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Post by The Sheriff Strikes Back on May 30, 2022 8:38:54 GMT 1
www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/29/shudder-think-jon-moss-managing-premier-league-referees-next/?utm_content=footballI shudder to think about Jon Moss managing Premier League referees next season Moss' retirement is not a moment too soon and his calls in the Championship play-off final left Huddersfield rightly aggrieved I do not think I am alone in expressing happiness that Sunday saw Jonathan Moss’s last game as a referee. It is not before time. I now shudder at the thought that next season he will be managing his colleagues that operate in the Premier League. Huddersfield Town will have every right to feel aggrieved that he failed to award a penalty on not one but two separate occasions. Moss' performance was frankly poor and highlights for me that in recent months we have witnessed some seemingly lazy officiating, with the man in the middle over-relying on the video assistant referee (Var) to throw him a lifebelt. The first blunder involved the foul after 73 minutes by Nottingham Forest's Jack Colback on Huddersfield Town's Harry Toffolo, who turned to Moss expecting him to point to the penalty spot but to his horror he was shown a yellow card for what the referee considered to be an act of simulation. Var Paul Tierney decided not to intervene, judging that Moss had not made a clear and obvious error. There was contact between Toffolo's right leg and that of Colback and although the Huddersfield player made the most of the challenge, the incident should have been reviewed. I suggest that had Moss pointed to the penalty spot, no one would have complained, and neither would Var have intervened. There was worse to come 11 minutes later. Moss and Tierney jointly failed to ensure that an even clearer penalty shout was denied when Huddersfield's Lewis O’Brien was brought down by a clumsy foul by Forest substitute Max Lowe. Moss might well have had his vision impaired by players in front of him. But let's face it, one of my regular criticisms of Moss has been his levels of fitness and lack of dynamic movement which fall far short of what is expected at the elite level. So where was Tierney on this, was he in a rush to get home from Stockley Park? Did he see what I and millions of others saw? If there was an element of doubt on that first appeal, there was none with this second one, it was a very obvious penalty kick.
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ambryboy
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Post by ambryboy on May 30, 2022 8:42:01 GMT 1
Very interesting analysis from an objective source. We need to channel this frustration to motivate the players and finish top 2 next season.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2022 8:43:44 GMT 1
Football is dead, that's about as corrupt as it can get yesterday in a game that is worth so much money to both clubs. I really aren't sure how Forest fans can celebrate that victory knowing that its basically cheating that promoted them.
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Post by teddytheterrier on May 30, 2022 8:47:06 GMT 1
Yeah we were up against it yesterday from the start. Big club forest blah blah blah. Let’s face it when we played reading it was 2 clubs no one gave a fuck about unless you were town or reading. Not sure why but my brother had talksport on the drive down yesterday and it was all forest this Steve cooper that. No mention of town. Forest could have filled Wembley 3 times over and had fans locked outside blah blah.
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Post by specialun on May 30, 2022 8:53:10 GMT 1
Far more eloquently put than I could without ranting
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Post by galpharm2400 on May 30, 2022 11:22:10 GMT 1
The amount of non aligned comment on the decisions is quite pertinent.
Forest may well say they have had decisions go against them during the season, we certainly have but not with the blanket of VAR to check them.
That there were 2 incidents only adds to the belief that collusion before the game of the officials had taken place. The fat man 'running' the game was not to be questioned or put in any position where he was second guessed.? He was never to be asked to re look at any decision, VAR was therefore neutered.
The bad taste left in the mouth is probably spreading throughout the general fan population re football and the ruling bodies.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on May 30, 2022 11:37:47 GMT 1
Football is dead, that's about as corrupt as it can get yesterday in a game that is worth so much money to both clubs. I really aren't sure how Forest fans can celebrate that victory knowing that its basically cheating that promoted them. We’d have celebrated as wildly as they did, had those decisions gone against them? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2022 11:40:40 GMT 1
www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/29/shudder-think-jon-moss-managing-premier-league-referees-next/?utm_content=footballI shudder to think about Jon Moss managing Premier League referees next season Moss' retirement is not a moment too soon and his calls in the Championship play-off final left Huddersfield rightly aggrieved I do not think I am alone in expressing happiness that Sunday saw Jonathan Moss’s last game as a referee. It is not before time. I now shudder at the thought that next season he will be managing his colleagues that operate in the Premier League. Huddersfield Town will have every right to feel aggrieved that he failed to award a penalty on not one but two separate occasions. Moss' performance was frankly poor and highlights for me that in recent months we have witnessed some seemingly lazy officiating, with the man in the middle over-relying on the video assistant referee (Var) to throw him a lifebelt. The first blunder involved the foul after 73 minutes by Nottingham Forest's Jack Colback on Huddersfield Town's Harry Toffolo, who turned to Moss expecting him to point to the penalty spot but to his horror he was shown a yellow card for what the referee considered to be an act of simulation. Var Paul Tierney decided not to intervene, judging that Moss had not made a clear and obvious error. There was contact between Toffolo's right leg and that of Colback and although the Huddersfield player made the most of the challenge, the incident should have been reviewed. I suggest that had Moss pointed to the penalty spot, no one would have complained, and neither would Var have intervened. There was worse to come 11 minutes later. Moss and Tierney jointly failed to ensure that an even clearer penalty shout was denied when Huddersfield's Lewis O’Brien was brought down by a clumsy foul by Forest substitute Max Lowe. Moss might well have had his vision impaired by players in front of him. But let's face it, one of my regular criticisms of Moss has been his levels of fitness and lack of dynamic movement which fall far short of what is expected at the elite level. So where was Tierney on this, was he in a rush to get home from Stockley Park? Did he see what I and millions of others saw? If there was an element of doubt on that first appeal, there was none with this second one, it was a very obvious penalty kick. |
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Post by Lard Buttie on May 30, 2022 11:43:13 GMT 1
VAR was bought into the final beacuse of the magnitude of the prize to be won and to help get the big decisions right in the spirit of fairness. The fact the 2nd penalty appeal didn't even go to VAR is a head scratcher.
But we've not had any luck with penalty decisions in all 3 play off games. Bad luck or a conspiracy??
Either way it's not sour grapes re VAR and the penalties - had we been given one penalty & scored we would only have been level.
We played well enough second half to be in the game, the momentum would have been with us & who knows what would have happened then.
Thats what the bad taste is in my mouth and I reckon any other fan of any another club who was dealt those harsh cards woud feel that as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2022 11:43:39 GMT 1
Tierney and var let the game down by not reviewing the challenge on o brian it was a penalty on the toffolo one not as clear for me but town were denied that there is no doubt about that
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Post by galpharm2400 on May 30, 2022 11:44:25 GMT 1
Football is dead, that's about as corrupt as it can get yesterday in a game that is worth so much money to both clubs. I really aren't sure how Forest fans can celebrate that victory knowing that its basically cheating that promoted them. We’d have celebrated as wildly as they did, had those decisions gone against them? Thats not the question, the question is would they have gone for us the other way around? Forest never got in our box to test it. The only two bits of real attacking the box football in the whole game ended up with 2 incredibly obvious fouls.?? The excuses given are absolute tosh and the concencus of opinion from the neutral observers is one of utter amazement they were not given? I feel we didnt do enough to win but the only real incisive moves in the game were stopped by fouls??? |
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Post by themanfromatlantis on May 30, 2022 12:02:09 GMT 1
That’s why I’ve said VAR needs to be manned by trained and impartial people, who are just there to interpret the laws of the game. They wouldn’t need to go on a fecking degree course would they…
But keeping VAR as a self governing mechanism, it just means these people are marking their own homework.
When you contrast and compare these functions with other major sports, there are 2 things. The first is the amount of money involved in football at this level, I can’t think of another sport that uses this technology that has those sums involved. Secondly, top down, football has been embroiled with major financial scandal. Would you bet against this latest bunch being that much better than Blatter and his cronies, the poison will still be around in some form you’d think.
So it cycles round to a combination of the 2. Money has bought influence for centuries, when you add a self governing body like FIFA and the hierarchy, there has to be some Q’s raised about the integrity of the game.
Money and sport rarely mix when the sums involved attract people who are willing to exploit that, realise how much money they can make & how much power they can wield.
We have to look a little deeper than the multiple indiscretions by Refs who do have a difficult job, given the pace of the game nowadays. But they don’t help themselves by not using the tools they have available, PGMOL deserve every bit of criticism for crappy and subjective VAR referrals (or non-referrals as the case may be).
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Post by Terriersmad on May 30, 2022 12:09:18 GMT 1
That’s why I’ve said VAR needs to be manned by trained and impartial people, who are just there to interpret the laws of the game. They wouldn’t need to go on a fecking degree course would they…But keeping VAR as a self governing mechanism, it just means these people are marking their own homework. When you contrast and compare these functions with other major sports, there are 2 things. The first is the amount of money involved in football at this level, I can’t think of another sport that uses this technology that has those sums involved. Secondly, top down, football has been embroiled with major financial scandal. Would you bet against this latest bunch being that much better than Blatter and his cronies, the poison will still be around in some form you’d think. So it cycles round to a combination of the 2. Money has bought influence for centuries, when you add a self governing body like FIFA and the hierarchy, there has to be some Q’s raised about the integrity of the game. Money and sport rarely mix when the sums involved attract people who are willing to exploit that, realise how much money they can make & how much power they can wield. We have to look a little deeper than the multiple indiscretions by Refs who do have a difficult job, given the pace of the game nowadays. But they don’t help themselves by not using the tools they have available, PGMOL deserve every bit of criticism for crappy and subjective VAR referrals (or non-referrals as the case may be). You need a degree to understand offside these days. One of the biggest problems we have with it - refs and assistants have to go through a ten-stage mental flowchart any time they have to make a decision, which is far more likely to be wrong as a result. |
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Post by hazycosmicjive on May 30, 2022 12:20:07 GMT 1
As a Leeds fan looking in, I can only say that you were absolutely robbed and if it was us, we'd be spitting feathers.
Looks like another case to me of a weak referee failing to make a decision in the hope that VAR would bail him out. Unfortunately, Stevie Wonder was manning the monitor at Stockwell Park
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Post by themanfromatlantis on May 30, 2022 12:30:36 GMT 1
That’s one rule which I agree is way too complex (ask yourselves why that’s become subjective in recent yrs), but fouls are surely quite straightforward to analyse with the benefit of the technology?
This bollocks about him stalling and buying the foul. Firstly he wasn’t stalling, and secondly, the buying of free kicks goes on all the time outside the penalty area.
This is all getting a bit deep to be fair, but we live in the age where the quote supposedly uttered by Goebbels about mistruths becoming truths if you tell people for long enough. This is what happens with all controversies nowadays. By the end of the week 99% of Forest fans will have convinced themselves that neither were penalties, and come up with some of the subjective nonsense being bandied around today.
It’s shit, I’m a bit pissed off at the whole closed shop thing, but maybe Carlos is trying to get us to a point where we win games in merit, and we remove the ambiguity of refereeing decisions that have the real potential to be subjective.
It’s not just the non-award of those penalties yesterday, but it’s the immediate psychological effect on the Town players, who were probably thinking what the feck do we have to do here to get a goal…
Football will never be B&W, but it’s getting greyer by the season…
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crux
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Post by crux on May 30, 2022 12:34:25 GMT 1
As a Leeds fan looking in, I can only say that you were absolutely robbed and if it was us, we'd be spitting feathers. Looks like another case to me of a weak referee failing to make a decision in the hope that VAR would bail him out. Unfortunately, Stevie Wonder was manning the monitor at Stockwell ParkThat's the bit I don't understand at all. Moss may have made the decisions that he thought were correct from the one viewing he had, in the position he was in. For the first he obviously thought that Toffolo 'performed an act of simulation', or dived as we all know it, and Moss booked him for it. The replays the the VAR refs (there are 2 of them!) had available to them clearly show that Toffolo was fouled, so that the ref should at least recind the yellow card even if he doesn't think there is enough contact for a penalty. The second one is just a foul and penalty no question about it, I presume the VAR refs had gone home at that point - if they were watching that and didn't bring it to the refs attention then there is no point in VAR at all. |
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Post by galpharm2400 on May 30, 2022 14:08:16 GMT 1
As a Leeds fan looking in, I can only say that you were absolutely robbed and if it was us, we'd be spitting feathers. Looks like another case to me of a weak referee failing to make a decision in the hope that VAR would bail him out. Unfortunately, Stevie Wonder was manning the monitor at Stockwell ParkThat's the bit I don't understand at all. Moss may have made the decisions that he thought were correct from the one viewing he had, in the position he was in. For the first he obviously thought that Toffolo 'performed an act of simulation', or dived as we all know it, and Moss booked him for it. The replays the the VAR refs (there are 2 of them!) had available to them clearly show that Toffolo was fouled, so that the ref should at least recind the yellow card even if he doesn't think there is enough contact for a penalty. The second one is just a foul and penalty no question about it, I presume the VAR refs had gone home at that point - if they were watching that and didn't bring it to the refs attention then there is no point in VAR at all. I think you would find if the truth be told was that Moss had told the VAR that he would not be countermanded on any big decisions. They were therefore impotent. They did tell him about the Toffolo incident but he refused the onfield check. They didnt even discuss the o brien incident given the 'theatrical' waving away by Moss the second it occurred. He was the ref, VAR were not required and his first decision was going to be final. That he is a fat, unfit, bastard also seems to have bypassed the footballing authorities when choosing a ref in his last game who they probably knew was going to make every decision and ignore any advice or help. VAR is there to assist 3 blokes doing their best under tough circumstances, we are humans and we err or we dont see something, apparently not if you are a fat, unfit, bastard.? The worst humans are those that are inept or useless but simply wont accept it. |
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Post by tvor on May 30, 2022 14:29:16 GMT 1
If they overturned Moss’s decision on the first non-penalty, they would have also had to rescind Toff’s yellow. When do refs ever not stick together? It’s a corrupt boys club.
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Post by TommyTheTerrier on May 30, 2022 14:39:21 GMT 1
With the comfort blanket of VAR, you'd expect this to not happen, however we all know how useless a tool it is (or at least in the useless hands controlling it). I counted five potential penalty decisions (three on Toffolo alone) during our three playoff games, resulting in zero penalties, the officiating level is sub par to say the least.
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Post by runner76 on May 30, 2022 14:46:26 GMT 1
Very interesting analysis from an objective source. We need to channel this frustration to motivate the players and finish top 2 next season. Exactly. Sod this play off nonsense - let's just have a blinder next season and get automatic! UTT |
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Post by Galpharmer on May 30, 2022 14:48:16 GMT 1
Very interesting analysis from an objective source. We need to channel this frustration to motivate the players and finish top 2 next season. Exactly. Sod this play off nonsense - let's just have a blinder next season and get automatic! UTT And then get shafted by VAR weekly. Bravo. |
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Post by Torquayterrier on May 30, 2022 14:50:14 GMT 1
VAR was bought into the final beacuse of the magnitude of the prize to be won and to help get the big decisions right in the spirit of fairness. The fact the 2nd penalty appeal didn't even go to VAR is a head scratcher. But we've not had any luck with penalty decisions in all 3 play off games. Bad luck or a conspiracy?? Either way it's not sour grapes re VAR and the penalties - had we been given one penalty & scored we would only have been level. We played well enough second half to be in the game, the momentum would have been with us & who knows what would have happened then. Thats what the bad taste is in my mouth and I reckon any other fan of any another club who was dealt those harsh cards woud feel that as well. I agree, we were well in control during the period of both penalty incidents and we all saw how Forest got rattled when SU came back at them in second leg of their semi final. The momentum was definitely with us. At 1-1 with 10 mins to go or less who knows how it might have played out? We'll never know and it irks. |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on May 30, 2022 15:00:31 GMT 1
The rejected appeals vs Luton were much less of a problem, and not just because we eventually won.
There was no VAR, and mistakes happen. Even the stonewaller vs Toffolo 8 seconds into the first leg, you could argue human error (maybe he didn't get a good enough view, maybe he bottled it due to the timing but that in itself is arguably a human error).
And had VAR been in place I'd like to think that it would have been given.
Sadly, for all that I'd like to think it, that doesn't mean I'm right.
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Post by dewsburyborn on May 30, 2022 15:07:22 GMT 1
For me the real issue
here is who allocated the game to Moss ? Mike Riley ? Other than the obvious geographical issues...Leeds based, so is he biased or is he bending the other to prove he is not biased .... the fact us he is next season the head guy at PL referees...and their boss. Was Tierney or whoever else VAR ref could have been, really going to overrule a Moss error on his golden farewell ? That's your premier games next season kissed goodbye, feller. All in all, a real shit show ...
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Post by H7 on May 30, 2022 15:50:16 GMT 1
I was actually happy when VAR was announced as I thought it would stop the game being ruined by a poor decision  I mean it really doesn't get any worse than that, does it? Sheer and utter incompetence of the highest order backed up by the fact that the absolute overwhelming majority are in no doubt both incidents were penalties. Would love to hear the conversation between Moss and Tierney for the Toff pen.. 'Ok Jon, Toffolo has pushed the ball past Colback who has dangled a lazy leg and clearly caught him, a bit theatrical but that's irrelevant as it's still a foul.. My recommendation is therefore to stick with your original decision of a yellow for simulation and don't bother going to look for yourself old chap the screen is about 50 yards away'. Absolutely bonkers. And to then not even take a closer look at the O'Brien one, it just stinks. Really hope Dean is seeking some kind of explanation of how these situations were handled and the thought process behind appointing a referee who is no longer deemed good enough for elite level games. |
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Post by nuggett22 on May 30, 2022 15:55:02 GMT 1
The penalty appeal and Toffolos yellow card wasn’t overturned so as not to embarrass Moss in his last game . There can be no other explanation.
Perhaps Tierney was talking to his Manchester City friends at the time when Lewis was fouled . A baffling non intervention.
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Post by ricksta on May 30, 2022 16:15:23 GMT 1
In every other sport in which video technology has been introduced, it has led to fairer decisions being made.
The subtle difference is that in football, the game is not stopped when a contentious incident has occurred and this is compounded by the fact that in football on notable occasions (including yesterday) the decision has been plainly wrong.
When there has been a contentious decision, the game should be stopped (as happens in rugby) and whilst it is reasonable for the referee to relay his on-field decision to the VAR referee, the VAR referee should be able to overturn it with impunity.
Furthermore, as per rugby and cricket - the VAR referee should give a clear rationale for their decision.
I think all fans want fair, consistent and well-reasoned decisions.
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Post by Torquayterrier on May 30, 2022 16:31:13 GMT 1
But is Tierny going to go against someone who he knows will be influencing his career path from next season? For that reason alone Moss shouldnt have been involved in yesterdays game irrespective of his failings in other aspects.
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Post by Mastercracker on May 30, 2022 16:42:55 GMT 1
The whole reffing scenario in appointing Moss was a shitshow and most of us saw this coming once it was announced.
The standard of reffing in this country is farcical, as is their complete lack of accountability. Why do they get to just remain silent? They are highly paid professionals, not amateurs reffing u15s games.
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Post by Malvern Tom (WAHLS) on May 30, 2022 16:46:49 GMT 1
If that had been Toffs 2nd yellow, I don't think the V. A. R. pair would have dared ignore it. They wouldn't have allowed a sending off when they had SEEN that the player hadn't dived. So in my eyes they are culpable of minimal incompetent or maximum cheating.
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