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Post by Porrohman on Nov 28, 2019 22:49:09 GMT 1
Whilst not a subject I have a lot of interest in getting involved in, I think it's important to say that an official inquest did conclude that NO fans outside the ground were in any way to blame for the tragedy. People are entitled to their opinions of course, but it's viewpoints like those that the victims' families fought long and hard to get the right answers to. Dismissing those findings is a slap in the face to those families, and seems a little crass. Just my opinion. And now one has found that Dukinfield wasnt to blame so you either question both decisions or neither |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 28, 2019 22:52:25 GMT 1
Yet young children at the front who were blameless, still had blood taken from their lifeless bodies to check alcohol levels. The authorities motives left a stink which is still wafting around 30 years on. Huddersfield Town fans bust a gate down at Hillsborough in the early 60s to get in to a cup match, sold out when the coach got there late. I was back on the coach and missed it. Mind you, we didn't have the M62 major road works to deal with in those days, like the Liverpool fans transport did that day. Exactly why there was a surge on a crush building outside Leppings Lane for going on an hour before. Liverpool with their higher ticket allocation were simply given the wrong end. Very few will agree with this, but i don't care and i ain't gonna argue. What went on after is where the charges should've gone to. What happened was a tragedy, but no one did anything at the time to purposefully make it happen. But whatever was decided after from Thatcher down is what should've been investigated So you don't think the reason so many died might not have anything to do with Duckenfield (sat 30 yards away with multiple cctvs) not instructing his officers to block the central tunnel whilst people were getting crushed in there whilst the wings were half empty. Incompetent doesn't cover it. |
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Champers
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by Champers on Nov 28, 2019 23:02:10 GMT 1
Whilst not a subject I have a lot of interest in getting involved in, I think it's important to say that an official inquest did conclude that NO fans outside the ground were in any way to blame for the tragedy. People are entitled to their opinions of course, but it's viewpoints like those that the victims' families fought long and hard to get the right answers to. Dismissing those findings is a slap in the face to those families, and seems a little crass. Just my opinion. And now one has found that Dukinfield wasnt to blame so you either question both decisions or neither Again, I'll stress it's not something I really want to get into. I was only 9 when I watched it all unfold on the BBC, and the sheer horror of what I and others saw that day has never really left me. I have not proffered any of my own viewpoints about the tragedy, I just wanted to make the point I did for the reasons I gave 👍🏼 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 23:03:46 GMT 1
Yet young children at the front who were blameless, still had blood taken from their lifeless bodies to check alcohol levels. The authorities motives left a stink which is still wafting around 30 years on. Huddersfield Town fans bust a gate down at Hillsborough in the early 60s to get in to a cup match, sold out when the coach got there late. I was back on the coach and missed it. Mind you, we didn't have the M62 major road works to deal with in those days, like the Liverpool fans transport did that day. Exactly why there was a surge on a crush building outside Leppings Lane for going on an hour before. Liverpool with their higher ticket allocation were simply given the wrong end. Very few will agree with this, but i don't care and i ain't gonna argue. What went on after is where the charges should've gone to. What happened was a tragedy, but no one did anything at the time to purposefully make it happen. But whatever was decided after from Thatcher down is what should've been investigated All things considered the FA shouldn't have sanctioned Hillsborough with not even a valid safety certificate. You're right, it wasn't purposeful. At the end of the day if David Duckinfield had been found guilty what then? He's had to live with guilt all those years. The guys life was effectively destroyed 30 years ago. What happened after should have been investigated. |
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Post by Porrohman on Nov 28, 2019 23:05:42 GMT 1
What went on after is where the charges should've gone to. What happened was a tragedy, but no one did anything at the time to purposefully make it happen. But whatever was decided after from Thatcher down is what should've been investigated So you don't think the reason so many died might not have anything to do with Duckenfield (sat 30 yards away with multiple cctvs) not instructing his officers to block the central tunnel whilst people were getting crushed in there whilst the wings were half empty. Incompetent doesn't cover it. I haven't mentioned his competence, I said it wasn't done with the purpose of causing loss of life. It was a mistake, people make them. What wasn't a mistake was what went on after from no 10 down |
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Post by tepidterrier on Nov 28, 2019 23:07:39 GMT 1
would also agree that in 'but for' terms, those without tickets contributed. but what's their role? when you go to a football match, ticket or not, you expect those in charge to know what they're doing and keep you safe. that's supposed to be the function of the police and stewarding. An accident would've been if they were on their way in and the stand collapsed in an unforeseeable way You seriously think that you are kept safe by the police and stewards?  Wow Also remember the era, folk always seem to forget the era. Football spiralling down the gutter ,dilapidated grounds, serious violence everywhere, heysel only a few years earlier It was simply a matter of time before something like this happened, and it probably saved football from itself of course I don't think the police keep us safe but that's what they're *supposed* to be for. on crowd behaviour though without police and stewards crowds would act in much more unpredictable ways |
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Post by Porrohman on Nov 28, 2019 23:08:17 GMT 1
And now one has found that Dukinfield wasnt to blame so you either question both decisions or neither Again, I'll stress it's not something I really want to get into. I was only 9 when I watched it all unfold on the BBC, and the sheer horror of what I and others saw that day has never really left me. I have not proffered any of my own viewpoints about the tragedy, I just wanted to make the point I did for the reasons I gave 👍🏼 Fair enough, I didn't see it unfold. The first I heard was walking back down the terrace from having a slash and someone with a radio mentioned the semi had been halted due to a crowd disturbance which we took to mean they were scrapping. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 28, 2019 23:17:05 GMT 1
So you don't think the reason so many died might not have anything to do with Duckenfield (sat 30 yards away with multiple cctvs) not instructing his officers to block the central tunnel whilst people were getting crushed in there whilst the wings were half empty. Incompetent doesn't cover it. I haven't mentioned his competence, I said it wasn't done with the purpose of causing loss of life. It was a mistake, people make them. What wasn't a mistake was what went on after from no 10 down You are correct he hasnt gone to prison for manslaughter. But to call it "a mistake" is (ill be polite) very kind of you. I'm not sure you'd be so kind if that was your daughter who perished |
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Post by turbo2 on Nov 28, 2019 23:30:54 GMT 1
I haven't mentioned his competence, I said it wasn't done with the purpose of causing loss of life. It was a mistake, people make them. What wasn't a mistake was what went on after from no 10 down You are correct he hasnt gone to prison for manslaughter. But to call it "a mistake" is (ill be polite) very kind of you. I'm not sure you'd be so kind if that was your daughter who perished But the call to open to gates was to preserve life outside the stadium. If they had left the gates shut and 96 had died outside we’d still be having this discussion 30 years on. The police horses were apparently off the ground the crush was so bad outside. Far too many x’s to let one person take the blame. |
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Post by Stavros on Nov 28, 2019 23:32:25 GMT 1
Whilst not a subject I have a lot of interest in getting involved in, I think it's important to say that an official inquest did conclude that NO fans outside the ground were in any way to blame for the tragedy. People are entitled to their opinions of course, but it's viewpoints like those that the victims' families fought long and hard to get the right answers to. Dismissing those findings is a slap in the face to those families, and seems a little crass. Just my opinion. That's the bit that has always confused me. The way in which the families, and everybody else, treats 'The Liverpool fans' as a single entity. It's clear to everyone that the people who died were guilty of nothing, God rest their soul. However if I had been a victim of a crush at a Town game I can't imagine my mother going to such lengths to clear you lot on this board (i.e OTHER Town fans who she or I never met) just because we wear the same  . To say that LFC fans were in the wrong is NOT to blame those who died, and yet it's been painted that way from the start. All that having been said I feel like you do, in that the enquiry has pinpointed what was clearly an organisational shambles as the cause of the tragedy, and that's good enough for me because the 'establishment' wouldn't come to that conclusion unless it were true. As for Duckenfield, it's clear that he was out of his depth. In that case I'd rather see charges brought against the Police force as a whole, or at least the fella who put him in charge as well as DD himself. Whoever his boss is surely had a responsibility for proper training? All in all I'm glad it's now over and I hope people find peace despite their disappointment at today's verdict. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 28, 2019 23:41:53 GMT 1
You are correct he hasnt gone to prison for manslaughter. But to call it "a mistake" is (ill be polite) very kind of you. I'm not sure you'd be so kind if that was your daughter who perished But the call to open to gates was to preserve life outside the stadium. If they had left the gates shut and 96 had died outside we’d still be having this discussion 30 years on. The police horses were apparently off the ground the crush was so bad outside. Far too many x’s to let one person take the blame. Turbo I have a confession to make. A confession I'm not proud of. My mates offered me a ticket for free to watch an FA cup semi in 1987. No brainer... But the catch was it was Cov Leeds and I'd have to go in the Leeds end. I made a stupid mistake and set off on that Sunday morning. I nearly died.. We got there two hours before kick off. Prime positions right behind the goal. I don't really want to talk about the rest, either the fact I was stood in a scum end, or the fact I nearly crushed to death. But suffice to say when I saw the footage from the semi two years later I knew exactly what had happened. And the enquiries confirmed exactly what I knew. Once you went through the turnstiles you entered an open area then had choices where to go. One option was to go down a tunnel and into the central pen. The day I nearly got crushed I remember vividly looking to the wing pens and seeing it almost empty and thinking "what the fuck". It was surreal and I was lifted off my feet. Duckenfield was in charge in 1989. He could have closed off the central pens. That's why people died. Read the report |
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Post by tockyterrier on Nov 28, 2019 23:54:31 GMT 1
1986. 30seconds in
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Post by turbo2 on Nov 28, 2019 23:58:31 GMT 1
But the call to open to gates was to preserve life outside the stadium. If they had left the gates shut and 96 had died outside we’d still be having this discussion 30 years on. The police horses were apparently off the ground the crush was so bad outside. Far too many x’s to let one person take the blame. Turbo I have a confession to make. A confession I'm not proud of. My mates offered me a ticket for free to watch an FA cup semi in 1987. No brainer... But the catch was it was Cov Leeds and I'd have to go in the Leeds end. I made a stupid mistake and set off on that Sunday morning. I nearly died.. We got there two hours before kick off. Prime positions right behind the goal. I don't really want to talk about the rest, either the fact I was stood in a scum end, or the fact I nearly crushed to death. But suffice to say when I saw the footage from the semi two years later I knew exactly what had happened. And the enquiries confirmed exactly what I knew. Once you went through the turnstiles you entered an open area then had choices where to go. One option was to go down a tunnel and into the central pen. The day I nearly got crushed I remember vividly looking to the wing pens and seeing it almost empty and thinking "what the fuck". It was surreal and I was lifted off my feet. Duckenfield was in charge in 1989. He could have closed off the central pens. That's why people died. Read the report Hey a good mate of mine was in the same pen in 87. Said he was lucky to get out alive. Absolutely petrified. He was 21 at the time As I’ve said before. The whole of football at the time was a shambles. The ground was a disgrace. Far too many many fans were even worse which was why we ended up with 10 foot perimeter fences and pens at many grounds. I’ve read the report. It calls out many many failings. |
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Nov 28, 2019 23:59:34 GMT 1
Same goes for those turning up at the last minute and trying to get in. The ones that did as they were asked paid the consequences. RIP Yet young children at the front who were blameless, still had blood taken from their lifeless bodies to check alcohol levels. The authorities motives left a stink which is still wafting around 30 years on. Huddersfield Town fans bust a gate down at Hillsborough in the early 60s to get in to a cup match, sold out when the coach got there late. I was back on the coach and missed it. Mind you, we didn't have the M62 major road works to deal with in those days, like the Liverpool fans transport did that day. Exactly why there was a surge on a crush building outside Leppings Lane for going on an hour before. Liverpool with their higher ticket allocation were simply given the wrong end. Very few will agree with this, but i don't care and i ain't gonna argue. That's true but lets remember back in the eighties football hooliganism was still rife and clubs were often allocated the ends related to their approach to the ground. Liverpool fans approaching from the M1, A61 and Forest fans from the city part of Sheffield. Allocating them the opposite ends could have caused its own problems with the fans crossing. |
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Post by terrierneil on Nov 29, 2019 0:03:57 GMT 1
Ive never believed Liverpool fans should be absolved of all blame. That wasn't an orderly queue that formed outside just before kick off and you'd have to be extremely naive IMO to think a fair % of those people weren;t pissed and /or ticketless. Duckenfield was inexperienced and faced with a situation and he made a catastrophic mistake in trying to rectify it that directly lead to 96 deaths. The police conduct afterwards was scandalous but Ive never believed the mistake he made in opening those exit gates was 'criminal'.. it was i believe just a terrible mistake made in good faith as he saw it at that moment. What can you say.. it was horrendous. It effected me badly at the time and still does when i think about it. I was 19 then and so were so many of the victims, for the same reason Id have probably been a victim if it had been Town that day. Id have got there in plenty of time and gone right behind the goal where the best atmosphere is. To me the wrong people were in the dock. This had been waiting to happen for years and there'd been near misses in the years leading up to it that the FA will have known about and done nothing to stop. I have Leeds mates who were there for the 87 semi against Coventry and the exact same thing happened. They say it was truly frightening and just a person stumbling away from being 'Hillsborough' then. Wolves had the same thing in 81 against Spurs. Same end,. same pen for same reason. Should have been the FA officials who kept ignoring the warning signs that were in that dock IMO. 100% correct. Unfortunately accidents are no longer allowed to happen. Duckenfield made errors and his life has been ruined as the scapegoat. I was almost crushed to death at games twice...thankfully those days have gone and to this day I avoid crowds for this reason. The ticketless fan pushing and trying to blag his way in would never be accused of manslaughter and yet had he/she not been there it would never have occurred. Loads will "dislike" this post but overcrowding only occurs when there is an over crowd. The sad events of that day were the cumulative effects of many failings. A terribly misinformed post I'm afraid. There was no overcrowd. It had been proved the stand was not at capacity. The side pens were half empty. The deaths happened because the idiots lead everyone to the central pen. Yes some ticket less fans got in but not a dangerous number. The stand as a whole was not full. Motson even remarks at how empty the stand looks close to kick off time. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 29, 2019 0:05:35 GMT 1
Turbo I have a confession to make. A confession I'm not proud of. My mates offered me a ticket for free to watch an FA cup semi in 1987. No brainer... But the catch was it was Cov Leeds and I'd have to go in the Leeds end. I made a stupid mistake and set off on that Sunday morning. I nearly died.. We got there two hours before kick off. Prime positions right behind the goal. I don't really want to talk about the rest, either the fact I was stood in a scum end, or the fact I nearly crushed to death. But suffice to say when I saw the footage from the semi two years later I knew exactly what had happened. And the enquiries confirmed exactly what I knew. Once you went through the turnstiles you entered an open area then had choices where to go. One option was to go down a tunnel and into the central pen. The day I nearly got crushed I remember vividly looking to the wing pens and seeing it almost empty and thinking "what the fuck". It was surreal and I was lifted off my feet. Duckenfield was in charge in 1989. He could have closed off the central pens. That's why people died. Read the report Hey a good mate of mine was in the same pen in 87. Said he was lucky to get out alive. Absolutely petrified. He was 21 at the time As I’ve said before. The whole of football at the time was a shambles. The ground was a disgrace. Far too many many fans were even worse which was why we ended up with 10 foot perimeter fences and pens at many grounds. I’ve read the report. It calls out many many failings. But the primary reason why people died is because no regard was given to what constituted safe numbers in each of the pens. Of course there are multiple contributory factors, both historically and on the day. But the simple fact is if Duckenfield directs fans to the side pens no one dies |
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Nov 29, 2019 0:14:28 GMT 1
But the call to open to gates was to preserve life outside the stadium. If they had left the gates shut and 96 had died outside we’d still be having this discussion 30 years on. The police horses were apparently off the ground the crush was so bad outside. Far too many x’s to let one person take the blame. Turbo I have a confession to make. A confession I'm not proud of. My mates offered me a ticket for free to watch an FA cup semi in 1987. No brainer... But the catch was it was Cov Leeds and I'd have to go in the Leeds end. I made a stupid mistake and set off on that Sunday morning. I nearly died.. We got there two hours before kick off. Prime positions right behind the goal. I don't really want to talk about the rest, either the fact I was stood in a scum end, or the fact I nearly crushed to death. But suffice to say when I saw the footage from the semi two years later I knew exactly what had happened. And the enquiries confirmed exactly what I knew. Once you went through the turnstiles you entered an open area then had choices where to go. One option was to go down a tunnel and into the central pen. The day I nearly got crushed I remember vividly looking to the wing pens and seeing it almost empty and thinking "what the fuck". It was surreal and I was lifted off my feet. Duckenfield was in charge in 1989. He could have closed off the central pens. That's why people died. Read the report Absolutely, but as somebody who had previously stood in that end, it was obvious to me what caused that tragedy from day one, long before any enquiry. Had that end been one open terrace like the open end at Leeds Road and not separated into pens, then it would never have happened. |
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Nov 29, 2019 0:22:31 GMT 1
I was in a pub in Covent Garden when this happened. I was actually down there working nights doing the fire alarms at Kings X (after the fire there in Nov '87). The difference between tragedies like Hillsborough versus Kings X and Zeebrugge etc. was that there was no requirement for an establishment cover up at KX or Zeebrugge, unlike any tragedies that involve the finger of blame pointing at the Police or potentially having links that people wish to cover up. Remember this was the same force that Thatcher gave carte blanche to knock the fuck out of miners at Orgreave not long before H'boro.
Bernard Ingham also wrote a letter to some bloke in Liverpool in the aftermath, for which he's never apologised for. If H'boro had happened in the last 10yrs and that same letter had seen the light of day publicly I think people would be sickened. I'd even be shocked if any of the pro-Thatcher folk on here defended that letter even now, it was something that was penned by a callous poisonous man. Imagine if anything similar were to be published by such a high profile figure in todays world & in context of a similar tragedy, I expect the outrage would be significant.
That's always been the problem with H'boro - the cover-up, which will have gained support from the very top, from the day after when Thatcher & Ingham visited...
I expect that Grenfell will have some links to some high profile people in the supply chain, particularly those that supply the cladding materials (and not just for Grenfell). That's why that enquiry will drag its heels with the objective of throwing the LFB to the wolves.
So many tragedies that take so long to bring to justice and when it's eventually achieved, they can dilute the charges, the verdicts because the justice system can claim that so much time having passed, witnesses not being around any longer etc. has prevented people like Duckinfield from receiving a fair trial.
The poor bastards, the relatives of the dead, who have lived a nightmare for 30yrs+ probably weren't aware that within 24h, the plan to obfuscate, suppress, lie and spin disgraceful rumours had already started.
Had their been a relative of a cabinet minister who died at H'boro you can almost guarantee that this process would have taken an entirely different course.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 29, 2019 0:28:21 GMT 1
Turbo I have a confession to make. A confession I'm not proud of. My mates offered me a ticket for free to watch an FA cup semi in 1987. No brainer... But the catch was it was Cov Leeds and I'd have to go in the Leeds end. I made a stupid mistake and set off on that Sunday morning. I nearly died.. We got there two hours before kick off. Prime positions right behind the goal. I don't really want to talk about the rest, either the fact I was stood in a scum end, or the fact I nearly crushed to death. But suffice to say when I saw the footage from the semi two years later I knew exactly what had happened. And the enquiries confirmed exactly what I knew. Once you went through the turnstiles you entered an open area then had choices where to go. One option was to go down a tunnel and into the central pen. The day I nearly got crushed I remember vividly looking to the wing pens and seeing it almost empty and thinking "what the fuck". It was surreal and I was lifted off my feet. Duckenfield was in charge in 1989. He could have closed off the central pens. That's why people died. Read the report Absolutely, but as somebody who had previously stood in that end, it was obvious to me what caused that tragedy from day one, long before any enquiry. Had that end been one open terrace like the open end at Leeds Road and not separated into pens, then it would never have happened. True.. But it wasn't. So therefore the guy who gets paid big bucks to make decisions has to do better.... And then to demonise the people he is paid to keep safe is beyond contempt. I wouldn't really want to comment on whether I think he is guilty of manslaughter. But as fuck ups go its up there |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Nov 29, 2019 0:59:55 GMT 1
Absolutely, but as somebody who had previously stood in that end, it was obvious to me what caused that tragedy from day one, long before any enquiry. Had that end been one open terrace like the open end at Leeds Road and not separated into pens, then it would never have happened. True.. But it wasn't. So therefore the guy who gets paid big bucks to make decisions has to do better.... And then to demonise the people he is paid to keep safe is beyond contempt. I wouldn't really want to comment on whether I think he is guilty of manslaughter. But as fuck ups go its up there From the minute the scale of the incident became apparent Duckenfield was removed from the aftermath and the emergency public relations story and cover up. Everything after came from on high and that will never come to a court case. That those who died were killed by many things totally out of their control or any responsibility has for me always been unquestionable. The apportioning of blame was wrong to start with and has been wrong for decades. We see the fire service now being apportioned the first blame in a court when the real reason for the incident was in place for some time before and by luck had not caused death or injury before. Crowds and fires are very fluid and often constantly changing in their movement and where the most or most pressing danger is , they are dealt with on that basis but often time is not available to change a decision made in good faith and with the information or procedures agreed just minutes before the incident changes completely. The cover up on Hillsborough was not started, authorised or co ordinated by a middle ranking police officer, and he simply became the target chosen by those above and fed to the families as the one man to take the blame. He has spent decades waiting to see his fate, it's not in the same ball park as the families but it has made him a very unwell man, whilst those who allowed these games to carry on in a stadium unfit for purpose using strategies that passed each year on sheer fucking luck, and those that took the incident and ran the initial cover up and then a long strategy of keeping the blame targeted in the wrong place are still untouched by it all. It did change football crowds but as usual with the human race there had to be a disaster for everyone in authority to acknowledge they had been running on luck up to then. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Nov 29, 2019 1:06:28 GMT 1
You seriously think that you are kept safe by the police and stewards? Wow Also remember the era, folk always seem to forget the era. Football spiralling down the gutter ,dilapidated grounds, serious violence everywhere, heysel only a few years earlier It was simply a matter of time before something like this happened, and it probably saved football from itself . on crowd behaviour though without police and stewards crowds would act in much more unpredictable ways That was the cause of the terrible error the police made though. There was a severe crush developing outside the turnstyles that needed addressing. Its one of those awfull events where hindsight is everything. If someone had been trampled to death out there, there would have been an outcry as to why the police didn;t open the exit gates to alleviate the crush. But with hindsight we know that was a catastrophic decision but it was made with 'keeping people safe' as its motive. I feel so sorry for the families. Im pretty sure if i was in their shoes Id be gutted at todays ruling because like them Id want what i perceive as justice.. someone to be blamed and punished for what happened to my loved one. I just don;t think Duckenfield is that person. Not talking about what happened afterwards.. thats a different matter,, but at that time , as it was happening, to me he made a call for what he thought were the right reasons. It just turned out to be a terrible call. I don;t think he deserves a criminal punishment for making that mistake and as someone earlier said, hes already been punished just by having his life ruined by what happened. The organisers of the event whod turned a blind eye to the previous warnings that this was very likely to happen are the really culpable ones IMO. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 29, 2019 1:47:58 GMT 1
Slapps I'm sorry mate but what happened outside the turnstiles was not causal to any deaths. If you can find anything in any of the reports which says that then I'll happily bow to your superior wisdom.
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Post by Norn Iron Terrier on Nov 29, 2019 8:48:49 GMT 1
Does anyone know where Duckenfield was between 10am and 2pm according to the families?
The post verdict relative interviews seemed to focus on that, being angry that he was absent from his job between these times and that was one of the main issues? They kept saying they all knew where he was but they didn't say then the radio cut back to the studio and said for legal reasons they cut the live feed?
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 29, 2019 9:04:36 GMT 1
100% correct. Unfortunately accidents are no longer allowed to happen. Duckenfield made errors and his life has been ruined as the scapegoat. I was almost crushed to death at games twice...thankfully those days have gone and to this day I avoid crowds for this reason. The ticketless fan pushing and trying to blag his way in would never be accused of manslaughter and yet had he/she not been there it would never have occurred. Loads will "dislike" this post but overcrowding only occurs when there is an over crowd. The sad events of that day were the cumulative effects of many failings. A terribly misinformed post I'm afraid. There was no overcrowd. It had been proved the stand was not at capacity. The side pens were half empty. The deaths happened because the idiots lead everyone to the central pen. Yes some ticket less fans got in but not a dangerous number. The stand as a whole was not full. Motson even remarks at how empty the stand looks close to kick off time. Distribution of the fans is one thing but don't tell me there were no ticketless fans...there were thousands. |
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Mav
Tom Cowan Terrier
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Post by Mav on Nov 29, 2019 9:14:28 GMT 1
Now that's over will the 'Heysel Investigation' start?
Just Wondering.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Nov 29, 2019 9:29:57 GMT 1
Look beyond the headlines for a change Oti.
Leppings Lane was well known in how different it was from the perspective of crowd control, versus the Kop end.
Duckinfield was put in charge when the guy who knew what he was doing could still have taken charge, despite the disciplinary action being taken against him at the time.
The lies by this bloke for years afterwards mean he was culpable in allowing this to go on for much longer than it should have done. He might well claim illness and stress but it's all his own doing.
How many ticketless Forest fans do you think there were?
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Post by Porrohman on Nov 29, 2019 9:37:42 GMT 1
Now that's over will the 'Heysel Investigation' start? Just Wondering. Doubt it, its the 35 year anniversary in May. I wonder how much coverage the media will give to it. Sod all like usual is my guess. |
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Post by 28901 on Nov 29, 2019 10:12:31 GMT 1
Yet young children at the front who were blameless, still had blood taken from their lifeless bodies to check alcohol levels. The authorities motives left a stink which is still wafting around 30 years on. Huddersfield Town fans bust a gate down at Hillsborough in the early 60s to get in to a cup match, sold out when the coach got there late. I was back on the coach and missed it. Mind you, we didn't have the M62 major road works to deal with in those days, like the Liverpool fans transport did that day. Exactly why there was a surge on a crush building outside Leppings Lane for going on an hour before. Liverpool with their higher ticket allocation were simply given the wrong end. Very few will agree with this, but i don't care and i ain't gonna argue. That's true but lets remember back in the eighties football hooliganism was still rife and clubs were often allocated the ends related to their approach to the ground. Liverpool fans approaching from the M1, A61 and Forest fans from the city part of Sheffield. Allocating them the opposite ends could have caused its own problems with the fans crossing. Correct, and the same reason Leeds had that end and Coventry had the Kop end when there was a near tragedy in 1987, mentioned by some on here. I've been in that end several times, once you go down that central tunnel there is no way back or out with fences either side and in front of you. Incredible that no one realised it when you look at it, it really was waiting to happen.
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Champers
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by Champers on Nov 29, 2019 10:22:02 GMT 1
A terribly misinformed post I'm afraid. There was no overcrowd. It had been proved the stand was not at capacity. The side pens were half empty. The deaths happened because the idiots lead everyone to the central pen. Yes some ticket less fans got in but not a dangerous number. The stand as a whole was not full. Motson even remarks at how empty the stand looks close to kick off time. Distribution of the fans is one thing but don't tell me there were no ticketless fans...there were thousands. Whether there was or whether there wasn't, an inquest has absolved ALL supporters outside the ground of any blame, so your point is moot. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 10:26:39 GMT 1
Now that's over will the 'Heysel Investigation' start? Just Wondering. Never seems to be remembered by some !! . Those Liverpool fans who were jailed for manslaughter had pittance of a sentence . |
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Wow
. To say that LFC fans were in the wrong is NOT to blame those who died, and yet it's been painted that way from the start. All that having been said I feel like you do, in that the enquiry has pinpointed what was clearly an organisational shambles as the cause of the tragedy, and that's good enough for me because the 'establishment' wouldn't come to that conclusion unless it were true. As for Duckenfield, it's clear that he was out of his depth. In that case I'd rather see charges brought against the Police force as a whole, or at least the fella who put him in charge as well as DD himself. Whoever his boss is surely had a responsibility for proper training? All in all I'm glad it's now over and I hope people find peace despite their disappointment at today's verdict.
