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Post by Mastercracker on Aug 28, 2024 11:00:14 GMT 1
The one thing in the system I am not currently understanding is Hogg. IMO you do not need an out and out defensive midfielder sat shielding a back 3. He's sat 5 to 10 yards in front of them like he's shielding 2 centre backs, which is a totally different job. There's 3 of them, 95% of the time dealing with 1 or 2 strikers. One (or two) of them is the spare man, and needs an option to easily pass into midfield considering none of our CBs are brilliant on the ball. Hogg has no ability whatsoever on the half turn though so if they do find him all they get is a simple return pass, that moves the problem on for 3 seconds. Either that or he doesn't show for it. The only way we get out currently is through the wingbacks but thats very quickly becoming too easy to play against.
It's made worse by Evans and Wiles pulling wide, in an effort I think to overload the opposition fullbacks along with our WB. Leaving a bloke in midfield alone who's not really comfortable on the ball and doesn't really want it.
Thinking of another side who recently had a lot of success with a 352, Sheff United. They had Norwood at DM, a playmaker. Can do just about enough defensively but can set a tempo, find passes forward and is comfortable with his back to goal and in tight spaces. I'm not saying we need Norwood (although he's a good signing for Stockport), but we need someone of that ilk. Kane has to play there once fit for me. Playing at DM in front of a back 3 is a completely different job to playing there in a 433 or 4231. The defensive requirements are lessened.
Hogg at his peak was a mobile hugely fit ball winning midfielder, positionally sound, but never had great ability on the ball. Win it, give it to Norwood/Clayton/Butterfield/Mooy/Billing/LOB (to dribble rather than pass) etc to do something with. Shield the back 4. A key role, but not so much in this setup.
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Post by leyburnterrier on Aug 28, 2024 11:10:10 GMT 1
The one thing in the system I am not currently understanding is Hogg. IMO you do not need an out and out defensive midfielder sat shielding a back 3. He's sat 5 to 10 yards in front of them like he's shielding 2 centre backs, which is a totally different job. There's 3 of them, 95% of the time dealing with 1 or 2 strikers. One (or two) of them is the spare man, and needs an option to easily pass into midfield considering none of our CBs are brilliant on the ball. Hogg has no ability whatsoever on the half turn though so if they do find him all they get is a simple return pass, that moves the problem on for 3 seconds. Either that or he doesn't show for it. The only way we get out currently is through the wingbacks but thats very quickly becoming too easy to play against. It's made worse by Evans and Wiles pulling wide, in an effort I think to overload the opposition fullbacks along with our WB. Leaving a bloke in midfield alone who's not really comfortable on the ball and doesn't really want it. Thinking of another side who recently had a lot of success with a 352, Sheff United. They had Norwood at DM, a playmaker. Can do just about enough defensively but can set a tempo, find passes forward and is comfortable with his back to goal and in tight spaces. I'm not saying we need Norwood (although he's a good signing for Stockport), but we need someone of that ilk. Kane has to play there once fit for me. Playing at DM in front of a back 3 is a completely different job to playing there in a 433 or 4231. The defensive requirements are lessened. Hogg at his peak was a mobile hugely fit ball winning midfielder, positionally sound, but never had great ability on the ball. Win it, give it to Norwood/Clayton/Butterfield/Mooy/Billing/LOB (to dribble rather than pass) etc to do something with. Shield the back 4. A key role, but not so much in this setup. Totally agree. And especially when playing teams with a low block....you just don't need that security but you do need someone to be the play maker (Kane). Glennon has said a couple of times now that the other two midfielders need to get closer to Hogg. I'd turn that around and say he needs to get closer to the other two. Essentially makes passing through the lines easier....although his passing lets him down |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Aug 28, 2024 13:44:24 GMT 1
The way we're set up currently, the wing backs are generally really high up the pitch, exposing the slow centre halves. Fine when we've got the ball but we're very vulnerable to a turnover. Think they might have to be a bit more conservative in some matches.
The other huge structural issue is midfield. Massive gap between Hogg and the other two, who are ahead of the ball and waiting for a pass that Hogg can't make. Last night Hogg made so many passes to their man that meant we had about 6 players wrong side of the ball and Hogg out of position. We need someone in there to make that pass, or we change the system so that we have one ahead of the ball and the other two getting up and down the pitch generally staying goal side of the ball.
Last thing is that I think we need a target man - someone we can go longer to and make it stick - or someone really quick to play the channels. Basically someone to give us a strong chance of an outball that the midfield can then link up with.
The wing backs are the big success story so far - two great signings and we need them to stay fit.
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Post by Amigo on Aug 28, 2024 16:58:40 GMT 1
I think the system is fine but the players in it are the problem. The centre backs don't have any pace so that's why there are gaps at times, as well as that they aren't "footballers" so when they have possession they struggle. When teams are going to sit back and wait for us there's no point lumping it and we have to be patient and build, but because of the movement in front of them and their lack of ability on the ball they struggle. Hogg plays in a 10 yard square next to the centre backs (the "he's here, he's there" etc.. chant couldn't be more laughable) which leaves a big gap in midfield between him, Wiles and Evans. He doesn't show for the ball enough either which gives the centre backs no options and when they do find him they get it straight back. Evans and Wiles aren't defensively minded enough to drop back to help Hogg get moves started and only come to life in the final third. Wiles more so and as a side note his pass completion stats are actually way higher than I thought, 86% for a midfielder is pretty impressive. The first choice wing backs are for this level generally very good. Up front obviously we need another but with Koroma, Healey, Marshall, Radulovic, Ward, Harratt and Phillips to come back we also need to get rid of someone because that's 7 already. The first 4 I think are good options but 2 have regular niggles so definitely need another. Mobile CDM, pacey CB and striker are clearly what's needed but I can definitely see this team getting better as the season goes on. Do our centre backs really need pace? How many pacey centre backs play in the championship or L1? Genuine question as I'm not sure. I've always thought though you don't necessarily need pace if your positional play is good enough. I don't remember Bruce or Pallister being quick and they did ok? Is it just a case of the three at the back getting used to the new formation and learning not to get involved in a foot race with a pacey forward without having a yard or two head start? Same old reaction after conceding goals, blame the keeper or the defenders. Whilst they certainly looked poor it would help if the rest of the team did their bit, non existent midfield, zero hold up play from the forwards. It was interesting to see Harrat against L2 opposition, reminds me of his two poor loan stints. Ridiculous we used him in the champ and are still relying on him. 2 issues I think we have at the back are lack of pace and lack of ability on the ball. (Balker solved this but has obviously been incredibly unlucky). I think out of 3 centre backs one ideally needs pace yes, especially when the 2 wingbacks are so attacking minded. Ideally I think you'd have a bit of a clogger, a quick one, and one very good on the ball. We've pretty much got 3 cloggers at the moment. It's not an ideal world though so I'm not expecting that but from what I've seen in pretty much every game we could do with some pace back there. It's not a reaction to blame the defenders either, my main criticism at the moment is Hogg because he's not what we need there. Evans and Wiles are certainly not helping in terms of controlling midfield but the sitting player needs to be more mobile and better able to get moves started. It makes the whole team more proactive, at the moment we're stagnant at times. Leadership on the pitch is a massive issue as well. I'm not convinced we have a true leader on the pitch and we could do with at least 3. How many times in the last few years have we conceded one and to be blunt just bent over and taken what ever is coming? Agree on Harratt, at the very least he needs to go on loan for the season. |
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Post by Amigo on Aug 28, 2024 17:06:19 GMT 1
Apparently Lonwijk is pretty quick and good on the ball so we might have solved the problem!
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Post by thorntoncterrier on Aug 28, 2024 17:58:54 GMT 1
And it isn't Duff's system. Countless managers use the same system.
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Post by blueandwhitescarf on Aug 28, 2024 20:13:33 GMT 1
I'd alter the system so that we have 2 deep lying midfielders to give the current back 3, none of whom are amazing on the ball, more options to play short passes. Given the new kid is better on the ball we might not have to. But playing a few wall passes into midfield and moving them about a bit is surely going to open up more passing lanes.
I'd agree with previous posters that this is a role that Herbie would be made for, especially with a more defensive minded CDM beside him. Both Wiles and Evans look weak defensively and so it would suit them both to be vying for a role that is more like a No 10. If we had 1 striker drop in a bit we could create the 'box midfield' that all the tactic gurus seem to love these days and hopefully be able to pass the ball to each other better than we did against Walsall which wouldn't be hard.
It'd also suit Joe Taylor to partner Herbie rather than expect him to slot into that isolated #6 role that we currently have. Clearly the Wing Backs have been some of our better players so far this year and with more stability in the middle they'd surely have more confidence to bomb forward which seems to be their main strengths. It's basically the WM formation from football's yesteryears. 3-5-2 out of possession but when we have the ball.
-------------Nicholls---------------
---Lonwijk----Helik----Balker/Spencer
--------Taylor------Kane-----------
-----Evans/Wiles-----Ward/Koroma----
Sorensen------Healey---------Miller
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Post by pterrier on Aug 29, 2024 9:24:07 GMT 1
And it isn't Duff's system. Countless managers use the same system. Well done Sherlock! I don’t think any of us think we are the only team to play a 3-5-2! As mentioned, it’s incredibly similar to Moore’s in terms of the zones and gaps between the players as well. It’s simply entitled Duff’s system because he’s our manager and we are talking about our team |
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Post by rockwall on Aug 29, 2024 9:30:31 GMT 1
I'd alter the system so that we have 2 deep lying midfielders to give the current back 3, none of whom are amazing on the ball, more options to play short passes. Given the new kid is better on the ball we might not have to. But playing a few wall passes into midfield and moving them about a bit is surely going to open up more passing lanes. I'd agree with previous posters that this is a role that Herbie would be made for, especially with a more defensive minded CDM beside him. Both Wiles and Evans look weak defensively and so it would suit them both to be vying for a role that is more like a No 10. If we had 1 striker drop in a bit we could create the 'box midfield' that all the tactic gurus seem to love these days and hopefully be able to pass the ball to each other better than we did against Walsall which wouldn't be hard. It'd also suit Joe Taylor to partner Herbie rather than expect him to slot into that isolated #6 role that we currently have. Clearly the Wing Backs have been some of our better players so far this year and with more stability in the middle they'd surely have more confidence to bomb forward which seems to be their main strengths. It's basically the WM formation from football's yesteryears. 3-5-2 out of possession but when we have the ball. -------------Nicholls--------------- ---Lonwijk----Helik----Balker/Spencer --------Taylor------Kane----------- -----Evans/Wiles-----Ward/Koroma---- Sorensen------Healey---------Miller Taylor in with Kane? We haven't even signed him yet. And he's a striker. |
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Post by pterrier on Aug 31, 2024 19:25:30 GMT 1
He needs a plan b in games and doesn’t seemingly have one. Last few opponents have sussed us out and we don’t adapt or change shape.
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Post by soapystevens on Aug 31, 2024 19:35:20 GMT 1
He needs a plan b in games and doesn’t seemingly have one. Last few opponents have sussed us out and we don’t adapt or change shape. First game of the season and P'boro didn't know what to expect but again they missed a hatful of chances. The system we play is so simple to counter act and so it has proved in our last 3/4 games. Some players do not seem physically capable against physically strong sides, we are getting bullied far to easily and some players don't seem to have the fight. |
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on Aug 31, 2024 19:38:31 GMT 1
There's something about it that doesn't quite work. We find it hard to pass through the lines successfully yet the opposition seem to get in behind us with ease from either a hoof over the top or a short passage of one touch football.
I think Barnsley had the same issue when he went there and after about 1/3rd of the season it suddenly clicked. Swansea didn't give him long enough to see if the same thing happened there
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Post by pterrier on Aug 31, 2024 19:40:57 GMT 1
There's something about it that doesn't quite work. We find it hard to pass through the lines successfully yet the opposition seem to get in behind us with ease from either a hoof over the top or a short passage of one touch football. I think Barnsley had the same issue when he went there and after about 1/3rd of the season it suddenly clicked. Swansea didn't give him long enough to see if the same thing happened there Fingers crossed it does, it’s just alarming how there isn’t a plan b in games. |
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