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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 8, 2017 11:01:50 GMT 1
There have been some great points on here and personally I think it comes down to a package of what you can provide. How can Town be different? A huge selling point to parents is education for their kids. I've noticed that the football club has an affiliation with the university through some form of sponsorship. If you can get a local school(preferably private), the university and the football club to work together as a unit to provide a number of education and football scholarships combined, it would be very attractive to a parent. Unfortunately with sports, injuries can be the end of a career and if they have an education to fall back on, that provides cheap insurance. I could imagine the commentators, "David Wagner is making a 76th minute substitute, it looks like he's turning to Joey Bloggs! Well, what a big week its been for the 19 year old, just finished his exams for his Law degree at Huddersfield University on Friday and here he is making his debut in the Premier League on Sunday against Manchester United. What a talented kid!" The current hype around the club won't last forever(well you never know) so it's a great time to strike, while the local community are in a frenzy and the iron is hot. There would have to be a local school with a Town fan in charge who would love to be a part of something special like this. I also agree that players are only going to get more expensive, the rate of that increase will out strip the cost to develop players, I'm sure. That sounds sensible but it's not quite so simple. Mentioned somewhere else on the thread that my nephew is Man U u16 goalie. He is also a bright lad in a decent school where he is doing well. Man U want him to move into "their school" which I think is nearer the training facilities. However, the school is not so good so his parents have to decide if they want to uproot him from his current education and go and live and be educated in the Man U academy. Not easy decisions. If you had a bright footballing lad in the Huddersfield area it would be a hell of a flog / disruption to put them in the Liverpool or Man U systems as a 14/15 year old. Especially when they are just as likely to be cut after a year as make it through. On the other hand he has just been on a 7 day training and playing week in Hong Kong!
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DannyG
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Post by DannyG on Sept 8, 2017 12:18:33 GMT 1
I'd be interested to know whether Andy Booth feels he would've been a significantly better player had he come through an academy rather than the youth system we had back in the day. And if so, in what way?
Also, would we still have 'produced' Jack Hunt and Alex Smithies had we not had an academy or would they just have come through a regular youth system/gone elsewhere?
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Post by colnevalleyblue on Sept 8, 2017 12:25:11 GMT 1
I'd be interested to know whether Andy Booth feels he would've been a significantly better player had he come through an academy rather than the youth system we had back in the day. And if so, in what way? Also, would we still have 'produced' Jack Hunt and Alex Smithies had we not had an academy or would they just have come through a regular youth system/gone elsewhere? Smithies was given permission to tour with Leeds' academy on some European trip. He went too, it was around the time their academy was far bigger and better funded than ours. I know of 8 year olds that are Town fans but play for Man City academy. The photos I've seen and the conversations I've heard tells me these kids are treat almost as well as our first team squad and they're 8!!! Seems pointless having our own youth teams before 16 if Clubs like City will just take the best talent.
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TTCMatt
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Post by TTCMatt on Sept 8, 2017 12:42:41 GMT 1
I also agree great points have been made but i think the most important point was made by Epsom. Football academies just haven't worked the way football expected. This isn't a slight on HTFC and what they are trying to do, it is a nationwide problem bar a few. I honestly think rather than clubs having their own academy football would benefit from regionalised academies, financed by the FA, where scouts attend and pick but are limited to a draft, pretty similar to how the NFL works. The smaller clubs get the first pick, the bigger clubs the last pick. That way academy players get more chance of breaking in to a team. Will never happen and there will are a lot of arguments either way, tough decisions. I've been banging on about regionalised systems for years (a number of regionalised versions of Lilleshall) because quite simply, I don't feel that football clubs can be trusted and aren't accountable enough. Football is rife with short termism and every academy is always looking to replace players with better at any opportunity rather than work with them. The lack of patience is rife throughout football. The whole 'development' of kids is genuinely on the back burner. Man City are a good example; from u9 they're scouting all over the UK to sign players to bring in and replace their 'local' lads. Every now and then if they can, they will bring in kids from Europe as young as 9/10 and 'house and school' them with lodgers. I was taken aback the first time I heard they'd brought in a 10 year old from Bulgaria... From u16 they're signing the best players available in Europe, From u18 they're signing the best players in the world. How does a young player develop if the club are trying to replace him from the age of 9? I personally wouldn't implement a draft system, but I would have players leave the FA schools at say 17 or so (this is the age they're allowed to sign a pro deal) and from here the clubs would have to submit a personal development plan 'pdp' in conjunction with The FA, and that The FA maintains a shareholding in the player, and if the club in question does not uphold the PDP they can force a transfer to an alternative club. Regional development centres would be expensive, so to cover the costs of running the centres and coaches, clubs will need to pay for the players at 17 - if another Rooney comes through, then a large number of clubs would be interested and would allow The FA to put that huge transfer fee back in to the system which would continue to pay for the centres and coaches. Howard Wilkinson came up with similar ideas back in 1997 and wrote something called The Charter for Quality. The idea was to have 15 or so academies and focus on the quality - this obviously didn't pan out because of FOMO (fear of missing out), so it was diluted because everyone wanted an academy. The EPPP has tried a little bit to align this with their structuring, but has instead created an unfair landscape with the haves and have nots and those in EPPP cat 3 and 4 might as well not bother... On the off chance they do get a decent player, a cat 1 or 2 club can cherry pick them starting from about 3k (depending on age). One other rule I'd change is that I'd also amend the loan rule. A lot of clubs in the lower leagues are against taking kids on loan to give game time and development to. Often clubs like Chelsea ask for 'loan fees'. I'd try remove that personally and go the other way, to encourage the development of kids, I'd introduce a scheme whereby the club that takes the player on loan then gets a small sell on fee for contribution to his development. So for example we've taken Kasey Palmer for 2 seasons, if he plays 50 games then we'd benefit from contributing to his development with say a 2.5-5% sell on fee. Mostly all pie in the sky stuff however as the clubs are in control now, and they won't give up power.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 12:58:00 GMT 1
There have been some great points on here and personally I think it comes down to a package of what you can provide. How can Town be different? A huge selling point to parents is education for their kids. I've noticed that the football club has an affiliation with the university through some form of sponsorship. If you can get a local school(preferably private), the university and the football club to work together as a unit to provide a number of education and football scholarships combined, it would be very attractive to a parent. Unfortunately with sports, injuries can be the end of a career and if they have an education to fall back on, that provides cheap insurance. I could imagine the commentators, "David Wagner is making a 76th minute substitute, it looks like he's turning to Joey Bloggs! Well, what a big week its been for the 19 year old, just finished his exams for his Law degree at Huddersfield University on Friday and here he is making his debut in the Premier League on Sunday against Manchester United. What a talented kid!" The current hype around the club won't last forever(well you never know) so it's a great time to strike, while the local community are in a frenzy and the iron is hot. There would have to be a local school with a Town fan in charge who would love to be a part of something special like this. I also agree that players are only going to get more expensive, the rate of that increase will out strip the cost to develop players, I'm sure. Joe Bloggs should forget football and pursue a career in law if he's managed to gain his letters by age 19 !
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 13:08:45 GMT 1
I'd be interested to know whether Andy Booth feels he would've been a significantly better player had he come through an academy rather than the youth system we had back in the day. And if so, in what way? Also, would we still have 'produced' Jack Hunt and Alex Smithies had we not had an academy or would they just have come through a regular youth system/gone elsewhere? I doubt an Andy Booth would emerge as a professional footballer via an Academy system. They're designed at what has been our level of coaching and investment to produce cookie cutter footballers who can train nicely, understand the game and can play ok anywhere without necessarily being out and out specialists or "different", lads who are polite and easy to look after. Tom Clarke, Nathan Clarke, Dave Mirfin, think of those types of lads who have all gone on to have decent, but not outstanding, careers in the game. Good, well spoken and grounded team players who understand the game, aren't going to drop an f-bomb in a post match interview, but aren't going to drag your team back from a 3-0 reversal with a bit of inspirational solo work that inspires and changes the mood of the game. But...players nevertheless who you miss in a big way when they're not available. In my opinion. Boothy was playing at the back end of an era where youth football was about trying to win the games, rather than nurturing the players. I think the whole system would change dramatically if someone bought TV rights to the u23 and Academy leagues, ideally a free to air channel. Add a bit of exposure and pressure.
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Post by katiek on Sept 8, 2017 17:13:58 GMT 1
Julian Winter holding a meeting with parents next friday at the stadium.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 17:27:12 GMT 1
All players will travel for the right opportunity, Blackburn, Wigan Bolton full of Mancs and Scorsese when they come to play our academy teams. Our Manchester based scholars ain't been there all the way through.
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Post by upthetown on Sept 8, 2017 17:32:58 GMT 1
I'd be interested to know whether Andy Booth feels he would've been a significantly better player had he come through an academy rather than the youth system we had back in the day. And if so, in what way? Also, would we still have 'produced' Jack Hunt and Alex Smithies had we not had an academy or would they just have come through a regular youth system/gone elsewhere? I want to know if Aaron Hardy and Matty Young would have come through the old system. If not, why not?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 19:18:30 GMT 1
I'd be interested to know whether Andy Booth feels he would've been a significantly better player had he come through an academy rather than the youth system we had back in the day. And if so, in what way? Also, would we still have 'produced' Jack Hunt and Alex Smithies had we not had an academy or would they just have come through a regular youth system/gone elsewhere? I want to know if Aaron Hardy and Marty Young would have come through the old system. If not, why not? You realise you have just sealed the fate of the Academy with that question? Lock the door on your way out. This discussion is now officially closed.
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Post by gledholt terrier on Sept 8, 2017 19:32:32 GMT 1
All players will travel for the right opportunity, Blackburn, Wigan Bolton full of Mancs and Scorsese when they come to play our academy teams. Our Manchester based scholars ain't been there all the way through. Bet they are all goodfellas.
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Post by JonsonClarkParis on Sept 8, 2017 20:00:01 GMT 1
I've heard they are shutting the foundation phase down and concentrating on boys age 13 onwards
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Post by frankslegs on Sept 8, 2017 20:54:52 GMT 1
I know so so many parents over the years that have said to me Our ----- is in the ........ academy.The best one by a mile who was at a good private school got to fourteen and decided effectively giving up cricket,golf,tennis,rugby which so many of his chums played was not worth it.The rest got nowhere near. He is now a biology teacher.Have you any idea of the time parents from any income level have to commit to get their son just into these sodding academies on multi weekly runs for the ridiculous regimes they run?The actual percentages of making a football career for someone born in the UK are so low it really is pointless.And then at thirty wondering where else to go with your life...?Sadly lower income families will understandably see it as a possible way out for the whole family which I understand but crikey the cost is high.Yes,the Man City's take on full education as well now but they are drawing worldwide. If your kid is that good at football he will be good at other sports as well.Let him enjoy them and all his other local friends as well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 23:11:22 GMT 1
I've heard they are shutting the foundation phase down and concentrating on boys age 13 onwards That would certainly be an interesting and novel idea!-I have no idea whether the EPPP/Premier League would sanction that.
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hthtafs
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Post by hthtafs on Sept 9, 2017 7:23:31 GMT 1
Two observations as a parent of a junior footballer, in my own experience our academy set up is inferior to that at Leeds and barnsley. Regardless of my own experience, it's a sad fact that talented youngsters are poached by the bigger clubs, it may be better tactic to do away with ours are merely pick off the best of the kids rejected by Man City, United, Leeds, Boro and the Liverpool clubs. Sadly our academy / youth development has been appalling. To get things on perspective we have deve 1 just one "academy" player to play for England in my lifetime - Trevor Cherry. Whilst in the last 7 years Boro have had 3 and Leeds have had 5 full internationals, probably 20 or more in my lifetime. The one disappointment I have re the Wagner era is we haven't followed up our tactic of using his intermet knowledge of the bundeslega with a similar approach to the best kids out of the German acadamies. Down the road I understanding the new management team have signed 2 kids from Barca, 1 from Madrid, 1 from Juve and others this summer. Now we're premier league this is something we should explore as our present modus operandi isn't working.
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Post by frankslegs on Sept 9, 2017 8:03:12 GMT 1
A well made point.The young man I was talking about went from Man City to Liverpool and the set ups were very professional.Re Trevor Cherry-I play golf with him and he never played for any academy but represented Town at all levels whilst doing his engineering apprenticeship.Different times indeed,Best of luck to your son.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 8:21:18 GMT 1
Youth football is changing from the traditional village teams, people are now setting up for want of a better word academies with coaches up to UEFA standards, there are some in our own HJFL. Kids are now getting into sports studies at collage and uni, looking to make football a career other than playing the game, many are lads who didn't make it as a pro and playing semi pro, Parents are falling over themselves to join these clubs paying the fees with the belief they stand a better chance to progress in the game. Town could scrap the younger end of the academy and then pick from these clubs at say 13/14. They will have had good coaching and had the mentality of playing in competitive matches week in week out.
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Post by griffa on Sept 9, 2017 9:18:12 GMT 1
A well made point.The young man I was talking about went from Man City to Liverpool and the set ups were very professional.Re Trevor Cherry-I play golf with him and he never played for any academy but represented Town at all levels whilst doing his engineering apprenticeship.Different times indeed,Best of luck to your son. I played with Town Juniors, mid 1960's at Beck Lane, Heckmondwike. I recall Trevor Cherry training with Town Juniors at Beck Lane. No club had an Academy in the sixties, During my time watching Town, we've had 6 players who came through our youth system & played as full Internationals - Denis Law, Ray Wilson, Mike O'Grady, Trevor Cherry & Frank Worthington. Ironically since when we've had several players, who have played at the England junior level, non of whom, represented England as full international level. Competition for young players is huge, for example 15 years ago, I was involved in coaching junior footballers. We attended many summer football festivals, throughout the UK, one such completion was held at 'Otley Town.' I witnessed scouts from 6 Premier League Clubs attending the tournament, all watching an eight year old boy, playing at Otley. Personally I was shocked by the scouts chasing such a young boy, Town are playing catch up & I hope we do retain the Academy - UTT.
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Sept 9, 2017 9:31:45 GMT 1
Two observations as a parent of a junior footballer, in my own experience our academy set up is inferior to that at Leeds and barnsley. Regardless of my own experience, it's a sad fact that talented youngsters are poached by the bigger clubs, it may be better tactic to do away with ours are merely pick off the best of the kids rejected by Man City, United, Leeds, Boro and the Liverpool clubs. Sadly our academy / youth development has been appalling. To get things on perspective we have deve 1 just one "academy" player to play for England in my lifetime - Trevor Cherry. Whilst in the last 7 years Boro have had 3 and Leeds have had 5 full internationals, probably 20 or more in my lifetime. The one disappointment I have re the Wagner era is we haven't followed up our tactic of using his intermet knowledge of the bundeslega with a similar approach to the best kids out of the German acadamies. Down the road I understanding the new management team have signed 2 kids from Barca, 1 from Madrid, 1 from Juve and others this summer. Now we're premier league this is something we should explore as our present modus operandi isn't working. A similar but just as bad stat. Since the start of Premier League 3,835 players have made an appearance - www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/407046465 came from our youth set up; Charlton, Ireland (seemingly one game for Blackburn), Booth, Facey and Stead. In context Tranmere - on the doorstep of Liverpool and Everton have produced 10 PL players including one current England international, www.transfermarkt.co.uk/tranmere-rovers/jugendarbeit/verein/1074/plus/0/galerie/0?wettbewerb_id=GB1&option=0&art=0Luton, competing with Arsenal and Spurs have produced 18 PL players including one England international and John Hartson - www.transfermarkt.co.uk/luton-town/jugendarbeit/verein/1031/plus/0/galerie/0?wettbewerb_id=GB1&option=0&art=0
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Post by detox on Sept 9, 2017 9:40:19 GMT 1
Does the Brentford model seem better, they seem to be having a bit more success with it, and the games the lads play seem very attractive,
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ram
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by ram on Sept 9, 2017 10:48:29 GMT 1
The "Debate" on Sky sports yesterday had Stuart Pearce and the Aussie goalie discussing Towns Acadamy,saying it would be a mistake to close it now that we a re in the Prem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 10:52:18 GMT 1
I've heard they are shutting the foundation phase down and concentrating on boys age 13 onwards That would certainly be an interesting and novel idea!-I have no idea whether the EPPP/Premier League would sanction that. I *think* that results in a fall to Cat 4 status. The higher categories have a mandatory requirement for coaches at the foundation level (more for cat 1).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 10:58:36 GMT 1
Two observations as a parent of a junior footballer, in my own experience our academy set up is inferior to that at Leeds and barnsley. Regardless of my own experience, it's a sad fact that talented youngsters are poached by the bigger clubs, it may be better tactic to do away with ours are merely pick off the best of the kids rejected by Man City, United, Leeds, Boro and the Liverpool clubs. Sadly our academy / youth development has been appalling. To get things on perspective we have deve 1 just one "academy" player to play for England in my lifetime - Trevor Cherry. Whilst in the last 7 years Boro have had 3 and Leeds have had 5 full internationals, probably 20 or more in my lifetime. The one disappointment I have re the Wagner era is we haven't followed up our tactic of using his intermet knowledge of the bundeslega with a similar approach to the best kids out of the German acadamies. Down the road I understanding the new management team have signed 2 kids from Barca, 1 from Madrid, 1 from Juve and others this summer. Now we're premier league this is something we should explore as our present modus operandi isn't working. You are correct in that our academy is inferior to the clubs mentioned the question that the club is trying to answer is which way do we go from here?.Dean as made it clear things cant stay as they are but unless we try to move to cat one which would be a massive investment anything else would in my view leaving us weaker than we are already.I Don't envy the club in having to make a decision but our record of producing over the last few years has been poor but whatever decision is made I would respect it as its not our money that is funding the most of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 11:07:06 GMT 1
A well made point.The young man I was talking about went from Man City to Liverpool and the set ups were very professional.Re Trevor Cherry-I play golf with him and he never played for any academy but represented Town at all levels whilst doing his engineering apprenticeship.Different times indeed,Best of luck to your son. I played with Town Juniors, mid 1960's at Beck Lane, Heckmondwike. I recall Trevor Cherry training with Town Juniors at Beck Lane. No club had an Academy in the sixties, During my time watching Town, we've had 6 players who came through our youth system & played as full Internationals - Denis Law, Ray Wilson, Mike O'Grady, Trevor Cherry & Frank Worthington. Ironically since when we've had several players, who have played at the England junior level, non of whom, represented England as full international level. Competition for young players is huge, for example 15 years ago, I was involved in coaching junior footballers. We attended many summer football festivals, throughout the UK, one such completion was held at 'Otley Town.' I witnessed scouts from 6 Premier League Clubs attending the tournament, all watching an eight year old boy, playing at Otley. Personally I was shocked by the scouts chasing such a young boy, Town are playing catch up & I hope we do retain the Academy - UTT. you are right competition is huge and it is ruthless as well.for us I think its the overall lack of quality both in coaching recruitment and insome cases mindsets that has brought this whole matter to a head.
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Post by kes on Sept 9, 2017 11:16:29 GMT 1
The "Debate" on Sky sports yesterday had Stuart Pearce and the Aussie goalie discussing Towns Acadamy,saying it would be a mistake to close it now that we a re in the Prem. They claimed we wouldn`t even consider it if we hadn`t got promoted to the Prem. Total, uninformed drivel as usual. The academy has been under scrutiny for years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 11:30:22 GMT 1
The "Debate" on Sky sports yesterday had Stuart Pearce and the Aussie goalie discussing Towns Acadamy,saying it would be a mistake to close it now that we a re in the Prem. They claimed we wouldn`t even consider it if we hadn`t got promoted to the Prem. Total, uninformed drivel as usual. The academy has been under scrutiny for years. yes they are illinformed the academy has been under review for the last couple of seasons and to say we woudnt be concidering it if we hadn't got promoted is utter garbage.they should do there homework before givin opinions that they are not informed about.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 14:19:19 GMT 1
They claimed we wouldn`t even consider it if we hadn`t got promoted to the Prem. Total, uninformed drivel as usual. The academy has been under scrutiny for years. yes they are illinformed the academy has been under review for the last couple of seasons and to say we woudnt be concidering it if we hadn't got promoted is utter garbage.they should do there homework before givin opinions that they are not informed about. U18S Lost 4 nill to palace today wasn't at the game and cant comment about performance but a friend who was there said the atmosphere surrounding the academy and uncertainty was obvious.the sooner a decision one way or the other is reached the better all round
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Post by griffa on Sept 9, 2017 14:31:59 GMT 1
yes they are illinformed the academy has been under review for the last couple of seasons and to say we woudnt be concidering it if we hadn't got promoted is utter garbage.they should do there homework before givin opinions that they are not informed about. U18S Lost 4 nill to palace today wasn't at the game and cant comment about performance but a friend who was there said the atmosphere surrounding the academy and uncertainty was obvious.the sooner a decision one way or the other is reached the better all round We were told that Mark Lillis was sacked, in order to improve the Academy. We have not seen any improvement, if anything, the results are worse, than under Town Legend Mark Lillis - UTT.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 14:39:58 GMT 1
I was at the game against palace today and the feeling is one of apathy and a rudderless ship. Lots of people asking what's going on. The parents must wonder if their kids are getting the best deal now ! To be fair to the u18s they are a very young squad against strong quick opponents.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 14:41:41 GMT 1
Mark Lillie is a legend but that don't make him a top class academy manager with new ideas of how to move forward.
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