ambryboy
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Post by ambryboy on Jul 15, 2020 14:11:18 GMT 1
It's not ridiculous to get his money back in his family rather than it being used to pay the wages of Mbenza, Diakhaby, Kongolo, Simpson et al. I agree that his family is probably already secure, but there's nothing wrong him him getting his money back (at the sole time it was available) and allowing them to be even more secure.
Imagine the uproar if Ken Davy had done a similar type of thing, Wanting his money back.
Yes but it was only £2 wasn't it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 14:36:38 GMT 1
Imagine the uproar if Ken Davy had done a similar type of thing, Wanting his money back.
Yes but it was only £2 wasn't it?
Aye the good old days, Where Jacko and Taff and Boothy and Yates etc etc all rocked up to work and play football for free, Free coach travel, Hotels, free training facilities, no charge for the use of the stadium, happy days.
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Post by royrace on Jul 15, 2020 14:41:55 GMT 1
If I was Dean - which I am not - and read a lot of the comments on here, there is no way I would consider coming back Clever lad is Dean, I find it hard to believe that he would consider himself beyond criticism. If his ego was that fragile he wouldn't have come near the club in the first place.
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 15, 2020 14:53:28 GMT 1
But thats the bit that isn't true. Hes taking a percentage of the parachute income.. about 35%. Hes not taking any of the income gained from being in the prem whilst we were there ( about £200m ) Hes not stopping us using the new improved canalside for training. Yet you describe it as 'removing almost all the benefits of promotion' ? The vast majority of the benefits of promotion were spaffed out on players that werent very good..We had the money and we blew it Its nothing to do with any takeover and none of those players were chosen by dean Hoyle. THAT'S where the benefits of promotion went! The goodwill was filling the tank when he was gifting the club his money, but as soon as that stopped, so has the goodwill it seems. The simple fact is that whatever is being taken, due to the fact it wasn't a straightforward sale, means that the club has had to slash the wage bill and sell players to the extent it could only afford to buy sub standard non league and lower league players last summer. That and the current league position tells you all you need to know about the PL legacy. And that's without even considering who was responsible for 'spaffing' money on players and saddling the club with massive wages for 4 unplayable players on 3 year contracts. We're basically skint, bringing in a free transfer in Jan took us over budget. Hopefully the improved training facility will be a tangible benefit (even though the club wont own it) although its all gone a bit quiet on that one. I'm not sure how you can look at the state of this club , the league table and what is possibly about to occur in the next week and say that the club HAS benefited from promotion to the PL. I wasnt questioning the point of whether the club has benefitted from the prem or not .. I was questioning the claim that DH has removed almost all the benefits we got from being in the prem. Truth is hes taking back in the region of 10% of the financial benefits being in the prem brought in to the club. Even now, facing what we face, we have one of the most expensively assembled squads in the division and no doubt one of the best paid squads too... that SHOULD be the benefit of those 2 years in the prem, because that SHOULD mean we are up near or at the top. The fact its underperforming to the extent it is, is not Dean Hoyles fault or Hodkinsons either. Its purely down to whoever chose to spend all that money buying those particular players.
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Post by royrace on Jul 15, 2020 16:07:25 GMT 1
The simple fact is that whatever is being taken, due to the fact it wasn't a straightforward sale, means that the club has had to slash the wage bill and sell players to the extent it could only afford to buy sub standard non league and lower league players last summer. That and the current league position tells you all you need to know about the PL legacy. And that's without even considering who was responsible for 'spaffing' money on players and saddling the club with massive wages for 4 unplayable players on 3 year contracts. We're basically skint, bringing in a free transfer in Jan took us over budget. Hopefully the improved training facility will be a tangible benefit (even though the club wont own it) although its all gone a bit quiet on that one. I'm not sure how you can look at the state of this club , the league table and what is possibly about to occur in the next week and say that the club HAS benefited from promotion to the PL. I wasnt questioning the point of whether the club has benefitted from the prem or not .. I was questioning the claim that DH has removed almost all the benefits we got from being in the prem. Truth is hes taking back in the region of 10% of the financial benefits being in the prem brought in to the club. Even now, facing what we face, we have one of the most expensively assembled squads in the division and no doubt one of the best paid squads too... that SHOULD be the benefit of those 2 years in the prem, because that SHOULD mean we are up near or at the top. The fact its underperforming to the extent it is, is not Dean Hoyles fault or Hodkinsons either. Its purely down to whoever chose to spend all that money buying those particular players. The parachute payments are the biggest benefit after relegation, obviously, and £50M goes an awful long way in the champ. The other benefit is your squad, which if you've spent a load of cash on players should be very good for champ level and have value (saleable assets and assets on the pitch). Who chose to buy the players if it wasn't Dean or Phil? Who is responsible for a strategy so flawed that it resulted in not one or two poor signings but a 100% failure rate for 2 seasons running operating in totally different markets (elite level and bargain basement)? There's only Grant I can think of who could be considered a good signing and that was in January after relegation was already nailed on.
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 15, 2020 17:30:19 GMT 1
The squad SHOULD be the biggest benefit IMO, then the parachute payments. Obviously isnt in our case though.
Dean or Phil didnt chose any of the players. They didnt go into Wagners office and say ' Hey david, Ive heard of this Mbenza bloke at Montpellier i think we should sign" All they did was provide the funds they could.
I love the guy for what he did, but Wagner carries the can for that. He had his own advisors supposedly helping him scout and source players but they'll all have been his choice. Hes the manager.. he decides who we sign. Hoyle just supported him in that as best he could.. some we got an no doubt some we couldnt stretch to.
Wagner chose well when he was limited to cheap players he'd either worked with before or knew already from the german 2nd tier. When he had to operate in a different, much more expensive marketplace, looking for players who could cut it in the prem he failed miserably.
So to me, it doesnt matter if DH is taking back £35m over the next 3 years, the squad HTFC owns right now has had MORE than enough spent on it , in fees and wages, for Town to expect to be right up there challenging at the top end. The fact we're not is purely down to how bad our signings were with all that money.
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Post by Mr Breitside on Jul 15, 2020 18:56:27 GMT 1
There's a lot of ungrateful people on this thread, most of whom seem to have very short memories, or selective brain freeze. I trust none of whom are at death's door for a very long time, and they don't have to reassess life's priorities and how best to secure their own family's future. Fucking hell the bloke is a millionaire, him and his family's future is secure already. Nothing to do with being ungrateful, what you mean you want us to be grateful for what he did only when things were good and now things are bad you don't want to criticise him? Is that what you mean? Hoyle is driven by money. He said in an interview he first thought after the Chelsea game was the extra years income from the premier league.
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Post by richhtfc on Jul 15, 2020 19:08:12 GMT 1
The squad SHOULD be the biggest benefit IMO, then the parachute payments. Obviously isnt in our case though. Dean or Phil didnt chose any of the players. They didnt go into Wagners office and say ' Hey david, Ive heard of this Mbenza bloke at Montpellier i think we should sign" All they did was provide the funds they could. I love the guy for what he did, but Wagner carries the can for that. He had his own advisors supposedly helping him scout and source players but they'll all have been his choice. Hes the manager.. he decides who we sign. Hoyle just supported him in that as best he could.. some we got an no doubt some we couldnt stretch to. Wagner chose well when he was limited to cheap players he'd either worked with before or knew already from the german 2nd tier. When he had to operate in a different, much more expensive marketplace, looking for players who could cut it in the prem he failed miserably. So to me, it doesnt matter if DH is taking back £35m over the next 3 years, the squad HTFC owns right now has had MORE than enough spent on it , in fees and wages, for Town to expect to be right up there challenging at the top end. The fact we're not is purely down to how bad our signings were with all that money. Nope, it’s down to the quality of the players and the quality of the management to mould them into a team.
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Post by omegasupreme on Jul 15, 2020 21:50:15 GMT 1
I think its a very fair question and on seeing Dean speak and reading what seemed like heartfelt accounts of his time as a Town fan you would think he may well come back ,nobody knows but one or two on here seem to be mates with Dean and have intimated he had had enough and wouldnt be returning in a controlling role ,as you say he currently has 25% stake and would probably be keen for that investment not to diminish My only issue is I feel that Dean as responsible as he was for our foray into the premier league he is also responsible for our decline through bad management and his demand for monies returned at such a rate the club was always going to be hamstrung . Time will tell but i think some people are wishful thinking . He’s a bit like Wagner really. Did some truly great things and made some bloody awful mistakes that ultimately have led us to the complete mess we are in now. We are in a worse position now than we were prior to the premier league.
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 16, 2020 0:40:18 GMT 1
Bacuna, Diakhaby, Mounie, Pritchard, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi....
Thats approximately £72m of singings that the club owns ( SEVENTY-TWO MILLION!!!!! ) , none of whome are good enough to hold down a regular starting place, even in this team, and most of whome have contributed precisely fuck all.
Tell you, Dean Hoyle taking back a lot of his money is a side issue as to why we are where we are and how the benefit of reaching the prem has been lost.
By the time those 7 players leave the club, we'll have lost well over £60 million on them and thats not even including the wages, agents fees etc
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Post by Mecha Corte on Jul 16, 2020 7:45:05 GMT 1
Bacuna, Diakhaby, Mounie, Pritchard, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi.... Thats approximately £72m of singings that the club owns ( SEVENTY-TWO MILLION!!!!! ) , none of whome are good enough to hold down a regular starting place, even in this team, and most of whome have contributed precisely fuck all. Tell you, Dean Hoyle taking back a lot of his money is a side issue as to why we are where we are and how the benefit of reaching the prem has been lost. By the time those 7 players leave the club, we'll have lost well over £60 million on them and thats not even including the wages, agents fees etc 7 players costing £72M in fees alone, I wonder how many years it took Town starting in 1908 to spend that amount on all the other signings made ? 100 years ? Longer ? Have we even got there prior to these 7 ? As you say that's without wages, agents fees, bonuses and the like which will take the total over £100M and realistically what are we likely to get back for them ? £10M at a push ? Earlier in his role as Chairman Dean Hoyle turned down the chance to sign Ricky Lambert for £1M on the basis that while he would be a good signing with goals assured his age meant that it wasn't viable as he wouldn't have any resale value. Although disappointing at the time it did make sense, is even though he proved everybody wrong firstly by scoring the goals to get Saints up, at our expense, then by joining Liverpool in the PL, in fairness to DH we did get Jordan Rhodes. I don't know what say DH had on these 7 but if the same logic was used to sign them as potential Jordan Rhodes' rather than taking a risk on more Ricky Lamberts it's 3rd Division thinking that's likely to put us back there.
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Post by Mecha Corte on Jul 16, 2020 7:56:10 GMT 1
Wagner chose well when he was limited to cheap players he'd either worked with before or knew already from the german 2nd tier. When he had to operate in a different, much more expensive marketplace, looking for players who could cut it in the prem he failed miserably. .[/quote]
I agree with you regarding Wagner and his signings, I always said the same with regards to Micky Buxton - his bargain basement worked a treat, the likes of Colin Russel and Duncan Shearer for buttons, then I suppose you could call Steve Kindon his Christopher Schindler equivalent and Terry Austin his and the club's record signing would be his Membenza ?
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Post by houllierspal on Jul 16, 2020 8:21:37 GMT 1
In fairness Austin did from memory score in his first 7/8 games before he turned Mbenza-like?
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Post by royrace on Jul 16, 2020 11:08:10 GMT 1
Bacuna, Diakhaby, Mounie, Pritchard, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi.... Thats approximately £72m of singings that the club owns ( SEVENTY-TWO MILLION!!!!! ) , none of whome are good enough to hold down a regular starting place, even in this team, and most of whome have contributed precisely fuck all. Tell you, Dean Hoyle taking back a lot of his money is a side issue as to why we are where we are and how the benefit of reaching the prem has been lost. By the time those 7 players leave the club, we'll have lost well over £60 million on them and thats not even including the wages, agents fees etc Heartbreaking isn't it?! £72M, absolute madness. You could probably buy up a small town for that or build a new football stadium! Dean was responsible for buying them though and if he wasn't then he should have been, you dont commit to spending that type of money without making damned sure the people doing the work for you know what they're doing. The strategy was/is flawed, all we've heard is its Wagner's fault despite the DOF/sporting director debacles and the fact the only recruitment specialist we seem to have had is a twenty odd year old with no previous experience or track record. Still no acknowledgement either, still the same old 'not bad players but wrong players' BS trotted out, even as recent as a few games ago. Webb has left for some mysterious reason now we have a young coach doing the job. The football forum was a group made up of the owner Dean/Phil, the chief executive, Josh Marsh, Leigh Bromby, Jon Iga, Mark Fagan and Siewart. That was before the last summer window and we know what happened then. I suspect the summer before was similar with maybe some input from Rebbe who was signed after having a disastrous spell at Wolfsburg. I dont think you can really argue Deans £50M doesn't matter because all the money was wasted on transfers by Wagner when it was Dean himself in charge of spending that cash!
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ram
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Post by ram on Jul 16, 2020 11:29:00 GMT 1
Let,s face it.If we finish up in Division 4,Dean,s 25% shareholding will be worth the Square root of Fuck all!
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Post by Mastercracker on Jul 16, 2020 11:46:10 GMT 1
Bacuna, Diakhaby, Mounie, Pritchard, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi.... Thats approximately £72m of singings that the club owns ( SEVENTY-TWO MILLION!!!!! ) , none of whome are good enough to hold down a regular starting place, even in this team, and most of whome have contributed precisely fuck all. Tell you, Dean Hoyle taking back a lot of his money is a side issue as to why we are where we are and how the benefit of reaching the prem has been lost. By the time those 7 players leave the club, we'll have lost well over £60 million on them and thats not even including the wages, agents fees etc Heartbreaking isn't it?! £72M, absolute madness. You could probably buy up a small town for that or build a new football stadium! Dean was responsible for buying them though and if he wasn't then he should have been, you dont commit to spending that type of money without making damned sure the people doing the work for you know what they're doing. The strategy was/is flawed, all we've heard is its Wagner's fault despite the DOF/sporting director debacles and the fact the only recruitment specialist we seem to have had is a twenty odd year old with no previous experience or track record. Still no acknowledgement either, still the same old 'not bad players but wrong players' BS trotted out, even as recent as a few games ago. Webb has left for some mysterious reason now we have a young coach doing the job. The football forum was a group made up of the owner Dean/Phil, the chief executive, Josh Marsh, Leigh Bromby, Jon Iga, Mark Fagan and Siewart. That was before the last summer window and we know what happened then. I suspect the summer before was similar with maybe some input from Rebbe who was signed after having a disastrous spell at Wolfsburg. I dont think you can really argue Deans £50M doesn't matter because all the money was wasted on transfers by Wagner when it was Dean himself in charge of spending that cash! Wagners strength was man management. Most of the players and most of the fanbase would have run through a brick wall for him, even before he took us up. Contrary to revisionism he was also a decent tactician, you have to view his 'failures' in the context of the budget he had and the players we were up against. And he turned average champ players like Hogg and Smith into top ones for a period of time, like Bielsa has done with half that Leeds squad who prior to his arrival were crap. What he probably wasn't was someone who went home and watched every game of football on TV and had an encyclopaedic knowledge of European football - He barely knew who HTFC were, even I know who all the Bundesliga 2 teams are and even most of the 3Liga. It's obvious most of the initial signings came from his knowledge of German football and players he had come up against, with gaps filled in by Webber. The latter should have been recognised from above, Wagner needed help in the scouting and signings aspect, and it wasn't forthcoming. He was the classic Head Coach. The amount of time we spent with no DOF (or whatever we're choosing to call the role), or the amount of DOFs we've lost by not being competitive on wages, or the frankly L1 standard scouting network we operate (Ross Wilson quote, not mine) is down to the owner. Anyone who thinks Wagner was actively seeking Diakhaby or Mbenza is delusional. He blatantly asked for quick wide men given who we were linked with that summer and if the only decent one on your list goes to Wolves and the rest you are presented with aren't good enough because the scouting is crap and the wages uncompetitive that's not the managers fault. Where would he even have seen Diakhaby other than whatever footage we as a club presented to him? Do folk think he was spending 12 hours a day at Canalside then going home and flicking BT sport on to watch Montpellier v Guimgamp, or even flying to France between Town games?
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Jul 16, 2020 11:56:27 GMT 1
Bacuna, Diakhaby, Mounie, Pritchard, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi.... Thats approximately £72m of singings that the club owns ( SEVENTY-TWO MILLION!!!!! ) , none of whome are good enough to hold down a regular starting place, even in this team, and most of whome have contributed precisely fuck all. Tell you, Dean Hoyle taking back a lot of his money is a side issue as to why we are where we are and how the benefit of reaching the prem has been lost. By the time those 7 players leave the club, we'll have lost well over £60 million on them and thats not even including the wages, agents fees etc Not forgetting,that we will have received loan fees for Diakhaby, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Jul 16, 2020 12:14:26 GMT 1
Didn't Dean Hoyle pretty much make the decision to sign Aaron Mooy against Wagner's judgement? So that straight away shows he has more influence than merely signing the cheques In terms of the 2018 junk. I suspect Wagner will have asked for pacey wingers and the club came back with a shortlist which was full of crap like Mbenza, Diakhaby and Limbonde. Wagner won't have been frequently flying to the South of France to watch players in the midst of also handling training, playing our own games, doing media work and everything else What we could all see was that Wagner clearly didn't trust any of the new players and wouldn't play any of them - which is strange if they were 100% his signings This artcle reference's Town "Football Forum" - www.terrierspirit.com/huddersfield-town-chief-executive-reveals-transfer-plans-including-five-potential-signings/ - which was the system used last summer (which was also a disaster IMO). There's a video interview with Julian Winter at the end and he explains the policy from 3 mins onwards
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Post by Mecha Corte on Jul 16, 2020 12:36:47 GMT 1
In fairness Austin did from memory score in his first 7/8 games before he turned Mbenza-like? I've posted stats regarding Terry Austin in the past, he's labelled as an expensive flop, however he made an exceptional start to his Town career, made more difficult because he had to replace one of Kindon, Robins, Fletcher, all 3 crowd favourites that helped win the 4th Division. Terry Austin, £120k record signing - two goals on debut away at Walsall in a 2-2 draw, scored in the next two games, a 5- nil and 4-1 win, he then had a two game blank but they were a draw and a win and then both goals in a 2-1 away win at Blackpool (when Town fans outnumbered the home by about 2 to one ) Stats any forward would be happy with, however after Bloomfield Road it all went downhill, no further goals until another brace away at Pompey to seal a 2-1 win in what had become a dead rubber after promotion had gone thanks to Millwall, Burnley and Hull. He departed the following season in a swap for winger Daryl Pugh, he could have been a Town legend, sadly he became known as Tracy Austin, expensive flop.
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 16, 2020 12:59:30 GMT 1
Bacuna, Diakhaby, Mounie, Pritchard, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi.... Thats approximately £72m of singings that the club owns ( SEVENTY-TWO MILLION!!!!! ) , none of whome are good enough to hold down a regular starting place, even in this team, and most of whome have contributed precisely fuck all. Tell you, Dean Hoyle taking back a lot of his money is a side issue as to why we are where we are and how the benefit of reaching the prem has been lost. By the time those 7 players leave the club, we'll have lost well over £60 million on them and thats not even including the wages, agents fees etc Heartbreaking isn't it?! £72M, absolute madness. You could probably buy up a small town for that or build a new football stadium! Dean was responsible for buying them though and if he wasn't then he should have been, you dont commit to spending that type of money without making damned sure the people doing the work for you know what they're doing. The strategy was/is flawed, all we've heard is its Wagner's fault despite the DOF/sporting director debacles and the fact the only recruitment specialist we seem to have had is a twenty odd year old with no previous experience or track record. Still no acknowledgement either, still the same old 'not bad players but wrong players' BS trotted out, even as recent as a few games ago. Webb has left for some mysterious reason now we have a young coach doing the job. The football forum was a group made up of the owner Dean/Phil, the chief executive, Josh Marsh, Leigh Bromby, Jon Iga, Mark Fagan and Siewart. That was before the last summer window and we know what happened then. I suspect the summer before was similar with maybe some input from Rebbe who was signed after having a disastrous spell at Wolfsburg. I dont think you can really argue Deans £50M doesn't matter because all the money was wasted on transfers by Wagner when it was Dean himself in charge of spending that cash! Deans £50m is actually £45m and will probably be £35m unless we achieve some unknown target ( probably going back up ) . Obviously having to pay that back isnt going to help us.. my point really is that having to pay that back is not why we are where we are in this division right now. What you seem to be wanting is an owner who says to his manager, no we're not signing him because even though you want him, I dont think hes very good? Are owners qualified to make that call? Would any decent manager accept that level of interference from what is fundamentally a 'fan' with no more credence to his opinion than any other fan? IMO thats not the owners job. Its his task to back his managers as much as he can. If the manager gets it wrong, then you change managers. At the time we were throwing that £72m around our manager had just achieved one or both of two incredible feats.. either having just taken us up, or just kept us up, so Im not surprised the owner was comfortable backing him in the transfer market. to the extent he was. Im pretty sure in hindsight, he knows it was a mistake.. not spending the money... but spending it on those players.
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 16, 2020 13:06:49 GMT 1
Bacuna, Diakhaby, Mounie, Pritchard, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi.... Thats approximately £72m of singings that the club owns ( SEVENTY-TWO MILLION!!!!! ) , none of whome are good enough to hold down a regular starting place, even in this team, and most of whome have contributed precisely fuck all. Tell you, Dean Hoyle taking back a lot of his money is a side issue as to why we are where we are and how the benefit of reaching the prem has been lost. By the time those 7 players leave the club, we'll have lost well over £60 million on them and thats not even including the wages, agents fees etc Not forgetting,that we will have received loan fees for Diakhaby, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi Loan fees that might cover their wages I suspect. Believe we got £1.4m loan fee for Sobhi in that first season he was loaned.. so roughly £30k a week
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Post by johntheterrier on Jul 16, 2020 13:13:13 GMT 1
The squad SHOULD be the biggest benefit IMO, then the parachute payments. Obviously isnt in our case though. Dean or Phil didnt chose any of the players. They didnt go into Wagners office and say ' Hey david, Ive heard of this Mbenza bloke at Montpellier i think we should sign" All they did was provide the funds they could. I love the guy for what he did, but Wagner carries the can for that. He had his own advisors supposedly helping him scout and source players but they'll all have been his choice. Hes the manager.. he decides who we sign. Hoyle just supported him in that as best he could.. some we got an no doubt some we couldnt stretch to. Wagner chose well when he was limited to cheap players he'd either worked with before or knew already from the german 2nd tier. When he had to operate in a different, much more expensive marketplace, looking for players who could cut it in the prem he failed miserably. So to me, it doesnt matter if DH is taking back £35m over the next 3 years, the squad HTFC owns right now has had MORE than enough spent on it , in fees and wages, for Town to expect to be right up there challenging at the top end. The fact we're not is purely down to how bad our signings were with all that money. Can't argue with any of that.
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Jul 16, 2020 13:35:54 GMT 1
Not forgetting,that we will have received loan fees for Diakhaby, Kongolo, Mbenza, Sobhi Loan fees that might cover their wages I suspect. Believe we got £1.4m loan fee for Sobhi in that first season he was loaned.. so roughly £30k a week Every little helps
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Post by royrace on Jul 16, 2020 13:52:44 GMT 1
Heartbreaking isn't it?! £72M, absolute madness. You could probably buy up a small town for that or build a new football stadium! Dean was responsible for buying them though and if he wasn't then he should have been, you dont commit to spending that type of money without making damned sure the people doing the work for you know what they're doing. The strategy was/is flawed, all we've heard is its Wagner's fault despite the DOF/sporting director debacles and the fact the only recruitment specialist we seem to have had is a twenty odd year old with no previous experience or track record. Still no acknowledgement either, still the same old 'not bad players but wrong players' BS trotted out, even as recent as a few games ago. Webb has left for some mysterious reason now we have a young coach doing the job. The football forum was a group made up of the owner Dean/Phil, the chief executive, Josh Marsh, Leigh Bromby, Jon Iga, Mark Fagan and Siewart. That was before the last summer window and we know what happened then. I suspect the summer before was similar with maybe some input from Rebbe who was signed after having a disastrous spell at Wolfsburg. I dont think you can really argue Deans £50M doesn't matter because all the money was wasted on transfers by Wagner when it was Dean himself in charge of spending that cash! Wagners strength was man management. Most of the players and most of the fanbase would have run through a brick wall for him, even before he took us up. Contrary to revisionism he was also a decent tactician, you have to view his 'failures' in the context of the budget he had and the players we were up against. And he turned average champ players like Hogg and Smith into top ones for a period of time, like Bielsa has done with half that Leeds squad who prior to his arrival were crap. What he probably wasn't was someone who went home and watched every game of football on TV and had an encyclopaedic knowledge of European football - He barely knew who HTFC were, even I know who all the Bundesliga 2 teams are and even most of the 3Liga. It's obvious most of the initial signings came from his knowledge of German football and players he had come up against, with gaps filled in by Webber. The latter should have been recognised from above, Wagner needed help in the scouting and signings aspect, and it wasn't forthcoming. He was the classic Head Coach. The amount of time we spent with no DOF (or whatever we're choosing to call the role), or the amount of DOFs we've lost by not being competitive on wages, or the frankly L1 standard scouting network we operate (Ross Wilson quote, not mine) is down to the owner. Anyone who thinks Wagner was actively seeking Diakhaby or Mbenza is delusional. He blatantly asked for quick wide men given who we were linked with that summer and if the only decent one on your list goes to Wolves and the rest you are presented with aren't good enough because the scouting is crap and the wages uncompetitive that's not the managers fault. Where would he even have seen Diakhaby other than whatever footage we as a club presented to him? Do folk think he was spending 12 hours a day at Canalside then going home and flicking BT sport on to watch Montpellier v Guimgamp, or even flying to France between Town games? EXACTLY. Anyone who thinks Wagner scouted Diakbenza, Sobhi and and Ben Hamer is living in cloud cuckoo land. I've heard both Dean and Phil basically say that Wagner asked for wingers and then didn't play them whilst completely failing to take into account that all three are total and utter dogshit, even at champ level let alone PL. So much so that he changed the whole system to avoid having to use them. Do people seriously think he'd have done that had he hand picked them himself? He didn't even give them a sniff, hopefully now we can all see and agree why that was. I find it baffling, its almost like those culpable are being allowed to deflect any blame onto the manager. "Wrong players, not bad players"? My arse.
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 16, 2020 14:16:04 GMT 1
Wagner will have known all about who sobhi was. Hed recently played against us and scored!
Its probably true that he himself wouldnt have gone scouting around europe looking for targets. Doubt many modern managers do. But by the time we were signing Diakhaby and Mbenza etc hed been our manager for 2 1/2 years and had had ample time to put in place a scouting network he trusted to work for him. Im pretty sure wagner will have been instrumental in Rebbe getting the job here for one. He'll have worked on a daily basis with Kongolo for 6 months and should have got a good grip on the player's character.
And whilst im sure the system worked where he would tell these scouts to source him a particular type of player, the ultimate decision was his on whether we bought them or not. He'll have gone and watched a game if there was one to watch, it being the close season. He'll have watched as many videos of games as he could and he'll have talked to as many people he could who would have an opinion. And hell have made his ultimate call from that. And it was his call. Then he'll have approached Hoyle and persuaded him to cough up whatever we had to to buy the player.
I think he decided we needed a quick wide player to feed Mounie, went out and bought 3 for some reason, and quickly realised none of them were any good to the point we couldnt play that way. It was a disastrous piece of management which not only ruined his whole strategy for the upcoming season and chucked away an enormous amount of our money, but one that we will still be totally hamstrung by 3 years later.
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Post by Mastercracker on Jul 16, 2020 14:26:43 GMT 1
Its not the Head Coaches job to go and employ scouts is it. That's the clubs job.
He also probably wasn't involved in the finances of any of the deals, if he was that would certainly be unusual in modern management.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 14:46:24 GMT 1
The squad SHOULD be the biggest benefit IMO, then the parachute payments. Obviously isnt in our case though. Dean or Phil didnt chose any of the players. They didnt go into Wagners office and say ' Hey david, Ive heard of this Mbenza bloke at Montpellier i think we should sign" All they did was provide the funds they could. I love the guy for what he did, but Wagner carries the can for that. He had his own advisors supposedly helping him scout and source players but they'll all have been his choice. Hes the manager.. he decides who we sign. Hoyle just supported him in that as best he could.. some we got an no doubt some we couldnt stretch to. Wagner chose well when he was limited to cheap players he'd either worked with before or knew already from the german 2nd tier. When he had to operate in a different, much more expensive marketplace, looking for players who could cut it in the prem he failed miserably. So to me, it doesnt matter if DH is taking back £35m over the next 3 years, the squad HTFC owns right now has had MORE than enough spent on it , in fees and wages, for Town to expect to be right up there challenging at the top end. The fact we're not is purely down to how bad our signings were with all that money.
Wasn't Wagner too busy doing everything else to choose and scout players.
" what you think we need to improve Dave ? ",
" Pacey wingers Dean, Pace and a good ball in to the forwards, I aint been in Germany for 2 years now and been too busy here sorting this shithole out so I cannot recommend anybody really, Other than Traore, I really like him Dean, Make a good profit in 18 months on this fella "
" ok, I will get the young lad on it "
" young un get your self on your championship/football manager stats game and find some pacey widemen "
" ok Boss, I can sort this, what do you reckon, 18 pace and 16 crossing ? We don't need Webber, Moss or A N Other to sort this, I can do it and I will get a youtube clips vid knocked up for Wagner to watch when he has 5 minutes to spare, after he has done everything else he is doing, Oooh hey how about these 3, All have the same numbers as the lad at Boro and similar exotic surnames, probably get 2 for the same price as the Boro lad "
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 14:49:58 GMT 1
Wagner will have known all about who sobhi was. Hed recently played against us and scored! Its probably true that he himself wouldnt have gone scouting around europe looking for targets. Doubt many modern managers do. But by the time we were signing Diakhaby and Mbenza etc hed been our manager for 2 1/2 years and had had ample time to put in place a scouting network he trusted to work for him. Im pretty sure wagner will have been instrumental in Rebbe getting the job here for one. He'll have worked on a daily basis with Kongolo for 6 months and should have got a good grip on the player's character. And whilst im sure the system worked where he would tell these scouts to source him a particular type of player, the ultimate decision was his on whether we bought them or not. He'll have gone and watched a game if there was one to watch, it being the close season. He'll have watched as many videos of games as he could and he'll have talked to as many people he could who would have an opinion. And hell have made his ultimate call from that. And it was his call. Then he'll have approached Hoyle and persuaded him to cough up whatever we had to to buy the player. I think he decided we needed a quick wide player to feed Mounie, went out and bought 3 for some reason, and quickly realised none of them were any good to the point we couldnt play that way. It was a disastrous piece of management which not only ruined his whole strategy for the upcoming season and chucked away an enormous amount of our money, but one that we will still be totally hamstrung by 3 years later.
Being close season I would imagine Wagner will have been spending a bit of time with his family and chilling a little, Rather than watching loads of videos of players, Give over.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 14:53:05 GMT 1
If I was Dean - which I am not - and read a lot of the comments on here, there is no way I would consider coming back
Why not has anybody called him anything worse than money mad or Indian giver ?
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Post by Captainslapper on Jul 16, 2020 15:31:39 GMT 1
Its not the Head Coaches job to go and employ scouts is it. That's the clubs job. He also probably wasn't involved in the finances of any of the deals, if he was that would certainly be unusual in modern management. The head coach will have a lot of say in who the club employs as scouts. I imagine most will want people they know and trust. And wagner will certainly have been instrumental in Rebbe joining I would have thought. They hadnt previously directly worked together but wagner will have known him and been aware of his work. There s no way IMO at that point the club would have appointed a DOF without wagners full backing and cooperation. Rebbe was probably recommended by Wagner. The finances of any deal will be arranged by the club. The manager has a budget to work within but if wagner tells the club that Mbenza is a good buy at £12m, then the club will be guided by that opinion. They either back their managers valuation or they dont, which at the time would have probably meant DW taking one of the offers from other clubs that were after him Id have thought. We only know about the ones we actually got. Sure therell have been many others where wagner and his scouting team said player x is worth say £10m but the selling club wanted £15m, so it never happened.
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