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Post by upthetown on Sept 7, 2014 10:36:06 GMT 1
Powell discussion coming up after this break on sky sports 1 This is a dreadful discussion. "All clubs should have a Patrick Vierra type, to sit in on board meetings and suggest black candidates" Bizarre. Why would a "Patrick Vierra type" be better places to identify a potential black manager. You can see them squirming and trying to say the right thing. They look genuinely shocked that Ince was overlooked for positions. I think I must be Ince-ist, dreadful manager. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 10:38:30 GMT 1
How can you tell a black person from a white person on a CV ? That alone should stop picking people on race Well in football its blatantly obvious, as you already know all the applicants. Unless theyre called Hockaday. In the real world, when recruiting into higher management level (and a manager of a football club effectively has a role that is half CEO and half Programme Director), the chances are the applicants will be known already also. |
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Sept 7, 2014 10:50:27 GMT 1
In my honest opinion it as to be best man for the job and best candidates for the interview
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 7, 2014 10:51:36 GMT 1
I would have no problem with the Rooney Rule. The best man for the job will still get the job.. Not sure why (white) people get so hung up about it. Like it or not racism is ingrained in our society. Anything which gives black candidates a better chance to try and look at addressing historical institutionalised racism is fine by me. The Paul Inces of this world will still not get employed.. Totally agree with the poster who said it was bang out of order to play the race card if a guy gets sacked.. I bet BCFC in the nineties, and indeed Hoyle this month, didnt even give ethnicity a seconds thought when appointing their men
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Post by benhtafc on Sept 7, 2014 10:53:26 GMT 1
BBC website says that •There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England and 14 of those are black coaches" (2013) If we assume that ratio continues down to the lower qualifications, since anyone who has the relevent qualifications can train for the UEFA Pro License. Then 7.3% of qualified managers are black. So if only 7 of every hundred who are even qualified to apply for a job are black, is it any wonder that they are under represented. I think the main factor here is that most managers are ex players, and there were simply less black players at the top level 25 years ago (giving them time to play, retire and become a manager) than there are now. Over the next 10-20 years, when the current players retire and a percentage of them become managers, the number of black managers should go up. I could not find stats on the number of black players in the premier league 20-25 years ago but there have been a total of 74 black or mixed race england players, 26 (rough count - www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamBlack/PlyrsBlckMtchUsage/PlyrsBlackMostCapped.html) of which are playing professional football currently. So it follows that there about a third of all top level black/ mixed race english footballers that there have ever been, are currently still playing. If in 10 years, we are still having this conversation THEN there is a serious problem |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 11:09:37 GMT 1
There's certainly plenty of stereotyping goes on on the part of fans... I still remember the claim on this board that Leon Knight was a "similar kind of striker to Delroy Facey" in terms of physicality. Facey is a strapping 6 foot lad whilst Knight must be about 5' 5". It is undoubtedly odd that in a field where black people have broken through to become highly successful (rare indeed is the starting XI without a black face nowadays), so few make it to management level. Do chairmen worry that players won't respect a black boss as instinctively? I do wonder sometimes. Definitely theres stereotyping of players. I'd guess most of us at some point when we've seen an athletic looking black player coming on as sub who weve not seen play before we've thought, "he'll be fast"? Thats not negative though. Its just same as the preconceptions you get with fancy long haired glove wearing players in midfield, who are BOUND to be cultured passers of the ball, or skin headed tattoo (old school popeye anchor / i love mum tattoo, rather than modern poncy arty sleeve stuff) wearer who takes to the field in the midst of winter with shirt sleeves, and seemingly a pair of shorts a couple of sizes too small for him, who is BOUND to be a dirty bazza and will likely get a red card. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 11:19:43 GMT 1
I would have no problem with the Rooney Rule. The best man for the job will still get the job.. Not sure why (white) people get so hung up about it. Like it or not racism is ingrained in our society. Anything which gives black candidates a better chance to try and look at addressing historical institutionalised racism is fine by me. The Paul Inces of this world will still not get employed.. Totally agree with the poster who said it was bang out of order to play the race card if a guy gets sacked.. I bet BCFC in the nineties, and indeed Hoyle this month, didnt even give ethnicity a seconds thought when appointing their men I get hung up about it (as a white person), because its a waste of time. I had to sift through 75 CVs for an internal recruitment recently (I work for a global player with tens of thousands of employees, so that isnt that unusual even for jobs that dont go external), and whittled them down to 7 to interview. It took blooming ages, and the interviews took nearly two weeks to schedule and complete. Force me to interview some MORE folk "because they are black / asian / whatever" then either, some folk who were more deserving of getting the interview will miss out, or the interview process is going to take even longer. And they aren't likely to get the job anyway, because they didnt get selected in the CV sift in the first place for a reason. It seems to be saying, "these people arent good enough / dont have the experience / arent good at writing CVs", so you didnt select them, but give them a chance at interview anyway. Its a waste of everyones time as far as I can see, |
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Post by OldRastrickian on Sept 7, 2014 11:39:47 GMT 1
Why the obsession with black managers.....where are the Asian managers? And when did you last see an Innuit in the dug-out?
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 7, 2014 12:01:28 GMT 1
I would have no problem with the Rooney Rule. The best man for the job will still get the job.. Not sure why (white) people get so hung up about it. Like it or not racism is ingrained in our society. Anything which gives black candidates a better chance to try and look at addressing historical institutionalised racism is fine by me. The Paul Inces of this world will still not get employed.. Totally agree with the poster who said it was bang out of order to play the race card if a guy gets sacked.. I bet BCFC in the nineties, and indeed Hoyle this month, didnt even give ethnicity a seconds thought when appointing their men I get hung up about it (as a white person), because its a waste of time. I had to sift through 75 CVs for an internal recruitment recently (I work for a global player with tens of thousands of employees, so that isnt that unusual even for jobs that dont go external), and whittled them down to 7 to interview. It took blooming ages, and the interviews took nearly two weeks to schedule and complete. Force me to interview some MORE folk "because they are black / asian / whatever" then either, some folk who were more deserving of getting the interview will miss out, or the interview process is going to take even longer. And they aren't likely to get the job anyway, because they didnt get selected in the CV sift in the first place for a reason. It seems to be saying, "these people arent good enough / dont have the experience / arent good at writing CVs", so you didnt select them, but give them a chance at interview anyway. Its a waste of everyones time as far as I can see, You could have forwarded the same argument ten years ago about the huge under representation of women in the house if commons .. on the surface it seems unfair and unnecessary but for me its about trying to create a better society |
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Post by benhtafc on Sept 7, 2014 12:15:31 GMT 1
I get hung up about it (as a white person), because its a waste of time. I had to sift through 75 CVs for an internal recruitment recently (I work for a global player with tens of thousands of employees, so that isnt that unusual even for jobs that dont go external), and whittled them down to 7 to interview. It took blooming ages, and the interviews took nearly two weeks to schedule and complete. Force me to interview some MORE folk "because they are black / asian / whatever" then either, some folk who were more deserving of getting the interview will miss out, or the interview process is going to take even longer. And they aren't likely to get the job anyway, because they didnt get selected in the CV sift in the first place for a reason. It seems to be saying, "these people arent good enough / dont have the experience / arent good at writing CVs", so you didnt select them, but give them a chance at interview anyway. Its a waste of everyones time as far as I can see, You could have forwarded the same argument ten years ago about the huge under representation of women in the house if commons .. on the surface it seems unfair and unnecessary but for me its about trying to create a better society The difference in that case, even now, is that there is i much higher percentage of women qualified for the job than there is actually in the job. That is obviously a result of some sort of issue, be that discrimination or simply the male dominant environment and attitude putting women off. In football black managers are just not in abundance and to suggest that the percentage of jobs which are filled by black managers should be higher than the percentage of qualfied persons who are black is racist in itself as it suggests that black people are more able as managers than their white/asian/hispanic counterparts. There are currently a lower percentage of managers who are black than the stats regarding qualified managers suggest, and this is a shame, but its too few by about 4 people, which in the volatile world of football management is not enough to suggest that there is an underlying racism in the recruitment. It could just as easily swing the other way in the next  of sackings and 5 more black managers could get jobs and then there would be more black managers than the stats suggest there should be. |
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Post by catterickterrier on Sept 7, 2014 12:21:00 GMT 1
Where I work it takes something to get past an initial sift and even get to the interview stage
If I found out someone who was a different colour got bumped there ahead of me purely based on colour and not on ability to meet some sort of quota surely I would have rights to a grievance
Whole thing is a joke if you ask me
Powell got his interview based on ability and got the job on how well he sold himself - the end
If others have not managed it then that's all there is to it IMO
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Post by catterickterrier on Sept 7, 2014 12:22:11 GMT 1
I hope this doesn't become a recurring theme If you're good enough you will get appointed, just like he has All this 'quota' balls does my head in It's not racism, if you get a job based on your ability then that's a level playing field The day, though I think we are already there, where people get jobs based on their colour, sexuality or whatever ahead of someone because we need more of that particular group to look like we are being fair and politically correct, will be a sad day IMO About 7 years ago I went down to my local fire station to apply for the fire service as they were recruiting. I filled out all the forms and handed them in to the Old boy behind the desk, I asked him if they were recruiting a lot of numbers and what my chances were. He looked up and smiled at me and said 'ill be honest with you mate there's 2 problems with you, 1. your white and 2. your male. So virtually no chance at all'. I never got a response from them, absolutely nothing. I bumped into a lad who I used to play cricket with who worked at the fire station and was close to retirement and I asked him about it, he just shook his head and said a few expletives.
Chris Powell has got the job because he's a bloody good manager and a good man, not because he's black.
Same happened to me circa 2004 when I applied to the police - was literally told this by my mate who worked in the HR department there |
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Sept 7, 2014 12:22:15 GMT 1
I worked for an organisation where we had to show evidence of interviewing people with disabilities, I saw nothing wrong with that and see nothing wrong with interviewing a certain amount of people from a different ethnicity.
As many have stated, as long as the best candidate can be hired then IMO there isn't an issue.
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Post by BLUE&WHITE on Sept 7, 2014 12:22:57 GMT 1
Thankfully we have done things right and have appointed based on ability, if they are good enough they will get the jobs such as Chris has. He is providing a great example.
However one thing really annoys me, a few year ago we did a discrimination course at work and it is perfectly legal if you interview for a job and both candidates are The same in qualities then you can appoint the person based on race/colour/sex etc. they call this positive descrimination...
But what that does to the white male is discriminate against them because of their race/colour/sex. So surely we are back at square one?!?!?!?
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Post by catterickterrier on Sept 7, 2014 12:34:58 GMT 1
Thankfully we have done things right and have appointed based on ability, if they are good enough they will get the jobs such as Chris has. He is providing a great example. However one thing really annoys me, a few year ago we did a discrimination course at work and it is perfectly legal if you interview for a job and both candidates are The same in qualities then you can appoint the person based on race/colour/sex etc. they call this positive descrimination... But what that does to the white male is discriminate against them because of their race/colour/sex. So surely we are back at square one?!?!?!? Exactly |
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Post by hypotenuse on Sept 7, 2014 12:36:28 GMT 1
Seems to me that only Ted Chips really understands the principles of what is being argued.
Ask yourself why, for example, Oxford and Cambridge Universities now take far more (though still nowhere near enough) students from disadvantaged backgrounds. It is because they are bound by legislation to do so or they cannot charge £9000 tuition fees - they would be limited to £6500 otherwise. This positive discrimination is factored into their spreadsheets when determining who gets offered a place and is actually a very good thing contrary to what some on here think. However, the student will still get the same grade offer so best students will still get there in the end. Statistical evidence shows that the students from poorer backgrounds who make tend to do better on average than those with equal grades from more privileged upbringing.
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Post by benhtafc on Sept 7, 2014 13:08:25 GMT 1
Seems to me that only Ted Chips really understands the principles of what is being argued. Ask yourself why, for example, Oxford and Cambridge Universities now take far more (though still nowhere near enough) students from disadvantaged backgrounds. It is because they are bound by legislation to do so or they cannot charge £9000 tuition fees - they would be limited to £6500 otherwise. This positive discrimination is factored into their spreadsheets when determining who gets offered a place and is actually a very good thing contrary to what some on here think. However, the student will still get the same grade offer so best students will still get there in the end. Statistical evidence shows that the students from poorer backgrounds who make tend to do better on average than those with equal grades from more privileged upbringing. That is only the same as the black manager issue if there IS indeed discrimination in the hiring process, my argument is that there is not such descrimination but instead too few black managers. The situation you describe is the correction of what is a long standing prejuduce in favour of the upper and middle classes, which needed to happen. I dont think the same thing applies with this football issue as I dont believe a significant number of chairmain are refusing to hire managers because they are black (there are bound to be one or two unfortuantely). |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 13:09:41 GMT 1
To me it's simple. All kinds of discrimination are wrong, including "positive discrimination".
Why is positive discrimination wrong? It's wrong because it does not exist in a vacuum. If you promote someone or give them a chance because they are a minority, someone who is not a minority misses out.
The.only way to be totally fair to everyone is to ignore race altogether.
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Post by benhtafc on Sept 7, 2014 13:13:51 GMT 1
To me it's simple. All kinds of discrimination are wrong, including "positive discrimination". Why is positive discrimination wrong? It's wrong because it does not exist in a vacuum. If you promote someone or give them a chance because they are a minority, someone who is not a minority misses out. The.only way to be totally fair to everyone is to ignore race altogether. Agreed |
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Post by Giggity on Sept 7, 2014 13:50:19 GMT 1
Get on with your job Powell and stop crying the poor tale.
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Post by swollentoe on Sept 7, 2014 14:10:35 GMT 1
How can you tell a black person from a white person on a CV ? That alone should stop picking people on race Well in football its blatantly obvious, as you already know all the applicants. Unless theyre called Hockaday. In the real world, when recruiting into higher management level (and a manager of a football club effectively has a role that is half CEO and half Programme Director), the chances are the applicants will be known already also. But most of the time the chairman know who they want and appoint them so how can you set a quota for any race ? |
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Post by hypotenuse on Sept 7, 2014 15:12:01 GMT 1
It isn't about setting quotas per se. It is about ensuring EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY. This is exactly why many chairmen get the wrong managers and have to fire them after a short while. They don't do what Dean has done and interview people once or even twice and select the best person - they hire and fire willy nilly so it becomes a closed shop and many good coaches / managers of whatever race never get a look in.
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Post by runner76 on Sept 7, 2014 15:56:17 GMT 1
Nice to see us in the media....good PR for HTAFC
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Sept 7, 2014 16:30:45 GMT 1
Get on with your job Powell and stop crying the poor tale. Poor tale....stop being so flippant..... The only black manager in the football league, gives opinion on the lack of black football managers to a journalist and he's not getting on with his job.  How about YOU stop with the infantile gifs and avatars and get on with adulthood. |
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Post by Headless Chicken on Sept 7, 2014 16:53:18 GMT 1
Get on with your job Powell and stop crying the poor tale. It didn't take you long to have an unsubstantiated snipe at the new manager  I was expecting you'd at least wait til the first line-up was announced, albeit being vague enough to backtrack. |
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Post by 3Pipe on Sept 7, 2014 17:03:17 GMT 1
I work for a global player Oti? |
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Post by terrier5 on Sept 7, 2014 17:10:56 GMT 1
A lot of people, no doubt well - enough meaning, insist that ability should be the only criterion, positive discrimination is wrong etc etc. But I don't think you can seriously dispute that many people out there in society - at all levels - carry a certain amount of cultural preconceptions and baggage, even if it's not in the form of racism.
So I suspect in reality often that ability can get overlooked.
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Post by Sugy , Paignton Devon Terrier on Sept 7, 2014 18:07:54 GMT 1
Chris Powell believes that any appointments made by clubs should be on merit, he is eager to see more black coaches given the chance to thrive in management linkWhat has football management got to do with a persons colour  ? as surely Mr Powell will be judged mainly on results. |
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Post by hypotenuse on Sept 7, 2014 19:45:15 GMT 1
A lot of people, no doubt well - enough meaning, insist that ability should be the only criterion, positive discrimination is wrong etc etc. But I don't think you can seriously dispute that many people out there in society - at all levels - carry a certain amount of cultural preconceptions and baggage, even if it's not in the form of racism. So I suspect in reality often that ability can get overlooked. Hear hear Beautifully put |
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Post by Captainslapper on Sept 7, 2014 20:09:29 GMT 1
There is no difference between discrimination and positive discrimination. they are the same thing- discrimination.
To suggest that discriminating against Black people is wrong, but then put forward discriminating against white people is ridiculous.
Black people, as a minority, have been campaigning for decades for equality- to be treated the same regardless of skin colour. So for any of them now to want to be treated differently because of their skin colour ( now that it goes in their favour) is a disgrace IMO and a case of gross hypocrisy.
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of sackings and 5 more black managers could get jobs and then there would be more black managers than the stats suggest there should be.
? as surely Mr Powell will be judged mainly on results.