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Post by Richard1986 on Feb 18, 2023 15:14:34 GMT 1
How much do small clubs get from the TV license police/tax?
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Feb 23, 2023 1:19:16 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64536218New regulator for the domestic game. The big Q is whether or not the money will allow it to happen, or how toothless it may or may not be… There’s a lot to clean up in the game…
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 23, 2023 10:44:20 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64536218New regulator for the domestic game. The big Q is whether or not the money will allow it to happen, or how toothless it may or may not be… There’s a lot to clean up in the game… They can certainly do a bit of good when it comes to protecting the game from itself.. and by itself I mean the money men who are snaffling up all the clubs now and are 100% interested in getting a return. Should end any idea of joining a European support league ( some would argue thats a bad thing ) ,, stop an owner changing the club colours, club badge etc without the fans approval etc. And maybe see a bit more money cascade down the pyramid. But I can see what Sullivan at West Ham was saying about this in the press too. Football in the country is extremely successful as it is, especially the PL. Extremely successful on a global scale. Is government interference going to improve that or ( this being the government ) just cock it up? And if people think its only the PL that has benefitted, then they should look back to pre 1990 at where the rest of the pyramid was. The stadiums clubs played in.. the attendances they got.. the financial state the game was in. The rest of the pyramid was in a shit state before the PL, so the improvements have been throughout the game not just at the top end. |
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goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by goodbet on Feb 23, 2023 13:02:14 GMT 1
The FA and the Football authorities could not run football and messed things up and it was no wonder that the Premier League came in to being. Just look at VAR.
Since then they have sat back and let the top clubs in the Premier League take a bigger and bigger share of the cake.
Can the government make a bigger mess than it is now?
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Post by Porrohman on Feb 23, 2023 13:07:04 GMT 1
The FA and the Football authorities could not run football and messed things up and it was no wonder that the Premier League came in to being. Just look at VAR. Since then they have sat back and let the top clubs in the Premier League take a bigger and bigger share of the cake. Can the government make a bigger mess than it is now? Well they've fucked everything they've touched, so far |
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Post by sabailand on Feb 23, 2023 15:22:45 GMT 1
If with the emphasis on 'if' these measures are carried out then its good for the game, as for the European super league that never was, without the TV monied English teams it would have nowhere near enough appeal, not saying that cos we have the best teams cos we dont neccessarily, (Real madrid on tues anyone).
It may yet happen without English teams, but for all those who say it will happen...well im not so sure myself, at least not in the form initially proposed.
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 23, 2023 16:46:08 GMT 1
The FA and the Football authorities could not run football and messed things up and it was no wonder that the Premier League came in to being. Just look at VAR. Since then they have sat back and let the top clubs in the Premier League take a bigger and bigger share of the cake. Can the government make a bigger mess than it is now? You say its a mess now, but the games never been as popular. Think attendances now are larger than they were in those post war years where the game boomed. Theyre on a different planet all together than the decade before the PL began! Stadiums are on a different level than they were too all the way down the pyramid. The facilities, the youth systems, the community work clubs do. Yes a handful of clubs dominate because they have the most money but that was no different pre 1992. The big city clubs with the big fanbases tended to win everything... with the odd exception like Cloughs Forest... but we had leicester win it from nowhere a few years ago. I dont think the games in a mess at all.. far from it.. its not perfect for everyone, but its never been as healthy in many ways at the same time. Compare it to the 1980s.. tiny crowds in crumbling stadiums,, hooliganism all over the place and football ruined by endless offside traps... thats when football was in a mess. But I think it does need protecting from all the financial vultures who are queueing up to tap into that gravy train and will do that as much as they can without giving the game, its history, traditions and especially not the fans a second thought. |
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Feb 23, 2023 16:59:48 GMT 1
The FA and the Football authorities could not run football and messed things up and it was no wonder that the Premier League came in to being. Just look at VAR. Since then they have sat back and let the top clubs in the Premier League take a bigger and bigger share of the cake. Can the government make a bigger mess than it is now? You say its a mess now, but the games never been as popular. Think attendances now are larger than they were in those post war years where the game boomed. Theyre on a different planet all together than the decade before the PL began! Stadiums are on a different level than they were too all the way down the pyramid. The facilities, the youth systems, the community work clubs do. Yes a handful of clubs dominate because they have the most money but that was no different pre 1992. The big city clubs with the big fanbases tended to win everything... with the odd exception like Cloughs Forest... but we had leicester win it from nowhere a few years ago. I dont think the games in a mess at all.. far from it.. its not perfect for everyone, but its never been as healthy in many ways at the same time. Compare it to the 1980s.. tiny crowds in crumbling stadiums,, hooliganism all over the place and football ruined by endless offside traps... thats when football was in a mess. But I think it does need protecting from all the financial vultures who are queueing up to tap into that gravy train and will do that as much as they can without giving the game, its history, traditions and especially not the fans a second thought. Fully agree with the majority of what you’ve said but the only problem I see is that it will be protected from all the financial vultures by all the financial vultures. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 17:11:52 GMT 1
It's not just about English football - the PL is killing the game at a European level, if not globally. Put it this way - the transfer window just gone, Chelsea spent more than every club in The Bundesliga, La Liga, Ligue 1 and Serie A COMBINED. link |
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Feb 23, 2023 17:26:03 GMT 1
The game would have evolved without the money Slapps.
When you say stadiums are better, can you tell me how many stadia have been upgraded, changed etc., as a consequence of the TV money?
Down in L1 and below I don’t see much in the way of ground improvements as a result of this.
Sabs, have to disagree on the ESL, I think it’ll happen. The direction of travel for the last 30yrs has been that the footballing organisations are controlled more and more by their sponsors. If those people want the ESL to happen, then it’ll just follow the same pattern. It’s the inclusion of English clubs that’s the sticking point here, but how many of those owners will stand by when a few £bn is being waved in front of their noses.
It’ll be similar to the LIV/PGA shenanigans that’s happening in golf.
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goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by goodbet on Feb 23, 2023 17:34:01 GMT 1
The FA and the Football authorities could not run football and messed things up and it was no wonder that the Premier League came in to being. Just look at VAR. Since then they have sat back and let the top clubs in the Premier League take a bigger and bigger share of the cake. Can the government make a bigger mess than it is now? You say its a mess now, but the games never been as popular. Think attendances now are larger than they were in those post war years where the game boomed. Theyre on a different planet all together than the decade before the PL began! Stadiums are on a different level than they were too all the way down the pyramid. The facilities, the youth systems, the community work clubs do. Yes a handful of clubs dominate because they have the most money but that was no different pre 1992. The big city clubs with the big fanbases tended to win everything... with the odd exception like Cloughs Forest... but we had leicester win it from nowhere a few years ago. I dont think the games in a mess at all.. far from it.. its not perfect for everyone, but its never been as healthy in many ways at the same time. Compare it to the 1980s.. tiny crowds in crumbling stadiums,, hooliganism all over the place and football ruined by endless offside traps... thats when football was in a mess. But I think it does need protecting from all the financial vultures who are queueing up to tap into that gravy train and will do that as much as they can without giving the game, its history, traditions and especially not the fans a second thought. We have a lot more people living in England now that we did back then. From 1946 it has risen from 48M to 67M in 2020. |
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Feb 23, 2023 17:40:21 GMT 1
It's not just about English football - the PL is killing the game at a European level, if not globally. Put it this way - the transfer window just gone, Chelsea spent more than every club in The Bundesliga, La Liga, Ligue 1 and Serie A COMBINED. linkThough the money is obscene, they have just given over £300 million to clubs in Ukraine, Portugal, Brazil, France etc that will see them ok for a while. Swings and roundabouts really. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 23, 2023 17:53:49 GMT 1
The game would have evolved without the money Slapps. When you say stadiums are better, can you tell me how many stadia have been upgraded, changed etc., as a consequence of the TV money? Down in L1 and below I don’t see much in the way of ground improvements as a result of this. Sabs, have to disagree on the ESL, I think it’ll happen. The direction of travel for the last 30yrs has been that the footballing organisations are controlled more and more by their sponsors. If those people want the ESL to happen, then it’ll just follow the same pattern. It’s the inclusion of English clubs that’s the sticking point here, but how many of those owners will stand by when a few £bn is being waved in front of their noses. It’ll be similar to the LIV/PGA shenanigans that’s happening in golf. The game didnt have any money pre PL though. They could barely pay the players, even the wages they were getting back then, so where would the money come from to develop stands and training complexes? In the 1980s stadiums were pretty much the same as they'd been 70 or 80 years earlier. I see the argument that too much stays in there PL ( it does generate it though to be fair ) but plenty does filter down the pyramid. I used to go to watch town at places like Doncaster, Chesterfield, Scunthorpe, York, Chester, Barnsley etc and these places were hovels really. Standing in the rain and taking a piss against a wall. If you needed a shit then forget it! There arent many clubs that dont either have new stadiums altogether or effectively a new stadium with new stands on the same site all the way down the divisions. Its all a result of the interest and money the PL has generated one way or another. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 23, 2023 17:55:31 GMT 1
You say its a mess now, but the games never been as popular. Think attendances now are larger than they were in those post war years where the game boomed. Theyre on a different planet all together than the decade before the PL began! Stadiums are on a different level than they were too all the way down the pyramid. The facilities, the youth systems, the community work clubs do. Yes a handful of clubs dominate because they have the most money but that was no different pre 1992. The big city clubs with the big fanbases tended to win everything... with the odd exception like Cloughs Forest... but we had leicester win it from nowhere a few years ago. I dont think the games in a mess at all.. far from it.. its not perfect for everyone, but its never been as healthy in many ways at the same time. Compare it to the 1980s.. tiny crowds in crumbling stadiums,, hooliganism all over the place and football ruined by endless offside traps... thats when football was in a mess. But I think it does need protecting from all the financial vultures who are queueing up to tap into that gravy train and will do that as much as they can without giving the game, its history, traditions and especially not the fans a second thought. We have a lot more people living in England now that we did back then. From 1946 it has risen from 48M to 67M in 2020. Fair point. that might make a difference. Theres also countless other activities people can access to spend their leisure time and money on though. |
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Post by runner76 on Feb 23, 2023 17:56:26 GMT 1
It's not just about English football - the PL is killing the game at a European level, if not globally. Put it this way - the transfer window just gone, Chelsea spent more than every club in The Bundesliga, La Liga, Ligue 1 and Serie A COMBINED. link.....and still won't win fuck all....surely that is worse for them than the teams from those leagues who will win things? |
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 23, 2023 17:58:35 GMT 1
Most of the money they spend is going to Spain, Germany, France etc isnt it? Those leagues benefit financially from the PL riches massively as thats where the money tends to end up.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Feb 23, 2023 18:01:03 GMT 1
The game would have evolved without the money Slapps. When you say stadiums are better, can you tell me how many stadia have been upgraded, changed etc., as a consequence of the TV money? Down in L1 and below I don’t see much in the way of ground improvements as a result of this. Sabs, have to disagree on the ESL, I think it’ll happen. The direction of travel for the last 30yrs has been that the footballing organisations are controlled more and more by their sponsors. If those people want the ESL to happen, then it’ll just follow the same pattern. It’s the inclusion of English clubs that’s the sticking point here, but how many of those owners will stand by when a few £bn is being waved in front of their noses. It’ll be similar to the LIV/PGA shenanigans that’s happening in golf. The game didnt have any money pre PL though. They could barely pay the players, even the wages they were getting back then, so where would the money come from to develop stands and training complexes? In the 1980s stadiums were pretty much the same as they'd been 70 or 80 years earlier. I see the argument that too much stays in there PL ( it does generate it though to be fair ) but plenty does filter down the pyramid. I used to go to watch town at places like Doncaster, Chesterfield, Scunthorpe, York, Chester, Barnsley etc and these places were hovels really. Standing in the rain and taking a piss against a wall. If you needed a shit then forget it! There arent many clubs that dont either have new stadiums altogether or effectively a new stadium with new stands on the same site all the way down the divisions. Its all a result of the interest and money the PL has generated one way or another. Has it filtered down the pyramid Slapps? How many clubs entered administration before the PL days? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 18:02:48 GMT 1
It's not just about English football - the PL is killing the game at a European level, if not globally. Put it this way - the transfer window just gone, Chelsea spent more than every club in The Bundesliga, La Liga, Ligue 1 and Serie A COMBINED. link.....and still won't win fuck all....surely that is worse for them than the teams from those leagues who will win things? Oh aye - when they miss out on the Europa Conference League, never mind a "proper" European competition, I'll laugh! (Though I quite like Graham Potter - thought for a while he was a shoe-in for future England manager, less sure now.) |
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Post by harrychrishner on Feb 23, 2023 18:09:35 GMT 1
It's not just about English football - the PL is killing the game at a European level, if not globally. Put it this way - the transfer window just gone, Chelsea spent more than every club in The Bundesliga, La Liga, Ligue 1 and Serie A COMBINED. linkThough the money is obscene, they have just given over £300 million to clubs in Ukraine, Portugal, Brazil, France etc that will see them ok for a while. Swings and roundabouts really. Good point, the redistribution of wealth! Those countries and others also know that the English clubs are also prepared to pay that little bit extra simply because they can i.e. outbidding others like at an auction. It wil be interesting to see what they pay for Jude Bellingham when he finally makes his move and who will be paying the transfer fee. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 23, 2023 18:57:06 GMT 1
The game didnt have any money pre PL though. They could barely pay the players, even the wages they were getting back then, so where would the money come from to develop stands and training complexes? In the 1980s stadiums were pretty much the same as they'd been 70 or 80 years earlier. I see the argument that too much stays in there PL ( it does generate it though to be fair ) but plenty does filter down the pyramid. I used to go to watch town at places like Doncaster, Chesterfield, Scunthorpe, York, Chester, Barnsley etc and these places were hovels really. Standing in the rain and taking a piss against a wall. If you needed a shit then forget it! There arent many clubs that dont either have new stadiums altogether or effectively a new stadium with new stands on the same site all the way down the divisions. Its all a result of the interest and money the PL has generated one way or another. Has it filtered down the pyramid Slapps? How many clubs entered administration before the PL days? I couldn't tell you to be honest. I remember the padlocks being put up at clubs like hull and Middlesbrough. Do clubs go into admin because of a lack of money or because theyre just spending even more than they have all the time.. ie, bad management? Clubs in our division pay some players extortionate amounts of money.. £20k a week .. more maybe...these are second rate players nowhere near the top of the game. So theres no shortage of money sloshing about. The average wage of league 1 player is £4700 apparently. Senior players in League 2 are earning £3500 a week. These are CEO salaries for 3rd and 4th rate players! The money must filter down if theyre all playing in new stadiums or have mainly new stands and are paying their players these kinds of salaries. Also we even have many full time professional clubs in the 6th tier of the pyramid..most of them are I think,,, so even at that level the game must be financially healthy to be able to do that. It doesnt all come from the PL and Tv money and many have private benefactors and investors but I think the PL ( and sky ) has made football so immensely popular again the game at all levels is seen as an attractive thing to invest in. |
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Post by ruggedivy on Feb 23, 2023 19:07:26 GMT 1
I do love the idea that some people think this government will be a fair and honest independent intermediary in football governance.
They just want to get in on all the money sloshing about the sport!
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Feb 23, 2023 21:23:55 GMT 1
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 24, 2023 1:15:38 GMT 1
I do love the idea that some people think this government will be a fair and honest independent intermediary in football governance. They just want to get in on all the money sloshing about the sport! They already do through the enormous amount of tax revenue generated by football. Other than the wages of the people given the cushy job of sitting on this new governing body, I cant see how any extra money will be going the governments way as a result of this. Whats more likely ( the point Sullivan was making ) is that what they do will damage the product.. so it'll make less money... and generate less tax revenue for the government ) |
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Feb 24, 2023 9:51:05 GMT 1
Pretty evident with the comments on this thread, that people accept this is now an industry generating a product and revenue.
As opposed to a sport, generating competition.
None of the PL clubs want this, principally because they fear more money flowing down, and not into their pockets.
Maybe if they’d not created a model over the life of the PL, where they call the shots for the rest of the pyramid, then this move might not have happened?
For the record, I’m not particularly keen on this, it’s only because there’s so much money involved that the Govt have acted. Why isn’t there a regulator for Cricket or Rugby Union?
Slapps, I think there may be some concern with the Govt, that any clubs deciding to flit and join a ESL would affect their tax receipts, especially if those clubs did something so extreme and incorporated their businesses within the EU, if that’s even possible?
They’re certainly not doing it for the good of the supporters…
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Post by DeepSpace on Feb 24, 2023 10:02:23 GMT 1
"This needs to be a very precise regulatory tool and not a sledgehammer, otherwise it might take football sidewards, or even backwards, rather than forwards."
Taking football backwards? Mud-soaked pitches, crunching tackles getting a funny look from the ref instead of a red card...in fact what's all that card nonsense anyway? Just get the old black book out. Terraces, proper floodlights you could see miles away, shoving your way through a crowd to get a scalding hot vaguely Bovril-flavoured drink & a soggy pie. One substitute & proper goal nets. What an absolute genius idea. I'm in.
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Post by mosher on Feb 24, 2023 10:15:56 GMT 1
The game didnt have any money pre PL though. They could barely pay the players, even the wages they were getting back then, so where would the money come from to develop stands and training complexes? In the 1980s stadiums were pretty much the same as they'd been 70 or 80 years earlier. I see the argument that too much stays in there PL ( it does generate it though to be fair ) but plenty does filter down the pyramid. I used to go to watch town at places like Doncaster, Chesterfield, Scunthorpe, York, Chester, Barnsley etc and these places were hovels really. Standing in the rain and taking a piss against a wall. If you needed a shit then forget it! There arent many clubs that dont either have new stadiums altogether or effectively a new stadium with new stands on the same site all the way down the divisions. Its all a result of the interest and money the PL has generated one way or another. Has it filtered down the pyramid Slapps? How many clubs entered administration before the PL days? A hell of a lot actually. Not just admin,completely bust: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administration_(British_football)Edit: actually after reading it properly (I googled PRE-1992 admin) there's plenty more AFTER the PL, but as Slapps says, that could just be because more clubs "chased the dream" than previously? Edit2: Another caveat though is the collapse of ITV Digital at the turn of the century, which caused a few admins, which will obviously skew the data somewhat. Edit3: Also, for some reason I thought the likes of Maidstone were when I was a nipper, not in the 90's. I'm sure I remember more clubs going to the wall than that list shows, usually (iirc) after being relegated to the Conference. AND Town's admin isn't listed there either? |
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duncfost01
David Wagner Terrier
[M0:1]
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Post by duncfost01 on Feb 24, 2023 10:27:51 GMT 1
I do love the idea that some people think this government will be a fair and honest independent intermediary in football governance. They just want to get in on all the money sloshing about the sport! Totally. They see football as another cash cow. This government should be gone nevermind anywhere near football. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 24, 2023 10:37:13 GMT 1
Pretty evident with the comments on this thread, that people accept this is now an industry generating a product and revenue. As opposed to a sport, generating competition. None of the PL clubs want this, principally because they fear more money flowing down, and not into their pockets. Maybe if they’d not created a model over the life of the PL, where they call the shots for the rest of the pyramid, then this move might not have happened? For the record, I’m not particularly keen on this, it’s only because there’s so much money involved that the Govt have acted. Why isn’t there a regulator for Cricket or Rugby Union? Slapps, I think there may be some concern with the Govt, that any clubs deciding to flit and join a ESL would affect their tax receipts, especially if those clubs did something so extreme and incorporated their businesses within the EU, if that’s even possible? They’re certainly not doing it for the good of the supporters…What makes you say that, other than the default belief that anything a tory government does is 'evil' in some way?  Supporters have been calling for this kind of protection for years..they were demanding it after the ESL farce a couple of years ago.. no one else has ( ie the clubs ) .. so the government sets it up but isnt doing it for the supporters?? If the government was only interested in their own coffers then they'd not do this. Its much more likely to negatively effect the tax income than increase it. They'd allow the clubs owners to take the clubs in whatever money spinning direction they want and sit back to coin in the extra tax income. This is doing the opposite of that. I think they realise that football is such an integral and enormous part of our culture now,, particularly on a local level around each club,, that it needs shielding from the opportunist sharks that the kind of money involved will inevitably attract from all over the globe. Its a measure thats long over due. Thats what its about. Stopping some US investment group or Arab nation state taking our clubs into things that the fans and the English game doesnt want them to. The ESL was the obvious example...a backlash from the supporters stopped it but only because the owners caved in to that. There was no legal method of stopping it... hopefully now there will be. |
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Feb 24, 2023 10:46:36 GMT 1
I know this is taking it political Slapps, but THIS Govt is the one I'd be concerned about some sort of vested interests & not giving a shiny shite about the supporters. It wasn't that long ago they were branding us all hooligans because of a few end of season pitch invasions, spoilt by a small handful of idiots.
It's also fairly obvious that this will take a long time to establish, because of all the shuffling and delay tactics that will be played out. I wouldn't expect a regulator to be in place for at least 2-3 years at best.
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 24, 2023 11:13:57 GMT 1
Think they've said it'll be about 18 months at the earliest. Your lot will be in by then anyway, so you dont need to worry. Everything will be milk and honey and it'll be me making stuff up about what they said or why theyre doing things. |
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