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Post by townarentbest on Dec 19, 2023 16:59:40 GMT 1
Info from law chambers who negotiate football managers contracts is that it happens in almost ALL cases that a managers contract will have liquidated damages and/or other termination clauses written in, which would always amount to less than a simple pay-out of the mentioned outstanding maximum contract term. Remember also that the statutory right to appeal an unfair dismissal only applies after 2 years - so it's in the managers interest to agree in advance exit terms, even if they seem unfavourable compared to your made up scenario where they get paid for the full outstanding term! 2 years? I got told 1 year by ACAS when I contacted them about my last employers. Or is it dependent on the industry you're in? Think it used to be 1 year but went to 2 (some years ago). |
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Post by leroy212 on Dec 19, 2023 17:02:33 GMT 1
I'm sure he's a lovely fella. But business is business and we're suffering too much to pussy foot around do you think the powers that be, still believe hes the right man? or are they taking notice of fan opinion and falling attendances |
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Maynardblue
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Post by Maynardblue on Dec 19, 2023 17:04:40 GMT 1
I'm sure he's a lovely fella. But business is business and we're suffering too much to pussy foot around do you think the powers that be, still believe hes the right man? or are they taking notice of fan opinion and falling attendances The latter |
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Post by mosher on Dec 19, 2023 17:05:20 GMT 1
2 years? I got told 1 year by ACAS when I contacted them about my last employers. Or is it dependent on the industry you're in? Think it used to be 1 year but went to 2 (some years ago). Was July 2018 I was sacked/released/made redundant. And November 2019 when I contacted ACAS about it. Maybe the girl I spoke to was just crap or having a bad day  |
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Post by townarentbest on Dec 19, 2023 17:22:53 GMT 1
Think it used to be 1 year but went to 2 (some years ago). Was July 2018 I was sacked/released/made redundant. And November 2019 when I contacted ACAS about it. Maybe the girl I spoke to was just crap or having a bad day Not sure if you're misunderstanding me, I'm talking about " you need to have been employed for 2 years to be able to claim unfair dismissal" (ie - football managers can rarely ever go down this route), whereas you seem to be saying, " I wanted to claim for unfair dismissal more than 1 years but less than 2 years AFTER being released (from a job assumedly you'd been in for longer than 2 years) and was told it was 1 year so I couldn't". From UKGov - qualifying period - is what I'm on about. But also from that same page, "In unfair dismissal claims you must make the claim to a tribunal within 3 months of being dismissed." seems to cover what you're saying and would seem to disregard you from being able to claim? maybe that current 3months window to make a claim used to be 1 year? 🤷♂️ Or she was having a bad day! |
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Post by portugalterrier on Dec 19, 2023 18:44:40 GMT 1
But not usually in football managers contracts, unless the “ new manager” is desperate for the job, and that’s info from a Sports Management Co. Info from law chambers who negotiate football managers contracts is that it happens in almost ALL cases that a managers contract will have liquidated damages and/or other termination clauses written in, which would always amount to less than a simple pay-out of the mentioned outstanding maximum contract term. Remember also that the statutory right to appeal an unfair dismissal only applies after 2 years - so it's in the managers interest to agree in advance exit terms, even if they seem unfavourable compared to your made up scenario where they get paid for the full outstanding term! Agree, but you also have to factor in a manager being poached for another job, a contract with termination clauses can affect the compensation payable, this is why I can’t understand Hoyle letting Corberan walk away to join Olympiacos . |
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Post by portugalterrier on Dec 19, 2023 18:50:16 GMT 1
Was July 2018 I was sacked/released/made redundant. And November 2019 when I contacted ACAS about it. Maybe the girl I spoke to was just crap or having a bad day Not sure if you're misunderstanding me, I'm talking about " you need to have been employed for 2 years to be able to claim unfair dismissal" (ie - football managers can rarely ever go down this route), whereas you seem to be saying, " I wanted to claim for unfair dismissal more than 1 years but less than 2 years AFTER being released (from a job assumedly you'd been in for longer than 2 years) and was told it was 1 year so I couldn't". From UKGov - qualifying period - is what I'm on about. But also from that same page, "In unfair dismissal claims you must make the claim to a tribunal within 3 months of being dismissed." seems to cover what you're saying and would seem to disregard you from being able to claim? maybe that current 3months window to make a claim used to be 1 year? 🤷♂️ Or she was having a bad day! Also most jobs aren’t fixed period contracts, you have unfair termination rights after two years employment after which you have unfair dismissal protection, think this doesn’t apply if your dismissal is down to racial, sexual etc reasons which protect jobs immediately , that’s my rough understanding. |
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Post by Benhamer1 on Dec 19, 2023 23:34:05 GMT 1
Probably. 96 points is still a lot though…and it doesn’t look like the Sheff Wed squad was that good really. I’m playing devils advocate really. If you said he was off I’d be pleased regardless of what sounds like me defending him. I know what you're saying and I expected him to have much more about him with his record, but he's miles off it at this level. Should really be plying his trade in lg2 but here he is. Take Barry Bannan out of their team last season and they struggle to make the play offs - any clued up Wednesday fan would agree. If he’s so shit how does he get the job in the first place? Were there any other candidates |
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on Dec 20, 2023 0:48:51 GMT 1
I know what you're saying and I expected him to have much more about him with his record, but he's miles off it at this level. Should really be plying his trade in lg2 but here he is. Take Barry Bannan out of their team last season and they struggle to make the play offs - any clued up Wednesday fan would agree. If he’s so shit how does he get the job in the first place? Were there any other candidates KN did not like Warnocks response to his tweet and they found someone else sharpish. |
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Post by townarentbest on Dec 20, 2023 3:40:52 GMT 1
Not sure if you're misunderstanding me, I'm talking about " you need to have been employed for 2 years to be able to claim unfair dismissal" (ie - football managers can rarely ever go down this route), whereas you seem to be saying, " I wanted to claim for unfair dismissal more than 1 years but less than 2 years AFTER being released (from a job assumedly you'd been in for longer than 2 years) and was told it was 1 year so I couldn't". From UKGov - qualifying period - is what I'm on about. But also from that same page, "In unfair dismissal claims you must make the claim to a tribunal within 3 months of being dismissed." seems to cover what you're saying and would seem to disregard you from being able to claim? maybe that current 3months window to make a claim used to be 1 year? 🤷♂️ Or she was having a bad day! Also most jobs aren’t fixed period contracts, you have unfair termination rights after two years employment after which you have unfair dismissal protection, think this doesn’t apply if your dismissal is down to racial, sexual etc reasons which protect jobs immediately , that’s my rough understanding. Yes, but football managers (typically) lose their job in less than 2 years, & don’t have that protection, so I don’t know why you were insisting that DM is sitting on 3 years of guaranteed pay when that’s obviously not close to the truth and dumping him wouldn’t be a massive financial burden now compared to doing the same in 2 years time 🤷♂️ |
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Post by townohiofan on Dec 20, 2023 5:33:39 GMT 1
I'm someone that wants to give managers time as I think we're too quick to put all the blame at their feet and some likely rush to blame the manager instead of being accountable. Last weekend was a disgrace and should have been the final dagger. Decent squad available against crap opposition and we offered close to nothing and no signs that will change over a prolonged period. Whoever is working on set pieces should have been let go a handful of matches in. Players often playing in roles that aren't suitable (not just down to selection available. Adjustments have been very poor).
Hoping we go with someone that is innovative and a quality man manager. Won't care much about their background if they can check those two boxes. Hopeful of serious prolonged improvement but can't see it. Imagine the players we could have brought in if we didn't constantly have to pay out failed managerial contracts.
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Post by mosher on Dec 20, 2023 9:24:52 GMT 1
Was July 2018 I was sacked/released/made redundant. And November 2019 when I contacted ACAS about it. Maybe the girl I spoke to was just crap or having a bad day Not sure if you're misunderstanding me, I'm talking about " you need to have been employed for 2 years to be able to claim unfair dismissal" (ie - football managers can rarely ever go down this route), whereas you seem to be saying, " I wanted to claim for unfair dismissal more than 1 years but less than 2 years AFTER being released (from a job assumedly you'd been in for longer than 2 years) and was told it was 1 year so I couldn't". From UKGov - qualifying period - is what I'm on about. But also from that same page, "In unfair dismissal claims you must make the claim to a tribunal within 3 months of being dismissed." seems to cover what you're saying and would seem to disregard you from being able to claim? maybe that current 3months window to make a claim used to be 1 year? 🤷♂️ Or she was having a bad day! Ahh, yeah complete misunderstanding lol Wow, I didn't realise it was only 3 months now. Was employed there for 18 years so definitely qualified that way  |
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Post by TJTown on Dec 20, 2023 12:50:28 GMT 1
Seems to be more and more evidence surfacing that it's not working, or more importantly, not going to work.
The sooner the club realises this the better as it's all pointing one way.
We can talk about stability and chopping and changing, but to have stability you need a good manager and everyone together.
Clearly not the case on both counts.
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Post by desertstorm on Dec 20, 2023 12:56:08 GMT 1
Seems to be more and more evidence surfacing that it's not working, or more importantly, not going to work. The sooner the club realises this the better as it's all pointing one way. We can talk about stability and chopping and changing, but to have stability you need a good manager and everyone together. Clearly not the case on both counts. The club realises!!! Silence isn’t always a true indicator of what happens behind the scenes. If someone is to move on there has to be a clear exit strategy. January is huge, on many levels. |
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ambryboy
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Post by ambryboy on Dec 20, 2023 12:59:56 GMT 1
2 wins in a third of a season would see most managers brushing up their CV.
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Post by bells ringing :) on Dec 20, 2023 13:01:52 GMT 1
Seems to be more and more evidence surfacing that it's not working, or more importantly, not going to work. The sooner the club realises this the better as it's all pointing one way. We can talk about stability and chopping and changing, but to have stability you need a good manager and everyone together. Clearly not the case on both counts. The club realises!!! Silence isn’t always a true indicator of what happens behind the scenes. If someone is to move on there has to be a clear exit strategy. January is huge, on many levels. Are you implying that the club, is active in looking to replace Moore. That the rumours we have heard have some truth? |
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Post by castlehillterrier on Dec 20, 2023 13:12:33 GMT 1
Seems to be more and more evidence surfacing that it's not working, or more importantly, not going to work. The sooner the club realises this the better as it's all pointing one way. We can talk about stability and chopping and changing, but to have stability you need a good manager and everyone together. Clearly not the case on both counts. The club realises!!! Silence isn’t always a true indicator of what happens behind the scenes. If someone is to move on there has to be a clear exit strategy. January is huge, on many levels. The club is fully aware that things need to change, Darren will be given chance to be part of this change how long he is given without a change in the performances / approach is anyones guess, but to be clear the full team from top to bottom including Darren are not happy with current performances and are working hard on a plan to change this. I still feel we need to give Darren a chance to sort it out, with a few new signings and players coming back, the target of staying in the championship is still very acheivable, I also fully agree that it does need to start to change sooner rather than later however. |
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Post by dezzly on Dec 20, 2023 13:19:05 GMT 1
The club realises!!! Silence isn’t always a true indicator of what happens behind the scenes. If someone is to move on there has to be a clear exit strategy. January is huge, on many levels. Are you implying that the club, is active in looking to replace Moore. That the rumours we have heard have some truth? Tbh if they aren’t they should be.On results alone nothing else thrown into the mix they should at least be looking and maybe sounding people out.That would just be good practice. |
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Post by Detective Boyle on Dec 20, 2023 13:34:52 GMT 1
Seems to be more and more evidence surfacing that it's not working, or more importantly, not going to work. The sooner the club realises this the better as it's all pointing one way. We can talk about stability and chopping and changing, but to have stability you need a good manager and everyone together. Clearly not the case on both counts. The club realises!!! Silence isn’t always a true indicator of what happens behind the scenes. If someone is to move on there has to be a clear exit strategy. January is huge, on many levels. 3 year bloody contract. I hope Cartwright is shown the door as well because that’s diabolical and sack-worthy. |
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Post by castlehillterrier on Dec 20, 2023 13:36:03 GMT 1
Are you implying that the club, is active in looking to replace Moore. That the rumours we have heard have some truth? Tbh if they aren’t they should be.On results alone nothing else thrown into the mix they should at least be looking and maybe sounding people out.That would just be good practice. looking for our next manager started the day we appointed our last manager, they are like players you are always looking as a change is possible at any time. It would be very poor from any club to not have some ideas of the next man at all times. |
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Post by dezzly on Dec 20, 2023 13:43:56 GMT 1
Tbh if they aren’t they should be.On results alone nothing else thrown into the mix they should at least be looking and maybe sounding people out.That would just be good practice. looking for our next manager started the day we appointed our last manager, they are like players you are always looking as a change is possible at any time. It would be very poor from any club to not have some ideas of the next man at all times. Correct.although at times like now I would imagine that has accelerated somewhat or maybe even moved onto speaking to people to gauge what they think. |
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Post by desertstorm on Dec 20, 2023 13:43:57 GMT 1
The club realises!!! Silence isn’t always a true indicator of what happens behind the scenes. If someone is to move on there has to be a clear exit strategy. January is huge, on many levels. The club is fully aware that things need to change, Darren will be given chance to be part of this change how long he is given without a change in the performances / approach is anyones guess, but to be clear the full team from top to bottom including Darren are not happy with current performances and are working hard on a plan to change this. I still feel we need to give Darren a chance to sort it out, with a few new signings and players coming back, the target of staying in the championship is still very acheivable, I also fully agree that it does need to start to change sooner rather than later however. Will he ?! 🤔 |
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digs
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Post by digs on Dec 20, 2023 13:57:52 GMT 1
Tbh if they aren’t they should be.On results alone nothing else thrown into the mix they should at least be looking and maybe sounding people out.That would just be good practice. looking for our next manager started the day we appointed our last manager, they are like players you are always looking as a change is possible at any time. It would be very poor from any club to not have some ideas of the next man at all times. More like we sack the manager,then see who's available on the cheap |
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Post by richhtfc on Dec 20, 2023 14:07:54 GMT 1
The club is fully aware that things need to change, Darren will be given chance to be part of this change how long he is given without a change in the performances / approach is anyones guess, but to be clear the full team from top to bottom including Darren are not happy with current performances and are working hard on a plan to change this. I still feel we need to give Darren a chance to sort it out, with a few new signings and players coming back, the target of staying in the championship is still very acheivable, I also fully agree that it does need to start to change sooner rather than later however. Will he ?! 🤔 Sounds ominous |
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Post by kennyk2 on Dec 20, 2023 14:10:12 GMT 1
I'm afraid that Moore's time may be almost up. I think the suits would have liked to have kept him for a while longer and give him a chance with January signings, but when the fanbase seems to be so vehemently against the manager there will be only one result. DM will never get that goodwill from a section of fans whatever he does now. He seems to have really gone into his shell after much personal criticism and that is a shame for someone who appears to be a decent bloke.
I've heard plenty about there being dissension in the dressing room, but the players have really played for him and put a shift in over the last few games even if the football is woeful and the results have not been forthcoming.
If we are going to decide who is culpable here, it can only be the people who chose the manager. Berry and Cartwright will have to take a hit when Moore goes and they'll probably get one more chance to put it right. They can partly rectify the situation with signings in January... who knows how this will turn out.
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Post by portugalterrier on Dec 20, 2023 14:31:20 GMT 1
Also most jobs aren’t fixed period contracts, you have unfair termination rights after two years employment after which you have unfair dismissal protection, think this doesn’t apply if your dismissal is down to racial, sexual etc reasons which protect jobs immediately , that’s my rough understanding. Yes, but football managers (typically) lose their job in less than 2 years, & don’t have that protection, so I don’t know why you were insisting that DM is sitting on 3 years of guaranteed pay when that’s obviously not close to the truth and dumping him wouldn’t be a massive financial burden now compared to doing the same in 2 years time 🤷♂️ Do you know the exact terms of Moores contract ? I’d guess you don’t . If a club insisted on notice periods, then it’s highly likely the manager would also insist on notice periods , which is almost a given, this would mean that a club wanting to poach that manager this could restrict compensation to the notice period. . So as neither of us knows the details of Moores and his staffs contract , it would be prudent to assume the worst case that the club would be liable to payout the length of their contracts. |
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Post by townarentbest on Dec 20, 2023 15:16:16 GMT 1
2 wins in a third of a season would see most managers brushing up their CV. The quandary I guess is that one loss in six, and only conceding more than 1 once in the last 8 usually wouldn't (irrespective of the amount of draws, which are largely down to the lack of a goal-scorer...not much DM can do about that). We're half a goal per game away from a perfectly respectable finish. One decent player could deliver that. |
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Post by harris on Dec 20, 2023 15:23:02 GMT 1
2 wins in a third of a season would see most managers brushing up their CV. The quandary I guess is that one loss in six, and only conceding more than 1 once in the last 8 usually wouldn't (irrespective of the amount of draws, which are largely down to the lack of a goal-scorer...not much DM can do about that). We're half a goal per game away from a perfectly respectable finish. One decent player could deliver that. Only 5 losses in 15 too. We’re not far off, which I put down to the squad more than anything. Get some quality additions, turn some draws into wins and we’ll be absolutely fine. |
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Post by portugalterrier on Dec 20, 2023 15:23:45 GMT 1
Moores job is safe till at least mid Feb, there is no immediate threat to his job, subject to the usual caveats that no managers job is secure.
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Post by Venezuelan Pete on Dec 20, 2023 15:23:50 GMT 1
I'm afraid that Moore's time may be almost up. I think the suits would have liked to have kept him for a while longer and give him a chance with January signings, but when the fanbase seems to be so vehemently against the manager there will be only one result. DM will never get that goodwill from a section of fans whatever he does now. He seems to have really gone into his shell after much personal criticism and that is a shame for someone who appears to be a decent bloke. I've heard plenty about there being dissension in the dressing room, but the players have really played for him and put a shift in over the last few games even if the football is woeful and the results have not been forthcoming. If we are going to decide who is culpable here, it can only be the people who chose the manager. Berry and Cartwright will have to take a hit when Moore goes and they'll probably get one more chance to put it right. They can partly rectify the situation with signings in January... who knows how this will turn out. Who is Berry? |
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