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Post by htfcfcfc on Oct 23, 2023 15:10:05 GMT 1
It doesn't work like that any longer though - we will be having discussions re potential summer acquisitions and departures now probably and DM will want a few months to shape what he has / let some go himself. I might have left it another couple of months myself before making the expected change ............ but if you've identified your man crack on - the only caveat is you have to back him in Jan and again in the summer and only time will tell on that. DM has some work to do to get fans onside - Ipswich apart its been a bit flat to say the least. That said, he isn't working with a squad packed full of talent at this level so its a fine balancing act. I'm sorry, but that is exactly how the club, Nagle and Edwards marketed it. “We’re so pleased Neil has agreed to stay on for another season. I know how determined he is to build on the job he’s done last season, and he offers us great experience and stability on the football side as we prepare for the prospective change of ownership.” They made out that Warnock would stabilise for a season while they sorted everything behind the scenes. However, that isn't what's happened, is it? But what happened behind the scenes in the interim…….
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Post by tvor on Oct 23, 2023 15:19:05 GMT 1
I agree. But results are not the main stick beating Nagle at the moment. Its "you're not called Dean / I don't like americans taking over...why did you get rid of Warnock who has repeatedly said he likes to come in and do a few months here and there, and replace him with a manager who can actually work for a full season and will support enabling the club to move forward professionally rather than being some kind of tedious comedy gig".The same Americans that said they were employing Warnock for one more year because they'd listened to what the fans wanted. And give me the club being treated as "some kind of tedious comedy gig" over what we had under the likes of Corberan, or on the other hand Schofield and Fotheringham because at least it put smiles on faces and made things enjoyable. Things are always more enjoyable when you have charismatic managers (Jackson, Wagner, Warnock) than managers who have the personality of a damp rag (Corberan, Fotheringham, Powell and so on). And beyond all that, Warnock was the best man for the job in keeping teams' heads above water and getting them playing beyond their capabilities. I think people like you are seriously underestimating how much of a good job he did last season as well as getting a tune out of this squad this season. Think that’s a bit unfair on Powell. He came across as likeable and flat cap sales aside you can see parallels with DM on that score. For me the jury is still out on Moore but, as Powell showed, hanging on not to lose, will result in people staying away. Powell didn’t trust his squad which is odd given the faith he put into Ishy Miller but the quality of the players is another parallel with now, at least investment wise. He also had to deal with Butterfield downing tools and leaving at the last minute, just as Robins had to deal with Clayton going. I’m not saying these were their only issues but, so far, Nagle looks like a continuity chairman - buy players cheap, coach them into better players, sell them on for more money, rinse and repeat. If the coach at the time can’t manage that, sack him, hire a ‘promising’ coach/manager from league 1 who will jump at the chance of the step up, explain to the fans that we were lucky to get him, rinse and repeat.
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midlander
David Wagner Terrier
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Post by midlander on Oct 23, 2023 15:19:47 GMT 1
I didn't miss many games home or away when Warnock was in charge.... can you please just remind me in which game we played really good football ?He got some amazing results (and quite a few shockers) but in the main we played pretty poor football and relied on trying to 'nick it' in the last 10 mins. I personally think most town fans were just so pleased that he somehow managed to keep us up, they only see through rose tinted glasses. DM might not be the ultimate answer but lets give the guy a chance. One defeat in 5 games is not a bad start and hopefully his first win will enable him to 'kick on'. UTT Middlesbrough, Watford, Reading, Rotherham are four examples off the top of my head. That first half against Middlesbrough was like a game of attack Vs defence and played almost entirely in our defensive third. We had very little intention of playing football. However, that was how Warnock turned us round tbf. He got us to defend deep, keep it tight and then try and capitalise as the game went on. Once a bit of belief and confidence was in the squad, he released the shackles a little.
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Post by htafcokay on Oct 23, 2023 15:24:10 GMT 1
Middlesbrough, Watford, Reading, Rotherham are four examples off the top of my head. That first half against Middlesbrough was like a game of attack Vs defence and played almost entirely in our defensive third. We had very little intention of playing football. However, that was how Warnock turned us round tbf. He got us to defend deep, keep it tight and then try and capitalise as the game went on. Once a bit of belief and confidence was in the squad, he released the shackles a little. I agree on the first half, but I've never seen anything like the second half. We just seemed to bomb forward every time we had the ball. It was exciting. That's part of the attraction for me, Warnock's football may be "dinosaur football" but at least it was entertaining. It was a complete throwback and completely at odds with the boring football that is now played by the vast majority of teams.
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Post by htafcokay on Oct 23, 2023 15:26:00 GMT 1
The same Americans that said they were employing Warnock for one more year because they'd listened to what the fans wanted. And give me the club being treated as "some kind of tedious comedy gig" over what we had under the likes of Corberan, or on the other hand Schofield and Fotheringham because at least it put smiles on faces and made things enjoyable. Things are always more enjoyable when you have charismatic managers (Jackson, Wagner, Warnock) than managers who have the personality of a damp rag (Corberan, Fotheringham, Powell and so on). And beyond all that, Warnock was the best man for the job in keeping teams' heads above water and getting them playing beyond their capabilities. I think people like you are seriously underestimating how much of a good job he did last season as well as getting a tune out of this squad this season. Think that’s a bit unfair on Powell. He came across as likeable and flat cap sales aside you can see parallels with DM on that score. For me the jury is still out on Moore but, as Powell showed, hanging on not to lose, will result in people staying away. Powell didn’t trust his squad which is odd given the faith he put into Ishy Miller but the quality of the players is another parallel with now, at least investment wise. He also had to deal with Butterfield downing tools and leaving at the last minute, just as Robins had to deal with Clayton going. I’m not saying these were their only issues but, so far, Nagle looks like a continuity chairman - buy players cheap, coach them into better players, sell them on for more money, rinse and repeat. If the coach at the time can’t manage that, sack him, hire a ‘promising’ coach/manager from league 1 who will jump at the chance of the step up, explain to the fans that we were lucky to get him, rinse and repeat. I don't think I've ever been as bored as I was under Powell. Likeable bloke yes, but I don't think he ever really wanted to be here and he treated the job as such. And all the "We can't compete with Derby" stuff sealed his fate for me.
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Post by htafcokay on Oct 23, 2023 15:26:39 GMT 1
I'm sorry, but that is exactly how the club, Nagle and Edwards marketed it. “We’re so pleased Neil has agreed to stay on for another season. I know how determined he is to build on the job he’s done last season, and he offers us great experience and stability on the football side as we prepare for the prospective change of ownership.” They made out that Warnock would stabilise for a season while they sorted everything behind the scenes. However, that isn't what's happened, is it? But what happened behind the scenes in the interim……. They didn't like how he operated despite knowing exactly what they were getting when they appointed him.
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Post by dugnet on Oct 23, 2023 16:01:45 GMT 1
But what happened behind the scenes in the interim……. They didn't like how he operated despite knowing exactly what they were getting when they appointed him. Isn't this all a bit pointless now? The change has been made so we have to judge DM on what he delivers on the pitch. Personally I think Mr Nagle is a percepive guy and will be watching, listening and learning. It's unfair to judge him so quickly as he has to work out how English football operates, and the culture/personalities within it. I give him credit for delegating responsibility and judging those he delegates to. He doesn't strike me as either a fool or someone who's ego is too large. As for those he has delegated to they are under closer scrutiny. Moore has been selected and his performance will largely dictate his, and those who selected him, futures. DM needs to step up. The performance against Ipswich was coherent, structured and well executed. Performances since have been significantly less so. He seems to have some, on the face of it, muddled ideas at the moment. He needs to get back to what has worked and look to maximise that, in my view of course. The decision to move on from NW will loom large until we get similar and consistent results/performances. That is expected but NW has gone so we must judge those in charge now on what they achieve. Harking back to something we can't reverse doesn't really add anything. As I posted before everyone needs time and as frustrating it maybe that's the reality. How much time will depend on what we see on the pitch.
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Post by htafcokay on Oct 23, 2023 16:06:33 GMT 1
They didn't like how he operated despite knowing exactly what they were getting when they appointed him. Isn't this all a bit pointless now? The change has been made so we have to judge DM on what he delivers on the pitch. Personally I think Mr Nagle is a percepive guy and will be watching, listening and learning. It's unfair to judge him so quickly as he has to work out how English football operates, and the culture/personalities within it. I give him credit for delegating responsibility and judging those he delegates to. He doesn't strike me as either a fool or someone who's ego is too large. As for those he has delegated to they are under closer scrutiny. Moore has been selected and his performance will largely dictate his, and those who selected him, futures. DM needs to step up. The performance against Ipswich was coherent, structured and well executed. Performances since have been significantly less so. He seems to have some, on the face of it, muddled ideas at the moment. He needs to get back to what has worked and look to maximise that, in my view of course. The decision to move on from NW will loom large until we get similar and consistent results/performances. That is expected but NW has gone so we must judge those in charge now on what they achieve. Harking back to something we can't reverse doesn't really add anything. As I posted before everyone needs time and as frustrating it maybe that's the reality. How much time will depend on what we see on the pitch. If people stop bringing Warnock up, then maybe we can move on!!
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Post by mosher on Oct 23, 2023 16:15:16 GMT 1
Isn't this all a bit pointless now? The change has been made so we have to judge DM on what he delivers on the pitch. Personally I think Mr Nagle is a percepive guy and will be watching, listening and learning. It's unfair to judge him so quickly as he has to work out how English football operates, and the culture/personalities within it. I give him credit for delegating responsibility and judging those he delegates to. He doesn't strike me as either a fool or someone who's ego is too large. As for those he has delegated to they are under closer scrutiny. Moore has been selected and his performance will largely dictate his, and those who selected him, futures. DM needs to step up. The performance against Ipswich was coherent, structured and well executed. Performances since have been significantly less so. He seems to have some, on the face of it, muddled ideas at the moment. He needs to get back to what has worked and look to maximise that, in my view of course. The decision to move on from NW will loom large until we get similar and consistent results/performances. That is expected but NW has gone so we must judge those in charge now on what they achieve. Harking back to something we can't reverse doesn't really add anything. As I posted before everyone needs time and as frustrating it maybe that's the reality. How much time will depend on what we see on the pitch. If people stop bringing Warnock up, then maybe we can move on!! No doubt your stalkers will say it's you who keeps bringing him up, despite you generally only responding to others' posts about him
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Post by htafcokay on Oct 23, 2023 16:18:57 GMT 1
If people stop bringing Warnock up, then maybe we can move on!! No doubt your stalkers will say it's you who keeps bringing him up, despite you generally only responding to others' posts about him Got it in one!
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Post by portugalterrier on Oct 23, 2023 16:27:12 GMT 1
But what happened behind the scenes in the interim……. They didn't like how he operated despite knowing exactly what they were getting when they appointed him. Apparently they didn’t know exactly what they were getting when they appointed him and what they did get resulted in Moore being appointed.
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Post by htafcokay on Oct 23, 2023 16:28:54 GMT 1
They didn't like how he operated despite knowing exactly what they were getting when they appointed him. Apparently they didn’t know exactly what they were getting when they appointed him and what they did get resulted in Moore being appointed. Well that's their stupid fault then.
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Post by portugalterrier on Oct 23, 2023 16:33:56 GMT 1
Apparently they didn’t know exactly what they were getting when they appointed him and what they did get resulted in Moore being appointed. Well that's their stupid fault then. And they rectified that fault pretty quickly .Americans don’t dick about.
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Post by Porrohman on Oct 23, 2023 16:53:18 GMT 1
I'm sorry, but that is exactly how the club, Nagle and Edwards marketed it. “We’re so pleased Neil has agreed to stay on for another season. I know how determined he is to build on the job he’s done last season, and he offers us great experience and stability on the football side as we prepare for the prospective change of ownership.” They made out that Warnock would stabilise for a season while they sorted everything behind the scenes. However, that isn't what's happened, is it? But what happened behind the scenes in the interim……. Ah, that old chestnut. "We know what he did but we're not telling" 🙄
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Post by waggers on Oct 23, 2023 16:58:47 GMT 1
But what happened behind the scenes in the interim……. Ah, that old chestnut. "We know what he did but we're not telling" 🙄 The phantom 'in the know brigade'....they always know what really goes on but their lips are sealed.
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Post by portugalterrier on Oct 23, 2023 17:01:19 GMT 1
Ah, that old chestnut. "We know what he did but we're not telling" 🙄 The phantom 'in the know brigade'....they always know what really goes on but their lips are sealed. The details might be missing but the conclusion isn’t .
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ldotm
David Wagner Terrier
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Post by ldotm on Oct 23, 2023 17:20:55 GMT 1
He leaves the club in a stable position, with a new manager getting a full pre-season to get his ideas across. You could say that or you could say that we waste 7 months with a manager who is not the longer term solution. Working with players in away that his successor does not want to work! Buying players in the January that the new man doesn't want!? And that's in no way a criticism of NW by the way! It is pretty much acknowledged that he has a unique way of managing which would be very difficult/ near impossible to replicate! Add to that missing out on players that won’t sign for Town, knowing the manager will leave end of season and that puts their career in the unknown. Also, it’s been documented PL clubs were reluctant to send talent to Town under Warnock. I was all for Warnock staying on and was enjoying it, but understand the decision to move when we did.
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Post by Porrohman on Oct 23, 2023 17:54:40 GMT 1
They didn't like how he operated despite knowing exactly what they were getting when they appointed him. Apparently they didn’t know exactly what they were getting when they appointed him and what they did get resulted in Moore being appointed. So they didn't like what they had and changed to a much, much poorer option 🙄
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Post by portugalterrier on Oct 23, 2023 18:28:59 GMT 1
Apparently they didn’t know exactly what they were getting when they appointed him and what they did get resulted in Moore being appointed. So they didn't like what they had and changed to a much, much poorer option 🙄 That’s your opinion, the management and owner made the decision , the owner picks up the tab , they had all the facts to hand regarding this situation and obviously decided that they had to make a change. It’s far too early to assess if the outcome of their decision will be a success, Warnock was only here for the season anyway, he did very well last season but we were playing pragmatic football as we are now , I’m sure we will see several incomings in January , some of which didn’t materialise for varying reasons in the past window. I personally think Moore is a good coach and hope it all works out.
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Post by dugnet on Oct 23, 2023 18:51:58 GMT 1
So they didn't like what they had and changed to a much, much poorer option 🙄 That’s your opinion, the management and owner made the decision , the owner picks up the tab , they had all the facts to hand regarding this situation and obviously decided that they had to make a change. It’s far too early to assess if the outcome of their decision will be a success, Warnock was only here for the season anyway, he did very well last season but we were playing pragmatic football as we are now , I’m sure we will see several incomings in January , some of which didn’t materialise for varying reasons in the past window. I personally think Moore is a good coach and hope it all works out. I don't think we have seen enough to be confident about DM but we haven't seen enough to be alarmed (albeit his tactical tinkering in the past 3 games has got me scratching my head). I would be slightly worried that there seems to be a narrative developing that seems to expect investment in January. I may have missed it, and I might, but where has it been explicitly stated? It may have been eluded to loosely but I haven't heard any commitment. I think we do need strengthening, and with experienced players, but I'm not holding my breath for any major additions. Time will tell, but we have to keep judgement fair and realistic. That of course works both ways, if things don't work out Mr Nagle and team have to stand up and own their decision.
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Post by waggers on Oct 23, 2023 20:17:47 GMT 1
You could say that or you could say that we waste 7 months with a manager who is not the longer term solution. Working with players in away that his successor does not want to work! Buying players in the January that the new man doesn't want!? And that's in no way a criticism of NW by the way! It is pretty much acknowledged that he has a unique way of managing which would be very difficult/ near impossible to replicate! Add to that missing out on players that won’t sign for Town, knowing the manager will leave end of season and that puts their career in the unknown. Also, it’s been documented PL clubs were reluctant to send talent to Town under Warnock. I was all for Warnock staying on and was enjoying it, but understand the decision to move when we did. I can understand moving early to put a long-term successor in place if a proven Championship manager became available. I would have preferred to wait for that manager whilst knowing we would be safe and avoid relegation. I understand we needed a plan post Warnock.
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ldotm
David Wagner Terrier
Posts: 2,879
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Post by ldotm on Oct 23, 2023 20:49:31 GMT 1
Add to that missing out on players that won’t sign for Town, knowing the manager will leave end of season and that puts their career in the unknown. Also, it’s been documented PL clubs were reluctant to send talent to Town under Warnock. I was all for Warnock staying on and was enjoying it, but understand the decision to move when we did. I can understand moving early to put a long-term successor in place if a proven Championship manager became available. I would have preferred to wait for that manager whilst knowing we would be safe and avoid relegation. I understand we needed a plan post Warnock. And how many “proven” Championship managers are there? The reality is most clubs in this league are not “successful” and managers that have had that success don’t emulate it everywhere they go E.g Wagner. Moore has generally a good record, his win rate at all clubs before Town was circa 48%. Winning 1 in 2 is decent compared to most managers.
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Post by waggers on Oct 23, 2023 20:59:40 GMT 1
I can understand moving early to put a long-term successor in place if a proven Championship manager became available. I would have preferred to wait for that manager whilst knowing we would be safe and avoid relegation. I understand we needed a plan post Warnock. And how many “proven” Championship managers are there? The reality is most clubs in this league are not “successful” and managers that have had that success don’t emulate it everywhere they go E.g Wagner. Moore has generally a good record, his win rate at all clubs before Town was circa 48%. Winning 1 in 2 is decent compared to most managers. I'm just not convinced mate not a dig at the man I hope he does well. League One last year and Wednesday didn't fancy keeping him comparing him to Wagner isn't really accurate. I'd have thought the money we've slashed off the wage bill would have got us a higher caliber manager to build a club around.
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Post by portugalterrier on Oct 23, 2023 21:15:06 GMT 1
And how many “proven” Championship managers are there? The reality is most clubs in this league are not “successful” and managers that have had that success don’t emulate it everywhere they go E.g Wagner. Moore has generally a good record, his win rate at all clubs before Town was circa 48%. Winning 1 in 2 is decent compared to most managers. I'm just not convinced mate not a dig at the man I hope he does well. League One last year and Wednesday didn't fancy keeping him comparing him to Wagner isn't really accurate. I'd have thought the money we've slashed off the wage bill would have got us a higher caliber manager to build a club around. Could you put a name to “ higher calibre managers” you think we should have appointed ?
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Post by Teddington Ted on Oct 23, 2023 21:25:40 GMT 1
I’m still gutted that Warnock got byte boot. Fuming, in fact.
However, when Town played shite and won under him Ed revelled in it. He was judged solely on points - as a fire fighter with a shite squad we expected nothing more.
DM is suddenly expected to get points on the board AND entertain. It’s a tough ask, especially when the squad he has is still the same as Warnock had. NW found a way but it may not have been sustainable over a season. DM may find a way but he still needs huge help from KN.
I’ve no idea if he’ll be a success or not but feel it impossible to judge him on the squad currently at his disposal.
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Post by Porrohman on Oct 23, 2023 22:03:08 GMT 1
I'm just not convinced mate not a dig at the man I hope he does well. League One last year and Wednesday didn't fancy keeping him comparing him to Wagner isn't really accurate. I'd have thought the money we've slashed off the wage bill would have got us a higher caliber manager to build a club around. Could you put a name to “ higher calibre managers” you think we should have appointed ? Presumably no high calibre managers were interested if Moore was the best we could do.
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Post by portugalterrier on Oct 23, 2023 22:13:06 GMT 1
Could you put a name to “ higher calibre managers” you think we should have appointed ? Presumably no high calibre managers were interested if Moore was the best we could do. Perhaps you could name some “ high calibre managers” we may have signed, Waggers appears to have no idea. I get you are not impressed by Moore, as I have said previously that’s your opinion which you’re entitled to express , he does however seem to be living rent free in your head, and hopefully stuffs your rather negative opinion where the sun doesn’t shine. I notice you did not attend Sat and probably not Tuesday , I’m sure DM and Town are grateful for your committed approach to supporting the team, and hopefully saves other supporters from catching your unbiased negativity.
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Post by sabailand on Oct 23, 2023 22:15:33 GMT 1
And how many “proven” Championship managers are there? The reality is most clubs in this league are not “successful” and managers that have had that success don’t emulate it everywhere they go E.g Wagner. Moore has generally a good record, his win rate at all clubs before Town was circa 48%. Winning 1 in 2 is decent compared to most managers. I'm just not convinced mate not a dig at the man I hope he does well. League One last year and Wednesday didnt fancy keeping him comparing him to Wagner isn't really accurate. I'd have thought the money we've slashed off the wage bill would have got us a higher caliber manager to build a club around. Didnt he leave becasue there wasn't going to be any money made available to strengthen the squad, may have been other things too but i think that was one of the main reasons.
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Post by royrace on Oct 23, 2023 22:57:12 GMT 1
You could say that or you could say that we waste 7 months with a manager who is not the longer term solution. Working with players in away that his successor does not want to work! Buying players in the January that the new man doesn't want!? And that's in no way a criticism of NW by the way! It is pretty much acknowledged that he has a unique way of managing which would be very difficult/ near impossible to replicate! Add to that missing out on players that won’t sign for Town, knowing the manager will leave end of season and that puts their career in the unknown. Also, it’s been documented PL clubs were reluctant to send talent to Town under Warnock. I was all for Warnock staying on and was enjoying it, but understand the decision to move when we did. Yeah because players always know a manager will be there for years when they sign up. Isn't it down to the sporting director to sell the clubs vision and put together a package to tempt the player. Money talks at the end of the day as does the ambition of the club. I think the premier League loans is quite possibly true, they will understandably want to send players to a team that plays a similar style. Didn't do is much good last season though did it. Cartwright can't blame Warnock now, let's see what he produces in January. My guess if FA of note.
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Post by royrace on Oct 23, 2023 23:01:45 GMT 1
I'm just not convinced mate not a dig at the man I hope he does well. League One last year and Wednesday didnt fancy keeping him comparing him to Wagner isn't really accurate. I'd have thought the money we've slashed off the wage bill would have got us a higher caliber manager to build a club around. Didnt he leave becasue there wasn't going to be any money made available to strengthen the squad, may have been other things too but i think that was one of the main reasons. Their owner said he left because he wanted to triple his salary and that of his coaching team. After being a whisker away from chucking away promotion it was a bold move if true. I do hope town aren't paying him triple his wages at Wednesday for three years but it wouldn't surprise me.
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