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Post by Captainslapper on Nov 29, 2019 10:30:35 GMT 1
Slapps I'm sorry mate but what happened outside the turnstiles was not causal to any deaths. If you can find anything in any of the reports which says that then I'll happily bow to your superior wisdom. no need to bow to me ted, but you surely accept they didn;t open those exit gates to allow all those people to surge in for fun did they? That obviously caused a sudden mass movement into the ground and down that tunnel just prior to the crush happening so I don;t get how you can say what was happening outside was not a major part of what lead to the deaths. If they were formed into an orderly queue outside, those gates wouldn;t have been opened! I agree the police should have blocked off the tunnel. Another mistake. Theres many things that 'should' have happened by all sorts of people that would have prevented the disaster, and many of them weren;t mistakes made in the heat of the moment like Duckenfield's, but mistakes made despite the luxury of time and previous experience such as the FAs.
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iangreaves
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
[M0:0]
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Post by iangreaves on Nov 29, 2019 10:58:15 GMT 1
The establishment looks after its own. Sad to say, it’s just getting worse with the likes of Trump in the US and mini-Trump here, who lie openly and break the law with no comeback. Grenfell happened because people broke the law by surrounding peoples’ homes with flammable material. Politicians supported them. The so-called inquiry blamed the brave men and women who ran into the flames to save lives. I’m glad I’m nearer the end than the beginning, but God help the younger generation.
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 29, 2019 11:32:35 GMT 1
Distribution of the fans is one thing but don't tell me there were no ticketless fans...there were thousands. Whether there was or whether there wasn't, an inquest has absolved ALL supporters outside the ground of any blame, so your point is moot. And the court has cleared Duckenfield of manslaughter. Touche.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 29, 2019 11:40:36 GMT 1
Whether there was or whether there wasn't, an inquest has absolved ALL supporters outside the ground of any blame, so your point is moot. And the court has cleared Duckenfield of manslaughter. Touche. I think of you as a learned man? Clearing someone of manslaughter is not quite the same as absolving someone from any blame
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drewden
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,769
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Post by drewden on Nov 29, 2019 11:40:57 GMT 1
The establishment looks after its own. Sad to say, it’s just getting worse with the likes of Trump in the US and mini-Trump here, who lie openly and break the law with no comeback. Grenfell happened because people broke the law by surrounding peoples’ homes with flammable material. Politicians supported them. The so-called inquiry blamed the brave men and women who ran into the flames to save lives. I’m glad I’m nearer the end than the beginning, but God help the younger generation. Quite agree the establishment, say no more. Here's another one in the mix, Prince Andrew, why on earth has he not been hauled up in front of the courts to give evidence!, funny how Epstein died in jail, coincidence, my arse. It really annoys me when cover ups take off.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Nov 29, 2019 11:58:55 GMT 1
Slapps I'm sorry mate but what happened outside the turnstiles was not causal to any deaths. If you can find anything in any of the reports which says that then I'll happily bow to your superior wisdom. no need to bow to me ted, but you surely accept they didn;t open those exit gates to allow all those people to surge in for fun did they? That obviously caused a sudden mass movement into the ground and down that tunnel just prior to the crush happening so I don;t get how you can say what was happening outside was not a major part of what lead to the deaths. If they were formed into an orderly queue outside, those gates wouldn;t have been opened! I agree the police should have blocked off the tunnel. Another mistake. Theres many things that 'should' have happened by all sorts of people that would have prevented the disaster, and many of them weren;t mistakes made in the heat of the moment like Duckenfield's, but mistakes made despite the luxury of time and previous experience such as the FAs. "If they formed an orderly queue" How often do you drive past Leppings Lane Slapps? I do quite regularly. It's like a funnel compared to the Penistone Rd entrances at the Kop end. That was the ONLY entrance available to the Liverpool supporters that day, despite them having a bigger ticket allocation than Forest and having been allocated some of the North stand. Maybe they should have queued all the way through Hillsborough Park?
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Post by drumriggend on Nov 29, 2019 12:06:42 GMT 1
The fans at hillsbro were killed by football hooliganism.. It was rife in england in the 70s and 80s.. Thats why the normal fans were treated like cattle and herded in to cages.. No fences at hillsbro- no deaths.. Yes the police made mistakes.. Remember It was not long after another liverpool inspired disaster- heysel.. but.. Every football hooligan played their part in those deaths..
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drewden
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by drewden on Nov 29, 2019 12:14:25 GMT 1
Who remembers the surges and crushing in the cowshed in the 70s, times that by 100 and you have what you had that day at Hillsborough, very frightening thought.
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Post by Captainslapper on Nov 29, 2019 12:59:48 GMT 1
no need to bow to me ted, but you surely accept they didn;t open those exit gates to allow all those people to surge in for fun did they? That obviously caused a sudden mass movement into the ground and down that tunnel just prior to the crush happening so I don;t get how you can say what was happening outside was not a major part of what lead to the deaths. If they were formed into an orderly queue outside, those gates wouldn;t have been opened! I agree the police should have blocked off the tunnel. Another mistake. Theres many things that 'should' have happened by all sorts of people that would have prevented the disaster, and many of them weren;t mistakes made in the heat of the moment like Duckenfield's, but mistakes made despite the luxury of time and previous experience such as the FAs. "If they formed an orderly queue" How often do you drive past Leppings Lane Slapps? I do quite regularly. It's like a funnel compared to the Penistone Rd entrances at the Kop end. That was the ONLY entrance available to the Liverpool supporters that day, despite them having a bigger ticket allocation than Forest and having been allocated some of the North stand. Maybe they should have queued all the way through Hillsborough Park? Ive been through those turnstiles many times. It is a funnel youre right. Another reason why Hillsborough shouldn't have been used. Not sure that stops you forming some sort of queue to get in though. The funnel effect of that area, the ticketing,,, all contribute to the situation that developed outside those turnstiles, but Ive never agreed with the argument the behaviour of those Liverpool fans wasn't also a major contributing factor. What will always be an unknown is how many joined that late rush without a ticket in the hope gates would be opened to gain access.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Nov 29, 2019 13:09:41 GMT 1
Sadly, this will run & run... There are many things out there that highlight the disgraceful behaviour of top end politics with stuff like this, but this is a short excerpt from wiki as to why this bloke needed to face some sort of music. I doubt there are any on here that can speak from first hand experience of being shafted in such a manner by the authorities after losing loved ones (which in itself is a good thing), but just try and put yourself in their shoes for just 5 mins & contemplate why many are still so angry about this... The last paragraph demonstrates how these people have no morals in changing their position yrs and yrs later to satisfy the mood of the time, then revert back when ever the mood changes. These people are out & out shithouses at the very best...
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In their history of The Sun,[238] Peter Chippendale and Chris Horrie wrote:
As MacKenzie's layout was seen by more and more people, a collective shudder ran through the office (but) MacKenzie's dominance was so total there was nobody left in the organisation who could rein him in except Murdoch. (Everyone in the office) seemed paralysed—"looking like rabbits in the headlights"—as one hack described them. The error staring them in the face was too glaring. It obviously wasn't a silly mistake; nor was it a simple oversight. Nobody really had any comment on it—they just took one look and went away shaking their heads in wonder at the enormity of it. It was a 'classic smear'.
After The Sun's report, the newspaper was boycotted by most newsagents in Liverpool and many readers cancelled their orders and refused to buy it from newsagents; and from then afterwards many in Liverpool refer to The Sun newspaper as The Scum.[239] Some even refuse to say the name or spell it as The S*n. The Hillsborough Justice Campaign organised a less successful national boycott that had some impact on the paper's sales nationally.[240]
MacKenzie explained his actions in 1993. Talking to a House of Commons National Heritage Select Committee, he said: "I regret Hillsborough. It was a fundamental mistake. The mistake was I believed what an MP said. It was a Tory MP. If he had not said it and the Chief Superintendent had not agreed with it, we would not have gone with it."[241] MacKenzie retracted the apology in November 2006, saying he apologised because the newspaper's owner, Rupert Murdoch, had ordered him to do so, stating: "I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now".[242] MacKenzie refused to apologise when appearing on the BBC's topical Question Time on 11 January 2007.[243]
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Nov 29, 2019 13:28:58 GMT 1
The fans at hillsbro were killed by football hooliganism.. It was rife in england in the 70s and 80s.. Thats why the normal fans were treated like cattle and herded in to cages.. No fences at hillsbro- no deaths.. Yes the police made mistakes.. Remember It was not long after another liverpool inspired disaster- heysel.. but.. Every football hooligan played their part in those deaths.. There's a lot of truth in that. Certainly in the 70's & 80's, if you were any away fan you were all treated as hooligans at many grounds. You could have been wearing a three piece suit and a Bowler hat and you'd have still been herded like cattle. I think the blame lies on both sides of the fence. The police/football authorities were extremely negligent, but despite what the reports may have said, there's no doubt in my mind that some of the supporters played their part as well.
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Post by terrierneil on Nov 29, 2019 13:35:45 GMT 1
A terribly misinformed post I'm afraid. There was no overcrowd. It had been proved the stand was not at capacity. The side pens were half empty. The deaths happened because the idiots lead everyone to the central pen. Yes some ticket less fans got in but not a dangerous number. The stand as a whole was not full. Motson even remarks at how empty the stand looks close to kick off time. Distribution of the fans is one thing but don't tell me there were no ticketless fans...there were thousands. Lol. Where did I say that? I said there WERE ticketless fans. But was there a dangerous number? No because the stand was not full. How do you know there were thousands? How can anyone know who had a ticket and who didn't when they opened the gates? After first lying and saying the fans forced the gates open then changing the story to the police opened the gates but that's another story.... How can ticket checks be done when the gates have been thrown open for anyone to get in??
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 29, 2019 13:54:34 GMT 1
Slapps I'm sorry mate but what happened outside the turnstiles was not causal to any deaths. If you can find anything in any of the reports which says that then I'll happily bow to your superior wisdom. no need to bow to me ted, but you surely accept they didn;t open those exit gates to allow all those people to surge in for fun did they? That obviously caused a sudden mass movement into the ground and down that tunnel just prior to the crush happening so I don;t get how you can say what was happening outside was not a major part of what lead to the deaths. If they were formed into an orderly queue outside, those gates wouldn;t have been opened! I agree the police should have blocked off the tunnel. Another mistake. Theres many things that 'should' have happened by all sorts of people that would have prevented the disaster, and many of them weren;t mistakes made in the heat of the moment like Duckenfield's, but mistakes made despite the luxury of time and previous experience such as the FAs. The gates being opened didn't lead to a crush on the terraces. It led to a conglomeration of people in the large area inside the stadium from where people could have have been fanned left and right.. It wasbt a desirable situation but it had nothing to do with the crush. The crush was caused by poor management on the day, with huge of swathes of space in some pens whilst people were dying in the central pen.
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Post by bluesandtwos on Nov 29, 2019 14:32:44 GMT 1
Ive never believed Liverpool fans should be absolved of all blame. That wasn't an orderly queue that formed outside just before kick off and you'd have to be extremely naive IMO to think a fair % of those people weren;t pissed and /or ticketless. Duckenfield was inexperienced and faced with a situation and he made a catastrophic mistake in trying to rectify it that directly lead to 96 deaths. The police conduct afterwards was scandalous but Ive never believed the mistake he made in opening those exit gates was 'criminal'.. it was i believe just a terrible mistake made in good faith as he saw it at that moment. What can you say.. it was horrendous. It effected me badly at the time and still does when i think about it. I was 19 then and so were so many of the victims, for the same reason Id have probably been a victim if it had been Town that day. Id have got there in plenty of time and gone right behind the goal where the best atmosphere is. To me the wrong people were in the dock. This had been waiting to happen for years and there'd been near misses in the years leading up to it that the FA will have known about and done nothing to stop. I have Leeds mates who were there for the 87 semi against Coventry and the exact same thing happened. They say it was truly frightening and just a person stumbling away from being 'Hillsborough' then. Wolves had the same thing in 81 against Spurs. Same end,. same pen for same reason. Should have been the FA officials who kept ignoring the warning signs that were in that dock IMO. 100% correct. Unfortunately accidents are no longer allowed to happen. Duckenfield made errors and his life has been ruined as the scapegoat. I was almost crushed to death at games twice...thankfully those days have gone and to this day I avoid crowds for this reason. The ticketless fan pushing and trying to blag his way in would never be accused of manslaughter and yet had he/she not been there it would never have occurred. Loads will "dislike" this post but overcrowding only occurs when there is an over crowd. The sad events of that day were the cumulative effects of many failings. As lads we used to stand in front of one of the small metal barriers to stop being swept down the terrace when one of the frequent surges occurred. It wasn't that the stand was over full it just happened, and anyone who stood on any football terrace knew this back then. The sledgehammer approach to football hooliganism, putting fans in cages, was always going to eventually cause an issue like the one at Hillsborough. There was a total disregard for the safety of fans and that was from all quarters. Many of the people making the decisions had no experience to guide them and the authorities on the ground that day did not consider the safety of the fans. There may have been more people in there than there should have been but if they had to go through the turnstiles it would have been a trickle and not a surge. There were criminal acts afterwards regarding doctored police statements and Duckenfield admitted to some of those under oath, and he was ultimately in charge. The families of the 96 suffered through the loss of their loved ones and the shameful attempts by the police and some media to shift the blame onto the fans when the authorities knew where the blame lay. This is a major factor in the pursuit of justice by the families of the 96. If failings had been admitted and accepted there would have been repercussions for those people concerned but this would have had a line drawn under it many years ago. These families feel very bitter about the way they and their loved ones have been portrayed and treated, and rightly so. So although it is not just about Duckenfield he has become the focus, and this verdict just leaves all those people feeling like they will never fully see justice and never have closure. I cannot begin to understand how that must feel.
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Post by Torquayterrier on Nov 29, 2019 15:14:38 GMT 1
no need to bow to me ted, but you surely accept they didn;t open those exit gates to allow all those people to surge in for fun did they? That obviously caused a sudden mass movement into the ground and down that tunnel just prior to the crush happening so I don;t get how you can say what was happening outside was not a major part of what lead to the deaths. If they were formed into an orderly queue outside, those gates wouldn;t have been opened! I agree the police should have blocked off the tunnel. Another mistake. Theres many things that 'should' have happened by all sorts of people that would have prevented the disaster, and many of them weren;t mistakes made in the heat of the moment like Duckenfield's, but mistakes made despite the luxury of time and previous experience such as the FAs. "If they formed an orderly queue" How often do you drive past Leppings Lane Slapps? I do quite regularly. It's like a funnel compared to the Penistone Rd entrances at the Kop end. That was the ONLY entrance available to the Liverpool supporters that day, despite them having a bigger ticket allocation than Forest and having been allocated some of the North stand. Maybe they should have queued all the way through Hillsborough Park? Last time I went to Hillsborough I caught the tram in from Meadowhall and that takes you to Leppings Lane. I don't think I'd actually gone in that route before and like you it struck me as being like a funnel. Maybe it's natural to be influenced after a tragedy like that but as you walk in that way it just feels ' accident waiting to happen'. I used to get that feeling at milmoor down that dark lane at the side of the ground but by then neither us nor Rotherham were pulling in really big crowds.
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Post by Captainslapper on Nov 29, 2019 15:30:10 GMT 1
no need to bow to me ted, but you surely accept they didn;t open those exit gates to allow all those people to surge in for fun did they? That obviously caused a sudden mass movement into the ground and down that tunnel just prior to the crush happening so I don;t get how you can say what was happening outside was not a major part of what lead to the deaths. If they were formed into an orderly queue outside, those gates wouldn;t have been opened! I agree the police should have blocked off the tunnel. Another mistake. Theres many things that 'should' have happened by all sorts of people that would have prevented the disaster, and many of them weren;t mistakes made in the heat of the moment like Duckenfield's, but mistakes made despite the luxury of time and previous experience such as the FAs. The gates being opened didn't lead to a crush on the terraces. It led to a conglomeration of people in the large area inside the stadium from where people could have have been fanned left and right.. It wasbt a desirable situation but it had nothing to do with the crush. The crush was caused by poor management on the day, with huge of swathes of space in some pens whilst people were dying in the central pen. Sorry but hat doesn;t make any sense ted IMO. If those people HAD been fanned left or right ( and I agree they should have been ) then yeah, opening the gates wouldn;t have caused the crush. But they weren't.. they piled down the central tunnel.. creating the crush in that central pen. If they didn;t feel they had to open those gates ( a disasterous decision but made in good faith on the grounds of public safety ironically ) , the disaster wouldn;t have happened.
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Post by Captainslapper on Nov 29, 2019 15:38:08 GMT 1
100% correct. Unfortunately accidents are no longer allowed to happen. Duckenfield made errors and his life has been ruined as the scapegoat. I was almost crushed to death at games twice...thankfully those days have gone and to this day I avoid crowds for this reason. The ticketless fan pushing and trying to blag his way in would never be accused of manslaughter and yet had he/she not been there it would never have occurred. Loads will "dislike" this post but overcrowding only occurs when there is an over crowd. The sad events of that day were the cumulative effects of many failings. As lads we used to stand in front of one of the small metal barriers to stop being swept down the terrace when one of the frequent surges occurred. It wasn't that the stand was over full it just happened, and anyone who stood on any football terrace knew this back then. The sledgehammer approach to football hooliganism, putting fans in cages, was always going to eventually cause an issue like the one at Hillsborough. There was a total disregard for the safety of fans and that was from all quarters. Many of the people making the decisions had no experience to guide them and the authorities on the ground that day did not consider the safety of the fans. There may have been more people in there than there should have been but if they had to go through the turnstiles it would have been a trickle and not a surge. There were criminal acts afterwards regarding doctored police statements and Duckenfield admitted to some of those under oath, and he was ultimately in charge. The families of the 96 suffered through the loss of their loved ones and the shameful attempts by the police and some media to shift the blame onto the fans when the authorities knew where the blame lay. This is a major factor in the pursuit of justice by the families of the 96. If failings had been admitted and accepted there would have been repercussions for those people concerned but this would have had a line drawn under it many years ago. These families feel very bitter about the way they and their loved ones have been portrayed and treated, and rightly so. So although it is not just about Duckenfield he has become the focus, and this verdict just leaves all those people feeling like they will never fully see justice and never have closure. I cannot begin to understand how that must feel.Totally agree with that. Can't imagine the pain of those families even all these years later.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 29, 2019 15:54:59 GMT 1
The gates being opened didn't lead to a crush on the terraces. It led to a conglomeration of people in the large area inside the stadium from where people could have have been fanned left and right.. It wasbt a desirable situation but it had nothing to do with the crush. The crush was caused by poor management on the day, with huge of swathes of space in some pens whilst people were dying in the central pen. Sorry but hat doesn;t make any sense ted IMO. If those people HAD been fanned left or right ( and I agree they should have been ) then yeah, opening the gates wouldn;t have caused the crush. But they weren't.. they piled down the central tunnel.. creating the crush in that central pen. If they didn;t feel they had to open those gates ( a disasterous decision but made in good faith on the grounds of public safety ironically ) , the disaster wouldn;t have happened. You're not making sense to me either... There were a while load of people in "no man's land".. They were allowed (forget the "piled" bit. Is that even relevant). They were freely allowed without discouragement to pack into an already toxic space.. That's what killed people. I'm struggling to see which bit you don't understand..? Maybe read a synopsis of the report which will back up what I'm saying tbh.. I'm mean how far do you go? You could argue if there were no people there no one would have died. If football hadn't been invented no one would have died. Where does it end? It's not ideal having a swathe of people in the no man's land. But there was no attempt to discourage them from going down a tunnel where they would kill people.. Despite a controller sat there watching it all unfold.. Who then blamed others for his own incompetence.. I won't respond further to you. Maybe read the reports
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Post by Captainslapper on Nov 29, 2019 16:16:26 GMT 1
We're agreeing on various things but we aren't going to agree on whether Liverpool fans behaviour was also part of the cause of the disaster.
The reports? There seemed a political directive to entirely blame the supporters in the immediate aftermath but its like theres been a political directive to entirely absolve them of all blame ever since. Neither are true IMO.
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Post by drumriggend on Nov 29, 2019 16:41:23 GMT 1
We're agreeing on various things but we aren't going to agree on whether Liverpool fans behaviour was also part of the cause of the disaster. The reports? There seemed a political directive to entirely blame the supporters in the immediate aftermath but its like theres been a political directive to entirely absolve them of all blame ever since. Neither are true IMO. Dont diss the bin dippers.. They were all there on time.. They all had tickets.. They were all sober.. And they all formed an orderly queue whilst softly singing "ferry cross the mersey"".. It was the bizzies fault.. 😵
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Post by rastrick32 on Nov 29, 2019 18:24:22 GMT 1
We're agreeing on various things but we aren't going to agree on whether Liverpool fans behaviour was also part of the cause of the disaster. The reports? There seemed a political directive to entirely blame the supporters in the immediate aftermath but its like theres been a political directive to entirely absolve them of all blame ever since. Neither are true IMO. Dont diss the bin dippers.. They were all there on time.. They all had tickets.. They were all sober.. And they all formed an orderly queue whilst softly singing "ferry cross the mersey"".. It was the bizzies fault.. 😵 Please remember that real people, football fans like us, died horribly, including children.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 29, 2019 19:17:26 GMT 1
Dont diss the bin dippers.. They were all there on time.. They all had tickets.. They were all sober.. And they all formed an orderly queue whilst softly singing "ferry cross the mersey"".. It was the bizzies fault.. 😵 Please remember that real people, football fans like us, died horribly, including children. Correct.. Some things just aren't funny and never will be.. Even to an alcoholic one would think but hey ho he never fails to disappoint
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Post by drumriggend on Nov 29, 2019 20:23:32 GMT 1
Please remember that real people, football fans like us, died horribly, including children. Correct.. Some things just aren't funny and never will be.. Even to an alcoholic one would think but hey ho he never fails to disappoint Ey up.. Its chippy.. Or is it teddy.. Fook noes.. Anyroad .. Im not an alkhorlick.. I just like a slurp.. Nowt wrong wi that.. Try nit to get offended mr liberal.. 🍻
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 29, 2019 21:03:39 GMT 1
And the court has cleared Duckenfield of manslaughter. Touche. I think of you as a learned man? Clearing someone of manslaughter is not quite the same as absolving someone from any blame He accepted some of the blame....that's a gimme. He was not guilty of manslaughter.
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 29, 2019 21:07:33 GMT 1
Distribution of the fans is one thing but don't tell me there were no ticketless fans...there were thousands. Lol. Where did I say that? I said there WERE ticketless fans. But was there a dangerous number? No because the stand was not full. How do you know there were thousands? How can anyone know who had a ticket and who didn't when they opened the gates? After first lying and saying the fans forced the gates open then changing the story to the police opened the gates but that's another story.... How can ticket checks be done when the gates have been thrown open for anyone to get in?? As a man who went to lots of big games in the 80's I know what went on.....particularly with Man Utd and Liverpool. Ever heard of "jibbing it in"? I lived 20 years in Manchester and worked a lot in Liverpool....it went with the Saturday territory. I once met 40 Scousers on a train in Europe following England....not a ticket for the train or the match between them...some did not even have a passport!
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Post by Leporid on Nov 29, 2019 21:26:14 GMT 1
A terribly misinformed post I'm afraid. There was no overcrowd. It had been proved the stand was not at capacity. The side pens were half empty. The deaths happened because the idiots lead everyone to the central pen. Yes some ticket less fans got in but not a dangerous number. The stand as a whole was not full. Motson even remarks at how empty the stand looks close to kick off time. Distribution of the fans is one thing but don't tell me there were no ticketless fans...there were thousands. Given your research into this following the various investigations, investigations and inquiries, can you tell us how many ticketless fans there were? Round figures will do.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Nov 29, 2019 21:26:30 GMT 1
I think of you as a learned man? Clearing someone of manslaughter is not quite the same as absolving someone from any blame He accepted some of the blame....that's a gimme. He was not guilty of manslaughter. Do you think him (& others) would have been found guilty of manslaughter or something akin to that... ...if they'd all told the truth all those yrs ago and what came out 28yrs after the event had actually been concluded in the early 90's? I expect they would have been. Had that happened I also expect they would long since have finished their sentences and probably moved on with their lives to some degree. The authorities have conspired to create a life of absolute despair for the families of the victims. Who do you think pays for this ongoing saga as well? It won't be any of the higher ups that's for sure. Some people have got a real twisted sense of justice about this, given all the evidence that's been out there for some time. I'm not a big fan of Liverpool supporters when it comes to football, but this is about normal folk fighting an almighty injustice. The fact that they're scouse seems to blur the lines for some people.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Nov 29, 2019 21:30:15 GMT 1
Lol. Where did I say that? I said there WERE ticketless fans. But was there a dangerous number? No because the stand was not full. How do you know there were thousands? How can anyone know who had a ticket and who didn't when they opened the gates? After first lying and saying the fans forced the gates open then changing the story to the police opened the gates but that's another story.... How can ticket checks be done when the gates have been thrown open for anyone to get in?? As a man who went to lots of big games in the 80's I know what went on.....particularly with Man Utd and Liverpool. Ever heard of "jibbing it in"? I lived 20 years in Manchester and worked a lot in Liverpool....it went with the Saturday territory. I once met 40 Scousers on a train in Europe following England....not a ticket for the train or the match between them...some did not even have a passport! Some of the stuff you've done eh Oti... You either don't sleep, or are actually 156 years old...
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 29, 2019 21:32:01 GMT 1
Distribution of the fans is one thing but don't tell me there were no ticketless fans...there were thousands. Given your research into this following the various investigations, investigations and inquiries, can you tell us how many ticketless fans there were? Round figures will do. Not hundreds....thousands. I have zero doubt.
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Post by 28901 on Nov 29, 2019 21:33:46 GMT 1
Lol. Where did I say that? I said there WERE ticketless fans. But was there a dangerous number? No because the stand was not full. How do you know there were thousands? How can anyone know who had a ticket and who didn't when they opened the gates? After first lying and saying the fans forced the gates open then changing the story to the police opened the gates but that's another story.... How can ticket checks be done when the gates have been thrown open for anyone to get in?? As a man who went to lots of big games in the 80's I know what went on.....particularly with Man Utd and Liverpool. Ever heard of "jibbing it in"? I lived 20 years in Manchester and worked a lot in Liverpool....it went with the Saturday territory. I once met 40 Scousers on a train in Europe following England....not a ticket for the train or the match between them...some did not even have a passport! If I added up all the years you have claimed to live in different parts of the world on here I reckon you would be around 300 years old.
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