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Post by town4life on Oct 2, 2008 20:36:21 GMT 1
But the money was raised when Town were in deep financial trouble with the intention of saving/helping the club, and I don’t see how HTSA owning this collection would benefit the club at all, especially in comparison to it being invested in improved training facilities or similar. and So in that case them I assume you're completely against putting the money towards the Storthes Hall development? As far as I'm aware (and the questions HAVE been put to people who attend the DA/Town Talk meetings, so I assume this will be confirmed one way or the other at some stage) - the University own the land at Storthes Hall, with KSDL owning the lease. A not for profit company was set up to manage the development, some of whose executive members are also (AT THE MOMENT) associated with Huddersfield Town FC, but as far as I'm aware, there is no legal association with the not for profit company and Huddersfield Town, and as far as I'm aware, Huddersfield Town would have to pay some kind of service charge to use the redeveloped Storthes Hall facility. Since Huddersfield Town do not have legal association with the not for profit company, nor have a legal association with KSDL, and presumably don't have one with the University - then 'gifting' the £50k (or £10k) or whatever to the Storthes Hall project (and I use the word 'gifting' because what I've seen described so far, it effectively IS a gift) wouldn't be an 'investment' either??? Things have changed in material terms since the idea of handing the money over to this project first arose. Firstly there's the size of the matched funding that could be leveraged, which appears to change on a meeting by meeting basis without anyone really knowing the answer, but more importantly... at the time the money was first 'promised' (for want of a better word), Huddersfield Town FC had a 40% interest in KSDL, and, as far as I recall, it was assumed that KSDL would be responsible for the development & management of the site (although I can understand why a seperate entity was ultimately set up, no point risking the existing KSDL business on a new development, especially in this day and age) - so gifting the cash to it would effectively have been an investment in KSDL. This is such a change that I think its downright crazy that HTSA are even considering handing the money over without some clear, written answers to lots of questions that I can't think of. So if the Storthes Hall development DOESN'T happen - what happens then? Who cares - not me, I'm a Town fan, I'm not a KSDL fan or a Hudds University fan - I would have thought given the scraping around for money that appears to be happening with this development, that it would be more appropriate, when Dean is the chairman and majority owner of Huddersfield Town, that he invested his/the clubs money, in conjunction with the HTSA money, in a facility owned by the club - either ownership or long term leasehold. No idea where that might be or what it might cost, but I'm sure Kirklees Council would be willing to talk about a partnership for further development of the Leeds Road and Sports Barn facility?? The danger of course, is that I recall someone posting ages ago either here or on the yahoogroup that Town had had their academy status threatened because of poor facilities and had been given a deadline for upgrading or commencing works on upgrading them?? In my head I thought that deadline was this August just gone, but I guess it can't be. Fair enough, using the word invested in the first statement wasn't wise, i should have re-read what i'd written more closely! Bad choice of word as i didn't intend to give the impression that i saw the money going into Storthes Hall as an investment because it won't be. What i was trying to say is that the money should be used in a way that will benefit/improve the club (such as better training facilities), but i don't really see how anyone gains from having this collection apart from a warm happy feeling that its in the hands of Town fans and we may get to see the items on display somewhere down the line. Totally agree with the points/concerns you raise about Storthes Hall and its ownership. Maybe this money should stay where it is until the club is fully in the hands of Dean Hoyle next year and we start to get a clearer picture of what his longer term plans are for the club and maybe the money could be used as part of those plans. Maybe he wants Town to have their own training ground?
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Post by nseventee on Oct 2, 2008 21:20:00 GMT 1
Fair enough, using the word invested in the first statement wasn't wise, i should have re-read what i'd written more closely! I knew you didn't mean it like that anyway, but it came in handy to reinforce my point! Spot on. And in that way, it is perhaps correct to suggest that 'gifting' (my word!) the cash to the Storthes Hall project could be considered as 'investing' in the club. Investing doesn't necessarily mean 'giving money to for an expected future monetary return' - and ensuring better facilities are able to be used by the club could be understood to be investing in the future well being of the club. Second guessing, but I think if Storthes Hall was developed up to scratch and available for Town to use for a peppercorn rent, then he'd think, "yeah lets use it" - and perhaps even commit funds to the project to ensure its success. But if those funds are going to be significant, or if the rent is going to be an unwanted annual burden, then surely Dean HAS to look at an alternative venue - and leave the KSDL, plus the not for profit management company, plus the Rugby Club, to sort out their own training ground up at Storthes Hall. Of course, the football club MAY have made commitments to the FL/FA about getting its facilities up to scratch by a certain date, which could influence things dramatically too. When thinking about the cost, then its likely significant cash injection is to be made up (I can't see the previous posts at the mo, but I think Rob said something like, "back in the day, it was assumed £50k would recieve 10x matched funding" which would give £500k, whereas now, I think he said, "£10k is the max that can receive the 10x matching" - which amounts to £100k (+potentially throw the other £40k at it to take it to £140k) ). The difference between the two is funds that would have to be forthcoming from SOMEWHERE? And then throw in that with all the delayed signing, the cost of the project has likely gone up since the initial proposals were put together as well. There could easily be a £600k to £1m shortfall that needs to be thrown at Storthes Hall. At that level, you'd have to think they'd HAVE to look elsewhere? Although, I guess, another similar value development managed by one of these mysterious umbrella not for profit organisations has gone up in recent seasons, The Zone...given it's basically the same people involved, I'd be interested in seeing exactly HOW The Zone was creatively funded, to see if any lessons could be learned from that (of course, that *could* possibly mean seeing HTFC lowering its wage budget for a couple of seasons, but far be it from me to suggest anything of the sort!). PS - I'd not buy the memorabilia, for the reasons Danny G mentioned earlier. It would be nice if they were owned by the club or some local fan who would put them on public display, but its not the end of the world if they aren't - after all, we've survived for the last 80 years without them being on public display.
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Post by bro600 on Oct 2, 2008 21:41:11 GMT 1
As far as i know (and any info is sketchy) there are certain time deadlines set by F.A/F.L for academy purposes on the Storthes Hall project. But the whole thing stinks. Lack of information from the club. Lack of questions from representatives. The club missing certain deadlines. A hell of a lot of ignorance on the whole issue.
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Post by thebiglad on Oct 3, 2008 0:34:55 GMT 1
I'm not a Town fan, but the way I see it is this.........
The club's heritage should stay with the club and, more importantly, it should stay with The Fans, who ultimately ARE the club!
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Post by Stan_Lee on Oct 3, 2008 2:17:36 GMT 1
Having read through all the previous posts. . I just don't think its worth it in the end and could leave us with nothing in the " kitty " .
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Post by mids on Oct 3, 2008 7:21:13 GMT 1
Having read through all the previous posts. . I just don't think its worth it in the end and could leave us with nothing in the " kitty " . If we bought them then we would definitely not have any money in 'the kitty' as it will take all the money HTSA has. However, if money was ever needed more money could/would be raised or donated....AND the collection of memorabilia could/would be sold (in part) to get some ready cash. Let's live for the day, celebrate the history of our club, and look at what's happening now....rather than what might happen in the future.
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Post by terracesider on Oct 3, 2008 10:04:19 GMT 1
Indeed - why does the Supporters Association need such a comparatively vast amount of cash ?
Personally I have always felt slightly aggrieved (& expressed so on these pages) that the few bob that I put into that fund in the clubs "hour of need" has been allowed to lie in a bank account for such a long period of time. This is - I gather - because the stewards of that money didn't trust the management of the club to use the money in what they (the stewards) considered to be the correct manner. We are about to have a change of management (& apparently the incoming Chairman is not viewed with such odium as the present incumbent??) so give the money to the Club to use as they think best (player development, landfill grant "seeding" (whatever that is) etc.etc.)
50 grand is a lot of money to most of us but in modern football as we all know it would hardly pay for that beano at the Aspley a couple of weeks ago - just let it go to the place we intended when we contributed the cash. Now that WOULD be a powerful sign of trust of the new regime.
3 points tomorrow more important, and interesting, than any of this stuff.
UTT
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Post by ksne on Oct 4, 2008 20:26:11 GMT 1
When the club went into administration the fans of Huddersfield Town rallied around and donated through various means to keep the club afloat. This fundraising continued over the years and the Supporters Trust (formerly Survival Trust) found itself the custodian of approximately £55,000. The Supporters Trust has now fully merged into Huddersfield Town Supporters Association, and consequently that £55,000 is now held under that group. Some of that money may still be 'promised' to HTFC as part of funding the Storthes Hall development, but this has been a very long & protracted situation. However, it came to the attention of HTSA that a relative of one of Towns Thrice Championship team may be looking to sell all the memorabilia (including medals, caps and shirts) they own for a figure in the region of £50-60,000. The collection is due to be put up for sale at Sotheby's in the near future but we feel that it, if possible, especially with it being the club's centenary, that the items should remain in the area and with Huddersfield Town fans, and we are looking into the possibility of trying to purchase them before the auction. The intention then would be to show them as part of an exhibition (along with the memorabilia of other fans) at the stadium or a local museum. This would need a lot of planning etc but it would certainly be our goal. In the future, especially with the proposed HDOne Development, we would hope that room could be found to permanantly display these items so that they are accessible to all Town fans. We would like to gauge the views of Town fans on here, many of whom will contributed in one way or another at the time. We want HTSA to be as transparent and democratic, so that we can represent as many fans opinions as possible. I`m bumping this up because I would like something claryifying. Has the newly formed HTSA decide to go ahead with the purchase of the memborabilia? or are we still at the wait and see,let us decide by a democratic vote, stage?
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LePoivre
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Post by LePoivre on Oct 4, 2008 21:41:10 GMT 1
I`m bumping this up because I would like something claryifying. Has the newly formed HTSA decide to go ahead with the purchase of the memborabilia? or are we still at the wait and see,let us decide by a democratic vote, stage? Somewhere in between, Sandy. We've already taken soundings here and on the Yahoo list and also via email with the HTSA membership - plus a straw poll at last Thursday's Patrons meeting and there is little doubt that a majority favour acquisition. However, in addition to practicalities of display, storage etc., there is the key question of a valuation and we don't have that, as yet. When we have more information then we can make a balanced judgement on the viability of proceeding. At least, that's my view.
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Post by nseventee on Oct 4, 2008 22:45:51 GMT 1
there is little doubt that a majority favour acquisition. At least, that's my view. I think your view is wrong. My perception is that whilst there has been support, there has been more opposition than support for this idea, and furthermore, the reasons for objection have been a lot more compulsive and well formed than the reasons for buying the collection.
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Post by LePoivre on Oct 4, 2008 22:55:36 GMT 1
there is little doubt that a majority favour acquisition. At least, that's my view. I think your view is wrong. My perception is that whilst there has been support, there has been more opposition than support for this idea, and furthermore, the reasons for objection have been a lot more compulsive and well formed than the reasons for buying the collection. As you say, Nigel, that's your peception. Mine is based not only on this board but also emails received and last Thursday's Patrons meeting.
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Post by nseventee on Oct 4, 2008 23:09:48 GMT 1
Fair enough.
Probably worth pointing out that my personal opinion is at odds with what I think (but may be mistaken) is the popular opinion.
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Post by ksne on Oct 5, 2008 19:38:13 GMT 1
I`m bumping this up because I would like something claryifying. Has the newly formed HTSA decide to go ahead with the purchase of the memborabilia? or are we still at the wait and see,let us decide by a democratic vote, stage? Somewhere in between, Sandy. We've already taken soundings here and on the Yahoo list and also via email with the HTSA membership - plus a straw poll at last Thursday's Patrons meeting and there is little doubt that a majority favour acquisition. However, in addition to practicalities of display, storage etc., there is the key question of a valuation and we don't have that, as yet. When we have more information then we can make a balanced judgement on the viability of proceeding. At least, that's my view. Its very interesting that you appear to think the majority of favour this aquisition because yesterday we spoke to numerous fans at the game and the walk from the Stadium. Guess what they didn`t know anything about it!! Its difficult I know but you canoyt make an assumption like you have if the MAJORITY of fans are unaware of the proposed acquisition. I`m sorry but I`m against it. I would be interested in us partly funding it bur certainly do not want to spend all the cash in reserve on this. For this to be conducted fairly and democratically then the news of this propseal has to REACH the fans. Difficult yes. Spending £50,000 easy.
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LePoivre
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Post by LePoivre on Oct 5, 2008 19:54:05 GMT 1
You cannot guarantee that everyone will know about it but we shall continue to publicise it as best we can. In my reply to Nigel I pointed out that those who do know are in a majority in favour. I'd be interested to know why you're against it, Sandy.
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Post by DannyG on Oct 5, 2008 20:13:58 GMT 1
Bob, are you saying the majority are for the purchase of the memorabilia using the Trust funds or are you saying the majority favour the memorabilia being bought by the club/fans without definition of how it will be paid for?
The reports of the Patrons meeting 'vote' are ambiguous, IMO. The direct quote I read on the mailing list was - "a vote was taken that was just about 100% supported that all efforts should be made to keep this together at the club, rather than sell at Sotheby's"
To me that doesn't mean about 100% supported the idea of using the Trust funds to purchase the items, just that they favour the club/fans owning them 'somehow'. Is that the wrong impression, I wasn't there so don't know for sure if it's just been badly worded or the vote was actually about the Trust funds?
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Post by LePoivre on Oct 5, 2008 20:58:38 GMT 1
No, it wasn't a direct reference to the use of the £50K reserve but to the principle of retaining the collection for the benefit of the fans. Until we have a realistic evaluation we can't know how best the acquistion might be funded.
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Post by mids on Oct 6, 2008 7:27:30 GMT 1
I would be interested in us partly funding it bur certainly do not want to spend all the cash in reserve on this. For this to be conducted fairly and democratically then the news of this propseal has to REACH the fans. Difficult yes. Spending £50,000 easy. How much of the £50k would you be happy to be used to partly fund it? What would you propose HTSA does with the remainder? It's unlikely to be £50k....as some is currently promised to the Storthes Hall project. It's far from easy to gather every fan's opinion, and it's not as easy as you you think to spend the money in the bank account. The money was initially donated for a specific purpose, and that it did....it kept our club alive! Now the threat of imminent closure looks remote, the excess of funds sits in a bank account gathering a bit of interest each year. Is it better to just leave it there until a time (if ever?) when it is needed to meet the specific purpose it was donated for? Or should it be invested in securing some of Town's history remains close to its spiritual home? Or should it be used on something quite different? Both of the last two options go against what the money was donated for, and unfortunately it all comes down to opinions....and it is those that we are doing our best to gather. It has been discussed on here, on the Yahoo mailing list, it is mentioned on the official site, and it's going to be mentioned in the Examiner. Other than using a billboard at the ground what else can HTSA do?
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Post by rooo on Oct 6, 2008 8:07:34 GMT 1
I think your view is wrong. My perception is that whilst there has been support, there has been more opposition than support for this idea, and furthermore, the reasons for objection have been a lot more compulsive and well formed than the reasons for buying the collection. As you say, Nigel, that's your peception. Mine is based not only on this board but also emails received and last Thursday's Patrons meeting. FWIW, I did a straw poll at the pub amongst my friends on Saturday and it was agreed 100% not to spend the full £50K on this memorabilia, so my perception is that we should not use all this money on purchasing! Why doesn't HTSA email their members and ask them, rather than asking Patrons who turn up on a Thursday evening meeting in October who may or may not be members of HTSA or ask members of DATM, who again may or may not be members of HTSA? Could someone please confirm that this collection has been valued by a reputable auctioneer who specialises in football items, because £50k + seems very expensive to me (being a non reputable auctioneer) BTW, I have a Bondholder's tie available for purchase, make me an offer? ;D
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Post by mids on Oct 6, 2008 8:30:50 GMT 1
As you say, Nigel, that's your peception. Mine is based not only on this board but also emails received and last Thursday's Patrons meeting. FWIW, I did a straw poll at the pub amongst my friends on Saturday and it was agreed 100% not to spend the full £50K on this memorabilia, so my perception is that we should not use all this money on purchasing! Why doesn't HTSA email their members and ask them, rather than asking Patrons who turn up on a Thursday evening meeting in October who may or may not be members of HTSA or ask members of DATM, who again may or may not be members of HTSA? Could someone please confirm that this collection has been valued by a reputable auctioneer who specialises in football items, because £50k + seems very expensive to me (being a non reputable auctioneer) BTW, I have a Bondholder's tie available for purchase, make me an offer? ;D I was under the opinion that all HTSA members (who have provided an email address) had been emailed.....hence Bob saying he'd had some email replies. The valuation is currently been undertaken by a very reputable valuer, and both sides are awaiting his considered & investigated decision. At that point negotiations can begin as to how much, if any, HTSA offers for the collection....and if the club will contribute. I'll offer you £1.50 for the tie
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Post by nseventee on Oct 6, 2008 10:12:28 GMT 1
Now the threat of imminent closure looks remote What, with the wage bill doubling, season ticket sales likely to be very low again next season (unless we somehow manage to get into the play offs and beyond), and the club about to be in the position where its paying rental to an organisation whose only link to the club is that the organisations major shareholder will be a minor shareholder at Town? - And possibly been in a position where the club is in a position where it loses its academy status and the associated grants because of not having the required facilities in place. I'd say the club remains at risk.
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Post by rooo on Oct 6, 2008 10:22:51 GMT 1
Now the threat of imminent closure looks remote What, with the wage bill doubling, season ticket sales likely to be very low again next season (unless we somehow manage to get into the play offs and beyond), and the club about to be in the position where its paying rental to an organisation whose only link to the club is that the organisations major shareholder will be a minor shareholder at Town? - And possibly been in a position where the club is in a position where it loses its academy status and the associated grants because of not having the required facilities in place. I'd say the club remains at risk. Don't forget that Town still have a £1 million + loan outstanding on the north stand! Mids - that tie cost me £400, so you'll have to offer me a bit more than that
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Post by townatheart on Oct 6, 2008 10:43:38 GMT 1
Now the threat of imminent closure looks remote What, with the wage bill doubling, season ticket sales likely to be very low again next season (unless we somehow manage to get into the play offs and beyond), and the club about to be in the position where its paying rental to an organisation whose only link to the club is that the organisations major shareholder will be a minor shareholder at Town? - And possibly been in a position where the club is in a position where it loses its academy status and the associated grants because of not having the required facilities in place. I'd say the club remains at risk. Could agree with your points to the extent that there will certainly remain financial issues, but think Mids is correct in saying that there is not an immenent danger, and with Dean Hoyles involvement, dont see even a medium term danger either. But I do agree that we would be remiss to take our eye off the ball so to speak. And for this reason when I first heard of the idea, I had strong reservations. However, if the funds end up being utilised to purchase the collection, the collection will be owned by the fans and at any future point where it appeared that the Club was in dire financial straits and needed our financial help to survive, the collection could and would be sold to provide the cash to do so. Personally, I find this much more suitable to simply giving the funds to the club to cover operating expenses etc, or even something short term such as covering a loan signing. The money then would be well and truly gone. I accept that there will be differing views and ways to look at this, however, unless I've missed something, cant recall seeing anything suggested as a positive alternative. Also, as a bit of an update, I do believe that there is a proper valuation being done, and the preliminary indications are that the value we will be less than the original amounts being discussed. This may or may not make it more acceptable to those currently not in favor. But again, in my view, will help to make it a more sensible possibility. So to those who have questions, please put on the thinking caps and share ideas on what you think should be done with the funds.
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Post by ksne on Oct 6, 2008 15:38:24 GMT 1
Once again I`m putting my "tin hat on" and replying re my concerns about the purchase of the memrobilia.
1)According to Bob Pepper those present at the HTSA meeting, Patrons, Yahoo,Datm(?)the majority are in favour of purchasing.I`d like some numbers please.
I and my better half plus one offspring are members of the Patrons,HTSA and Datm and we are not in favour.
I know its a difficult undertaking but so far word about the proposal certainly has not reached anywhere near the majority of Town fans.We walked back to our car on Saturday with a group of fans( 10 of us) and not one of them knew anything about it.
When Keith explained what it was about there certainly was not a MAJORITY vote. 7 of these plus ourselves contributed in our hour of need.I make that 9 out of 12 not in agreement.75%.
I`m not totally against the proposal but has it been ascertained whether the club are interested in their purchase.It is as I recall our Centenary year.What a great gesture it would be if they bought them.I would be happy to vote for some contribution to the purchase but not the whole.
Where are these items going to be located?.
How accessible are they going to be for Town fans who may wish to see them?
Who is going to insure them? as some fans feel that there value would increase?
Who would be responsible for keeping them in a safe and suitable evironment?
FWIW I would love to see any surplus money being utilised for fans of the future i.e our youngsters.Football in the community is on examle that springs to my mind.
Also I would be in favour of some permanent modern memorial of how we fans rallied round a fought to save this club of ours and what we achieved when we were in the awful crisis we were.
p.s where are the polls on Datm when something really important needs voting on?
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Post by bro600 on Oct 6, 2008 18:46:29 GMT 1
There as been a lot of stick given to polls raised by HTSA in the past (quite right on occasions). I think there's time to gather all the information and then make sure we get a decent well-thought out poll that we can make available to as many Town supporters as possible further down the road. I'm sat on the fence regarding the Memorabilia as i'd like to see the club give a few assurances regarding it's housing and the likes before deciding either way. I would rather the money was invested though as it's certainly been burning an hole in someone's pockets for the last 3 years.
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Post by ksne on Oct 6, 2008 19:00:02 GMT 1
Rob I agree about the amount of needless polls that have taken place on DATM.
My point being that on this occasion it is a very valid subject for a poll.
I`d have agreed with you that the money would have been better invested but maybe not just yet with the stocka and share situation as it is? because it has done beggar all since it was handed over to the ST?
Interesting little fact that this subject isn`t at this moment in time gripping all DATM members interest? as at a quick calculation, from responses to the subject,interest would appear to be around 21-22%?
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Post by bro600 on Oct 6, 2008 19:08:09 GMT 1
If you want to start using percentages to show the interest in this subject you could easily say that under 5% of Town supporters were interested in Town surviving administration as that was how many people joined the survival trust. 22% of Town supporters interested in any one given subject isn't bad at all given that figure. ;D
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Post by ksne on Oct 6, 2008 19:10:11 GMT 1
If you want to start using percentages to show the interest in this subject you could easily say that under 5% of Town supporters were interested in Town surviving administration as that was how many people joined the survival trust. 22% of Town supporters interested in any one given subject isn't bad at all given that figure. ;D Not enough for a majority vote IMO
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Post by bro600 on Oct 6, 2008 19:15:18 GMT 1
You'd never get a parliament or a local council if that's the case. If you give the majority the right to vote and they decide not to that in itself is a decision for them to make. I don't vote for politicians as my grandad alway's used to say it encourages them.
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Post by ksne on Oct 6, 2008 19:17:22 GMT 1
You'd never get a parliament or a local council if that's the case. If you give the majority the right to vote and they decide not to that in itself is a decision for them to make. I don't vote for politicians as my grandad alway's used to say it encourages them. Quite right too IMO ;D
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Post by nseventee on Oct 6, 2008 19:52:46 GMT 1
If you want to start using percentages to show the interest in this subject you could easily say that under 5% of Town supporters were interested in Town surviving administration as that was how many people joined the survival trust. 22% of Town supporters interested in any one given subject isn't bad at all given that figure. ;D Only people who joined the survival trust were interested in Town surviving admin?
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