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Post by Stewpot on Aug 22, 2019 12:23:57 GMT 1
Anyone else remember being told that our two years in the PL meant Town were financially secure for the next 10 years? Yes but they didn't tell us we'd be in the BetVictor Northern Premier League (North West) by that time. |
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calken
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by calken on Aug 22, 2019 12:33:56 GMT 1
Maybe town want more reassurance on what they spend their money on? Diak and mbenza were a very expensive gamble that has yet to return much.
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Post by terrier2019 on Aug 22, 2019 12:47:42 GMT 1
who knows if hes asked for it back or not. you cant deny whats happening now as left a bad taste im mouth and in my opinion its left deans legacy in tatters.where fast becoming a laughing stock and i just cant see a way out of this downward spiral
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Post by 28901 on Aug 22, 2019 12:57:15 GMT 1
who knows if hes asked for it back or not. you cant deny whats happening now as left a bad taste im mouth and in my opinion its left deans legacy in tatters.where fast becoming a laughing stock and i just cant see a way out of this downward spiral Why is it posters like you don't use capitals? |
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Post by terrier2019 on Aug 22, 2019 13:04:33 GMT 1
who knows if hes asked for it back or not. you cant deny whats happening now as left a bad taste im mouth and in my opinion its left deans legacy in tatters.where fast becoming a laughing stock and i just cant see a way out of this downward spiral Why is it posters like you don't use capitals? Who,s bothered |
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Post by Paphos Terrier on Aug 22, 2019 13:13:42 GMT 1
Should Season Ticket Holders ask for their money back?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 13:25:11 GMT 1
Deano’s gets his money back and we go back to where we came from (League 1). It was a nice experiment but apart from a handful of memorable days we are going back to the Huddersfield Town we all know. 'A nice experiment' 'apart from a handful of memories' You ungrateful twonk. We was pulling out some exciting high scoring football in league one with clarks first season with low season ticket prices on top of that. We were all crying out for us just to make it to the championship. After 2 seasons there with some great players like butterfield, coady, clayton, vaughan in his prime it still wasnt enough for some. We made it to the premier league, it was the best season i believe i will ever witness as a town fan, so many fantastic memories, not a chuffing handful. Being in the prem and staying up was just the icing on the cake. There were questions being asked on this very board of hoyles ambition/intent when we sold coady etc under Powell. My two cents is that i reckon the board have been questioning siewerts ability before the season started. Instead of spunking loads of money on players they have said 'show us what you can do' then we will spend money when they trusted him. If hoyle wants his money back then fair enough. We wouldnt be here if not for him anyway. And he wouldnt screw us over anyway. I am very worried right now. But i believe a good appointment for new manager will see us just fine. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 13:51:28 GMT 1
Transfer fees are handled separately. Wage bill for the FIRST EPL season was around £60m, so last year likely to be an increase on that (still low by EPL standards)....let’s assume £65m or so? Assuming EVERY player had a 40% cut, that’s a wage bill around £40m. Sure, we’ve lost Mooy and Zanka who will have been big earners, and Billing (who likely won’t have been earning quite as much, players who come through the ranks always tend to be lower paid than those that are “enticed” in...similar with Tommy Smith)...but likewise Elphick and Campbell won’t be cheap (Hull couldn’t meet Campbell’s expectation apparently?). Plus wages for Grabera and Chalobah we’re probably paying a decent lump of, Chelsea’s no name players get HUGE contracts compared to our U23s. So whilst wage has likely dropped this season even with all the lower league players coming in, it’s still pretty close to the parachute amount received. And that parachute decreases and disappears, which is what the club has to transition to as the new normal...you can never plan for promotion unfortunately. Money is going to be tight. The raw numbers tell you that very very obviously. According to David Wagner, our wage bill for that first PL season was more like 30 million. At the time, the next lowest wage bill for that year was Brighton on 60 million. So we were operating on a wage budget half of what our nearest (perceived) rivals were. If David Wagner ever said that, which I doubt, then he was wildly inaccurate and incorrect. Look at the accounts, year to June 2018, employee costs were over £62m, and those accounts state it was expected and planned for a further increase to that figure during the following year. Those same accounts also confirm (as reiterated by Phil H) that all surplus cash was reinvested...and also show that Dean took back approximately £3m during that season which reduced the amount owing to him to be slightly less than £50m...however it was also stated that expectation was the summer transfer window period after the accounts would likely see Dean injecting more monies (as per what has been mentioned has happened again this summer) so amounts owing to him would rise again. |
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Post by alexdire on Aug 22, 2019 14:18:53 GMT 1
Anyone else remember being told that our two years in the PL meant Town were financially secure for the next 10 years? Yes, Anne Hough in one of the broadsheet newspapers, I believe. |
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Post by sykeylad on Aug 22, 2019 15:34:23 GMT 1
Surely if we don't go back up we will need to budget to live much nearer to our means.
Deano put cash in, so PH will need to in time it would seem likely.
So surely it follows we either 'blow our brains' or try to invest in youth with a core of experience to preserve cash and bring potential future funds in. This will allow future budgets to be larger than they would be otherwise.
I don't really get all the bleating, whining and moaning except so far in the process we seemed to have slipped up with Elphick and having Kongolo at left back.
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Post by rastrick32 on Aug 22, 2019 15:52:39 GMT 1
who knows if hes asked for it back or not. you cant deny whats happening now as left a bad taste im mouth and in my opinion its left deans legacy in tatters.where fast becoming a laughing stock and i just cant see a way out of this downward spiral Why is it posters like you don't use capitals? Because they are usually too busy and property prices are ridiculous. |
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Post by Sugy , Paignton Devon Terrier on Aug 22, 2019 15:54:41 GMT 1
So what was the money spent on that Hoyle wants back regarding his pre mention loan..
Big money"TRANSFER FEES AND WAGES " have previously been mentioned that brought in " CRAP " like Mounie ,Kachunga ,Flo, Bacuna, Prichard , and Mbenza plus Hoyles must have signed these players off when believing someone who thought this shite could make it at premier league level
Wagner walked early knowing he could do nothing with these players , and " SCAPEGOAT " Siewert soon followed
Sadly so many of the crap retained players now make up the " MAIN STRENGTH " of the championship first team , and that coupled with some cheap and cheerful dreadful signings is the main reason why town are second from bottom and sinking fast.
Hardly any player on the field V Cardiff looked to have either championship quality ability , a basic footballing brain or close ball control ,and its a fact that every player needs taking back to basics by an " EXPERIENCED " incoming manager if we are not going down the Sunderland route.
What we are seeing is nothing much more than a continuation from last season , and doubt any top manager could get this present squad of failures above a half way finish
It will be vital that the second part parachute payment be spent on quality players , and it would not take alot to replace the dreadful ongoing failing crap that we see today
The club nees to get it into its head that it would not take alot for the season cards sales to go from 18,000 to 9,000 as how much can one take
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Post by pauldaltonsboots on Aug 22, 2019 16:01:43 GMT 1
Despite all the childish bickering, there is a legitimate question here that us fans deserve to better understand.
Nobody is saying we should have the money of Man City but likewise we shouldn’t seemingly be tight on funds. Somewhere in the middle feels right given the last 2 seasons in the Premiership and the riches that brings.
I do not buy what Phil says in its entirety - maybe more a half truth, but something isn’t right and doesn’t add up. I for one, like most fans just want to know the truth and then be able to set our expectations of the next few seasons accordingly.
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Post by sandgrounder on Aug 22, 2019 16:09:00 GMT 1
As other posters have referenced Companies House and the charges answer the question. He hasn't had it back yet but has secured his position so is likely to receive some form of a return over time but the details of which none of us are privy to or how. Agree we shouldn't be but if it is funded by way of income into the club (parachute payments the obvious line) then it is inevitably going to have a knock on effect to the footballing side of the business and it's budget.
To provide context of what is in the public domain. DH has confirmed a sale process was run and in the Podcast he referenced interest from American parties but "they wanted him to stay on as a figure head". He has known PH by way of 100 club member, club box holder, sponsor and not sure if they have had any dealing outside of that (not publicly anyway).
Look at PH business model "Pure Funding" and its about creative off balance sheet funding solutions for Law Firms. In lay terms using third party funders monies for Law Firms to acquire and run their work in progress.
DH may have had other offers but which offered him the desired return on his investment and an out with a secured position? PH thought he was going to be living his dream of running his boyhood football club. Question is at whose expense? The long term answer to that is I suspect is the supporters and the club.
We all enjoyed the dream of Premier League and lets be honest it wasn't great planning "the stars aligned" or again in lay terms we got lucky. Premature to use the word crisis. Yes. Are we in danger of doing a Sunderland, Yes. IS throwing cash at it the sole answer, No. But any club at any level requires investment on an ongoing basis and higher up the pyramid the more significant. Hopefully DH gets a chunk of his cash out and buys the ground and we are better placed if ever the dream is realised again.
PH and others have their work cut out to steady the ship. relegation is unthinkable and the appointment of the right Manager is the biggest decision PH will make in his Town tenure. Get it wrong and nobody hangs around where they aren't wanted for too long (unless your an Oysten) and eventually it catches up with you.
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Post by York Terrier on Aug 22, 2019 18:52:49 GMT 1
Despite all the childish bickering, there is a legitimate question here that us fans deserve to better understand. Nobody is saying we should have the money of Man City but likewise we shouldn’t seemingly be tight on funds. Somewhere in the middle feels right given the last 2 seasons in the Premiership and the riches that brings. I do not buy what Phil says in its entirety - maybe more a half truth, but something isn’t right and doesn’t add up. I for one, like most fans just want to know the truth and then be able to set our expectations of the next few seasons accordingly. Don’t try to introduce a modicum of common-sense on here some smart Muppet with 50 million posts will shoot you down. |
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Aug 23, 2019 20:28:00 GMT 1
i have been trying to work out why we suddenly have no money and all I can think is that DH has insisted that he is paid back all his money previously invested. Prior to DH selling the club I posted that there was a due diligence process being undertaken by an American consortium. It’s only supposition but I wonder if the Americans would not agree to pay DH back his previous investment as they needed the money to invest in the team? On the other hand Phil ( who is hard to like) was so star struck by being given the opportunity to take over agreed to refund DH his previous investments from the parachute payments and picked up the club with his total available monies, on the basis that he thought we could survive in the championship with the players we have until the second and third parachute payments kicked in, hence we have no monies this season to improve the team. its just a thought as we are getting a £42m parachute payment this year we got £20m from the sale of players, wages have been chopped due to relegation, but we are told we have no money (which I find hard to believe) despite making a profit last year. I don’t suppose we will ever know I appreciate not everyone under stands corporate transactions but. - The what sales agreement would state clearly what would be paid and when.
- the agreement would have been reached with various parameters adjusting the sales price long before the Americans due diligence was started
- Dean would not let him buy the club with the club's money, he would simply hold on to the club draw the money out then sell.
- The budget, including the parachute payment, would have been completed long before relegation. There would be ay least 2 budgets to account for the radically different financial positions.
People who don't work with take overs assume an awful lot based on their own personal biases. That's not a criticism just human nature.
These transactions are far less emotional than you would think and most variables in a contract are resolved via solicitors.
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Aug 23, 2019 20:31:32 GMT 1
Don’t you ever engage the brain before putting your Mouth ( finger ) in gear? Our new chairman has already said the first years parachute payment has gone. If you ever bothered to read what is posted without just being a dick, you might be able to cut your postings by 99% and one day say something positive instead of posting the shit you do far to frequently.🤐 Thanks for the personal abuse. So are you saying we have no money? If you are saying that do you know that or are you just guessing ? Because PH wouldn't say we have no money. Do you have an inside track on our finances that he doesn't? Or is he a liar ? cash flow and profitability a 2 different animals. |
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Aug 23, 2019 20:35:38 GMT 1
i have been trying to work out why we suddenly have no money and all I can think is that DH has insisted that he is paid back all his money previously invested. Prior to DH selling the club I posted that there was a due diligence process being undertaken by an American consortium. It’s only supposition but I wonder if the Americans would not agree to pay DH back his previous investment as they needed the money to invest in the team? On the other hand Phil ( who is hard to like) was so star struck by being given the opportunity to take over agreed to refund DH his previous investments from the parachute payments and picked up the club with his total available monies, on the basis that he thought we could survive in the championship with the players we have until the second and third parachute payments kicked in, hence we have no monies this season to improve the team. its just a thought as we are getting a £42m parachute payment this year we got £20m from the sale of players, wages have been chopped due to relegation, but we are told we have no money (which I find hard to believe) despite making a profit last year. I don’t suppose we will ever know Yes he has asked for it back you must be very well informed. Dean can ask for whatever he wants, if its not in the contract it wont happen. Its not like he's skint, is it? Hes not well enough to start a new major investment . |
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Aug 23, 2019 20:38:14 GMT 1
i have been trying to work out why we suddenly have no money and all I can think is that DH has insisted that he is paid back all his money previously invested. Prior to DH selling the club I posted that there was a due diligence process being undertaken by an American consortium. It’s only supposition but I wonder if the Americans would not agree to pay DH back his previous investment as they needed the money to invest in the team? On the other hand Phil ( who is hard to like) was so star struck by being given the opportunity to take over agreed to refund DH his previous investments from the parachute payments and picked up the club with his total available monies, on the basis that he thought we could survive in the championship with the players we have until the second and third parachute payments kicked in, hence we have no monies this season to improve the team. its just a thought as we are getting a £42m parachute payment this year we got £20m from the sale of players, wages have been chopped due to relegation, but we are told we have no money (which I find hard to believe) despite making a profit last year. I don’t suppose we will ever know or maybe he wouldnt have outside investment because they would scrutinise where all moneys gone and want to look at books.something doesnt add up to me 👏🐑👏🐑👏🐑👏🐑👏🐑👏🐑 They would not have access to that info anyway, you buy a business proposition and a balance sheet. What Dean did with the money is his and his auditors concern. Oh and the HMRC |
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Aug 23, 2019 20:40:43 GMT 1
"Im trying to work out why we suddenly have no money " Another guesser. Who says we don't have money . We DO have money. The problem we have is that the window is now closed . Stop making stuff up ffs you're an old man behaving like an 8 year old The question is then how have we found ourselves in that position then? what position? until the accounts come out we wont know, unless you have very privileged access to the clubs accounts. |
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Aug 23, 2019 20:42:33 GMT 1
I bet Phil is wishing he said no to Dean's offer Wonder what the current situation would be if he had done. Dean still in charge or Americans running the show He's a big (rich) boy, he will have a long term strategy. The only thing that might surprise him is some of the stuff posted on here. |
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Aug 23, 2019 20:43:47 GMT 1
Should Season Ticket Holders ask for their money back?  |
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jim59
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by jim59 on Aug 23, 2019 20:59:41 GMT 1
We are all from what I read above perplexed as to how things have gone this way. Dean sold the club in the manner he chose as was his right. We all know that the decisions made on certain players now looks like a waste of money in capital terms. What perhaps we are forgetting is that we signed players as a premier league club with the wages that go with it.
I suspect that the current wage bill is still a major burden. I know we have had to let some of our best players go as they want to play at a higher level. I'd be willing to bet that if we were in charge and considering what we are paying certain players compared to their apparent abilities we might decide to get rid as soon as we can too.
It is disappointing that given we knew we were going down that some pre planning wasn't put in place. Or maybe it was but the economics of our sojourn at the top table are still hurting.
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Post by Detective Boyle on Aug 23, 2019 21:05:27 GMT 1
Classic town - 2 years on the gravy train and no gravy to show for it... But we had biscuit wheels...you missed a corker there Big Ern |
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johns
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
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Post by johns on Aug 23, 2019 21:05:38 GMT 1
We are all from what I read above perplexed as to how things have gone this way. Dean sold the club in the manner he chose as was his right. We all know that the decisions made on certain players now looks like a waste of money in capital terms. What perhaps we are forgetting is that we signed players as a premier league club with the wages that go with it. I suspect that the current wage bill is still a major burden. I know we have had to let some of our best players go as they want to play at a higher level. I'd be willing to bet that if we were in charge and considering what we are paying certain players compared to their apparent abilities we might decide to get rid as soon as we can too. It is disappointing that given we knew we were going down that some pre planning wasn't put in place. Or maybe it was but the economics of our sojourn at the top table are still hurting. It was all in place everyone lost 40% of their wages. |
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jim59
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by jim59 on Aug 23, 2019 21:09:42 GMT 1
We are all from what I read above perplexed as to how things have gone this way. Dean sold the club in the manner he chose as was his right. We all know that the decisions made on certain players now looks like a waste of money in capital terms. What perhaps we are forgetting is that we signed players as a premier league club with the wages that go with it. I suspect that the current wage bill is still a major burden. I know we have had to let some of our best players go as they want to play at a higher level. I'd be willing to bet that if we were in charge and considering what we are paying certain players compared to their apparent abilities we might decide to get rid as soon as we can too. It is disappointing that given we knew we were going down that some pre planning wasn't put in place. Or maybe it was but the economics of our sojourn at the top table are still hurting. It was all in place everyone lost 40% of their wages. 40 per cent reduction on too much may still be too much? |
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Post by tockyterrier on Aug 23, 2019 21:16:48 GMT 1
Not getting the right players in . Getting stitched up on deadline day . Etc etc is NOT the same as having no money . People are adding 2 and 2 and making 5 .. But to be quite Frank even if we had 100 million to spend RIGHT NOW it's academic because we have to play the n3xt 20 games with the players we have. So actually the key thing now is undoing all the "work" of Siewert and getting the right man in to motivate and organise a bunch of underperforming players But didn’t Phil say in the last Q&A that all the Premier League money had been spent or accounted for? No. He said....., 2 seasons in The Prem earned roughly £200m. We spent £100. On players & the other £100m paying them. Hence ( on paper) our squad is worth 100m more than when we were last in this division. (hard to believe at the moment I know) He said the FIRST YEARs parachute payments were accounted for ( Canalside and wages, even though they had a relegation clause) . A 3 window transition is actually one season. Next season we will have roughly £30m parachute payment plus player sales income. BUT don't forget we were being subsidised by around £5m a year under DH before the wage bill went UP. so some would say... Possibly Bolton fans...... That it would be wise to look at the £30m as away of offsetting our annual losses for a few years whilst investing player sales back in to replacements once we know we have the right man to coach them (like we did with Wagner) Or we could wail, cry abs stamp our feet whilst making up a load of bollocks about the man that DH personally chose to take care of our club. |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Aug 23, 2019 21:17:32 GMT 1
The question is then how have we found ourselves in that position then? what position? until the accounts come out we wont know, unless you have very privileged access to the clubs accounts. Where we have spent about a million quid on transfers, signed no quality players, have a first choice centre back who is 30 plus and his legs are shot, not won a game all season, seemingly carry no goal threat. |
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Post by tockyterrier on Aug 23, 2019 21:24:36 GMT 1
i have been trying to work out why we suddenly have no money and all I can think is that DH has insisted that he is paid back all his money previously invested. Prior to DH selling the club I posted that there was a due diligence process being undertaken by an American consortium. It’s only supposition but I wonder if the Americans would not agree to pay DH back his previous investment as they needed the money to invest in the team? On the other hand Phil ( who is hard to like) was so star struck by being given the opportunity to take over agreed to refund DH his previous investments from the parachute payments and picked up the club with his total available monies, on the basis that he thought we could survive in the championship with the players we have until the second and third parachute payments kicked in, hence we have no monies this season to improve the team. its just a thought as we are getting a £42m parachute payment this year we got £20m from the sale of players, wages have been chopped due to relegation, but we are told we have no money (which I find hard to believe) despite making a profit last year. I don’t suppose we will ever know or maybe he wouldnt have outside investment because they would scrutinise where all moneys gone and want to look at books.something doesnt add up to me 👏🐑👏🐑👏🐑👏🐑👏🐑👏🐑 What a prat. We know the money came from DH. So at worst, the money would have fibre back to DH. Why would he need to hide it? He invested £50m in the club, delivered prem footy vs a guaranteed income of around £380m over 5 years. When we were running at a loss of about £5m/year on a £12m wage bill. Are you saying that (if he did) he didn't deserve his money back? Talk about Ungrateful |
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Aug 23, 2019 21:25:03 GMT 1
what position? until the accounts come out we wont know, unless you have very privileged access to the clubs accounts. Where we have spent about a million quid on transfers, signed no quality players, have a first choice centre back who is 30 plus and his legs are shot, not won a game all season, seemingly carry no goal threat. The team performance, recruitment and squad quality is lower than I could have imagined in my worst nightmares. I was referencing the financial position and people's misinformed analysis. The 2 will interact when season tickets go on sale if something doesn't change quickly. |
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