough, but the squad list in the first post was very useful too.

We can probably do both - just leave the confirmed one locked for comment.

[Deleted]

This seems like a bad idea just repeating pretty much exactly what you already did except creating a NEW board that people won't find, compared to a sub-board thats easy to notice. Most people probably have a bookmark to the ToTT board, and don't ever visit the 'Main Menu'.

This bad idea is therefore pretty much exactly the same thing that some (a few) people like and some (a lot) of people don't! So why do it?? The discussion that flared up was pretty clear that MOST people didn't like the new layout.


When it was one big thread for each window, it was easy and quick to dip in at your 'last read' place and then quickly skip forward in time, ignoring the chaff and reading the wheat.

If every player gets a player specific thread, then you have to dip into multiple threads and skim through multiple lots of chaff. It doesn't work. Surely thats obvious by seeing that BY A LONG WAY, the most viewed and most replied to thread on the sub-board in terms of transfer gossip, is the one that you closed a first post with a "please don't reply to this thread with transfer rumours" comment! It became the "Summer Transfer Window Rumours Thread".

Create a pinned thread in the normal ToTT board for "Mid Season Transfer Window Gossip" and just leave it to grow full of crap and nuggets until February. Thats what MOST people want, the posting numbers demonstrate that.

[rastrick32]

Bring back Nick, Enoch, Marcus, 3pipes, Morley, sussed and biffy.

Those are my demands. Otherwise I will not accept any tinkering.

All the very best and kind regards,

Andy Burnham

[Gag_N_Bone_Man (Destabiliser)]

Oct 21, 2020 15:29:06 GMT 1 rastrick32 said:

Bring back Nick, Enoch, Marcus, 3pipes, Morley, sussed and biffy.

Those are my demands. Otherwise I will not accept any tinkering.

All the very best and kind regards,

Andy Burnham

"Apparently they're changing the layout again, Andy... "

[Macduff]

I liked the separate player threads. Those players I quickly became disinterested in (Willock, Welbeck to name 2) I didn't have to read about, so it certainly works for me.

[incognito]

Oct 21, 2020 15:18:55 GMT 1 @ennius said:

This seems like a bad idea just repeating pretty much exactly what you already did except creating a NEW board that people won't find, compared to a sub-board thats easy to notice. Most people probably have a bookmark to the ToTT board, and don't ever visit the 'Main Menu'.

This bad idea is therefore pretty much exactly the same thing that some (a few) people like and some (a lot) of people don't! So why do it?? The discussion that flared up was pretty clear that MOST people didn't like the new layout.


When it was one big thread for each window, it was easy and quick to dip in at your 'last read' place and then quickly skip forward in time, ignoring the chaff and reading the wheat.

If every player gets a player specific thread, then you have to dip into multiple threads and skim through multiple lots of chaff. It doesn't work. Surely thats obvious by seeing that BY A LONG WAY, the most viewed and most replied to thread on the sub-board in terms of transfer gossip, is the one that you closed a first post with a "please don't reply to this thread with transfer rumours" comment! It became the "Summer Transfer Window Rumours Thread".

Create a pinned thread in the normal ToTT board for "Mid Season Transfer Window Gossip" and just leave it to grow full of crap and nuggets until February. Thats what MOST people want, the posting numbers demonstrate that.

I have to agree with this.

When the original sub board was introduced I wasn't particularly concerned either way.

In practice, however, I found the requirement to straddle half a dozen or more threads each time I sought an update to be increasingly cumbersome.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2020 13:58:25 GMT 1 Gag_N_Bone_Man (Destabiliser) said:

i all

As some of you may recall, a few weeks back kennyk2 and I took the decision, following a suggestion from a user, to tweak the layout of the forum – specifically in regard to how we deal with transfer speculation.

Opinion over the change has been divided. Some people feel the new way is cleaner, some prefer the old way, and some can see that change was probably needed but have found this new layout hard to navigate.

Kenny and I have objectively considered all of this feedback and have come up with the following solution for future transfer windows.

1. We are going to archive the threads In the current sub-board. We’ll post a link to where they can be read. In effect an archive is a read only historical section. This means if someone wants to prove whether or not someone said Player X was the next Messi you can check, find the post (of it exists) and link to the post in a current “live” thread.

2. We are going to remove the sub-board.

3. We are going to replace the sub-board with a dedicated “transfers” board. This makes it more visible from the main menu, but keeps it separate from the more general ongoing Town chatter on Talk of the Town.
4. This board will include player specific threads and a general gossip thread for discussions of non-Town related transfers.
5. These changes will be implemented in the first week of November.

I think it’s clear that some people felt we Admins were unnecessarily meddling, making change for the sake of it. To anyone who thinks this, I’d simply ask what you think we gain from doing this? What both Kenny and I would prefer as admins is to never be seen – to be the mythical invisible referee who has such a good game you don’t notice them.

What is also clear, I think, is that if we were to start DATM from scratch as a clean, new forum, it would look quite a bit different – this change came about from someone seeing something that worked elsewhere and suggesting it. We are open to these suggestions, but what is clear is that some people will be unhappy with any suggestion of change. Therefore, going forward we propose that any wholesale changes Kenny and I think may be of benefit will be put to a vote via a thread with a poll, with the outcome of the vote being implemented. If you want to suggest a change, please do DM Kenny and I with them. We’ll discss them and decide between us which we think warrant a vote.

Thanks for reading,

Graeme and Kenny
Admin Team

This whole proposition seems to be a 'wholesale change', so surely it should be decided by a poll? A) Make the changes or B) Revert back to how it was before the current transfer window. I'll vote for 'B' please.

[Frankiesleftpeg]

Seems like more tinkering for the sake of it. Just put everything back on Talk of the Town and forget the new transfers board which isn't needed.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2020 16:43:04 GMT 1 trotsky said:

Oct 21, 2020 13:58:25 GMT 1 Gag_N_Bone_Man (Destabiliser) said:

i all

As some of you may recall, a few weeks back kennyk2 and I took the decision, following a suggestion from a user, to tweak the layout of the forum – specifically in regard to how we deal with transfer speculation.

Opinion over the change has been divided. Some people feel the new way is cleaner, some prefer the old way, and some can see that change was probably needed but have found this new layout hard to navigate.

Kenny and I have objectively considered all of this feedback and have come up with the following solution for future transfer windows.

1. We are going to archive the threads In the current sub-board. We’ll post a link to where they can be read. In effect an archive is a read only historical section. This means if someone wants to prove whether or not someone said Player X was the next Messi you can check, find the post (of it exists) and link to the post in a current “live” thread.

2. We are going to remove the sub-board.

3. We are going to replace the sub-board with a dedicated “transfers” board. This makes it more visible from the main menu, but keeps it separate from the more general ongoing Town chatter on Talk of the Town.
4. This board will include player specific threads and a general gossip thread for discussions of non-Town related transfers.
5. These changes will be implemented in the first week of November.

I think it’s clear that some people felt we Admins were unnecessarily meddling, making change for the sake of it. To anyone who thinks this, I’d simply ask what you think we gain from doing this? What both Kenny and I would prefer as admins is to never be seen – to be the mythical invisible referee who has such a good game you don’t notice them.

What is also clear, I think, is that if we were to start DATM from scratch as a clean, new forum, it would look quite a bit different – this change came about from someone seeing something that worked elsewhere and suggesting it. We are open to these suggestions, but what is clear is that some people will be unhappy with any suggestion of change. Therefore, going forward we propose that any wholesale changes Kenny and I think may be of benefit will be put to a vote via a thread with a poll, with the outcome of the vote being implemented. If you want to suggest a change, please do DM Kenny and I with them. We’ll discss them and decide between us which we think warrant a vote.

Thanks for reading,

Graeme and Kenny
Admin Team

This whole proposition seems to be a 'wholesale change', so surely it should be decided by a poll? A) Make the changes or B) Revert back to how it was before the current transfer window. I'll vote for 'B' please.

I can see why people don’t want to trawl through the rumours, but it’s very easy to just scroll past.

Plenty of times in the previous thread I saw a post that was absolute shite. I didn’t moan, I didn’t cry, I just moved to the next post.

Would make sense to revert back to that thread for all confirmed and rumoured transfers moving forward.

However, it’s a thankless task, and I’m sure the Admins have weighed up the pros and cons of every option.

But yeah, I vote B, too.

[Porrohman]

I liked the new way. I've never found finding it a problem.

[Deleted]

Why not have both?

Have a single pinned transfer rumour/discussion thread in the main ToTT board, and then build whatever you want elsewhere with separate threads for every footballer on the planet etc (ideally with Paulo Wanchope pinned to the top), and people can then consume and contribute in the way they want to no matter what their preference?

[Galpharmer]

Terry would sort it out.

[detox]

Don't understand the fuddle tbh...if you select "recent threads" every time you get everything from all the boards,,,off topic etc etc..so anything posted in the transfers board recently will appear on your screen, you don'thave to switch in and out of the main board..

[upthetown]

Put it back how it was... one big thread on the main board. Usually if someone actually signs a new thread appears.

And click the “new” button to go directly to your last read post. Easy.

[bigtruck]

The fact the new sub board was actually fairly quiet Highlights the amount of guff that was put in the old transfer threads.

[H6dds]

In theory the new system sounded like it could work but I think most people agree that it didn’t really work that well in practice.

I think about the former “transfer window thread” as a feed where you look to see if anything new has happened. Every thread on the sub-board seemed to be going towards this as the window went on. Then on the last day I didn’t even know which one I was reading because all the active threads had pretty much the same discussion.

It happened several times this window that I stopped reading a thread and then find out days later that it had evolved to the new “main” transfer thread where Maynard had posted about new players inbound etc. So even if I don’t want to read certain threads I still have to if I don’t want to miss anything about the stuff I want to read about.

So in practice, instead of having one big thread full of everything, the only real difference was we now had at least 5 smaller threads filled up with everything.

We have tried this way now, some didn’t like it from the start, and some gave it a chance during this window but I’d say we now have proof enough that it doesn’t work and we should go back to the old way as soon as possible in my opinion.

[Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier]

I didn’t have a problem with the old one big thread on TOTT, except that 90% of the posts were irrelevant, including 98.2% of townrwe’s posts. Equally, I didn’t have a problem with the new sub-board either. It’s easy enough to skim read and avoid the crap.

Whatever the admins thinks works best for the forum and best for themselves is fine by me.

[detox]

Oct 22, 2020 7:51:17 GMT 1 H6dds said:

In theory the new system sounded like it could work but I think most people agree that it didn’t really work that well in practice.

I think about the former “transfer window thread” as a feed where you look to see if anything new has happened. Every thread on the sub-board seemed to be going towards this as the window went on. Then on the last day I didn’t even know which one I was reading because all the active threads had pretty much the same discussion.

It happened several times this window that I stopped reading a thread and then find out days later that it had evolved to the new “main” transfer thread where Maynard had posted about new players inbound etc. So even if I don’t want to read certain threads I still have to if I don’t want to miss anything about the stuff I want to read about.

So in practice, instead of having one big thread full of everything, the only real difference was we now had at least 5 smaller threads filled up with everything.

We have tried this way now, some didn’t like it from the start, and some gave it a chance during this window but I’d say we now have proof enough that it doesn’t work and we should go back to the old way as soon as possible in my opinion.

i'd agree with all that, I found it confusing with a lot of duplication and fragmentation.

The previous method had become a long and mainly irrelevant thread which seemed to increase by 3-4 pages every day. Miss a few days and you've to trawl through 10+ pages to see what's been posted . That was unacceptable too.

There was also a degree of off topic chatter in there, as there is in a lot of threads which tends to 'bulk up' the page content.

It's also difficult to have a thread for each player, because often several players are mentioned in and amongst the topic player..Someone says we're interested in x, instead of y, but also z has been rumoured..No one is going to dissect that and post three seperate posts.

Maybe the easiest soliution, if technically possible, is to archive everything except the latest ten pages, so the thread only shows what's recent and if you want to look back at an earlier post you find it in archive. That way there's only one thread and it's only ever going to be ten pages long...posters will hopefully show some discipline and keep on topic when knowing in a few days all their guff will be archived anyway.. We don't actually need seperate 'rumours' and 'confirmed' threads do we, because in reality 99%of the content is rumours anyway.

[detox]

Oct 21, 2020 15:18:55 GMT 1 @ennius said:

This seems like a bad idea just repeating pretty much exactly what you already did except creating a NEW board that people won't find, compared to a sub-board thats easy to notice. Most people probably have a bookmark to the ToTT board, and don't ever visit the 'Main Menu'.

This bad idea is therefore pretty much exactly the same thing that some (a few) people like and some (a lot) of people don't! So why do it?? The discussion that flared up was pretty clear that MOST people didn't like the new layout.


When it was one big thread for each window, it was easy and quick to dip in at your 'last read' place and then quickly skip forward in time, ignoring the chaff and reading the wheat.

If every player gets a player specific thread, then you have to dip into multiple threads and skim through multiple lots of chaff. It doesn't work. Surely thats obvious by seeing that BY A LONG WAY, the most viewed and most replied to thread on the sub-board in terms of transfer gossip, is the one that you closed a first post with a "please don't reply to this thread with transfer rumours" comment! It became the "Summer Transfer Window Rumours Thread".

Create a pinned thread in the normal ToTT board for "Mid Season Transfer Window Gossip" and just leave it to grow full of crap and nuggets until February. Thats what MOST people want, the posting numbers demonstrate that.

How do you do that please ? 

[detox]

Oct 21, 2020 18:59:26 GMT 1 upthetown said:

Put it back how it was... one big thread on the main board. Usually if someone actually signs a new thread appears.

And click the “new” button to go directly to your last read post. Easy.

That doesn't work like you say it does,not for me anyway.

I see the 'NEW' indicator so I click on it, but it doesn't take me to where I left off last time, it takes me to page 1. 

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2020 8:36:30 GMT 1 detox said:

Oct 21, 2020 18:59:26 GMT 1 upthetown said:

Put it back how it was... one big thread on the main board. Usually if someone actually signs a new thread appears.

And click the “new” button to go directly to your last read post. Easy.

That doesn't work like you say it does,not for me anyway.

I see the 'NEW' indicator so I click on it, but it doesn't take me to where I left off last time, it takes me to page 1. 

Are you *logged in* when you've read?

The 'new' button should take you to the first new unread post in a thread (and works across multiple browsers and device types successfully for me).

[RickDangerous]

Oct 22, 2020 8:23:13 GMT 1 Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier said:

I didn’t have a problem with the old one big thread on TOTT, except that 90% of the posts were irrelevant, including 98.2% of townrwe’s posts. Equally, I didn’t have a problem with the new sub-board either. It’s easy enough to skim read and avoid the crap.

Whatever the admins thinks works best for the forum and best for themselves is fine by me.

I vote for a configuration that bans him from that specific thread.

[Gag_N_Bone_Man (Destabiliser)]

Oct 22, 2020 9:54:23 GMT 1 RickDangerous said:

Oct 22, 2020 8:23:13 GMT 1 Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier said:

I didn’t have a problem with the old one big thread on TOTT, except that 90% of the posts were irrelevant, including 98.2% of townrwe’s posts. Equally, I didn’t have a problem with the new sub-board either. It’s easy enough to skim read and avoid the crap.

Whatever the admins thinks works best for the forum and best for themselves is fine by me.

I vote for a configuration that bans him from that specific thread.

This might actually be possible, but as much as some people think otherwise, this isn't some kind of totalitarian regime...

[detox]

Oct 22, 2020 9:53:04 GMT 1 @ennius said:

Oct 22, 2020 8:36:30 GMT 1 detox said:

That doesn't work like you say it does,not for me anyway.

I see the 'NEW' indicator so I click on it, but it doesn't take me to where I left off last time, it takes me to page 1. 

Are you *logged in* when you've read?

The 'new' button should take you to the first new unread post in a thread (and works across multiple browsers and device types successfully for me).

I tried it on the 556 page Covid thread and it took me to page 1.  I then did it a second time and it took me to page 552.. so maybe I have to do it twice ? I am logged in..

[gorre]

Oct 22, 2020 10:13:53 GMT 1 detox said:

Oct 22, 2020 9:53:04 GMT 1 @ennius said:

Are you *logged in* when you've read?

The 'new' button should take you to the first new unread post in a thread (and works across multiple browsers and device types successfully for me).

I tried it on the 556 page Covid thread and it took me to page 1.  I then did it a second time and it took me to page 552.. so maybe I have to do it twice ? I am logged in..

It does that for me on the iPad but the reason is if you don’t exactly hit the right place on the “new” button it registers that you have just clicked the thread so directs to page 1....so anyone with fat fingers beware..!