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Post by dugnet on Sept 4, 2022 7:14:41 GMT 1
Just reading the BBC sport page this morning about a day of controversy in the Premier League over VAR.
There's obviously nothing that will change what happened to us but, typically, a few top teams get some questionable outcomes and the media machine suddenly comes to life.
Tony Pulis made a very good point that VAR isn't necessarily the issue but it is the competence of those responsible for it's operation.
It is however galling that a couple of "top teams" get a bad/debatable call and the issue is suddenly a top focus. We get two dreadful calls, which you could argue cost us relatively far more, and it is a footnote.
This is one reason our club needs to aim higher and get away from this "little Huddersfield"/"moment in time" mentatality. I completely appreciate that getting an outcome changed is realistically impossible but those responsible for these decisions should be held to account. If individuals are seen to be below the standard required they should be removed, appreciating that Moss was going any way.
Just because a high profile manager like Moyes makes a fuss shouldn't mean it should get more attention. Equally the media should be focusing on all poor/questionable outcomes in order that those responsible are put under proper professional scrutiny.
Hopefully something will happen to get these decisions right, or, to eliminate the need for VAR in some cases and leave the decision to the on field referee.
As I say nothing wasn't going to change our situation but it should be referred to as an example of where the system isn't working. Moreover the impact of not getting those decisions right can be massive for any club. Look where we are now, get a penalty and back into the game and the outcome could have been very different.
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Sept 4, 2022 7:36:10 GMT 1
It’s a joke. Some of the decisions yesterday would get people sacked in other lines of work for negligence.
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Post by stevvy on Sept 4, 2022 8:38:17 GMT 1
Some of the decisions yesterday were beyond bad. The level of incompetence is ridiculous.
West Ham's goal should never have been ruled out. End of. Terrible decision. Mendy is a fucking soft piece of shit if he was genuinely so badly hurt.
Newcastle's goal being ruled out is borderline criminal, especially as apparently the ref wasn't given all relevant angles by VAR including the main 1 showing the clear shove by the defender (ironically the ref got the decision right first time, and had he been given all the angles you'd hope he'd have stuck with his original decision and given the goal).
Villa's goal that was ruled out may not have been a goal anyway had the flag not gone up as some Man City players did stop when they heard the whistle, but at the same time, they get told to keep their flag down until the end of a move unless a player is clearly offside, yet on this occasion he put his flag up early, the ref blew early, yet he wasn't even close to being offside!
The standard of officiating (and not just in the PL) has absolutely plummeted in recent years. Having current refs in charge of VAR isn't helping either, as they're worse than incompetent regardless of whether they're on the pitch or in a room.
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Sept 4, 2022 8:47:35 GMT 1
The last paragraph is bang on to be honest. So the individuals who get decisions wrong (the ref on the pitch) are advised by another set of individuals in a room (the same refs who used to be on the pitch and get decisions wrong)! It needs to be just ex players in the VAR room. End of. Hard bastards. Vinnie Jones, Souness, Keane, Stuart Pearce.
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Post by ilsonterrier on Sept 4, 2022 8:49:11 GMT 1
Some of the decisions yesterday were beyond bad. The level of incompetence is ridiculous. West Ham's goal should never have been ruled out. End of. Terrible decision. Mendy is a fucking soft piece of shit if he was genuinely so badly hurt. Newcastle's goal being ruled out is borderline criminal, especially as apparently the ref wasn't given all relevant angles by VAR including the main 1 showing the clear shove by the defender (ironically the ref got the decision right first time, and had he been given all the angles you'd hope he'd have stuck with his original decision and given the goal). Villa's goal that was ruled out may not have been a goal anyway had the flag not gone up as some Man City players did stop when they heard the whistle, but at the same time, they get told to keep their flag down until the end of a move unless a player is clearly offside, yet on this occasion he put his flag up early, the ref blew early, yet he wasn't even close to being offside! The standard of officiating (and not just in the PL) has absolutely plummeted in recent years. Having current refs in charge of VAR isn't helping either, as they're worse than incompetent regardless of whether they're on the pitch or in a room. I've complained for months (in fact I'm fed up of hearing myself) that one of the big problems with VAR is that they only look at one angle. They consider the same angle over and over again whereas a quick look at a different angle could well help them make a decision very quickly - the "foul" on Toffolo at Wembley being a classic example. One of the reasons it generally works so well in rugby league is that they look at all the angles necessary to make the decision.
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Sept 4, 2022 8:56:08 GMT 1
Just watching the Newcastle game on MOTD….. the commentator uttered the two words “Lee Mason…..”
Enough said.
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Post by The King's Head 1230 on Sept 4, 2022 8:57:58 GMT 1
Rugby League & Cricket have got it 99% right you can hear & see how they come to a decision. There a respect from the players & if a camera angle doesn't catch the moment well stand by the decision made.
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Post by yorkterrier on Sept 4, 2022 9:01:32 GMT 1
Some of the decisions yesterday were beyond bad. The level of incompetence is ridiculous. West Ham's goal should never have been ruled out. End of. Terrible decision. Mendy is a fucking soft piece of shit if he was genuinely so badly hurt. Newcastle's goal being ruled out is borderline criminal, especially as apparently the ref wasn't given all relevant angles by VAR including the main 1 showing the clear shove by the defender (ironically the ref got the decision right first time, and had he been given all the angles you'd hope he'd have stuck with his original decision and given the goal). Villa's goal that was ruled out may not have been a goal anyway had the flag not gone up as some Man City players did stop when they heard the whistle, but at the same time, they get told to keep their flag down until the end of a move unless a player is clearly offside, yet on this occasion he put his flag up early, the ref blew early, yet he wasn't even close to being offside! The standard of officiating (and not just in the PL) has absolutely plummeted in recent years. Having current refs in charge of VAR isn't helping either, as they're worse than incompetent regardless of whether they're on the pitch or in a room. The main debate over the Villa disallowed goal has been missed by all the pundits and stevie G in so much as he couldn't have been offside as the ball was played BACKWORDS.
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Post by stevvy on Sept 4, 2022 9:03:05 GMT 1
I noticed that too on the replays, which makes it even more ridiculous
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Post by stevvy on Sept 4, 2022 9:09:08 GMT 1
Rugby League & Cricket have got it 99% right you can hear & see how they come to a decision. There a respect from the players & if a camera angle doesn't catch the moment well stand by the decision made. Agree 100%. If there's nothing 100% conclusive to overturn the decision, they stick with the on field decision. Rugby certainly used to be a case of the ref wasn't sure so he'd just send it to the video ref. At least now the ref has a say in the outcome by giving his own opinion first, and then it's basically a case of "can you prove that I got it wrong? If not, you stick with my decision" (that tweak was a definite positive in my view). Plus, as you say, you can hear the video ref giving his opinion, asking for any other angles, etc
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Post by turbo2 on Sept 4, 2022 9:12:29 GMT 1
The biggest issue is there’s no accountability.
Lee mason should be sacked, it’s his job to know the rules and with every possible angle he’s made the wrong call. Inexcusable.
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Post by stevvy on Sept 4, 2022 9:16:51 GMT 1
I know Dermot Gallagher tends to agree with the refs decisions on Ref Watch on Sky, but good luck to him trying to justify some of the decisions from yesterday.
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Post by ilsonterrier on Sept 4, 2022 9:21:41 GMT 1
I know Dermot Gallagher tends to agree with the refs decisions on Ref Watch on Sky, but good luck to him trying to justify some of the decisions from yesterday. Peter Walton is exactly the same on BT. The commentator will ask him his opinion, he'll wait to see what the actual decision is, and then give his opinion - which is the same as the decision given. 🤔
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Sept 4, 2022 9:22:10 GMT 1
It’s the total lack of open discussion from the people who make these decisions. For some reason they think they are untouchable. They think they are part of the CIA. Grow a pair of balls and have a live 30 minute TV broadcast every Sunday/Monday with the referee, VAR refs and the 2 opposing managers from each game. I’d pay a monthly subscription for that 😀
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Post by townarentbest on Sept 4, 2022 9:28:11 GMT 1
Tony Pulis made a very good point that VAR isn't necessarily the issue but it is the competence of those responsible for it's operation. i think what he and we often forget, is that hidden behind the acronym, the people who operate VAR *are* VAR. Theres nothing clever about it, it’s not AI or machine learning, it’s a REFEREE watching a screen. Refereeing has always been about a referee using his judgement and getting things as reasonably correct as he can, with the understanding that he’ll get some wrong, “the referees decision is final, even when it’s not right”. It’s bad enough in those circumstances where the main referee has to discuss with one of his on field assistants on a decision, but to add effectively a 4th referee into the mix, is and always was, asking for trouble and confusion. VAR’s and other systems should be used for statements of fact only. Was it offside, did a ball cross a line, that kind of stuff. Leave judgement and opinion to one man, and allow him to make and learn from mistakes. Football doesn’t need VAR.
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Post by ruggedivy on Sept 4, 2022 9:30:55 GMT 1
It's the referees that are the problem. Not the technology. The decisions against West Ham and Newcastle yesterday were appalling. And there have been many more so far this season. Howard Webb has a huge job on his hands!
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crux
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
[M0:0]
Posts: 4,058
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Post by crux on Sept 4, 2022 10:16:34 GMT 1
It's the referees that are the problem. Not the technology. The decisions against West Ham and Newcastle yesterday were appalling. And there have been many more so far this season. Howard Webb has a huge job on his hands! .... not helped by the fact that players cheat given any opportunity.
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Post by Orinoco on Sept 4, 2022 10:17:30 GMT 1
It's the referees that are the problem. Not the technology. The decisions against West Ham and Newcastle yesterday were appalling. And there have been many more so far this season. Howard Webb has a huge job on his hands! .... not helped by the fact that players cheat given any opportunity. That is so true.
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Post by foxtrot666 on Sept 4, 2022 10:29:15 GMT 1
The biggest issue is there’s no accountability. Lee mason should be sacked, it’s his job to know the rules and with every possible angle he’s made the wrong call. Inexcusable. I can't understand how you can watch that incident at Newcastle 5/6 times from every angle and not see the push in the back causing the collision, shocking from Mason who should have to explain to Howe how he came to that decision.
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Champers
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,417
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Post by Champers on Sept 4, 2022 10:32:04 GMT 1
Rugby League & Cricket have got it 99% right you can hear & see how they come to a decision. There a respect from the players & if a camera angle doesn't catch the moment well stand by the decision made. Gary Neville said in a recent live Overlap fans discussion, that he doesn't understand why they aren't mic'd up for transparency, as they as commentators are privy to the VAR audio at the time, and said the audio often goes a long way to helping even him understand how they get to some of these seemingly controversial decisions. The fact they are so reluctant to do this does nothing but arouse further suspicions of corruption from supporters.
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Post by isleofmanterrier on Sept 4, 2022 10:34:30 GMT 1
I’ve completely lost any faith that VAR can work in football tbh. There’s far too many variables to come to a decision. Goal line technology & offsides only for me. VAR/similar technology can work in other sports where a decision is black and white. Football is all about interpretation. How many times have you seen pundits all have different views on a decision?
If the powers that be insist on carrying on with VAR then big changes need to be made in how it’s used.
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Post by sabailand on Sept 4, 2022 10:34:50 GMT 1
I know Dermot Gallagher tends to agree with the refs decisions on Ref Watch on Sky, but good luck to him trying to justify some of the decisions from yesterday. Peter Walton is exactly the same on BT. The commentator will ask him his opinion, he'll wait to see what the actual decision is, and then give his opinion - which is the same as the decision given. 🤔 Yes men towing the party line, it would be great if they told it how it is and called out terrible decisions for what they are, it would cause a right furore in reffing circles and be a major footballing story, so it will never happen.
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Post by turbo2 on Sept 4, 2022 10:43:12 GMT 1
The biggest issue is there’s no accountability. Lee mason should be sacked, it’s his job to know the rules and with every possible angle he’s made the wrong call. Inexcusable. I can't understand how you can watch that incident at Newcastle 5/6 times from every angle and not see the push in the back causing the collision, shocking from Mason who should have to explain to Howe how he came to that decision. Jesus Christ. Just seen West Ham’s. It gets worse. Appalling
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Post by Porrohman on Sept 4, 2022 10:46:08 GMT 1
Any mentions of the 2 "questionable"(?!!) decisions that saved LiVARpool yesterday ?
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Post by turbo2 on Sept 4, 2022 10:46:31 GMT 1
I’ve completely lost any faith that VAR can work in football tbh. There’s far too many variables to come to a decision. Goal line technology & offsides only for me. VAR/similar technology can work in other sports where a decision is black and white. Football is all about interpretation. How many times have you seen pundits all have different views on a decision? If the powers that be insist on carrying on with VAR then big changes need to be made in how it’s used. Agree. Interpretation is the key. Added to the issue is lying managers. Patrick viera says it’s a clear foul. What an utter bellend
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Post by turbo2 on Sept 4, 2022 10:47:42 GMT 1
Any mentions of the 2 "questionable"(?!!) decisions that saved LiVARpool yesterday ? It was invented to give the big clubs more advantage. Every time they concede they try and find a way to rule it out.
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Post by isleofmanterrier on Sept 4, 2022 10:53:14 GMT 1
I’ve completely lost any faith that VAR can work in football tbh. There’s far too many variables to come to a decision. Goal line technology & offsides only for me. VAR/similar technology can work in other sports where a decision is black and white. Football is all about interpretation. How many times have you seen pundits all have different views on a decision? If the powers that be insist on carrying on with VAR then big changes need to be made in how it’s used. Agree. Interpretation is the key. Added to the issue is lying managers. Patrick viera says it’s a clear foul. What an utter bellend Tuchel said he thought they got lucky with VAR then followed it up saying he thought they were the correct decisions. Utter nonsense!
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Post by 3Pipe on Sept 4, 2022 11:09:20 GMT 1
It's one big boy's club, that's why there's no accountability. They're backing each others terrible decisions without the backbone to do the right thing - eg our play-off final just gone.
Tony Pulis is correct with his point that VAR isn't the issue but it is the competence of those responsible for it's operation.
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Post by runner76 on Sept 4, 2022 11:12:13 GMT 1
If anyone has any faith in the VAR system after our Wembley final, they must be on very good drugs.
That West Ham goal should stand every day. Stupid decision
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Post by oldrain on Sept 4, 2022 11:29:32 GMT 1
Football as most supporters remember it is dead it’s money money money and minute offside decisions plus refs that are very questionable
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