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Post by Torquayterrier on Nov 28, 2019 17:06:52 GMT 1
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Nov 28, 2019 17:10:20 GMT 1
There'll be outrage on Merseyside tonight.
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Nov 28, 2019 17:16:33 GMT 1
It needs putting to bed now, it's gone on too long, whether the jury's verdict is a correct one or not, I don't know, maybe not given the evidence.
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Post by tepidterrier on Nov 28, 2019 17:39:15 GMT 1
fucking outrageous. already been ruled they were unlawfully killed, duckenfield had previously admitted lying in his statements but the judges in 2 of the trials have not considered this to be relevant evidence to the jury. every officer that day was ordered to write evidence on loose paper so it could be edited before making its way into their notebooks. before anyone sounds off about it being the fans fault, it's already been established that they did not contribute to the danger of the situation, and even if they had it wouldn't have been foreseeable. just another case of the establishment protecting its own.
my heart goes out to the families of the victims, who have acted with dignity in the face of constantly reliving unimaginable trauma, and pursued truth and justice throughout. a sad day
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Post by alexdire on Nov 28, 2019 18:06:11 GMT 1
fucking outrageous. already been ruled they were unlawfully killed, duckenfield had previously admitted lying in his statements but the judges in 2 of the trials have not considered this to be relevant evidence to the jury. every officer that day was ordered to write evidence on loose paper so it could be edited before making its way into their notebooks. before anyone sounds off about it being the fans fault, it's already been established that they did not contribute to the danger of the situation, and even if they had it wouldn't have been foreseeable. just another case of the establishment protecting its own. my heart goes out to the families of the victims, who have acted with dignity in the face of constantly reliving unimaginable trauma, and pursued truth and justice throughout. a sad day But is it one man who unlawfully killed them or the actions of a lot of people that contributed to killing them. Take for instance the person who decided to have 'take your place 15 minutes before kick off' on the tickets.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 18:23:41 GMT 1
As heartbreaking as it was and is nothing can change what occurred but for me its now time to let this sad sad episode go .Imo.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 28, 2019 18:36:11 GMT 1
To be honest we've done this to death over the years. I'm sure no one will have anything to say that they haven't already said ten times. Thoughts with the families of the dead as always
RIP
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Nov 28, 2019 18:46:21 GMT 1
Bigger things at play here I suspect - still far too many people still alive that are connected to this decision...
The biggest travesty in all of this, is why this is headline news over 30yrs after the actual tragedy itself. Should have been a headline no more than 5yrs after the event, case closed (whatever the outcome would have been back then) & people could have at least moved on with their lives.
We can comment from the outside in, that's easy. However, the stress of 30yrs will have shortened the lifespan of some of these campaigners & this is the final ultimate insult to them.
As with anything like this, where culpability reaches the higher echelons of certain groups of people, the establishment will force it to drag on until people are down on their knees.
Grenfell has the potential to go the same way. As a country I think we have some incredibly hypocritical and nasty bastards moving around in privileged circles...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 19:05:06 GMT 1
Bigger things at play here I suspect - still far too many people still alive that are connected to this decision... The biggest travesty in all of this, is why this is headline news over 30yrs after the actual tragedy itself. Should have been a headline no more than 5yrs after the event, case closed (whatever the outcome would have been back then) & people could have at least moved on with their lives. We can comment from the outside in, that's easy. However, the stress of 30yrs will have shortened the lifespan of some of these campaigners & this is the final ultimate insult to them. As with anything like this, where culpability reaches the higher echelons of certain groups of people, the establishment will force it to drag on until people are down on their knees. Grenfell has the potential to go the same way. As a country I think we have some incredibly hypocritical and nasty bastards moving around in privileged circles... We all know what happened that day, we know it was a catastrophic decision and in hindsight it wouldn't have happened. What we will probably never know is who authorised and oversaw a massive cover up. That does not lie at the feet of David Duckenfield.
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Post by Captainslapper on Nov 28, 2019 19:19:30 GMT 1
Ive never believed Liverpool fans should be absolved of all blame. That wasn't an orderly queue that formed outside just before kick off and you'd have to be extremely naive IMO to think a fair % of those people weren;t pissed and /or ticketless. Duckenfield was inexperienced and faced with a situation and he made a catastrophic mistake in trying to rectify it that directly lead to 96 deaths. The police conduct afterwards was scandalous but Ive never believed the mistake he made in opening those exit gates was 'criminal'.. it was i believe just a terrible mistake made in good faith as he saw it at that moment. What can you say.. it was horrendous. It effected me badly at the time and still does when i think about it. I was 19 then and so were so many of the victims, for the same reason Id have probably been a victim if it had been Town that day. Id have got there in plenty of time and gone right behind the goal where the best atmosphere is.
To me the wrong people were in the dock. This had been waiting to happen for years and there'd been near misses in the years leading up to it that the FA will have known about and done nothing to stop. I have Leeds mates who were there for the 87 semi against Coventry and the exact same thing happened. They say it was truly frightening and just a person stumbling away from being 'Hillsborough' then. Wolves had the same thing in 81 against Spurs. Same end,. same pen for same reason.
Should have been the FA officials who kept ignoring the warning signs that were in that dock IMO.
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Post by rastrick32 on Nov 28, 2019 19:26:38 GMT 1
With this, the current political situation, Grenfell, the World in general, I feel like I don't have any trust or faith in anything or anyone, apart from my family and friends.
Life is fucked imo. I don't know what is true, what it real or what anything really means. It seems like nothing matters anymore. There is no scope to feel outrage because shit like this is now so fucking normal and commonplace and it goes on and on forever. There is NEVER a resolution to anything. We just crack on in a world of lies and supposition and then we die.
Apart from that, everything is fine and dandy.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Nov 28, 2019 20:37:03 GMT 1
Duckingfield has to live with whatever he might of done or be responsible for ! He will go to his grave thinking of it hopefully. Whether or not he should of been found guilty is another issue. I for one cant judge him. I am sure he must Struggle At least somedays with the events and situation of it all because if he doesnt then he must have a psychopathic personality.
RIP the 96
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 28, 2019 20:39:42 GMT 1
Ive never believed Liverpool fans should be absolved of all blame. That wasn't an orderly queue that formed outside just before kick off and you'd have to be extremely naive IMO to think a fair % of those people weren;t pissed and /or ticketless. Duckenfield was inexperienced and faced with a situation and he made a catastrophic mistake in trying to rectify it that directly lead to 96 deaths. The police conduct afterwards was scandalous but Ive never believed the mistake he made in opening those exit gates was 'criminal'.. it was i believe just a terrible mistake made in good faith as he saw it at that moment. What can you say.. it was horrendous. It effected me badly at the time and still does when i think about it. I was 19 then and so were so many of the victims, for the same reason Id have probably been a victim if it had been Town that day. Id have got there in plenty of time and gone right behind the goal where the best atmosphere is. To me the wrong people were in the dock. This had been waiting to happen for years and there'd been near misses in the years leading up to it that the FA will have known about and done nothing to stop. I have Leeds mates who were there for the 87 semi against Coventry and the exact same thing happened. They say it was truly frightening and just a person stumbling away from being 'Hillsborough' then. Wolves had the same thing in 81 against Spurs. Same end,. same pen for same reason. Should have been the FA officials who kept ignoring the warning signs that were in that dock IMO. 100% correct. Unfortunately accidents are no longer allowed to happen. Duckenfield made errors and his life has been ruined as the scapegoat. I was almost crushed to death at games twice...thankfully those days have gone and to this day I avoid crowds for this reason. The ticketless fan pushing and trying to blag his way in would never be accused of manslaughter and yet had he/she not been there it would never have occurred. Loads will "dislike" this post but overcrowding only occurs when there is an over crowd. The sad events of that day were the cumulative effects of many failings.
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Post by terracesider on Nov 28, 2019 20:45:31 GMT 1
Ive never believed Liverpool fans should be absolved of all blame. That wasn't an orderly queue that formed outside just before kick off and you'd have to be extremely naive IMO to think a fair % of those people weren;t pissed and /or ticketless. Duckenfield was inexperienced and faced with a situation and he made a catastrophic mistake in trying to rectify it that directly lead to 96 deaths. The police conduct afterwards was scandalous but Ive never believed the mistake he made in opening those exit gates was 'criminal'.. it was i believe just a terrible mistake made in good faith as he saw it at that moment. What can you say.. it was horrendous. It effected me badly at the time and still does when i think about it. I was 19 then and so were so many of the victims, for the same reason Id have probably been a victim if it had been Town that day. Id have got there in plenty of time and gone right behind the goal where the best atmosphere is. To me the wrong people were in the dock. This had been waiting to happen for years and there'd been near misses in the years leading up to it that the FA will have known about and done nothing to stop. I have Leeds mates who were there for the 87 semi against Coventry and the exact same thing happened. They say it was truly frightening and just a person stumbling away from being 'Hillsborough' then. Wolves had the same thing in 81 against Spurs. Same end,. same pen for same reason. Should have been the FA officials who kept ignoring the warning signs that were in that dock IMO. I had given up completely on spectating at football for quite a while by the time of this event and indeed by the time of the Bradford fire. The disgusting behavior of a large number of fans and the response of the authorities, especially the erection of fences - which greatly magnified the effects for the Hillsborough incident - drove me away from the game. On 15th April '89 I was playing round Crosland Heath and had no idea there was even a semi-final taking place.... I would have said at that time that the game was on the edge of some kind of draconian government intervention - justifiably so. Absolutely ridiculous to charge Mr. Duckenfield with any criminal activity - the infrastructure of the game was totally rotten at the time - there could have easily (on my later reading) have been around twenty bigwigs from football, the police and the local council in the dock, and probably given long periods in prison. Two further points that I would make: 1) If you were a "fan" in the 70's/80's who indulged in fighting (firms) or throwing bog rolls on the field; YOU undoubtedly bear some of the responsibility for the disaster. 2) If you want to understand the facts (not just the usual crap about drunken fans etc.) READ THE TAYLOR REPORT.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 21:12:07 GMT 1
With this, the current political situation, Grenfell, the World in general, I feel like I don't have any trust or faith in anything or anyone, apart from my family and friends. Life is fucked imo. I don't know what is true, what it real or what anything really means. It seems like nothing matters anymore. There is no scope to feel outrage because shit like this is now so fucking normal and commonplace and it goes on and on forever. There is NEVER a resolution to anything. We just crack on in a world of lies and supposition and then we die. Apart from that, everything is fine and dandy. I like most of your posts, but I'm struggling to work out whether this is satire or a 'the end is nigh' type comment. There's so much more transparency in government and public services these days, that there's recently been some sort of justice for the victims of Hillsborough despite what the families will see as a disappointment in the Duckenfield decision. Had Grenfell happened in the '80s or '90s, the tabloids would have blamed the residents and run some kind of campaign to 'kick out the immigrant arsonists'.
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Post by tockyterrier on Nov 28, 2019 21:39:23 GMT 1
Ive never believed Liverpool fans should be absolved of all blame. That wasn't an orderly queue that formed outside just before kick off and you'd have to be extremely naive IMO to think a fair % of those people weren;t pissed and /or ticketless. Duckenfield was inexperienced and faced with a situation and he made a catastrophic mistake in trying to rectify it that directly lead to 96 deaths. The police conduct afterwards was scandalous but Ive never believed the mistake he made in opening those exit gates was 'criminal'.. it was i believe just a terrible mistake made in good faith as he saw it at that moment. What can you say.. it was horrendous. It effected me badly at the time and still does when i think about it. I was 19 then and so were so many of the victims, for the same reason Id have probably been a victim if it had been Town that day. Id have got there in plenty of time and gone right behind the goal where the best atmosphere is. To me the wrong people were in the dock. This had been waiting to happen for years and there'd been near misses in the years leading up to it that the FA will have known about and done nothing to stop. I have Leeds mates who were there for the 87 semi against Coventry and the exact same thing happened. They say it was truly frightening and just a person stumbling away from being 'Hillsborough' then. Wolves had the same thing in 81 against Spurs. Same end,. same pen for same reason. Should have been the FA officials who kept ignoring the warning signs that were in that dock IMO. 100% correct. Unfortunately accidents are no longer allowed to happen. Duckenfield made errors and his life has been ruined as the scapegoat. I was almost crushed to death at games twice...thankfully those days have gone and to this day I avoid crowds for this reason. The ticketless fan pushing and trying to blag his way in would never be accused of manslaughter and yet had he/she not been there it would never have occurred. Loads will "dislike" this post but overcrowding only occurs when there is an over crowd. The sad events of that day were the cumulative effects of many failings. Absolutely this. The narrative from the campaigners about the scandal of trying to "blame the dead for their own deaths" had always deflected from the real issue. Hundreds of fans that should have not been there (and almost certainly) trying to get in, resulted in the decision to open the gate. That decision was probably taken in good faith to try and avoid injuries outside the ground. It was a mistake that was possibly niaive, definitely in error, but was only taken because of the fans that should not have been there. Side note, I went to a 6th round FA Cup tie at Loftus Road against West Ham. Have no doubt (now) that the paper tickets we bought were fake based on the numbers that were in the ground. My feet didn't touch the ground for half the game. It could easily have been a similar disaster. The ticket touts and myself would have been a lot more to blame than the police if it had been.
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Post by tepidterrier on Nov 28, 2019 21:50:51 GMT 1
fucking outrageous. already been ruled they were unlawfully killed, duckenfield had previously admitted lying in his statements but the judges in 2 of the trials have not considered this to be relevant evidence to the jury. every officer that day was ordered to write evidence on loose paper so it could be edited before making its way into their notebooks. before anyone sounds off about it being the fans fault, it's already been established that they did not contribute to the danger of the situation, and even if they had it wouldn't have been foreseeable. just another case of the establishment protecting its own. my heart goes out to the families of the victims, who have acted with dignity in the face of constantly reliving unimaginable trauma, and pursued truth and justice throughout. a sad day But is it one man who unlawfully killed them or the actions of a lot of people that contributed to killing them. Take for instance the person who decided to have 'take your place 15 minutes before kick off' on the tickets. legal culpability is decided by an unbroken chain of events caused by the action of a party. sure, it may not have happened but for the tickets being written that way, but they weren't in any way in charge of the way the crowd was managed, how the victims were treated or characterised in death, neither did they subsequently lie to cover their arses. Duckenfield has done all of those, but walks free.
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Post by Porrohman on Nov 28, 2019 21:57:10 GMT 1
Duckingfield has to live with whatever he might of done or be responsible for ! He will go to his grave thinking of it hopefully. Whether or not he should of been found guilty is another issue. I for one cant judge him. I am sure he must Struggle At least somedays with the events and situation of it all because if he doesnt then he must have a psychopathic personality. RIP the 96 Same goes for those turning up at the last minute and trying to get in. The ones that did as they were asked paid the consequences. RIP
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Post by tepidterrier on Nov 28, 2019 21:59:42 GMT 1
would also agree that in 'but for' terms, those without tickets contributed. but what's their role? when you go to a football match, ticket or not, you expect those in charge to know what they're doing and keep you safe. that's supposed to be the function of the police and stewarding. An accident would've been if they were on their way in and the stand collapsed in an unforeseeable way
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 28, 2019 22:01:18 GMT 1
But is it one man who unlawfully killed them or the actions of a lot of people that contributed to killing them. Take for instance the person who decided to have 'take your place 15 minutes before kick off' on the tickets. legal culpability is decided by an unbroken chain of events caused by the action of a party. sure, it may not have happened but for the tickets being written that way, but they weren't in any way in charge of the way the crowd was managed, how the victims were treated or characterised in death, neither did they subsequently lie to cover their arses. Duckenfield has done all of those, but walks free. Let's not forget the smear stories that duckenfield n Co fed the press (pissing on dead bodies etc) in order to cover their asses (yes I know I said I wouldn't but people's attitudes towards this depress me)
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 28, 2019 22:03:10 GMT 1
would also agree that in 'but for' terms, those without tickets contributed. but what's their role? when you go to a football match, ticket or not, you expect those in charge to know what they're doing and keep you safe. that's supposed to be the function of the police and stewarding. An accident would've been if they were on their way in and the stand collapsed in an unforeseeable way The horrible thing is that people tribalise this. If 96 (that's ninety six) town fans had died going to a football match their opinion would be different. That's pretty fucked up
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 28, 2019 22:09:10 GMT 1
I don't agree with that Ted. No axe to grind with any group. No different to me Town or Liverpool fans. It was largely an accident. Mistakes made but manslaughter? Look at the Heysel convictions...criminal negligence.
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Post by The Sheriff Strikes Back on Nov 28, 2019 22:10:45 GMT 1
One person should not and cannot be held to account for what was a total systemic failure, with an unaccountable number of factors, leading to a tragedy which (naively) wasn't foreseen.
As Slapps has already alluded to, the FA have probably the biggest questions to answer over the issue, but as far as I'm aware, haven't been brought to task in any way shape or form.
If i were in power, there would be a blanket ban on any further legal proceedings regarding the issue.
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Post by turbo2 on Nov 28, 2019 22:10:52 GMT 1
would also agree that in 'but for' terms, those without tickets contributed. but what's their role? when you go to a football match, ticket or not, you expect those in charge to know what they're doing and keep you safe. that's supposed to be the function of the police and stewarding. An accident would've been if they were on their way in and the stand collapsed in an unforeseeable way You seriously think that you are kept safe by the police and stewards? Wow Also remember the era, folk always seem to forget the era. Football spiralling down the gutter ,dilapidated grounds, serious violence everywhere, heysel only a few years earlier It was simply a matter of time before something like this happened, and it probably saved football from itself
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Post by ben1987 on Nov 28, 2019 22:15:07 GMT 1
One person should not and cannot be held to account for what was a total systemic failure, with an unaccountable number of factors, leading to a tragedy which (naively) wasn't foreseen. As Slapps has already alluded to, the FA have probably the biggest questions to answer over the issue, but as far as I'm aware, haven't been brought to task in any way shape or form. If i were in power, there would be a blanket ban on any further legal proceedings regarding the issue. Let’s hope that never happens you raging Tory.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 28, 2019 22:17:00 GMT 1
I don't agree with that Ted. No axe to grind with any group. No different to me Town or Liverpool fans. It was largely an accident. Mistakes made but manslaughter? Look at the Heysel convictions...criminal negligence. I didn't say everyone mate
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Post by Porrohman on Nov 28, 2019 22:19:05 GMT 1
Conspiracy theory time : Was today the due date for the decision or has it been announced so that the papers can lead with it rather than Johnson, cowardly, pulling out of another debate or the BBC getting Corbyn to do his interview by saying The Liar had also agreed when he hasn't?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 22:23:36 GMT 1
Duckingfield has to live with whatever he might of done or be responsible for ! He will go to his grave thinking of it hopefully. Whether or not he should of been found guilty is another issue. I for one cant judge him. I am sure he must Struggle At least somedays with the events and situation of it all because if he doesnt then he must have a psychopathic personality. RIP the 96 Same goes for those turning up at the last minute and trying to get in. The ones that did as they were asked paid the consequences. RIP Yet young children at the front who were blameless, still had blood taken from their lifeless bodies to check alcohol levels. The authorities motives left a stink which is still wafting around 30 years on. Huddersfield Town fans bust a gate down at Hillsborough in the early 60s to get in to a cup match, sold out when the coach got there late. I was back on the coach and missed it. Mind you, we didn't have the M62 major road works to deal with in those days, like the Liverpool fans transport did that day. Exactly why there was a surge on a crush building outside Leppings Lane for going on an hour before. Liverpool with their higher ticket allocation were simply given the wrong end. Very few will agree with this, but i don't care and i ain't gonna argue.
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Champers
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Post by Champers on Nov 28, 2019 22:42:34 GMT 1
Whilst not a subject I have a lot of interest in getting involved in, I think it's important to say that an official inquest did conclude that NO fans outside the ground were in any way to blame for the tragedy. People are entitled to their opinions of course, but it's viewpoints like those that the victims' families fought long and hard to get the right answers to. Dismissing those findings is a slap in the face to those families, and seems a little crass. Just my opinion.
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Post by Porrohman on Nov 28, 2019 22:47:23 GMT 1
Same goes for those turning up at the last minute and trying to get in. The ones that did as they were asked paid the consequences. RIP Yet young children at the front who were blameless, still had blood taken from their lifeless bodies to check alcohol levels. The authorities motives left a stink which is still wafting around 30 years on. Huddersfield Town fans bust a gate down at Hillsborough in the early 60s to get in to a cup match, sold out when the coach got there late. I was back on the coach and missed it. Mind you, we didn't have the M62 major road works to deal with in those days, like the Liverpool fans transport did that day. Exactly why there was a surge on a crush building outside Leppings Lane for going on an hour before. Liverpool with their higher ticket allocation were simply given the wrong end. Very few will agree with this, but i don't care and i ain't gonna argue. What went on after is where the charges should've gone to. What happened was a tragedy, but no one did anything at the time to purposefully make it happen. But whatever was decided after from Thatcher down is what should've been investigated
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