Romance of the Cup?

[runner76]

Seen a few comments on other threads, thought I’d start one…..AND A POLL!!!!

(Well, it’s Friday….)

Mainly with the FA Cup but guess it’s any cup, is the romance dead? Was it ever there or is it just rose tinted glasses?

I do often hear how ‘it was different before the Premier League’…but in terms of FA Cup, at least, it hasn’t really changed.

The percentage of non-top division clubs reaching the FA Cup final has remained relatively similar before and after the Premier League, with both periods seeing around 6-8% of finalists coming from non-top division teams.

To be fair, most cups are like mixing boxers from different weights and expecting not to see the heavyweight win……

[goodbet]

A little romance left in the early rounds but the FA cup in particular has been devalued by the FA.

[m62terrier]

As a Town fan it's really hard to get excited about the cups, just because our record in them over the past half a century is awful. We haven't reached the QF of either major cup competition since 1971-72.

For context, since 1971-72, 79 other teams have reached the QF of either cup, including 3 who now aren't even in the EFL (Oldham, Bury and Chester).

Saying that, we aren't as bad as Preston who haven't reached a QF since 1965-66. The only other teams at our level or above who haven't reached a QF since 1972 are Crawley, Northampton and Stevenage.

Overall I think the FA Cup lost its magic as the Premier League took over in the mid 90's. It also doesn't help when TV companies put all PL matches on TV for 3rd/4th round. We don't want to see Man City v West Ham or Man Utd v Bournemouth again, its dull! There should be a rule that only 1 all PL match can be shown in those early rounds.

I think at some point the League Cup will either be scrapped or scaled back to just EFL clubs and maybe those PL clubs not in Europe.

[overtonterrierspirit]

For people old enough to remember the Cup from decades ago there is no question that the romance has virtually disappeared now.
Only the weekly listening of the new music charts could match the excitement of listening to the cup draw.
The euphoria of watching Ronnie Radford's winner for Hereford v Newcastle, Ian Porterfield's volley for Sunderland v Leeds and of course, our very own 4-2 victory in the 5th Round v West Ham.
Cold January's were warmed up by the FA Cup 3rd Round.
I agree that the dominance of the "Big Clubs" has always been the same - but in years gone by, these clubs did not field weakened teams in the early rounds.
No point in fans of a lower league club feeling euphoric when they draw Man Utd at home anymore because they only see a shadow of the normal team.
Cup Final day was special, starting at 11am and lasting all day with millions watching.
There will always be cup "shocks" but occur less frequently and now, just about everybody decides to "rest" players.
Obviously, money has changed the game and the priorities of football clubs, to the detriment of the game and the fans.

[Bubbles]

Sept 6, 2024 8:51:51 GMT 1 runner76 said:

Seen a few comments on other threads, thought I’d start one…..AND A POLL!!!!

(Well, it’s Friday….)

Mainly with the FA Cup but guess it’s any cup, is the romance dead? Was it ever there or is it just rose tinted glasses?

I do often hear how ‘it was different before the Premier League’…but in terms of FA Cup, at least, it hasn’t really changed.

The percentage of non-top division clubs reaching the FA Cup final has remained relatively similar before and after the Premier League, with both periods seeing around 6-8% of finalists coming from non-top division teams.

To be fair, most cups are like mixing boxers from different weights and expecting not to see the heavyweight win……

" It hasn't really changed?"

Between Man.United not bothering one year and having the final itself on at 5pm on a full Premier league fixture day....I'd say it has changed a lot.

For the worse.

I think that the 2018 5th round tie between Town and Manchester United drawing a crowd of 17k means it certainly isn't what it was.

[johnnyx]

You only have to look at the crowds in the 70's to see how the cup was valued.
The biggest crowds of the season were always in the FA Cup
The first year i started going 1970/71 we played Stoke City in a 3rd round replay and the crowd was over 40,000.
Even though we were in the First Division and played the top clubs our league average was only mid 20.000's

[incognito]

Personally speaking, our sojourn to the Prem extinguished a lot of the remaining 'magic' (and not limited to the FA Cup).

My reaction to the last three big draws:

2016/17 - Manchester City - Excitement
2017/18 - Manchester United - Indifference
2023/24 - Manchester City - Dread

[iangreaves]

Difficult to tell. It's hard to remember the last time we had a run in the cup.

[Marshleeds]

Sept 6, 2024 10:32:35 GMT 1 overtonterrierspirit said:

For people old enough to remember the Cup from decades ago there is no question that the romance has virtually disappeared now.
Only the weekly listening of the new music charts could match the excitement of listening to the cup draw.
The euphoria of watching Ronnie Radford's winner for Hereford v Newcastle, Ian Porterfield's volley for Sunderland v Leeds and of course, our very own 4-2 victory in the 5th Round v West Ham.
Cold January's were warmed up by the FA Cup 3rd Round.
I agree that the dominance of the "Big Clubs" has always been the same - but in years gone by, these clubs did not field weakened teams in the early rounds.
No point in fans of a lower league club feeling euphoric when they draw Man Utd at home anymore because they only see a shadow of the normal team.
Cup Final day was special, starting at 11am and lasting all day with millions watching.
There will always be cup "shocks" but occur less frequently and now, just about everybody decides to "rest" players.
Obviously, money has changed the game and the priorities of football clubs, to the detriment of the game and the fans.

Agree with all of this and remember obscure Non League Teams like Blyth Spartans reaching the 5th Round of the FA Cup in 1977-78 beating Stoke City on the way.

Resplendent in their Green & White Stripes recreated many a Subbuteo Game involving them on My Parents Dining Room Floor. Marvellous.

[runner76]

Sept 6, 2024 10:51:52 GMT 1 Bubbles said:

Sept 6, 2024 8:51:51 GMT 1 runner76 said:

Seen a few comments on other threads, thought I’d start one…..AND A POLL!!!!

(Well, it’s Friday….)

Mainly with the FA Cup but guess it’s any cup, is the romance dead? Was it ever there or is it just rose tinted glasses?

I do often hear how ‘it was different before the Premier League’…but in terms of FA Cup, at least, it hasn’t really changed.

The percentage of non-top division clubs reaching the FA Cup final has remained relatively similar before and after the Premier League, with both periods seeing around 6-8% of finalists coming from non-top division teams.

To be fair, most cups are like mixing boxers from different weights and expecting not to see the heavyweight win……

" It hasn't really changed?"

Between Man.United not bothering one year and having the final itself on at 5pm on a full Premier league fixture day....I'd say it has changed a lot.

For the worse.

I think that the 2018 5th round tie between Town and Manchester United drawing a crowd of 17k means it certainly isn't what it was.

I mean it hasn’t changed in terms of the end result……but in terms of the whole thing, I’m interested to know folks thoughts!

Even though the end result is pretty unchanged, maybe the feeling that ‘we might just…….’ has changed, due to the gulf in the top tier….

[galpharm2400]

Weekend off from the league, chance to play à bit, give it a go..
Since there has been a top 6 to play for the league has been far and away the biggest interest for more and more clubs outside the premier league. The top 4 in the premier winning European champions entry also devalues for them the FA cup..
More 'prizes' in the league to go for has lowered the fa cups magic???

[jakeg]

The romance of the FA Cup especially has definitely changed in the last 30 years. A lot is probably to do with the increasing prifileration of football on TV...when I was young the only live tv football was the final and internationals.

For Huddersfield I think we are sometimes now in that group of clubs for which its difficult to see the magic. Yes that partly to do with our general rubbishness at cup games but also we are in the kind of 'in between' category.

Prem teams have a realistic prospect of winning something. Non league and league 2 get much needed revenue and chance to play a big fish. For us in that 'lower middle championship/top end league one' group it doesn't really feel like either.....

[digs]

The romance ended when the games stopped being played only at 3pm saturdays,plus when Wembley started as a semi final venue,the FA Cup was magical as a child 50 years ago,semi finals at Hillsbro, Villa Park ect made the atmosphere electric

[Amigo]

I think a big part of the problem is we've played everyone now, very recently. There's no new grounds to go to, we've seen top players so the "magic" of drawing a big side has gone.
I'd be more excited about us drawing a non league side than a Premier league side but I think IF (massive IF for us!) we did get to the 3rd round and drew one of the big big sides I think there would be a bit of excitement.

Another problem is clubs don't always put their best players out, especially for the league cup so if the clubs aren't going to take it seriously why should the fans.

Another problem is the spiralling cost of football, we've been very lucky so far in terms of season ticket prices but it all adds up.

The Auto Bristol Street Painters Trophy has been completely devalued in my opinion with under 21 teams being allowed in it. Should be kept to the bottom 2 leagues and a straight knockout not messing about with groups.

The League is so important now because of the money involved from TV the higher you go that clubs aren't taking the cups as seriously which means the fans aren't.

[benhomly]

Sept 6, 2024 13:14:25 GMT 1 Amigo said:

I think a big part of the problem is we've played everyone now, very recently. There's no new grounds to go to, we've seen top players so the "magic" of drawing a big side has gone.
I'd be more excited about us drawing a non league side than a Premier league side but I think IF (massive IF for us!) we did get to the 3rd round and drew one of the big big sides I think there would be a bit of excitement.

Another problem is clubs don't always put their best players out, especially for the league cup so if the clubs aren't going to take it seriously why should the fans.

Another problem is the spiralling cost of football, we've been very lucky so far in terms of season ticket prices but it all adds up.

The Auto Bristol Street Painters Trophy has been completely devalued in my opinion with under 21 teams being allowed in it. Should be kept to the bottom 2 leagues and a straight knockout not messing about with groups.

The League is so important now because of the money involved from TV the higher you go that clubs aren't taking the cups as seriously which means the fans aren't.

Would love to be drawn away at Crawley, Newport, Barrow, Salford or Bromley. Couldn't care less about anywhere else.

[irverino]

The 'injury prone' players Cartwright has signed are barely fit enough to play any league games......Cup ties are out of the question, pity because I do like a good cup run.

[katiemterrier27]

It's only tin pot cup(s), there you go years of history, tears and triumph dismissed in three little words. Reflects the modern money and politics driven bread and circuses approach to football. No history no tradition, no pride no nothing but a cash cow for the media, players and agents while the plebs can like it or lump it.

[sabailand]

All a bit meh tbh now, for those in the prem its premier league or bust, you're either battling to gain a european place or battling to stay in rhe money, the cup to many is an unwanted distraction.
Although there are probably reasons why they dont and i've said it before, but it would be better if the winners qualified for a CL place, at least they would have won a trophy unlike the Runners up and also rans that gain CL entry now, clubs would definitely take it serious then.

[wildbillthetownfan]

Television has taken away a lot of the romance of the cup but not all of it. When i was a kid in the 60's a lot of people did not have a television so the only way you could see the big clubs was by going to the game/s. One of my fist ever games was 1966/67 season when i was 8 yrs old and the 3rd round of the F A Cup at home was a against the glamourous Chelsea a massive club even then but Town were a big club but in the old second division. I remember the build up to the game it was immense and 36,000 turned out for a 3rd round game, sadly Town lost 2-1 but the fans were still waving their rattles and most people had a rosette on.
If i remember rightly, back then Match Of The Day only showed one game but it was probably more for the F A Cup, but it was the only chance to see the big big guns hence the big crowds, now modern technology being what it is you can see it all from the luxury of your arm chair, but give me the good old days any time.

[Tinpot]

FA Cup Final day used to be a huge event. The semis were also huge. Think back to the first FA Cup Finals you watched. If you're old enough, you can probably remember Coventry beating Spurs, Wimbledon beating Liverpool, the Spurs v Forest one where Gaza made headlines for both the right and the wrong reasons. Cantona lighting up an otherwise fairly drab final... etc.

Now? I can't be bothered to watch at all. Once HTFC are knocked out I lose interest completely. Which means my interest usually ends after our first tie.

[rockwall]

Personally, the romance is dying. The gap between the PL is growing and there aren't as many shocks anymore.

You get shocks with Championship losing to L2 or below, but PL teams being beaten by L1 or below and even bottom end Championship clubs is becoming less.

[wildbillthetownfan]

It was sometime in the 60's Town got drawn away at Tranmere and my brother went. The ground was packed apparently and fans were climbing over the wall and on to the top of the stands to watch the game, can you imagine that now!! and Town lost and it was big news that little Tranmere had beating Huddersfield Town.

[mosher]

Sept 6, 2024 14:43:17 GMT 1 sabailand said:

All a bit meh tbh now, for those in the prem its premier league or bust, you're either battling to gain a european place or battling to stay in rhe money, the cup to many is an unwanted distraction.
Although there are probably reasons why they dont and i've said it before, but it would be better if the winners qualified for a CL palce, at least they would have won a trophy unlike the Runers up and also rans that gain CL entry now, clubs would definitely take it serious then.

Would never have happened because the rest of Europe never valued their cup competitions as much as we did, but when they first announced the restructuring of the European Cup to make the CL I said it should be the 3 cup winners (FA Cup, FL Cup and League) that qualify for the Champions League.

At least all 3 would actually be champions of something.

Someone a while ago though posted something explaining that Champions League didn't mean the champions of each league but something entirely different, although I can't remember the reasoning.

[mosher]

Sept 6, 2024 15:00:34 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

FA Cup Final day used to be a huge event. The semis were also huge. Think back to the first FA Cup Finals you watched. If you're old enough, you can probably remember Coventry beating Spurs, Wimbledon beating Liverpool, the Spurs v Forest one where Gaza made headlines for both the right and the wrong reasons. Cantona lighting up an otherwise fairly drab final... etc.

Now? I can't be bothered to watch at all. Once HTFC are knocked out I lose interest completely. Which means my interest usually ends after our first tie.

I don't remember that much trouble in Palestine back then?

Sorry 

[drayltonboy (independent)]

All a con created by the media, who, on the one hand, want a giant killing in earlier rounds, but dread a, say, Wolves v Southampton Final.

Also, of the 32 third round games, only about 6 will be of general interest. Games between 2 teams in the same division are only of interest to fans of the respective teams.

[goodbet]

The romance has gone out of football because of the greedy league and how everything is about the top six and the rest of football can go and sing for the crumbs.

[runner76]

Sept 6, 2024 15:14:05 GMT 1 mosher said:

Sept 6, 2024 14:43:17 GMT 1 sabailand said:

All a bit meh tbh now, for those in the prem its premier league or bust, you're either battling to gain a european place or battling to stay in rhe money, the cup to many is an unwanted distraction.
Although there are probably reasons why they dont and i've said it before, but it would be better if the winners qualified for a CL palce, at least they would have won a trophy unlike the Runers up and also rans that gain CL entry now, clubs would definitely take it serious then.

Would never have happened because the rest of Europe never valued their cup competitions as much as we did, but when they first announced the restructuring of the European Cup to make the CL I said it should be the 3 cup winners (FA Cup, FL Cup and League) that qualify for the Champions League.

At least all 3 would actually be champions of something.

Someone a while ago though posted something explaining that Champions League didn't mean the champions of each league but something entirely different, although I can't remember the reasoning.

Shouldn’t really be called the Champions League

[sabailand]

Sept 6, 2024 15:14:05 GMT 1 mosher said:

Sept 6, 2024 14:43:17 GMT 1 sabailand said:

All a bit meh tbh now, for those in the prem its premier league or bust, you're either battling to gain a european place or battling to stay in rhe money, the cup to many is an unwanted distraction.
Although there are probably reasons why they dont and i've said it before, but it would be better if the winners qualified for a CL palce, at least they would have won a trophy unlike the Runers up and also rans that gain CL entry now, clubs would definitely take it serious then.

Would never have happened because the rest of Europe never valued their cup competitions as much as we did, but when they first announced the restructuring of the European Cup to make the CL I said it should be the 3 cup winners (FA Cup, FL Cup and League) that qualify for the Champions League.

At least all 3 would actually be champions of something.

Someone a while ago though posted something explaining that the champions league didn't mean the champions of each league but something, entirely different although I can't remember the reasoning.

Yes all very contrived just to placate the big European clubs, UEFA are as corrupt and underhand as FIFA if you ask me.

[townarentbest]

Sept 6, 2024 15:14:05 GMT 1 mosher said:

Sept 6, 2024 14:43:17 GMT 1 sabailand said:

All a bit meh tbh now, for those in the prem its premier league or bust, you're either battling to gain a european place or battling to stay in rhe money, the cup to many is an unwanted distraction.
Although there are probably reasons why they dont and i've said it before, but it would be better if the winners qualified for a CL palce, at least they would have won a trophy unlike the Runers up and also rans that gain CL entry now, clubs would definitely take it serious then.

Would never have happened because the rest of Europe never valued their cup competitions as much as we did, but when they first announced the restructuring of the European Cup to make the CL I said it should be the 3 cup winners (FA Cup, FL Cup and League) that qualify for the Champions League.

At least all 3 would actually be champions of something.

Someone a while ago though posted something explaining that Champions League didn't mean the champions of each league but something entirely different, although I can't remember the reasoning.

Isn't it simply a League to determine the UEFA Champions? Ie the UEFA Champions League?

I think its actually the word "league" that confuses people rather than "champions", the cup awarded at the end is the European Champion Clubs' Cup, if the entire tournament was known as the "European Champion Clubs' Cup", or the European Champions Cup, nobody would bat an eyelid about non national champion clubs entering.

[runner76]

Sept 7, 2024 6:27:38 GMT 1 townarentbest said:

Sept 6, 2024 15:14:05 GMT 1 mosher said:

Would never have happened because the rest of Europe never valued their cup competitions as much as we did, but when they first announced the restructuring of the European Cup to make the CL I said it should be the 3 cup winners (FA Cup, FL Cup and League) that qualify for the Champions League.

At least all 3 would actually be champions of something.

Someone a while ago though posted something explaining that Champions League didn't mean the champions of each league but something entirely different, although I can't remember the reasoning.

Isn't it simply a League to determine the UEFA Champions? Ie the UEFA Champions League?

I think its actually the word "league" that confuses people rather than "champions", the cup awarded at the end is the European Champion Clubs' Cup, if the entire tournament was known as the "European Champion Clubs' Cup", or the European Champions Cup, nobody would bat an eyelid about non national champion clubs entering.

So it should just be called the UEFA Super League or something.