DuffMan
Iain Dunn Terrier
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Post by DuffMan on Nov 5, 2024 18:37:51 GMT 1
My confusion sorry! That extra "Are they loans? No" info adds a very different context. I've not heard that previously. My post was interpreting your... "... previously stated the money he was putting in was 'investment' and definitely NOT loans.." ...as KN saying he was putting money in as investment, and the ' definitely not loans' bit being your mistakenly added interpretation that putting directors loans in wouldn't be classed as investment so can't be how he's funding ...as opposed to what I now think you actually meant which is "KN stated the money he was putting in was investment and also he stated its not in the form of loans". Given it definitely will be in the form of directors loans (as confirmed by DTS), then the most likely explanation is that whilst the legal mechanism for moving the funds into the clubs operational black-hole is via directors loan, KN in human terms perhaps doesn't see it as a "loan" - ie - something he necessarily expects to get back. Would be nice to hear him iterate that though for sure. I think he's quoted elsewhere as saying that outside the PL, football clubs in England are very investible to Americans, as they are relatively low cost compared to the cost of getting into the MLS, and with that PL gem sparkling away in the background its a risk an opportunity that rich Americans are prepared to take, even though they know it might never come off. And what we know as fans of English football, are that the chances of getting hold of that glittering prize are very remote, so lets hope he falls in love with the club 'for what it is' in the meantime. If I knew how to attach images I would put his quote on here - he does refer to his investment and he also says its not a loan. If someone cleverer than me can put his quote on that would help lol He may not see it as a loan but I don't think he can gift money without the company paying tax on it? "A gift to a company can be taxable if there’s an existing relationship between the parties. For example, if your parents lent money to your company a “loan relationship” exists. If they then waive the loan it counts as a non-trading loan relationship credit which is liable to corporation tax (CT). The same result can occur in other circumstances where a trading relationship exists between the receiving company and the giver." hence the safest most tax efficient way to fund the club is via director loans |
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Post by Sio on Nov 5, 2024 18:47:39 GMT 1
Good of you to join the forum, Kev Bull registered 2012, numpty. Thanks for clearing that up |
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Maynardblue
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Post by Maynardblue on Nov 5, 2024 18:58:28 GMT 1
If I knew how to attach images I would put his quote on here - he does refer to his investment and he also says its not a loan. If someone cleverer than me can put his quote on that would help lol He may not see it as a loan but I don't think he can gift money without the company paying tax on it? "A gift to a company can be taxable if there’s an existing relationship between the parties. For example, if your parents lent money to your company a “loan relationship” exists. If they then waive the loan it counts as a non-trading loan relationship credit which is liable to corporation tax (CT). The same result can occur in other circumstances where a trading relationship exists between the receiving company and the giver." hence the safest most tax efficient way to fund the club is via director loans Some choose to put their money in by buying more shares rather than a gift. |
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Post by Junior & Onuora on Nov 5, 2024 19:04:24 GMT 1
As much as i disliked AB for shirking it, I absolutely don't blame him in hindsight. He saw through the 'all talk no substance' coming from those above and knew that the changes he needed were never going to be made. Admittedly he hasn't got a new job since and who knows where his next work will come from but yeah probably wise not wanting to work for those making decisions at our place. I disliked AB for being the worst manager we employed and for the results dropping through the floor and us getting relegated from a position where we were beginning to look like we would avoid it. The fact that he could not face sticking to sort the mess out does not help is cause either. I suppose that knowing Cartwright was going to pick the players to help him out would not have help a stay decision. Results dropped through the floor? He was shite but still a better win % and points per game record than Moore. I don't blame Moore as, of course, he's going to take a great job he's not qualified for (as would I). But the fact his appointment after sacking Warnock is so consistently overlooked when discussing why we went down is crazy. This is the ultimate fuck up of the Nagle regime (to date). |
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Post by bells ringing :) on Nov 5, 2024 19:04:39 GMT 1
Maybe Kev means a gift as in, when i leave i will ask for what the club is worth , not what i have put in . Therefore the money i have invested is a gift ?
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Post by mosher on Nov 5, 2024 19:26:01 GMT 1
Good of you to join the forum, Kev Bull registered 2012, numpty. Stock response from some posters when somebody sticks up for KN Used to get responses like “welcome to the forum Mrs Hoyle” in similar situations, even some iirc calling people Sorba’s mam for sticking up for him I like childishness normally ( as regular posters will testify 😂) but these examples are just sad imo |
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Post by sabailand on Nov 5, 2024 19:48:30 GMT 1
Maybe your the ones out of touch ? If the chairman wants to engage with fans on twitter that’s his choice he owns the club stop criticising him for it and personally I prefer someone who is open like kev to a person we never see. The jackets and things around the stadium thing I personally like it ,the players coming off the bus to dj some people don’t like change I’m afraid and others are happy to embrace it and exited by it. My advice to kev /dave is keep doing what your doing when we’re sitting pretty in the league come Christmas the few moaners won’t have anything to moan about. A small number on here dont want to progress up the leagues, so why would they support a chairman who wants to? |
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duncfost01
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Post by duncfost01 on Nov 5, 2024 20:05:12 GMT 1
For all the debate - we still have a very average league one side.
Warnock kept us up incredibly, Nagle and Cartwright have taken us backwards.
Fact.
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Post by softboy on Nov 5, 2024 20:31:34 GMT 1
KN hasn't taken us backwards, we would almost certainly have gone down if he never came along. I don't think he is a chancer, investor, put a bit of cash in, if its doesn't work out then he FO, cuts his losses and moves elsewhere. I believe he is a shrewd businessman (obviously) and this includes Huddersfield Town and the local area.
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on Nov 5, 2024 21:13:27 GMT 1
KN hasn't taken us backwards, we would almost certainly have gone down if he never came along. I don't think he is a chancer, investor, put a bit of cash in, if its doesn't work out then he FO, cuts his losses and moves elsewhere. I believe he is a shrewd businessman (obviously) and this includes Huddersfield Town and the local area. We may still have had Warnock while no guarantee would have come with missing out on DM & AB could only have been a better outcome for us. |
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DuffMan
Iain Dunn Terrier
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Post by DuffMan on Nov 5, 2024 21:36:44 GMT 1
He may not see it as a loan but I don't think he can gift money without the company paying tax on it? "A gift to a company can be taxable if there’s an existing relationship between the parties. For example, if your parents lent money to your company a “loan relationship” exists. If they then waive the loan it counts as a non-trading loan relationship credit which is liable to corporation tax (CT). The same result can occur in other circumstances where a trading relationship exists between the receiving company and the giver." hence the safest most tax efficient way to fund the club is via director loans Some choose to put their money in by buying more shares rather than a gift. That would be a daft move unless this bloke really is a philanthropist and wanting to give his money away! They do it via director loans so that if you put the club up for sale the value is whatever the value of the club is plus what it owes the director. They can always turn the loans into shares at any point if he wants to. If you pump shares in it doesn't add value to the company I don't think and it would be like pouring it into a black hole especially the way cartwright is spending it. |
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ldr
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Post by ldr on Nov 5, 2024 22:50:28 GMT 1
Good of you to join the forum, Kev Bull registered 2012, numpty. No need. He’s not a numpty, he’s a cracking poster. |
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Post by Sio on Nov 5, 2024 23:17:33 GMT 1
Bull registered 2012, numpty. No need. He’s not a numpty, he’s a cracking poster. Good of you to join the forum, mum |
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Post by ChelmsfordTerrier on Nov 5, 2024 23:17:48 GMT 1
Good of you to join the forum, Kev Bull registered 2012, numpty. You must be fun at parties 😂 |
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Post by softboy on Nov 5, 2024 23:21:53 GMT 1
We are not where we want to be. But does anybody really think we would be better off (long term) without KN?
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Post by Sio on Nov 5, 2024 23:25:15 GMT 1
We are not where we want to be. But does anybody really think we would be better off (long term) without KN? Depends who the alternative is, doesn't it? Not for a minute on the bandwagon of wanting Kevin gone but let's not make out that other wealthy buyers don't exist. |
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Post by softboy on Nov 6, 2024 0:37:58 GMT 1
So where were they at the time KN took over. I have no memory of any other interested parties at the time
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ambryboy
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Post by ambryboy on Nov 6, 2024 0:54:37 GMT 1
Some choose to put their money in by buying more shares rather than a gift. and wanting to give his money away! They do it via director loans so that if you put the club up for sale the value is whatever the value of the club is plus what it owes the director. They can always turn the loans into shares at any point if he wants to. If you pump shares in it doesn't add value to the company I don't think and it would be like pouring it into a black hole especially the way cartwright is spending it. According to his Twitter/X profile that is exactly what KN purports to be. |
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Post by Sio on Nov 6, 2024 1:05:22 GMT 1
So where were they at the time KN took over. I have no memory of any other interested parties at the time It was actually very well documented on here at the time |
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Post by space hardware on Nov 6, 2024 1:23:37 GMT 1
So where were they at the time KN took over. I have no memory of any other interested parties at the time It was actually very well documented on here at the time The Dutch Investment thread, that this guy posted on a few times. "No memory" 😂 |
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Post by softboy on Nov 6, 2024 7:01:41 GMT 1
Sorry, my mistake.
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Sparrow
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Post by Sparrow on Nov 6, 2024 11:18:54 GMT 1
Just my thoughts, but I think KN probably does consider the money he's putting in as an Investment rather than a loan.
A loan, you're expecting to get your money back, an Investment you hope to get more money back than you've invested, but accept that you might not. The riskier the investment the bigger the potential gain or loss.
I would imagine that, from a financial perspective, he views Huddersfield Town as a very high risk investment.
For him, I would imagine the end game is two pronged. Firstly get the club to the Premier league. Secondly develop the stadium complex/site as well as any other land / retail space nearby that he may be able to get and bring under one umbrella.
It'll take a lot of 'Investment' to get Town to the Premier League AND to fully develop the stadium complex/site into a profitable, commercially viable business.
However, if he were to do that over the next number of years, then he could potentially sell the whole thing to someone else or other group, for a lot more than he's put in.
Thus his investment has been positively realised.
As a High Risk Investment, he will know that it is just as possible for him to loose it all......Let's hope he is and doesn't do a DH and change his mind and want it back.
I used to 'invest' in Penny Shares. Extremely low cost share, that were incredibly high risk. Some of them I lost my entire investment, others I lost a bit / broke even / made a little....I unfortunately, never invested in one that made me the huge return I dreamed.
So whilst for Accounting reasons KNs money is recorded as Directors Loan. I would argue that he does see it as a High Risk Investment.
As I have said previously, if he is indeed a Billionaire or Multi Billionaire, then the money he's putting into this is money he could afford to lose....But I am sure hopes it get's more back.
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Maynardblue
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Post by Maynardblue on Nov 6, 2024 11:42:38 GMT 1
So where were they at the time KN took over. I have no memory of any other interested parties at the time Yep, the former Padre |
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Post by detox on Nov 6, 2024 11:59:27 GMT 1
Just my thoughts, but I think KN probably does consider the money he's putting in as an Investment rather than a loan. A loan, you're expecting to get your money back, an Investment you hope to get more money back than you've invested, but accept that you might not. The riskier the investment the bigger the potential gain or loss. I would imagine that, from a financial perspective, he views Huddersfield Town as a very high risk investment. For him, I would imagine the end game is two pronged. Firstly get the club to the Premier league. Secondly develop the stadium complex/site as well as any other land / retail space nearby that he may be able to get and bring under one umbrella. It'll take a lot of 'Investment' to get Town to the Premier League AND to fully develop the stadium complex/site into a profitable, commercially viable business. However, if he were to do that over the next number of years, then he could potentially sell the whole thing to someone else or other group, for a lot more than he's put in. Thus his investment has been positively realised. As a High Risk Investment, he will know that it is just as possible for him to loose it all......Let's hope he is and doesn't do a DH and change his mind and want it back. I used to 'invest' in Penny Shares. Extremely low cost share, that were incredibly high risk. Some of them I lost my entire investment, others I lost a bit / broke even / made a little....I unfortunately, never invested in one that made me the huge return I dreamed. So whilst for Accounting reasons KNs money is recorded as Directors Loan. I would argue that he does see it as a High Risk Investment. As I have said previously, if he is indeed a Billionaire or Multi Billionaire, then the money he's putting into this is money he could afford to lose....But I am sure hopes it get's more back. Loaning the club money, at zero interest rates...but I recall a previous owner stating 'I don't expect to get any of my investment back'....and while a good chunk was indeed written off let's not think this was a philanthropic act...it was because nobody was going to pay £65m for the club...despite the best efforts in bringing in 'Potless Phil' in a failed attempt to recoup every penny 'invested'. The demise of this club over the past few years dates back to that period.. |
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Sparrow
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Post by Sparrow on Nov 6, 2024 12:35:39 GMT 1
Just my thoughts, but I think KN probably does consider the money he's putting in as an Investment rather than a loan. A loan, you're expecting to get your money back, an Investment you hope to get more money back than you've invested, but accept that you might not. The riskier the investment the bigger the potential gain or loss. I would imagine that, from a financial perspective, he views Huddersfield Town as a very high risk investment. For him, I would imagine the end game is two pronged. Firstly get the club to the Premier league. Secondly develop the stadium complex/site as well as any other land / retail space nearby that he may be able to get and bring under one umbrella. It'll take a lot of 'Investment' to get Town to the Premier League AND to fully develop the stadium complex/site into a profitable, commercially viable business. However, if he were to do that over the next number of years, then he could potentially sell the whole thing to someone else or other group, for a lot more than he's put in. Thus his investment has been positively realised. As a High Risk Investment, he will know that it is just as possible for him to loose it all......Let's hope he is and doesn't do a DH and change his mind and want it back. I used to 'invest' in Penny Shares. Extremely low cost share, that were incredibly high risk. Some of them I lost my entire investment, others I lost a bit / broke even / made a little....I unfortunately, never invested in one that made me the huge return I dreamed. So whilst for Accounting reasons KNs money is recorded as Directors Loan. I would argue that he does see it as a High Risk Investment. As I have said previously, if he is indeed a Billionaire or Multi Billionaire, then the money he's putting into this is money he could afford to lose....But I am sure hopes it get's more back. Loaning the club money, at zero interest rates...but I recall a previous owner stating 'I don't expect to get any of my investment back'....and while a good chunk was indeed written off let's not think this was a philanthropic act...it was because nobody was going to pay £65m for the club...despite the best efforts in bringing in 'Potless Phil' in a failed attempt to recoup every penny 'invested'. The demise of this club over the past few years dates back to that period.. Totally agree. That's why I put the bit about KN knowing that it's possible for him to loose all the money he puts in, let's hope he is (prepared to lose it all) and doesn't do a DH and change his mind and take it all back. |
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Post by detox on Nov 6, 2024 12:55:47 GMT 1
Loaning the club money, at zero interest rates...but I recall a previous owner stating 'I don't expect to get any of my investment back'....and while a good chunk was indeed written off let's not think this was a philanthropic act...it was because nobody was going to pay £65m for the club...despite the best efforts in bringing in 'Potless Phil' in a failed attempt to recoup every penny 'invested'. The demise of this club over the past few years dates back to that period.. Totally agree. That's why I put the bit about KN knowing that it's possible for him to loose all the money he puts in, let's hope he is (prepared to lose it all) and doesn't do a DH and change his mind and take it all back. If and when KN decides enough is enough, it'll be the market price of the asset that determines whether his loans are recouped or not. What KN is doing that DH didn't is broadening the scope and value of the asset beyond just a 'soccer' club. The stadium ownership adds value and his plans to regenerate the entire site to increase revenue streams will certainly increase the value of the asset. KN will have done his sums some time ago and I'm sure come the day some years down the line the 'value' of the assets will more than cover his investments...he's a business man and sees the opportunity. For Town, and us fans, that's probably a good thing in the long term. In defence of DH he was restricted by KSDL and shared ownership which is probably why he invested in Canalside to at least compensate for the inability to expand the asset around the stadium. |
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Post by royrace on Nov 6, 2024 15:07:47 GMT 1
KN hasn't taken us backwards, we would almost certainly have gone down if he never came along. I don't think he is a chancer, investor, put a bit of cash in, if its doesn't work out then he FO, cuts his losses and moves elsewhere. I believe he is a shrewd businessman (obviously) and this includes Huddersfield Town and the local area. Sorry but that's complete nonsense. Of course he's taken us backwards and no we wouldn't almost certainly have been relegated without him! I've no idea what would make you conclude that. Hoyle secured championship status and it was Kevin's to lose. Lose it he did through a series of ridiculous, ill advised, ill thought out, naive and pig headed decisions. Most of them probably made by his DoF but as per this thread title the buck stops with him. Would anyone other than the current exec team have been dumb enough to sack Warnock when they did and appoint a wholly inappropriate replacement when they did? That's before we even talk about Andre, January and the summer window. Anyone with reasonable judgement on here called it at the time. Anyone with any knowledge of the football league called it. So no, we wouldn't have been relegated anyway, and yes he has taken us backwards. It's now his responsibility to put it right, which he is trying to do. How well it's going is open to debate but I think it's fair to say there's one area in particular that badly needs addressing before we get back to the previous level. I'm not suggesting his intentions aren't good but he's got a lot of making to do do just to put the club back where he found it. |
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Post by detox on Nov 6, 2024 15:31:34 GMT 1
Premier League in 3 years....KN had better get a move on then..
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Post by mosher on Nov 6, 2024 15:58:49 GMT 1
Premier League in 3 years....KN had better get a move on then.. Except KN never said that, King Colin dropped it as a hand grenade to show his ire. Whether it was a private aim we'll never know but not once has KN (or his sidekick) said in public PL in 3 years. |
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Post by runner76 on Nov 6, 2024 16:21:52 GMT 1
KN hasn't taken us backwards, we would almost certainly have gone down if he never came along. I don't think he is a chancer, investor, put a bit of cash in, if its doesn't work out then he FO, cuts his losses and moves elsewhere. I believe he is a shrewd businessman (obviously) and this includes Huddersfield Town and the local area. The fact we are in the third division is the very basic definition of taking us backwards...... Seems as though he is trying to take us forwards, but there is no doubt he has taken us backwards! |
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