Individual and Collective Mentality

[joek]

Bit of a random post but I wonder how/if it’s possible to quantify/assess both individual and collective mentality of football players? Duff has talked about it a lot, but is it just a vague notion of something, or can it be quantified do you think? Is personality profiling during the transfer process a thing?

I ask only because that performance last night was appalling, but for me and the majority on here I reckon, not at all unexpected.

Would Warnock’s 1995 team have performed like that across 90 minutes? Would Wagner’s 2017 team? Corberan in 2022?

Is at as easy as just trying to sign ‘leaders’ as per summer 2016, or is there more to it than that? What did Warnock do in 2023 to revitalise that group of players? Would it have been possible to maintain that uplift in performance even if he hadn’t been sacked?

I have absolutely no faith in this group of players to be able to put in the types of performance in really high-stakes games that we will need to be successful.

We had a great team in 2009/2010 (full of big characters) that had lost to Millwall in the tunnel before the second leg of the play-offs. We didn’t get a kick that night. Dread to think what this lot would do if the pressure is really on later in the season.

[tottz]

Bravery in football is often misrepresented as thundering into tackles and being up for the fight. I think a better indicator of bravery is getting your foot on the ball and trying to influence things when everything is against you. That's just my experience from playing and coaching.

How I judge Town's players is that they do neither of those things. They actually hide when the going gets tough, pass the buck. Kane maybe the only one last night doing the latter? Rest a shambles. They all do it consistently too so it's not a one off.

[brighousebandbred]

Nov 2, 2024 10:41:10 GMT 1 tottz said:

Bravery in football is often misrepresented as thundering into tackles and being up for the fight. I think a better indicator of bravery is getting your foot on the ball and trying to influence things when everything is against you. That's just my experience from playing and coaching.

How I judge Town's players is that they do neither of those things. They actually hide when the going gets tough, pass the buck. Kane maybe the only one last night doing the latter? Rest a shambles. They all do it consistently too so it's not a one off.

Great post and sums this team up , when behind we have so many players that just want to not make a mistake, taking too many touches or just going backwards instead of turning when in space , no courage or simply not enough about them as individuals. I’m going to Crawley but feel so disappointed and disheartened by this team , felt the pain last night and it made me question what games I choose to watch this team. Simply not even close to being good enough or brave enough . Really disappointing.

[nickhtafc82]

Nov 2, 2024 10:41:10 GMT 1 tottz said:

Bravery in football is often misrepresented as thundering into tackles and being up for the fight. I think a better indicator of bravery is getting your foot on the ball and trying to influence things when everything is against you. That's just my experience from playing and coaching.

How I judge Town's players is that they do neither of those things. They actually hide when the going gets tough, pass the buck. Kane maybe the only one last night doing the latter? Rest a shambles. They all do it consistently too so it's not a one off.

Lonwijk was trying to get us ticking in the first half, showed some bravery, but nothing in the second.

Kasumu had his worst game in a long time. Mistake after mistake. Looked lost.

[drewden]

Nov 2, 2024 10:41:10 GMT 1 tottz said:

Bravery in football is often misrepresented as thundering into tackles and being up for the fight. I think a better indicator of bravery is getting your foot on the ball and trying to influence things when everything is against you. That's just my experience from playing and coaching.

How I judge Town's players is that they do neither of those things. They actually hide when the going gets tough, pass the buck. Kane maybe the only one last night doing the latter? Rest a shambles. They all do it consistently too so it's not a one off.

Great post, we lack leaders on the pitch, which evaluates to the same thing, watching 10 individual players on the pitch becomes hard work, with no direction.

[runner76]

We lack leaders….yet haven’t we got some kind of leadership thing going on? It’s daft

[joek]

Nov 2, 2024 11:48:41 GMT 1 runner76 said:

We lack leaders….yet haven’t we got some kind of leadership thing going on? It’s daft

Can you ‘create’ leaders in a footballing sense though, or is it something that you either have or don’t have?

[joek]

Steven Chicken articulately sums up what I was trying to say about this team in his reflections this morning:

‘The worries presented by this game are that the soft, eminently beatable, self-destructive streak in this side has not in fact been banished by their recent upturn in form, and could re-emerge again at at any moment’’

‘Town turned up at a minnow and spinelessly allowed them to dictate the terms under which the game was played.’

‘Even if they pick up their league form…it will be difficult to fully trust that another Tamworth isn’t waiting just around the corner.’

Highly recommend a subscription if you have £5 a month. Hope I’ve not over-quoted his work here.

[drewden]

Nov 2, 2024 12:06:23 GMT 1 joek said:

Nov 2, 2024 11:48:41 GMT 1 runner76 said:

We lack leaders….yet haven’t we got some kind of leadership thing going on? It’s daft

Can you ‘create’ leaders in a footballing sense though, or is it something that you either have or don’t have?

A leader is a person who gets pissed off when the chips are down, and fights for success, he inspires others to come on his journey to get out of a negative black hole, I am afraid we have none, the whole team goes into their shell and negative mind set, which in turn causes awful decisions and awful football to watch.

[royrace]

Mentality comes from the coach doesn't it? Not easy, that's why the likes of Warnock are so successful. It's the coaches job to ensure they go out on the pitch with confidence and desire. Buck stops with the coach imo. I'd imagine it's the hardest part of the job and very difficult to quantify but the likes of Warnock would never allow last night to happen.

[Ox Terrier]

We’re so quick to pass backwards and fanny around with the ball, giving the opposition, any opposition, the opportunity to reset. We've then got to get through 11 players and with little creativity at the best of times, it’s a big ask. We’ve been like this for years and it seems a constant with most managers. Quick! Pass it back. Phew we’ve retained the ball. Now what?!

*I accept this post doesn’t have anything to do with mental attitude 🤷‍♂️

[bogart]

Keep hearing we need leaders and in the next breath Hogg gets mentioned. Is he a leader? Is he hell, he leads by bollocking others all the time, all to obviously, without looking in the mirror.

[Made In Yorkshire]

Nov 2, 2024 12:06:23 GMT 1 joek said:

Nov 2, 2024 11:48:41 GMT 1 runner76 said:

We lack leaders….yet haven’t we got some kind of leadership thing going on? It’s daft

Can you ‘create’ leaders in a footballing sense though, or is it something that you either have or don’t have?

I think a true leader is someone who will see a vacancy of that role in a team and grasp the opportunity.
If no individual takes that on then like you can buy a goalkeeper or a centre forward, you can also buy a player with that leadership quality.

[overtonterrierspirit]

My definition and examples of leaders at Town are Nicholls and previously, Conor Coady.
I believe we miss Nicholls - watch him, he’s constantly organising and encouraging his team mates , just what a leader on the pitch should do.

Coady was the most vocal Town player I’ve ever seen. I couldn’t believe how loud he was, constantly geeing up his team mates.

Currently we have no one in the team doing this.

[Ginger Ogre]

Nov 2, 2024 12:40:46 GMT 1 Ox Terrier said:

We’re so quick to pass backwards and fanny around with the ball, giving the opposition, any opposition, the opportunity to reset. We've then got to get through 11 players and with little creativity at the best of times, it’s a big ask. We’ve been like this for years and it seems a constant with most managers. Quick! Pass it back. Phew we’ve retained the ball. Now what?!

*I accept this post doesn’t have anything to do with mental attitude 🤷‍♂️

I think you are wrong, your post sums up the mentality to a tee.

Players are scared. They dont take risks in fear of making an error so they take the easy option which is generally a 5 yard pass backwards or sideways to someone and let them deal with it.

Bar Marshall there is little movement off the ball. Nobody actively seeks it or wants to feet in tight areas which leads into the backwards ball or when that has gone on long enough the inevitable diagonal long punt up field as alst resort.

Our play is so slow. So predictable. So boring. Make no wonder fans aren't turning up and the atmosphere is so poor from those that do. Its all incredibly dull.

For whatever reason this sqaud is till suffering from a massive lack of confidence and Duff, although talking about it a lot has done very little to address the issue and change the mentality of what is a mentally fragile group of players.

[Made In Yorkshire]

Nov 2, 2024 13:05:30 GMT 1 overtonterrierspirit said:

My definition and examples of leaders at Town are Nicholls and previously, Conor Coady.
I believe we miss Nicholls - watch him, he’s constantly organising and encouraging his team mates , just what a leader on the pitch should do.

Coady was the most vocal Town player I’ve ever seen. I couldn’t believe how loud he was, constantly geeing up his team mates.

Currently we have no one in the team doing this.

Agree 100% about Nicholls. He (a goalkeeper) has the benefit of seeing everything and everyone in front of him. He should have been made captain ages ago IMHO.

[tottz]

Without wanting to sound overly reactive, think the mentality issue could see us stay in League One this season. It's got to get to a point where those with a weak mentality are the minority in the squad and it doesn't feel like we're close to that now.

Be good to see a Wagner style approach of going after captains and leaders in the dressing room.

Alternatively do we just employ David Goggins as a consultant for the rest of th season!?

[cheesyhtfc]

When I think of leaders on a football pitch I tend to think of players who, when the team is struggling, try to grab the game by the scruff of its neck and galvanise the team by their actions - think Beckham v Greece in 2001, as the most obvious example. You're looking for someone to take responsibility for lighting a spark that others on the team can rally behind - the moment where, when you look back on it, the momentum shifted. If you can get 2/3 of those in your team, then you have the makings of a successful season.

We just don't have anyone who's going to put in a crunching tackle, or drive the ball forward 40 yards, or have a long range shot that cannons off the bar, or even just get in the opposition face and start some aggro. The mentality of the team was summed up for me last night by (1) Wiles' free kick towards the end - if he wasn't willing to have a shot, someone should have shoved him off it and had a pop themselves - and (2) our failure to deal with the long throws - where was the commanding CB or GK who made it their mission to win the ball every time?

The one shining light for me was Iorpenda, who is still very raw but had a few moments of real drive - if he develops in the right way, he could be a real gem. But there are too many players in their comfort zone, going through the motions and content with taking the easy option every time.

I also think the inability of many of our players to direct free headers to a Town player, or play good quality 5/10 yard passes consistently, is the sign of poor mentality and lack of discipline in the team rather than a lack of ability - it's particularly concerning when it's the senior members of the team who are doing it. When you hear interviews with 90s Man Utd and Liverpool players, they always talk about there being a self-regulating system of quality control - you either hit the standards necessary every day (in training and in matches), or you won't last long. Who in our squad is setting those standards, or holding those who don't meet them to account? I think we all know the answer to that. Until we get players in who will hit those standards, and demand the same from their teammates, not much will change.

[nickhtafc82]

Imagine this lot in the play offs?! It would be us vs Millwall under LC all over again.

What annoys me so much, is the standard of this league is so poor, that if we only played at 80%-85% of our capabilities, but every week, consistently, I think we'd bag second.

[sabailand]

Too much deep thinking going on i think, we were rubbish last night and were the victims of a cup upset, they happen every season for what its worth.
We'll get back on track and have an interest in the playoff places for the rest of the season i reckon, over analysing stuff wont change a thing only good results do that, the players know they didnt perform and so does the manager, disappointing but nothing in the wider scale of things.

[philstarbuckscoffee]

Great thread joek

Slightly unrelated to the overall theme but I’d have a lot more sympathy for this team if in the closing stages if some of them put in a few big challenges and looked like they cared/were upset/wanted to give Tamworth a bit back.

Seeing out the closing few minutes with a typical whimper and acceptance just rubs salt in the wounds.

This lack of fight is most evident in Bojan, who hardly won any aerial duals, 50/50s last night, is passive at best and is the biggest wet lettuce I’ve seen. I want him to do well but he is quickly entering the realms of Pritchard and Diakhaby in my mind. Need not worry as he will probably be out with his customary cold that he gets every other week, the coward, so won’t have to watch him meekly going about his duties in the next game.

[tepidterrier]

Nov 2, 2024 13:41:00 GMT 1 tottz said:

Without wanting to sound overly reactive, think the mentality issue could see us stay in League One this season. It's got to get to a point where those with a weak mentality are the minority in the squad and it doesn't feel like we're close to that now.

Be good to see a Wagner style approach of going after captains and leaders in the dressing room.

Alternatively do we just employ David Goggins as a consultant for the rest of th season!?

We've lost 8 games and drawn 1 this season, and have yet to score an equalising goal in any game, let alone come from behind to lead. I think our only chance of going up this season is if we get a good enough run together to go up automatic, which I can't see happening. The team are utterly gutless when push comes to shove, which would see us fold in a playoff situation.

[shawsie]

Nov 2, 2024 14:20:02 GMT 1 sabailand said:

Too much deep thinking going on i think, we were rubbish last night and were the victims of a cup upset, they happen every season for what its worth.
We'll get back on track and have an interest in the playoff places for the rest of the season i reckon, over analysing stuff wont change a thing only good results do that, the players know they didnt perform and so does the manager, disappointing but nothing in the wider scale of things.

Nothing in the wider scale of things.....
Jesus wept when does this acceptance of mediocrity stop ?!
We've lost to 2 league 2 teams and a part time non league side inside 3 bloody months!!!!

[richhtfc]

We have a big problem with desire I think, not enough winners and too many senior players seeing out their careers with nothing to prove and no motivation. Lees, Hogg, Ward etc etc are good pros but what exactly are they aiming to achieve with Town other than getting paid?

Likewise our younger players don’t seem as hungry as they should be or are loaners (why should they care about Town). We sold the ‘stepping stone’ rhetoric to players for that long that it’s ingrained in the club. We reached the promised land and after a plucky first season it was disastrous leaving many of us looking forward to the championship.

What exactly is the ambition of the club? Are they selling it to the players. We don’t look anywhere near hungry enough for success to me.

[goodbet]

Nov 2, 2024 14:20:02 GMT 1 sabailand said:

Too much deep thinking going on i think, we were rubbish last night and were the victims of a cup upset, they happen every season for what its worth.
We'll get back on track and have an interest in the playoff places for the rest of the season i reckon, over analysing stuff wont change a thing only good results do that, the players know they didnt perform and so does the manager, disappointing but nothing in the wider scale of things.

As said elsewhere by a journalist, last night was not a one off, we have seen similar more than once this season.
We have been on a downward spiral for quite a number of years, getting back into the Championship is not an improvement it will be getting us back to where the new owner started.
Maybe we start to see us improve after that.

[mosher]

Nov 2, 2024 12:35:15 GMT 1 royrace said:

Mentality comes from the coach doesn't it? Not easy, that's why the likes of Warnock are so successful. It's the coaches job to ensure they go out on the pitch with confidence and desire. Buck stops with the coach imo. I'd imagine it's the hardest part of the job and very difficult to quantify but the likes of Warnock would never allow last night to happen.

While I agree in the main with your post, even coaches/managers like Colin have bad days** - Barnet at home for one and there were one or two other games in his first season that were nearly as bad as Friday, performance-wise.

** I'm not saying Friday was "just a bad day", it was bloody diabolical, I'm just responding to that bold line.

[rougeboy31]

Not enough money is put into the psychological side of football. A good mind is half the battle. Carlos and Wagner teams prove that. Look at spurs for example, doesn’t matter what players you have - if you’re always expected to bottle it it will have an impact.

[iangreaves]

Nov 2, 2024 12:35:15 GMT 1 royrace said:

Mentality comes from the coach doesn't it? Not easy, that's why the likes of Warnock are so successful. It's the coaches job to ensure they go out on the pitch with confidence and desire. Buck stops with the coach imo. I'd imagine it's the hardest part of the job and very difficult to quantify but the likes of Warnock would never allow last night to happen.

Exactly this. Warnock took this group of players and pulled off a miracle escape.

[overtonterrierspirit]

Nov 3, 2024 15:35:17 GMT 1 rougeboy31 said:

Not enough money is put into the psychological side of football. A good mind is half the battle. Carlos and Wagner teams prove that. Look at spurs for example, doesn’t matter what players you have - if you’re always expected to bottle it it will have an impact.

Wagner running the length of the pitch to dive on top of his players v L***s.
That’s togetherness and collective mentality.

[turbo2]

Nov 2, 2024 12:40:46 GMT 1 Ox Terrier said:

We’re so quick to pass backwards and fanny around with the ball, giving the opposition, any opposition, the opportunity to reset. We've then got to get through 11 players and with little creativity at the best of times, it’s a big ask. We’ve been like this for years and it seems a constant with most managers. Quick! Pass it back. Phew we’ve retained the ball. Now what?!

*I accept this post doesn’t have anything to do with mental attitude 🤷‍♂️

That’s almost word for word what I was saying to my mate yesterday morning as we walked over the scape.

We have played backwards and sideways so much for so long we darent go forward.

I’m sick to death of the peps citeh being the only way to play. Ffs. They do it in the district league now.