|
|
Post by WackyWorld on Jul 28, 2023 9:49:00 GMT 1
Linked with Callum Marshall from West Ham. Seems to be a young prolific striker
|
|
|
|
Post by Million Dollar Babies on Jul 28, 2023 9:50:21 GMT 1
Linked with Callum Marshall from West Ham. Seems to be a young prolific striker Like Mipo Odubeko? |
|
|
|
Post by royrace on Jul 28, 2023 10:08:49 GMT 1
With respect ern....how do you know? Were brown, palmer, colwill, mooy not good enough or on too much money? I get the counter argument re kessler-hayden, tino, mbete etc but these loans werent just about money - its getting the right guys in. Most clubs at this level have a big problem - theyre paying too much for and to bang average footballers.......and for what?! To go into a prem league where the problem and numbers are telephone numbers by comparison and where most of the current players cant cope. Its a conundrum but not fixed just by spending money - ask stoke, leeds, boro, wed et al. Warnock has said himself that he doesn't like signing superstars. He wouldn't blow huge wages on one player as it would unsettle the dressing room. For the modest wages we look to be offering that means we are either hoping for a decent loan or an average freebie. Anyone half decent at scoring goals would likely command wages we can't afford. I'm just hoping he gets the current players playing out of their skin like before and that we don't get any serious injuries. I'd have been happy with players like Hoilett and Bacuna, not superstars just tried and tested championship performers. Just hoping we manage to sign some quality not champ players that have been deemed not good enough for the last few seasons by teams we are competing with. I think we're all pretty confident we can avoid a relegation scrap with Warnock in charge but what about next season? Good luck attracting a quality coach with the budget we've seen so far. |
|
|
|
Post by royrace on Jul 28, 2023 10:12:38 GMT 1
I doubt it. Who would buy Bournemouth for example? There's no business model there, it's just a complete money pit. As soon as you stop pumping in money they become a Wigan, probably worse, so there's no value except as a vanity project. What were town worth as a PL club before? Not a lot more than the debt they were carrying id imagine. The guy who sold Bournemouth last year ( Maxim Denim ) will have made a lot of money I would have thought after owning it for a decade or so.In the championship, Towns value is like you say not a lot..you are basically just buying ongoing losses , what assets we have and a league position. In the PL though, youre buying a club with a guaranteed income in excess of £100m a year etc etc etc. Different kettle of fish all round IMO. Radrizzani bought Leeds outright for £45m in 2017. He'd already sold 45% of it by the time he recently sold what he had left when the club was valued in that sale at £170m.Hes probably tripped his initial £45m overall and would have been much more had they not just been relegated. I wonder what they spent though? In these crazy times all an income of a £100M per year means is that you have to spend over £100M PA on the playing staff! Bit like being offered a 5 year old Ferrari for £10k but the insurance and road tax is £30k PA and you're not allowed to SORN it. |
|
|
|
Post by Big Ern on Jul 28, 2023 10:12:40 GMT 1
Warnock has said himself that he doesn't like signing superstars. He wouldn't blow huge wages on one player as it would unsettle the dressing room. For the modest wages we look to be offering that means we are either hoping for a decent loan or an average freebie. Anyone half decent at scoring goals would likely command wages we can't afford. I'm just hoping he gets the current players playing out of their skin like before and that we don't get any serious injuries. I'd have been happy with players like Hoilett and Bacuna, not superstars just tried and tested championship performers. Just hoping we manage to sign some quality not champ players that have been deemed not good enough for the last few seasons by teams we are competing with. I think we're all pretty confident we can avoid a relegation scrap with Warnock in charge but what about next season? Good luck attracting a quality coach with the budget we've seen so far. It appears we are restricted by FFP this season but hopefully not as much next season. |
|
|
|
Post by royrace on Jul 28, 2023 10:17:42 GMT 1
I'd have been happy with players like Hoilett and Bacuna, not superstars just tried and tested championship performers. Just hoping we manage to sign some quality not champ players that have been deemed not good enough for the last few seasons by teams we are competing with. I think we're all pretty confident we can avoid a relegation scrap with Warnock in charge but what about next season? Good luck attracting a quality coach with the budget we've seen so far. It appears we are restricted by FFP this season but hopefully not as much next season. Ive no idea, the FFP stuff makes no real sense to me, does it mean next year we'll be able to spend as much on the squad as we spent last year when we were very nearly relegated? Or will it be more? or less? What doesnt add up to me is that we are apparently skint because of recent excesses. Personally I dont remember any crazy spending these last few years in fact quite the opposite! We also raked in a fortune on fees. So how does that suddenly improve? |
|
|
|
Post by overtonterrierspirit on Jul 28, 2023 10:19:56 GMT 1
As we are rigidly sticking to the rules of FFP I hope the EFL are monitoring the clubs who aren’t.
|
|
|
|
Post by overtonterrierspirit on Jul 28, 2023 10:22:03 GMT 1
It appears we are restricted by FFP this season but hopefully not as much next season. Ive no idea, the FFP stuff makes no real sense to me, does it mean next year we'll be able to spend as much on the squad as we spent last year when we were very nearly relegated? Or will it be more? or less? What doesnt add up to me is that we are apparently skint because of recent excesses. Personally I dont remember any crazy spending these last few years in fact quite the opposite! We also raked in a fortune on fees. So how does that suddenly improve? Confusing. Have to say, I miss the days when all you needed to think about was the football. Spend more time reading about financial issues nowadays- it’s taking the edge off enjoying the game for me. |
|
|
|
Post by mosher on Jul 28, 2023 10:29:03 GMT 1
Ive no idea, the FFP stuff makes no real sense to me, does it mean next year we'll be able to spend as much on the squad as we spent last year when we were very nearly relegated? Or will it be more? or less? What doesnt add up to me is that we are apparently skint because of recent excesses. Personally I dont remember any crazy spending these last few years in fact quite the opposite! We also raked in a fortune on fees. So how does that suddenly improve? Confusing. Have to say, I miss the days when all you needed to think about was the football. Spend more time reading about financial issues nowadays- it’s taking the edge off enjoying the game for me. Not to mention having to read numerous posts about Town being skint and that situation being intolerable. Anyone would think we've never been in the financial shit before. Being skint is the norm for Town, except for outlier seasons (PL seasons, Rubbery at first, DH in League One) we've always shopped in the bargain basement. Wasn't that part of the reason Shanks left for the bindippers? Not exactly a new thing, just the t'interweb has brought everything to people's consciousness. |
|
|
|
Post by Captainslapper on Jul 28, 2023 10:29:16 GMT 1
It appears we are restricted by FFP this season but hopefully not as much next season. Ive no idea, the FFP stuff makes no real sense to me, does it mean next year we'll be able to spend as much on the squad as we spent last year when we were very nearly relegated? Or will it be more? or less? What doesnt add up to me is that we are apparently skint because of recent excesses. Personally I dont remember any crazy spending these last few years in fact quite the opposite! We also raked in a fortune on fees. So how does that suddenly improve? Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? |
|
|
|
Post by Up the Duff. on Jul 28, 2023 10:38:38 GMT 1
Ive no idea, the FFP stuff makes no real sense to me, does it mean next year we'll be able to spend as much on the squad as we spent last year when we were very nearly relegated? Or will it be more? or less? What doesnt add up to me is that we are apparently skint because of recent excesses. Personally I dont remember any crazy spending these last few years in fact quite the opposite! We also raked in a fortune on fees. So how does that suddenly improve? Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? Exactly, Bristol City, Millwall, QPR, Boro, Birmingham immediately spring to mind due to transfer fees and wages. |
|
|
|
Post by Convictatthemac on Jul 28, 2023 10:39:18 GMT 1
Any in's or outs tomorrow? The last 9 Aussie batsmen.. 🤞 🍻 Much like Town’s transfer business, you are going to be disappointed 😉 |
|
|
|
Post by overtonterrierspirit on Jul 28, 2023 10:42:25 GMT 1
Ive no idea, the FFP stuff makes no real sense to me, does it mean next year we'll be able to spend as much on the squad as we spent last year when we were very nearly relegated? Or will it be more? or less? What doesnt add up to me is that we are apparently skint because of recent excesses. Personally I dont remember any crazy spending these last few years in fact quite the opposite! We also raked in a fortune on fees. So how does that suddenly improve? Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? The answer appears to be that our turnover is pitifully low compared to other teams in the league ( based on reading other posts ) Cardiff being a big City maybe I can understand, but others ( like Luton last season) are hard to understand. |
|
|
|
Post by runner76 on Jul 28, 2023 10:47:02 GMT 1
Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? The answer appears to be that our turnover is pitifully low compared to other teams in the league ( based on reading other posts ) Cardiff being a big City maybe I can understand, but others ( like Luton last season) are hard to understand. FFP might be a factor but is not the most important thing. The season we got the PL we had a pitifully cheap squad compared to the big spenders and very few 'name' players. We had a stunning manager, canny recruitment and everything just came together....money gets you so far....look at Chelsea... |
|
|
|
Post by overtonterrierspirit on Jul 28, 2023 10:52:09 GMT 1
The answer appears to be that our turnover is pitifully low compared to other teams in the league ( based on reading other posts ) Cardiff being a big City maybe I can understand, but others ( like Luton last season) are hard to understand. FFP might be a factor but is not the most important thing. The season we got the PL we had a pitifully cheap squad compared to the big spenders and very few 'name' players. We had a stunning manager, canny recruitment and everything just came together....money gets you so far....look at Chelsea... Now that I do understand and you are right of course. Hopefully after our first few games we can just concentrate on football. |
|
|
|
Post by Captainslapper on Jul 28, 2023 11:07:35 GMT 1
Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? The answer appears to be that our turnover is pitifully low compared to other teams in the league ( based on reading other posts ) Cardiff being a big City maybe I can understand, but others ( like Luton last season) are hard to understand. Well were a middling club in terms of gate figures, but in terms of gate income, Id imagine we're one of the smallest. Unfortunately the only way thats going to change is by ramping up the price of SCs. |
|
|
|
Post by BLUE&WHITE on Jul 28, 2023 11:10:28 GMT 1
Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? Exactly, Bristol City, Millwall, QPR, Boro, Birmingham immediately spring to mind due to transfer fees and wages. There's always ways around it. The usual one is to get sponsorship money in to offset the books. Owners can also put money in etc |
|
|
|
Post by royrace on Jul 28, 2023 11:13:30 GMT 1
Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? The answer appears to be that our turnover is pitifully low compared to other teams in the league ( based on reading other posts ) Cardiff being a big City maybe I can understand, but others ( like Luton last season) are hard to understand. Turnover would go some way to explain it but as you point out I find it hard to believe Luton and Millwalls is higher. Cardiff and Brum don't get big crowds as far as I'm aware, does it make a big difference if they sell a few more shirts and season tickets anyway? Not as much as selling players for millions every season that's for sure and 100k or so for every sky game. You wouldn't think traditional commercial revenue would make that much difference, maybe for Sunderland with 40k die hard fans perhaps. |
|
|
|
Post by kennyk2 on Jul 28, 2023 11:17:56 GMT 1
Some of the people on this forum desperate for signings have the same attitude as my wife when buying dresses.
She's got loads of dresses, but then another one arrives in the mail from Toast or Boden or suchlike. I remind her that she has a wardrobe full of very nice clothes... they do the job and they look good on her. But... and here's the crux, the acquisition is a NEW dress, so it makes her feel better even if she doesn't really need it.
|
|
|
|
Post by pilks123 on Jul 28, 2023 11:35:37 GMT 1
As we are rigidly sticking to the rules of FFP I hope the EFL are monitoring the clubs who aren’t. Problem is, i'm not convinced they are. I feel like they go after targets that match their agenda. Few examples based off their 2022 accounts: Boro - lost 15.3m in 2022, lost 24.9m in 2021, -131m in Shareholder deficit Bristol C - lost 26.7m in 2022, lost 34.8m in 2021, -3.7m in Shareholder deficit Cardiff - lost 30.4m in 2022, lost 11.8m in 2021, -172m in Shareholder deficit Swansea - lost 12.5m in 2022, lost 4.1m in 2021, -4m in Shareholder deficit Millwall - lost 11.8m in 2022, lost 12.9m in 2021, -116m in Shareholder deficit By comparison Town were Town - lost 3.6m in 2022, profit of 2.7m in 2021, -20m shareholder deficit (mostly money owed to deano) I'm no accountant but I can't for the life of me understand how the likes of Bristol, Boro or Cardiff are not in serious trouble with FFP right now. This FFP excuse for town not investing in their playing squad is getting tiring when it doesn't seem to be a factor for every other club in the division and their own strengthening of the teams. Guess the debate is, what's more damaging? taking on more losses by overspending yet improving (hopefully) playing staff, or getting relegated with the same team and losing more on revenue. I have confidence Neil can keep us up this year but if this "cutting our cloth" is our long term strategy I worry for when Neil decides to call it a day. |
|
wildhogg
Darren Bullock Terrier
Posts: 898
|
Post by wildhogg on Jul 28, 2023 11:37:59 GMT 1
If we're looking at experienced free agents only then the pickings are now really, really slim. Out of those still available there's only Connor Wickham who might take my fancy. Seemed to have had an injury free run last season and offers something we don't have, although it'd probably seem a bit desperate to most.
|
|
incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,501
|
Post by incognito on Jul 28, 2023 11:43:42 GMT 1
If we are genuinely subject to EFL-imposed budgetary restrictions it is nothing to do with FFP (in the classic sense, at least).
Our 3 year aggregated profitability and sustainability number is pretty good - well below the £15 million lower loss threshold, never mind the £39 million upper threshold where sanctions may be invoked.
The idea that we might be having a sort of 'holding' season this year in order to move away from historical losses and improve that number for '24/25 doesn't bear any real scrutiny. We made a £2.75 million profit in 2021 - when that eventually drops out of the equation to be replaced by the eight figure loss we stand to make this season it will drag us further into the red from an FFP standpoint (but still a long way from being a problem).
I'm as curious as everyone else as to the nature of these "relatively strict financial protocols" we are supposedly facing this season. If they are externally imposed I can only assume it is a condition of the takeover approval. The only other real alternative is that they are self applied in an effort to minimise this '23/24 loss and give ourselves the best possible (least negative) FFP starting point this time next year when the new regime has its feet properly under the table.
|
|
|
|
Post by hoggy1975 on Jul 28, 2023 11:47:38 GMT 1
I imagine we are waiting for the top clubs to release their youngsters on loan and we will pick up a couple. Not seen many move yet but could be wrong
|
|
|
|
Post by pterrier on Jul 28, 2023 11:53:41 GMT 1
Ive no idea, the FFP stuff makes no real sense to me, does it mean next year we'll be able to spend as much on the squad as we spent last year when we were very nearly relegated? Or will it be more? or less? What doesnt add up to me is that we are apparently skint because of recent excesses. Personally I dont remember any crazy spending these last few years in fact quite the opposite! We also raked in a fortune on fees. So how does that suddenly improve? Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? Agreed, we are consistently amongst the lowest spenders in the division and regularly sell our best players for good money. Maybe something behind the scenes has gone on over the past few seasons which hasn’t been made public |
|
|
|
Post by pterrier on Jul 28, 2023 11:59:28 GMT 1
Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? Agreed, we are consistently amongst the lowest spenders in the division and regularly sell our best players for good money. Maybe something behind the scenes has gone on over the past few seasons which hasn’t been made public or maybe the new chairman just doesn’t have much money |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2023 12:02:45 GMT 1
I doubt it. Who would buy Bournemouth for example? There's no business model there, it's just a complete money pit. As soon as you stop pumping in money they become a Wigan, probably worse, so there's no value except as a vanity project. What were town worth as a PL club before? Not a lot more than the debt they were carrying id imagine. The guy who sold Bournemouth last year ( Maxim Denim ) will have made a lot of money I would have thought after owning it for a decade or so. In the championship, Towns value is like you say not a lot..you are basically just buying ongoing losses , what assets we have and a league position. In the PL though, youre buying a club with a guaranteed income in excess of £100m a year etc etc etc. Different kettle of fish all round IMO. Radrizzani bought Leeds outright for £45m in 2017. He'd already sold 45% of it by the time he recently sold what he had left when the club was valued in that sale at £170m. Hes probably tripled his initial £45m overall and would have been much more had they not just been relegated. Maxim Denim bought his initial stake in Bournemouth for £850k, then reportedly sold for over £100 Million. This looks like a great investment on the surface. However, in 2022, Bournemouth were £184 Million in debt. One would imagine that a lot of the debt will have been to Denim and written off, or if it wasn't then the debt will have had to be paid off. Would be very surprised if Denim didn't make a significant loss on his investment in Bournemouth. Barely any PL clubs make a profit. The income may be big, but clubs generally have to spend all of that and more to remain on the gravy train. These stats are now a couple of years out of date but demonstrate the point. An owner making a profit on a football club is pretty rare. I can only really think of two circumstances in which it happens: 1. When clubs are run within their means, but are too big to fail sufficiently to see a drop in revenue. For example, Ashley at Newcastle and the Glazer's at Man United. Newcastle's spending was low compared to their income, but as they're one of the biggest clubs in the country they spent most of their time in the Premier League raking the money in. Similarly, Man United now aren't challenging for titles, but they are mainstays in the Premier League and still get to Europe most seasons. 2. When owners get lucky. For example, the only way Nagle makes a profit is if Town managed to sneak up in the first season or two of his ownership without us spending loads, then he sold us straight away on promotion. If we remain in the Championship then he'll lose money. If we go up to the Premier League in a few years time, then he'll also lose money as he will have had to pump money in each year to keep us going in the meantime and our increased value in the PL would be unlikely to cover that. I've been impressed with Nagle so far. I actually think this conservative approach to the transfer market is reassuring, as many new owners come in and spend haphazardly straight away and most of it is wasted money. For example, Birmingham spent a bit one summer when Redknapp was manager and have been hamstrung by it ever since until their recent takeover. Whilst I'd be excited if we were doing a bit more activity in the transfer market, I think it would be tinged with seeds of doubt about how it was all going to work financially. Despite positive signs from Nagle, it does make me a little uneasy that we're no longer owned by a fan. The future of the club is completely in Nagle's hands, because we can't run without him propping us up financially. People may have criticisms of Hoyle and Hodgkinson, but when shit hit the fan, they had an emotional interest in the club surviving. Now we're no longer fan owned, there's always the risk that if shit hits the fan, with no emotional ties, someone makes a business decision to cut their losses and jump ship. That isn't meant to be a criticism of Nagle as he seems a very decent guy, it's more a criticism of football being broken to the point that all clubs of our side have to put their future entirely in the hands of the good will of an individual. |
|
|
|
Post by mosher on Jul 28, 2023 12:18:54 GMT 1
Excellent post @superstevieharper I think (hope?) we're safe in KN's hands, despite him not being a fan. I know it might just have been a PR exercise, but him buying that Town memorabilia/medals and immediately donating them to the club implies (to me anyway) that he's in it for the long haul. Who knows, maybe he's the kind of guy that becomes a massive (not Wendies  ) fan through being involved. EG I bet Hoggy had no feelings for HTAFC whatsoever when he first joined, but now seemingly bleeds blue and white. |
|
|
|
Post by Terrier Ramone on Jul 28, 2023 12:25:05 GMT 1
Some of the people on this forum desperate for signings have the same attitude as my wife when buying dresses. She's got loads of dresses, but then another one arrives in the mail from Toast or Boden or suchlike. I remind her that she has a wardrobe full of very nice clothes... they do the job and they look good on her. But... and here's the crux, the acquisition is a NEW dress, so it makes her feel better even if she doesn't really need it. Has your wife just donated a shed load of her dresses to charity shops? |
|
|
|
Post by Up the Duff. on Jul 28, 2023 12:41:18 GMT 1
Im with you there Roy. Still losing money of course, even after player sales, but comparatively compared to everyone else?? Our £5m a year losses Hoyle was carrying must be pretty low for the championship. If we are restricted by FFP then why isnt everyone else, even moreso? Agreed, we are consistently amongst the lowest spenders in the division and regularly sell our best players for good money. Maybe something behind the scenes has gone on over the past few seasons which hasn’t been made public It would have shown up in the accounts unless we are money laundering |
|
|
|
Post by exeter2terrier on Jul 28, 2023 12:51:32 GMT 1
Lucas João has joined Shanghai Port. There goes that dream.
|
|
) fan through being involved.
