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Post by benhomly on Jul 14, 2020 14:38:43 GMT 1
I am struggling to think of another walk of life where someone can invest millions of pounds with very little prospect of being repaid, and choosing to do so out of love/passion, and then the beneficiaries of that generosity feel they have the moral high ground to criticise them for asking for what they are owed when it becomes clear that the investment has meant you can now more than pay it back. Look just a little south to tonight's opponents. They are breaking the rules left right and centre. Look across the Pennines at Wigan. Or at Derby. We are, relatively speaking, lucky to have had owners who had the club's best interests at heart. I genuinely believe that Dean kept a 25% stake as a safety net - he can be the white knight again if we need him. But why he'd want to when there are so many short-sighted folk is beyond me. Yes, he may be wealthy enough not to need the money back, but why should he just it goodbye? He's not taken out more than he put in, far from it. And he nearly fucking died in post. I heard that twice his family were told to drop everything and get to the hospital. We should be naming a stand after him or something, not sniping at him because since he left the club's gone to shit. Seriously?
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Post by overtonterrierspirit on Jul 14, 2020 14:50:52 GMT 1
This could roll on forever. I can't really recall one instance of where a Chairman or CEO has lasted their full tenure and been universally lauded throughout. There may be some exceptions, I just can't think of any. So it was always going to end like this at some point, football fans are amongst the most fickle and two faced bastards on the planet. You have to kiss a lot of frogs as the saying goes. Not that long ago I think some on here would never have imagined HTFC supporters talking about 8 figure transfer fees (regardless of how shite some were) & figures of tens of £m's around club finances. Despite the misery and moaning we're probably in much better shape than tons of other clubs, but some folk have become too accustomed to being spoilt... Just enjoy the fecking ride!!! Understand your point apart from the comment regarding fans being “spoilt “ Forgetting the welcome increase in our fan base in recent years , many of us have followed Town for decades in the lower leagues not just since our promotion season. Why is it wrong , after witnessing our brief spell of success , not to want to return to the dark old days of Divs 1 and 2? Surely it’s only natural for fans to be disappointed and discontented with the events of the last few years.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jul 14, 2020 14:52:19 GMT 1
I am struggling to think of another walk of life where someone can invest millions of pounds with very little prospect of being repaid, and choosing to do so out of love/passion, and then the beneficiaries of that generosity feel they have the moral high ground to criticise them for asking for what they are owed when it becomes clear that the investment has meant you can now more than pay it back. Look just a little south to tonight's opponents. They are breaking the rules left right and centre. Look across the Pennines at Wigan. Or at Derby. We are, relatively speaking, lucky to have had owners who had the club's best interests at heart. I genuinely believe that Dean kept a 25% stake as a safety net - he can be the white knight again if we need him. But why he'd want to when there are so many short-sighted folk is beyond me. Yes, he may be wealthy enough not to need the money back, but why should he just it goodbye? He's not taken out more than he put in, far from it. And he nearly fucking died in post. I heard that twice his family were told to drop everything and get to the hospital. We should be naming a stand after him or something, not sniping at him because since he left the club's gone to shit. Seriously? It's all relative but we do seem to be lurching from crisis to crisis.
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Amigo
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Amigo on Jul 14, 2020 15:00:32 GMT 1
Anyone who is annoyed at our situaton and blames Dean Hoyle is absolutley right! Without him we cold only dream of being at the bottom end of the Championship So that's our benchmark is it? What you say is factually correct but if that is the sum total of what we should aim to achieve then why bother? Come and support Huddersfield Town but don't anticipate being any better than bottom of the Championship, despite having had two seasons in the Premier League. It's hardly a great argument is it? Daft argument really, if the sole aim of supporting a team was the hope of getting to the Premier League then more than half the teams from League 1 down through non league wouldn't have any fans in that case. I didn't start supporting Town because I thought we had a fantastic 5 or 10 year plan for greatness and measured it up against other local clubs in the area to work out which I thought had the best future. Getting to the Premier League has only created division and disdain between players, the club and fans.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Jul 14, 2020 15:11:19 GMT 1
This could roll on forever. I can't really recall one instance of where a Chairman or CEO has lasted their full tenure and been universally lauded throughout. There may be some exceptions, I just can't think of any. So it was always going to end like this at some point, football fans are amongst the most fickle and two faced bastards on the planet. You have to kiss a lot of frogs as the saying goes. Not that long ago I think some on here would never have imagined HTFC supporters talking about 8 figure transfer fees (regardless of how shite some were) & figures of tens of £m's around club finances. Despite the misery and moaning we're probably in much better shape than tons of other clubs, but some folk have become too accustomed to being spoilt... Just enjoy the fecking ride!!! Understand your point apart from the comment regarding fans being “spoilt “ Forgetting the welcome increase in our fan base in recent years , many of us have followed Town for decades in the lower leagues not just since our promotion season. Why is it wrong , after witnessing our brief spell of success , not to want to return to the dark old days of Divs 1 and 2? Surely it’s only natural for fans to be disappointed and discontented with the events of the last few years. I just don't get why people get so stressed about it, especially when you compare it to clubs who have had utter shithouses as Chairmen. Disappointment is part of the deal for 90% of clubs. I prefer the roller coaster to the tepid nature of a mega rich owner buying up talent and building training grounds that are ten times better than some L1 & L2 grounds. I know some on here won't believe me, but give me HTFC any day, over the Man C's of the game. I'd be bored to tears winning at least one trophy every season...
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htfc63
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by htfc63 on Jul 14, 2020 15:43:59 GMT 1
What people forget is that Dean put his life on hold for 10 years to totally immerse himself in the chairman role. He attended training sessions , watched our academy players, attended countless club and league meetings and supported staff who he had put his trust in. Sadly this nearly cost him his life when he became extremely ill. Over his period of time as Chairman he earned little and I think I am right in saying he did not take any payment unlike directors such as Karen Brady at West Ham and even all other members of our board. At the Card factory he was fortunate to put his trust in dedicated and creative individuals who helped him to build the company to the success it was. Unfortunately at Huddersfield he took bad advice from those around him who were supposedly more football savvy and yes he made mistakes with some appointments. I would much rather we had a fan at the helm so whilst Phil may not have Deans wealth I am sure he has the best interests of the club at heart. What galls me these days are mercenary player's and agents who put cash before club and we still have some of these on board. Hopefully common sense will prevail and salary caps will also be introduced into the championship otherwise clubs will be driven into the ground and fans will become even more disillusioned with the the lack of reality regarding player and staff wages and the amount of effort many are prepared to put in.
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Post by benhomly on Jul 14, 2020 15:56:07 GMT 1
What people forget is that Dean put his life on hold for 10 years to totally immerse himself in the chairman role. He attended training sessions , watched our academy players, attended countless club and league meetings and supported staff who he had put his trust in. Sadly this nearly cost him his life when he became extremely ill. Over his period of time as Chairman he earned little and I think I am right in saying he did not take any payment unlike directors such as Karen Brady at West Ham and even all other members of our board. At the Card factory he was fortunate to put his trust in dedicated and creative individuals who helped him to build the company to the success it was. Unfortunately at Huddersfield he took bad advice from those around him who were supposedly more football savvy and yes he made mistakes with some appointments. I would much rather we had a fan at the helm so whilst Phil may not have Deans wealth I am sure he has the best interests of the club at heart. What galls me these days are mercenary player's and agents who put cash before club and we still have some of these on board. Hopefully common sense will prevail and salary caps will also be introduced into the championship otherwise clubs will be driven into the ground and fans will become even more disillusioned with the the lack of reality regarding player and staff wages and the amount of effort many are prepared to put in. You put your life on hold to give up everything to look after a sick relative not run a football club.
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htfc63
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by htfc63 on Jul 14, 2020 16:02:00 GMT 1
Maybe I should have said working life but it was still a substantial part of his life.
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Post by clayts on Jul 14, 2020 16:17:46 GMT 1
What people forget is that Dean put his life on hold for 10 years to totally immerse himself in the chairman role. He attended training sessions , watched our academy players, attended countless club and league meetings and supported staff who he had put his trust in. Sadly this nearly cost him his life when he became extremely ill. Over his period of time as Chairman he earned little and I think I am right in saying he did not take any payment unlike directors such as Karen Brady at West Ham and even all other members of our board. At the Card factory he was fortunate to put his trust in dedicated and creative individuals who helped him to build the company to the success it was. Unfortunately at Huddersfield he took bad advice from those around him who were supposedly more football savvy and yes he made mistakes with some appointments. I would much rather we had a fan at the helm so whilst Phil may not have Deans wealth I am sure he has the best interests of the club at heart. What galls me these days are mercenary player's and agents who put cash before club and we still have some of these on board. Hopefully common sense will prevail and salary caps will also be introduced into the championship otherwise clubs will be driven into the ground and fans will become even more disillusioned with the the lack of reality regarding player and staff wages and the amount of effort many are prepared to put in. So basically did his job then?
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htfc63
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by htfc63 on Jul 14, 2020 16:32:03 GMT 1
Have a close look at some of the chairmen in the top leagues do and I think you will find they supply the cash and turn up for some of the games. I would hazard a guess that Dean was one of he most dedicated as he is a town fan through and through.
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jul 14, 2020 16:34:21 GMT 1
This could roll on forever. I can't really recall one instance of where a Chairman or CEO has lasted their full tenure and been universally lauded throughout. There may be some exceptions, I just can't think of any. So it was always going to end like this at some point, football fans are amongst the most fickle and two faced bastards on the planet. You have to kiss a lot of frogs as the saying goes. Not that long ago I think some on here would never have imagined HTFC supporters talking about 8 figure transfer fees (regardless of how shite some were) & figures of tens of £m's around club finances. Despite the misery and moaning we're probably in much better shape than tons of other clubs, but some folk have become too accustomed to being spoilt... Just enjoy the fecking ride!!! Understand your point apart from the comment regarding fans being “spoilt “ Forgetting the welcome increase in our fan base in recent years , many of us have followed Town for decades in the lower leagues not just since our promotion season. Why is it wrong , after witnessing our brief spell of success , not to want to return to the dark old days of Divs 1 and 2? Surely it’s only natural for fans to be disappointed and discontented with the events of the last few years. You can never say we have been spoilt at Town that's for sure.
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jul 14, 2020 16:35:54 GMT 1
What people forget is that Dean put his life on hold for 10 years to totally immerse himself in the chairman role. He attended training sessions , watched our academy players, attended countless club and league meetings and supported staff who he had put his trust in. Sadly this nearly cost him his life when he became extremely ill. Over his period of time as Chairman he earned little and I think I am right in saying he did not take any payment unlike directors such as Karen Brady at West Ham and even all other members of our board. At the Card factory he was fortunate to put his trust in dedicated and creative individuals who helped him to build the company to the success it was. Unfortunately at Huddersfield he took bad advice from those around him who were supposedly more football savvy and yes he made mistakes with some appointments. I would much rather we had a fan at the helm so whilst Phil may not have Deans wealth I am sure he has the best interests of the club at heart. What galls me these days are mercenary player's and agents who put cash before club and we still have some of these on board. Hopefully common sense will prevail and salary caps will also be introduced into the championship otherwise clubs will be driven into the ground and fans will become even more disillusioned with the the lack of reality regarding player and staff wages and the amount of effort many are prepared to put in. Are you saying he became ill because he was over worked? Give over lad. Some folk are having shockers on this thread.
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Post by richhtfc on Jul 14, 2020 16:56:00 GMT 1
If I was Dean I wouldn't even consider coming back. Have your money back and enjoy your life with your family especially after being so ill, life is too short to worry about people crying over a game which is all it is in the grand scheme of things and not worth some of the comments on here for someone who did so much and brought us experiences we didn't think possible. Things went wrong in the end, better to go wrong at the end than in his first couple of years. I've supported us for just over 30 years now and will continue to do so what ever league we're in or however good or shit we are. I'm not saying I'm any better or worse than any other fan by the way, just view it a different way to some others seem to. Without Hoyle we would not have been anywhere near the Premier League nevermind have amazing memories of the promotion season and some of the performances at the highest level. Yes he made mistakes but he's just a fan like the rest of us. If he wants his money back, it's his money anyway so let him have it. We're still going to have a club and he's going to have the money he and his wife earned before he took over. It's not "our" money we have no right to it. We are not entitled to it. He earnt it he should do what he wants with it without some of the comments on here. It's like some people are trying to make out he's stealing money like the Oyston's did, he's not coming out with a profit for over 10 years work he'd have made far more money not getting involved. Further to this, he hasn’t ‘taken his money back’, as I understand it he’s sold the club (his asset) for £50m and Phil is financing that with the parachute money. If you owned a football club that had just come down from the Premier League would you just give it to someone free of charge? The club has a value as an asset, he was largely responsible for giving it that value and he deserves to get paid for it. The way some talk on here you’d think he’d sold it for £50m and then expected an additional £50m for all the investment he’d put in back as well.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 16:59:30 GMT 1
I'm not suggesting he shouldn't have it back I'm just reacting to the ridiculous notion that he might need it to secure his family's future. If he needs that money to secure his family's future then he was a fool to invest it in a football club in the first place. The fact is he obviously wants it back in the family which is his choice to make of course but lets not kid ourselves he needs it. And we all work hard for what we've got (well most of us anyway), just coz we haven't reached the financial heights he has doesn't mean we've worked any less hard. It's not ridiculous to get his money back in his family rather than it being used to pay the wages of Mbenza, Diakhaby, Kongolo, Simpson et al. I agree that his family is probably already secure, but there's nothing wrong him him getting his money back (at the sole time it was available) and allowing them to be even more secure.
Imagine the uproar if Ken Davy had done a similar type of thing, Wanting his money back.
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Post by Galpharmer on Jul 14, 2020 17:26:46 GMT 1
Apparently his house is up for sale. I say house. Doubt it's with Whitegates in Mirfield. Probably cost as much as a shite foreign winger.
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Amigo
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Amigo on Jul 14, 2020 17:54:11 GMT 1
Apparently his house is up for sale. I say house. Doubt it's with Whitegates in Mirfield. Probably cost as much as a shite foreign winger. Why does it matter how big his house is? I fail to see how that has anything to do with Huddersfield Town as a club or any of its fans.
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Post by Galpharmer on Jul 14, 2020 18:01:06 GMT 1
Apparently his house is up for sale. I say house. Doubt it's with Whitegates in Mirfield. Probably cost as much as a shite foreign winger. Why does it matter how big his house is? I fail to see how that has anything to do with Huddersfield Town as a club or any of its fans. More to do with him coming back, as the title suggests. If he's selling up, which to be fair could be absolute bollocks anyway, then there's a chance he's trotting off into the distance, and not coming back.
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Post by El Mel on Jul 14, 2020 18:01:42 GMT 1
What people forget is that Dean put his life on hold for 10 years to totally immerse himself in the chairman role. He attended training sessions , watched our academy players, attended countless club and league meetings and supported staff who he had put his trust in. Sadly this nearly cost him his life when he became extremely ill. Over his period of time as Chairman he earned little and I think I am right in saying he did not take any payment unlike directors such as Karen Brady at West Ham and even all other members of our board. At the Card factory he was fortunate to put his trust in dedicated and creative individuals who helped him to build the company to the success it was. Unfortunately at Huddersfield he took bad advice from those around him who were supposedly more football savvy and yes he made mistakes with some appointments. I would much rather we had a fan at the helm so whilst Phil may not have Deans wealth I am sure he has the best interests of the club at heart. What galls me these days are mercenary player's and agents who put cash before club and we still have some of these on board. Hopefully common sense will prevail and salary caps will also be introduced into the championship otherwise clubs will be driven into the ground and fans will become even more disillusioned with the the lack of reality regarding player and staff wages and the amount of effort many are prepared to put in. You put your life on hold to give up everything to look after a sick relative not run a football club. When I needed to look after a sick relative, some of my closest friends and family didn't come near us, or Bailey. I'll give you one guess who did.
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 14, 2020 18:51:38 GMT 1
We are where we are now because the vast sums we spent on players was largely wasted on championship or worse standard players. Dean Hoyle didnt pick and choose those players. That wasnt his job. He just provided the funds and backed the manager who'd taken us from nowhere, into the prem. We arent where we are now because hes taken back the first portion of the money the club owes him. The lashing out at him for that is missing the actual reason why it all went south so quickly IMO. Have Slapp’s and Dean Hoyle ever been seen in the same room at the same time? I don’t know if you’re pally with Dean. If you are you’re a good mate. Yes we have, though I wouldnt say Im pally with him. Im happy to defend him because, partly I fully appreciate what he did and that had he not we'd have never got above L1 and 2 in these intervening years, and partly because so much of the criticism is frankly nonsense IMO.
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Post by sandgrounder on Jul 14, 2020 19:49:06 GMT 1
Entirely DH prerogative to take the decision to market the club and sell his controlling interest. No problem with they at all and more so given the life changing event he experienced health wise.
However, we will never know if the deal done was the best deal available to the club. The custodian and supporter of the club with best interest of the club all sound morally very good. But DH has know PH for a few years and his business (relatively new business in Pure) has sponsored the club and therefore elements of DD and background knowledge would be in place one would hope?
PH may go on to be worth as much as DH in the long run but he certainly isn’t in the Championship peck of wealth yet and we still don’t know what was put down up front from PH personal or business wealth or if all funded from what most supporters would view as the clubs funds from parachute payments?
We may never know and irrespective of the outcome of this season I personally don’t believe the deal or PH were or will transpire to be the best the club could have done.
Let’s not forget the club doesn’t own the ground and DH will do nightly well to get his £50m back and I bet no other suitor would have been prepared to ph anything near that for a championship team and a training ground???
Only hope I’m wrong. But CoVid could be very convenient smoke screen for someone.
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Post by specialun on Jul 15, 2020 1:25:36 GMT 1
Dean will presumably do whatever it takes to protect his £35m / avoid insolvency
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 15, 2020 9:22:55 GMT 1
I have to agree with this. If 99.9% of Town fans had just ONE million quid to secure their family's future I think they would be absolutely delighted. And I don't get the ungrateful bit either, I don't think Deano did what he did for me or any other Town fan I think he did it for his love of the club and because he could. The only people who should be grateful IMO are those who he has made into millionaires also. Well they should certainly be grateful, but you dont think we the fans should be too?!! Bloody hell, the guy used his money to take us from a hopeless life of lower league drudgery under the ownership of a bloke who used to the club to prop up a stadium company, and took us on a journey to the premier division and everything that came with that! You dont think theres anything there that the fans should be grateful for??
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Post by royrace on Jul 15, 2020 9:50:48 GMT 1
I have to agree with this. If 99.9% of Town fans had just ONE million quid to secure their family's future I think they would be absolutely delighted. And I don't get the ungrateful bit either, I don't think Deano did what he did for me or any other Town fan I think he did it for his love of the club and because he could. The only people who should be grateful IMO are those who he has made into millionaires also. Well they should certainly be grateful, but you dont think we the fans should be too?!! Bloody hell, the guy used his money to take us from a hopeless life of lower league drudgery under the ownership of a bloke who used to the club to prop up a stadium company, and took us on a journey to the premier division and everything that came with that! You dont think theres anything there that the fans should be grateful for?? Are we allowed to be really grateful for the wonderful work he did at the club prior to the last couple of years but really pissed off about what has occurred since, on many different levels, but most of all the way the takeover seems to have been arranged which is to remove almost all of the benefits of promotion in the first place? You're only as good as your last game. Some people seem to think Dean is beyond criticism because of what went before which is bollocks imo. He has a huge amount of good will in the tank but not that much.
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 15, 2020 12:23:34 GMT 1
Well they should certainly be grateful, but you dont think we the fans should be too?!! Bloody hell, the guy used his money to take us from a hopeless life of lower league drudgery under the ownership of a bloke who used to the club to prop up a stadium company, and took us on a journey to the premier division and everything that came with that! You dont think theres anything there that the fans should be grateful for?? Are we allowed to be really grateful for the wonderful work he did at the club prior to the last couple of years but really pissed off about what has occurred since, on many different levels, but most of all the way the takeover seems to have been arranged which is to remove almost all of the benefits of promotion in the first place? You're only as good as your last game. Some people seem to think Dean is beyond criticism because of what went before which is bollocks imo. He has a huge amount of good will in the tank but not that much. But thats the bit that isn't true. Hes taking a percentage of the parachute income.. about 35%. Hes not taking any of the income gained from being in the prem whilst we were there ( about £200m ) Hes not stopping us using the new improved canalside for training. Yet you describe it as 'removing almost all the benefits of promotion' ? The vast majority of the benefits of promotion were spaffed out on players that werent very good..We had the money and we blew it Its nothing to do with any takeover and none of those players were chosen by dean Hoyle. THAT'S where the benefits of promotion went! The goodwill was filling the tank when he was gifting the club his money, but as soon as that stopped, so has the goodwill it seems.
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Post by rastrick32 on Jul 15, 2020 12:32:51 GMT 1
I have to agree with this. If 99.9% of Town fans had just ONE million quid to secure their family's future I think they would be absolutely delighted. And I don't get the ungrateful bit either, I don't think Deano did what he did for me or any other Town fan I think he did it for his love of the club and because he could. The only people who should be grateful IMO are those who he has made into millionaires also. Well they should certainly be grateful, but you dont think we the fans should be too?!! Bloody hell, the guy used his money to take us from a hopeless life of lower league drudgery under the ownership of a bloke who used to the club to prop up a stadium company, and took us on a journey to the premier division and everything that came with that! You dont think theres anything there that the fans should be grateful for?? "It's a dream, only a dream. Just a memory without a place to stay." "I want it now. I want it now. Not the promises of what tomorrow brings. I need to live in dreams today."
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Post by royrace on Jul 15, 2020 12:47:18 GMT 1
Are we allowed to be really grateful for the wonderful work he did at the club prior to the last couple of years but really pissed off about what has occurred since, on many different levels, but most of all the way the takeover seems to have been arranged which is to remove almost all of the benefits of promotion in the first place? You're only as good as your last game. Some people seem to think Dean is beyond criticism because of what went before which is bollocks imo. He has a huge amount of good will in the tank but not that much. But thats the bit that isn't true. Hes taking a percentage of the parachute income.. about 35%. Hes not taking any of the income gained from being in the prem whilst we were there ( about £200m ) Hes not stopping us using the new improved canalside for training. Yet you describe it as 'removing almost all the benefits of promotion' ? The vast majority of the benefits of promotion were spaffed out on players that werent very good..We had the money and we blew it Its nothing to do with any takeover and none of those players were chosen by dean Hoyle. THAT'S where the benefits of promotion went! The goodwill was filling the tank when he was gifting the club his money, but as soon as that stopped, so has the goodwill it seems. The simple fact is that whatever is being taken, due to the fact it wasn't a straightforward sale, means that the club has had to slash the wage bill and sell players to the extent it could only afford to buy sub standard non league and lower league players last summer. That and the current league position tells you all you need to know about the PL legacy. And that's without even considering who was responsible for 'spaffing' money on players and saddling the club with massive wages for 4 unplayable players on 3 year contracts. We're basically skint, bringing in a free transfer in Jan took us over budget. Hopefully the improved training facility will be a tangible benefit (even though the club wont own it) although its all gone a bit quiet on that one. I'm not sure how you can look at the state of this club , the league table and what is possibly about to occur in the next week and say that the club HAS benefited from promotion to the PL.
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Sabre
Tom Cowan Terrier
Posts: 624
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Post by Sabre on Jul 15, 2020 13:02:48 GMT 1
You put your life on hold to give up everything to look after a sick relative not run a football club. When I needed to look after a sick relative, some of my closest friends and family didn't come near us, or Bailey. I'll give you one guess who did. Who did Mel?? The messiah?? Give it a rest.
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Post by workshyfop on Jul 15, 2020 13:03:53 GMT 1
The vast majority of the benefits of promotion were spaffed out on players that werent very good..We had the money and we blew it Its nothing to do with any takeover and none of those players were chosen by dean Hoyle. THAT'S where the benefits of promotion went! But that’s what the parachute payments are there for ... to protect clubs who have invested in players in the Premier League and then being lumbered with them and their wages when relegated. What parachute payments are not for are getting a club on the cheap and using them for paying out the owner. It’s a crazy situation whereby we’ve been relegated without that safety net and are now skint and struggling. Look at the players that have left and their replacements.
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Post by El Mel on Jul 15, 2020 13:36:36 GMT 1
When I needed to look after a sick relative, some of my closest friends and family didn't come near us, or Bailey. I'll give you one guess who did. Who did Mel?? The messiah?? Give it a rest. Sorry for trying to add some factual opinion to the debate Sabre. Let's stick to the whimmery and hunch based bullshitery from here on.
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Post by houllierspal on Jul 15, 2020 13:56:53 GMT 1
If I was Dean - which I am not - and read a lot of the comments on here, there is no way I would consider coming back
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