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Post by otterman on Oct 13, 2020 13:14:10 GMT 1
Maybe he meant we didn’t need an additional striker. We certainly need a different striker. CC’s English is not so good
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Post by workshyfop on Oct 13, 2020 13:18:33 GMT 1
I'd like to think Carlos has just mastered the English sense of humour and is trying his hand at sarcasm!
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Yuta be a terrier
Andy Booth Terrier
That Gary Taylor fletcher will never make a footballer.....
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Post by Yuta be a terrier on Oct 13, 2020 13:22:33 GMT 1
Do we class Grant as a striker considering he played wide left virtually all season?
Perhaps CC wants 3 goalscoring midfielders/ wingers
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Post by otterman on Oct 13, 2020 13:28:32 GMT 1
Don’t confuse the term striker with the old fashioned centre forward.
In my book, a striker is a player capable of scoring regularly from anywhere in the front line.
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Post by townmad9 on Oct 13, 2020 13:44:05 GMT 1
This is the exception rather than the rule surely? Not really. Boro went up in 15/16 with Nugent as top scorer with 8. Cardiff in 17/18 with Paterson with 10. You're stuck in the 80's though so will probably continue to peddle the "need a 20 goal striker" cliche  And let’s not forget the year we went up, our top scorer in the league was Kachunga with 12 goals |
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Post by townmad9 on Oct 13, 2020 13:45:18 GMT 1
Hull got automatic promotion in 12/13 and their top scorer was a midfielder with 9. You don't need a top striker to be successful. That said presuming Grant isn't here I don't fancy any of Campbell, Diakhaby, Mbenza, Pritchard, Bacuna, LOB to get more than 5. I could see Koroma getting a few once he gets one cos he can actually shoot. Ward doesnt ever seem to be fit enough. So it's a worry. Indeed. If we had any midfielders who looked remotely capable of regular goal input I could half understand it. As it is, without a new player, we are left with Campbell ( who I like but who is never going to be long term fit ) and Ward who has never been either prolific or fit for long spells. We have had this lack of goals problem for a long time and we could very easily be playing games without a striker in the team again. You say Ward has never been fit for long spells? Looking at his injury record he’s only ever had one long term injury before this season |
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Post by terriersyndrome on Oct 13, 2020 13:55:03 GMT 1
Both Campbell & Ward are decent back up strikers but to expect them to stay fit AND score the goals required is very ambitious.
Ward played one game but has since been sidelined for the last 6 weeks, I don't even think he's back in training yet, is he? Campbell has not had any pre-season, mustered 3 goals last season & didn't even look like scoring most games.
Between Saturday & the 7th November we've got 7 games coming up, it's unrealistic to think they can manage those games between them & that's IF they can get Ward back on the grass without getting injured again in that time.
Very worrying.
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Post by overtonterrierspirit on Oct 13, 2020 14:15:08 GMT 1
Indeed. If we had any midfielders who looked remotely capable of regular goal input I could half understand it. As it is, without a new player, we are left with Campbell ( who I like but who is never going to be long term fit ) and Ward who has never been either prolific or fit for long spells. We have had this lack of goals problem for a long time and we could very easily be playing games without a striker in the team again. You say Ward has never been fit for long spells? Looking at his injury record he’s only ever had one long term injury before this season Not sure where you get this information from. He was injured for spells at all of his previous clubs including his first spell with us. Putting the injuries aside - even if fully fit both he and Campbell do not offer consistent goal scoring. |
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Post by overtonterrierspirit on Oct 13, 2020 14:17:25 GMT 1
Don’t confuse the term striker with the old fashioned centre forward. In my book, a striker is a player capable of scoring regularly from anywhere in the front line. Totally agree. The issue is surely that we currently , Grant aside, do not have one player on our books who offers this. |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Oct 13, 2020 14:20:52 GMT 1
The way we seem to be looking to play may mean more players closer to the opposition goal a bit more often.
Just a thought that scoring goals is sort of easier thr closer you are and more goals might be scored if more players are in the box at the same time as the ball?
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Post by otterman on Oct 13, 2020 14:20:55 GMT 1
If Lewis O’Brien wasn’t so pivotal in his mid field role, in the absence of the purchase of a proven striker, for me, he’s worth a punt up front.
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Champers
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by Champers on Oct 13, 2020 14:27:33 GMT 1
If Lewis O’Brien wasn’t so pivotal in his mid field role, in the absence of the purchase of a proven striker, for me, he’s worth a punt up front. Please just shut up. Please. |
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Post by otterman on Oct 13, 2020 14:30:58 GMT 1
If Lewis O’Brien wasn’t so pivotal in his mid field role, in the absence of the purchase of a proven striker, for me, he’s worth a punt up front. Please just shut up. Please. In the absence of an incoming proven striker, LOB is a contender for top scorer from midfield anyway. How does “ please just shut up “ advance the debate. Less anger and confrontation and more engagement if you please. |
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Post by VLP Fan Club on Oct 13, 2020 14:32:49 GMT 1
If Lewis O’Brien wasn’t so pivotal in his mid field role, in the absence of the purchase of a proven striker, for me, he’s worth a punt up front. I’ve seen some stuff on here in my time but this is up there with the worst |
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Champers
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by Champers on Oct 13, 2020 14:34:18 GMT 1
Please just shut up. Please. In the absence of an incoming proven striker, LOB is a contender for top scorer from midfield anyway. How does “ please just shut up “ advance the debate. Less anger and confrontation and more engagement if you please. I'm not angry in the slightest, just the usual exasperation at a ridiculous comment. There is absolutely nothing about O'Brien's game that suggests he would make a good striker, makeshift or not. How on earth do you even arrive at that conclusion? Humour me. |
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Post by otterman on Oct 13, 2020 14:37:02 GMT 1
In the absence of an incoming proven striker, LOB is a contender for top scorer from midfield anyway. How does “ please just shut up “ advance the debate. Less anger and confrontation and more engagement if you please. I'm not angry in the slightest, just the usual exasperation at a ridiculous comment. There is absolutely nothing about O'Brien's game that suggests he would make a good striker, makeshift or not. How on earth do you even arrive at that conclusion? Humour me. The squad is so threadbare, who else is going to score the goals? Nobody has been our go to striker for 3 seasons. |
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Post by townmad9 on Oct 13, 2020 14:37:26 GMT 1
You say Ward has never been fit for long spells? Looking at his injury record he’s only ever had one long term injury before this season Not sure where you get this information from. He was injured for spells at all of his previous clubs including his first spell with us. Putting the injuries aside - even if fully fit both he and Campbell do not offer consistent goal scoring. Simple Google Searches. Since Leaving Town: 14/15 - 30 games played 15/16 - 36 games played 16/17 - 43 games played 17/18 - 20 games played (missed last 6 months of season with injury) 18/19 - 16 games played (this was in the Prem when Cardiff signed 3 new strikers when they went up, but he wasn't injured during this season) 19/20 - 33 games played Not bad for someone who struggles to stay fit. And don't mistake him for the Danny Ward winger who used to play for us. Since playing as a striker and signing for Cardiff, he averages a goal once every 137 minutes. That's an excellent record. For context, Karlan Grant averaged a goal once every 195 minutes for us last season, and that included penalties too. At least give the guy a chance before we make judgement on him, he's not even kicked a ball yet |
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hudmat
Tom Cowan Terrier
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Post by hudmat on Oct 13, 2020 14:43:15 GMT 1
Any promising strikers in academy? Personally I’d prefer we added players in other positions that score goals too. Not a fan of relying on one player to score 90% of our goals
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Champers
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by Champers on Oct 13, 2020 14:44:51 GMT 1
I'm not angry in the slightest, just the usual exasperation at a ridiculous comment. There is absolutely nothing about O'Brien's game that suggests he would make a good striker, makeshift or not. How on earth do you even arrive at that conclusion? Humour me. The squad is so threadbare, who else is going to score the goals? Nobody has been our go to striker for 3 seasons. You haven't answered my question. |
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Post by overtonterrierspirit on Oct 13, 2020 14:49:57 GMT 1
Not sure where you get this information from. He was injured for spells at all of his previous clubs including his first spell with us. Putting the injuries aside - even if fully fit both he and Campbell do not offer consistent goal scoring. Simple Google Searches. Since Leaving Town: 14/15 - 30 games played 15/16 - 36 games played 16/17 - 43 games played 17/18 - 20 games played (missed last 6 months of season with injury) 18/19 - 16 games played (this was in the Prem when Cardiff signed 3 new strikers when they went up, but he wasn't injured during this season) 19/20 - 33 games played Not bad for someone who struggles to stay fit. And don't mistake him for the Danny Ward winger who used to play for us. Since playing as a striker and signing for Cardiff, he averages a goal once every 137 minutes. That's an excellent record. For context, Karlan Grant averaged a goal once every 195 minutes for us last season, and that included penalties too. At least give the guy a chance before we make judgement on him, he's not even kicked a ball yet I’m not “judging” either player. I like them both. Obviously if it’s true that we are not looking for another striker, people who know more about the situation are happy to carry on as we are. Personally, I don’t think we have enough. After watching every minute of all of our games so far, I cannot see where the goals are going to come from unless Ward ( when fit ) can fill the breach. |
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Post by otterman on Oct 13, 2020 14:51:46 GMT 1
The squad is so threadbare, who else is going to score the goals? Nobody has been our go to striker for 3 seasons. You haven't answered my question. Your question is irrelevant in the absence of a proven striker in the squad. Improvisation is the only option. I seem to remember DW did it regularly with Hef and others. |
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Champers
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,422
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Post by Champers on Oct 13, 2020 14:58:11 GMT 1
You haven't answered my question. Your question is irrelevant in the absence of a proven striker in the squad. Improvisation is the only option. I seem to remember DW did it regularly with Hef and others. 😂😂😂 Are you actually being serious?! Theres a rather enormous difference between throwing a CB up front to cause a bit of chaos for 10 minutes when you're chasing a goal, and putting central midfielder there for a whole season. Oh, I know.....how about putting Joel Pereira there instead? I mean he's a big lad to aim at, and we may as well pay his wages to do something other than warm the bench, no? Plus, as he came to us from Man United, we'd then technically have a Premier League striker up front. Problem solved. |
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Post by kirkheatonterrier on Oct 13, 2020 14:59:18 GMT 1
There are 46 games in a season plus cup games. Apart from 16/17 season he hasn't played more than 3/4 of a season. If he was that good a striker I'm sure Cardiff wouldn't have let him leave on a free.
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Post by townmad9 on Oct 13, 2020 15:04:55 GMT 1
There are 46 games in a season plus cup games. Apart from 16/17 season he hasn't played more than 3/4 of a season. If he was that good a striker I'm sure Cardiff wouldn't have let him leave on a free. Cardiff offered him a new contract. He turned it down to come back up north. And they are just the games he played, I didn’t list the games he were on the bench and didn’t come on. The point is he doesn’t have a history of missing games through injury. |
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4 pts
Steve Kindon Terrier
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Post by 4 pts on Oct 13, 2020 15:05:34 GMT 1
Not really. Boro went up in 15/16 with Nugent as top scorer with 8. Cardiff in 17/18 with Paterson with 10. You're stuck in the 80's though so will probably continue to peddle the "need a 20 goal striker" cliche And let’s not forget the year we went up, our top scorer in the league was Kachunga with 12 goals Who played out wide for the most part. Our main striker "CF" Nahki got just 10 goals. Looking at L**ds last season, Bamford got 16 but most of their goals came from wide areas |
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Post by rastrick32 on Oct 13, 2020 15:31:54 GMT 1
Strikers come as a package nowadays. It's all talk of front three's. Although I'm a big counter attacking fan, I long for the days of 4:4:2. Two up top, big man, little man. One holding, one moving. One back to goal, one breaking. Flicks and combinations. Telepathy. Jumpers for goalposts.
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Oct 13, 2020 16:18:42 GMT 1
This is the exception rather than the rule surely? Not really. Boro went up in 15/16 with Nugent as top scorer with 8. Cardiff in 17/18 with Paterson with 10. You're stuck in the 80's though so will probably continue to peddle the "need a 20 goal striker" cliche Goals win games, it's not as if we're blessed with goals elsewhere in the team. I could understand if we had a midfielder scoring 12/13/14 a season but we don't. |
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Post by charless on Oct 13, 2020 16:20:04 GMT 1
For what it's worth, I honestly don't think a top-tier striker is the right plan. I realize that sounds a bit crazy, so let me try to explain a bit further.
Obviously we're on a budget. We've done a good job at being...opaque as to precisely what that budget it, but it's fair to say that whatever the budget, we're trying to do the best we can with limited resources.
There are two major problems with buying strikers:
1) They're typically more expensive than any other position, particularly when one feels it's important to buy a "proven" striker. In part, this is because there aren't many statistics which are easy to keep that track performance. For example, it's difficult to keep good statistics on which defender is at fault for allowing a goal or even quality chance, as often we don't know what all of the assignments were. Goals scored is one of the few statistics which everybody keeps in a consistent way, so that different scouts/statisticians watching the same games will all come to the same tally.
2) Their goalscoring record is strongly dependent upon their exact role and fit within a system. The best strikers in the world can't score if they never get service, and even I'd score a few goals if you give me 100 unmarked chances from inside the box or let me be the penalty taker for a season for a dominant team. So the problem is, there isn't such a strong correlation between goalscoring record for the same player at different clubs.
When you put these things together, it basically says that an expensive striker is typically the worst investment you can make in improving a club, as you're paying the highest transfer fee/wage for the least certain improvement. There's a really good study on this from a few years back that I can't find at the moment, but I can try to dig up if there's interest. For what it's worth, if you have a squad of average players and get to spend money improving one position, the most efficient expenditure is improving your goalkeeping. Performance is more consistent across teams because it's much more individual, and the average price needed to get a keeper who will find an extra, say, 5 points per season is lower than at any other position.
So, what does this mean for us? Well, the business model is that we're still a developmental and selling club in the long term. And because clubs pay for past performance when it comes to goals, the most efficient place for us to develop young talent is at striker. After all, if you create enough chances, some of them will go in, and suddenly your young player has scored 15 goals in the Championship and somebody will pay 10-15M for him. This is a much better profit than at, say, defender, because different scouts will disagree on the quality of a defender, but everybody agrees that a striker has scored 15 goals.
So, we shouldn't be buying expensive strikers with a proven track record. What we should be doing instead is investing in chance creators with a proven track record. If you told me I could spend 10M to replace Grant and Kongolo, it's Diakhaby, Pritchard, and Mbenza I'd be mainly looking to replace, probably with about two players between those positions. As for striker, I do think we need about two more in the squad simply because we're so short of numbers, but instead of paying for quality, I'd be looking to give an opportunity to a couple of players from the lower leagues, or foreign developmental talent, maybe 19-22 years old, who we could get in the 250k-500k range. That seems to be the sweet spot where the player has a little bit of a pedigree, and it's likely that one of them gets some playing time for us and scores 10 goals simply because he's given enough opportunities, then suddenly it's a 5M+ asset with relatively little risk.
But the value for a club that depends upon player developments and profit to balance the books is always going to come in developing cheap strikers and pumping up their statistics by investing in players who can create quality attacks for them to finish. If we create enough chances, we'll end up finishing enough of them.
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Post by rastrick32 on Oct 13, 2020 16:20:11 GMT 1
Not really. Boro went up in 15/16 with Nugent as top scorer with 8. Cardiff in 17/18 with Paterson with 10. You're stuck in the 80's though so will probably continue to peddle the "need a 20 goal striker" cliche Goals win games, it's not as if we're blessed with goals elsewhere in the team. I could understand if we had a midfielder scoring 12/13/14 a season but we don't. Just play O'Brien up top....😆😆😆 |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Oct 13, 2020 16:20:51 GMT 1
Strikers come as a package nowadays. It's all talk of front three's. Although I'm a big counter attacking fan, I long for the days of 4:4:2. Two up top, big man, little man. One holding, one moving. One back to goal, one breaking. Flicks and combinations. Telepathy. Jumpers for goalposts. Counter attacking relies on speed and currently that's just a banned substance as far as our players are concerned. |
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