|
|
Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Feb 14, 2024 15:38:31 GMT 1
VLP’s allusion to “amateur” goings on and Ben’s posts a week or so ago about KN now seeing for himself Cartwright’s “incompetence” (or however Ben phrased it) lead me to think that it’s likely true. This all puts pressure on Jon Worthington, probably unfairly. JW has been as clear as he can be that he wants to continue with his job with the academy, so you can’t blame him for seeking assurances that he will be able to return to that role, irrespective of how long he’s in charge of the first team and irrespective of results. It’s all pointing towards these two home games v Sunderland and Hull being critically important for everyone. Six points will go a long way to pushing Town into a group of clubs fighting to avoid the last relegation spot (I consider Rotherham and Wendies almost gone) and will buy the Board valuable time. Two points or less and panic could set in and JW could be the fall guy, which would be extremely unfair and very bad business for the club. Problem is that none of the people listed have any credibility in terms of being 'in the know' no offence intended. even the usual 'in the knows' seem to be out of the loop. likely true would be a big jump Personally, I happen to think both VLP and Ben have some credibility about being “ITK”, just my opinion from what they’ve said over the years (or maybe how they’ve said it)……unlike the clear bullshitters who just aren’t clever enough to hide it. |
|
|
|
Post by King Neil on Feb 14, 2024 15:44:44 GMT 1
The succession plan should've seen us with a new manager fairly swiftly. The fact that hasn't happened reflects poorly on the leadership and should result in Cartwright being given the bullet - he either didn't have a plan, had one that immediately fell apart (first choice turning us down) or his plan has been overruled by Edwards and/or Nagle. His position is now surely untenable. Worthy has been left out for the wolves - he's done very well, but it could have got really ugly. Hopefully he gets at least 3 points in the next couple of games, but if the results are poor then he's going to get shredded for a situation of someone else's making. As others have said, if he's getting the gig for more than the next couple of games then we should get someone experienced in to help him. I assume the B Team manager was brought in for that purpose (he could already be doing it for all I know!). I also think if Plan A has failed we should go to B and get a pragmatist in until summer that can keep us up. Yes we'll look foolish, but better than being relegated and potentially humiliate a loyal servant and former club captain as we go. Or alternatively we get a couple of great results this week and everyone is happy and we sail off into the sunset Draws won't keep us up so it's best to have a go and try get the 3 I think worthy has seen wagner..Carlos and warnock on the training field in his time here,so he's not so wet behind the ears as some people might think I think Mick Buxton started as caretaker and ended up getting us 2 promotions so the theory all caretakers end up being shit is not quite true |
|
|
|
Post by pterrier on Feb 14, 2024 15:49:02 GMT 1
We could do a lot worse than worthy, I’d much rather have him than some journey man football league name. He seems to have a positive approach and fundamentally he knows the players strengths and can play them in the right positions. End of the season, if we stay up we could probably attract a bigger name, for now I think we’ll struggle to attract a decent name considering our perilous position
|
|
|
|
Post by htafcokay on Feb 14, 2024 15:50:21 GMT 1
The succession plan should've seen us with a new manager fairly swiftly. The fact that hasn't happened reflects poorly on the leadership and should result in Cartwright being given the bullet - he either didn't have a plan, had one that immediately fell apart (first choice turning us down) or his plan has been overruled by Edwards and/or Nagle. His position is now surely untenable. Worthy has been left out for the wolves - he's done very well, but it could have got really ugly. Hopefully he gets at least 3 points in the next couple of games, but if the results are poor then he's going to get shredded for a situation of someone else's making. As others have said, if he's getting the gig for more than the next couple of games then we should get someone experienced in to help him. I assume the B Team manager was brought in for that purpose (he could already be doing it for all I know!). I also think if Plan A has failed we should go to B and get a pragmatist in until summer that can keep us up. Yes we'll look foolish, but better than being relegated and potentially humiliate a loyal servant and former club captain as we go. Or alternatively we get a couple of great results this week and everyone is happy and we sail off into the sunset Draws won't keep us up so it's best to have a go and try get the 3 I think worthy has seen wagner..Carlos and warnock on the training field in his time here,so he's not so wet behind the ears as some people might think I think Mick Buxton started as caretaker and ended up getting us 2 promotions so the theory all caretakers end up being shit is not quite true We have only ever appointed five caretaker managers as permanent managers. Eddie Boot, Mick Buxton, Steve Smith, Eoin Hand, Lou Macari. Make up your own minds whether they were successful or not. |
|
incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,532
|
Post by incognito on Feb 14, 2024 15:51:51 GMT 1
VLP’s allusion to “amateur” goings on and Ben’s posts a week or so ago about KN now seeing for himself Cartwright’s “incompetence” (or however Ben phrased it) lead me to think that it’s likely true. This all puts pressure on Jon Worthington, probably unfairly. JW has been as clear as he can be that he wants to continue with his job with the academy, so you can’t blame him for seeking assurances that he will be able to return to that role, irrespective of how long he’s in charge of the first team and irrespective of results. It’s all pointing towards these two home games v Sunderland and Hull being critically important for everyone. Six points will go a long way to pushing Town into a group of clubs fighting to avoid the last relegation spot (I consider Rotherham and Wendies almost gone) and will buy the Board valuable time. Two points or less and panic could set in and JW could be the fall guy, which would be extremely unfair and very bad business for the club. Problem is that none of the people listed have any credibility in terms of being 'in the know' no offence intended. even the usual 'in the knows' seem to be out of the loop. likely true would be a big jump It's pretty clear that they (along with a few others) do hear bits and pieces from people within the club, and their sharing it on here is always appreciated. That said, I'd always be hesitant to take any of it as read without considering the possible motivations of sources. Particularly during a period of regime change when some existing staff members' noses could quite conceivably have been put out of joint. |
|
|
|
Post by mosher on Feb 14, 2024 15:53:17 GMT 1
I hope these people pining for the return of Wagner aren't the same people that would turn on him immediately things started going wrong.
How many times has a manager gone back to a club and been successful?
King Colin, Jacko and who else among the thousands of sackings?
|
|
|
|
Post by Oblong of Dreams on Feb 14, 2024 15:53:35 GMT 1
Memory playing tricks with me... 1979-80 H 7-1 ? The other one was I was thinking of was actually Crystal Palace under Brucie. Missed that one, was working at Lodges supermarket in Waterloo, missed the 7 against Lincoln United in the cup as was playing in those days and missed the 7 against Brighton coz I was on holiday. At least I saw the 7 against Palace! Still got the Palace game on VHS after the club decided to sell copies. No way of playing it sadly... The Port Vale game I always remember was a night game in 97/98- I'd been down in London with my dad cos he had a business meeting and I bunked off school to go down with him because the Motor Show was on at Earls Court and I could use it as "research" for my Design & Tech GCSE. Got to the Potteries in good time but took us ages to find our way to the ground using the floodlights as a guide- no Google maps in those days. Got in 30mins after kick-off and i think we were already 2-0 down, final score 4-1... and it pissed it down too! |
|
|
|
Post by King Neil on Feb 14, 2024 15:56:37 GMT 1
Or alternatively we get a couple of great results this week and everyone is happy and we sail off into the sunset Draws won't keep us up so it's best to have a go and try get the 3 I think worthy has seen wagner..Carlos and warnock on the training field in his time here,so he's not so wet behind the ears as some people might think I think Mick Buxton started as caretaker and ended up getting us 2 promotions so the theory all caretakers end up being shit is not quite true We have only ever appointed five caretaker managers as permanent managers. Eddie Boot, Mick Buxton, Steve Smith, Eoin Hand, Lou Macari. Make up your own minds whether they were successful or not. Mick Buxton certainly was |
|
|
|
Post by htafcokay on Feb 14, 2024 15:57:31 GMT 1
We have only ever appointed five caretaker managers as permanent managers. Eddie Boot, Mick Buxton, Steve Smith, Eoin Hand, Lou Macari. Make up your own minds whether they were successful or not. Mick Buxton certainly was Steve Smith certainly wasn't. |
|
DuffMan
Iain Dunn Terrier
Posts: 541
|
Post by DuffMan on Feb 14, 2024 15:57:50 GMT 1
Problem is that none of the people listed have any credibility in terms of being 'in the know' no offence intended. even the usual 'in the knows' seem to be out of the loop. likely true would be a big jump It's pretty clear that they (along with a few others) do hear bits and pieces from people within the club, and their sharing it on here is always appreciated. That said, I'd always be hesitant to take any of it as read without considering the possible motivations of sources. Particularly during a period of regime change when some existing staff members' noses could quite conceivably have been put out of joint. Like I say not intending to offend anyone, not even sure if I say someone isn't in the know it can be classed as offensive but I've never know either poster to come forward with credible information about the manager recruitment process or player recruitment. I'd imagine the only people that are ITK at the minute are mark cartwright/kevin nagle/jake edwards plus justasmithers. Coaches, players, worthy even, will not be in the inner circle of the process so to be calling it amateur without context is strange. What about the process is amateur? Being rejected by a prospective manager and asking your caretaker if they can carry on? wouldn't call that amateur. They could be accused of lack of succession planning but that's about all we can speculate on. |
|
|
|
Post by Oblong of Dreams on Feb 14, 2024 15:58:17 GMT 1
I hope these people pining for the return of Wagner aren't the same people that would turn on him immediately things started going wrong. How many times has a manager gone back to a club and been successful? King Colin, Jacko and who else among the thousands of sackings? Based solely on what they've done since leaving I'd have Carlos back before Dave. Also he has unfinished business here thanks to corrupt officials. Wagner coming back would be a risk of tainting his legacy. |
|
|
|
Post by VLP Fan Club on Feb 14, 2024 15:58:34 GMT 1
Mick Buxton certainly was Steve Smith certainly wasn't. A much better batsman |
|
|
|
Post by TommyTheTerrier on Feb 14, 2024 16:01:18 GMT 1
Writing was on the wall for Moore for a long time, other clubs usually have an immediate replacement lined up and ready to go. So should we. I'm all for taking our time with this, but it was evident Moore should be gone weeks before he was given the bullet.
|
|
DuffMan
Iain Dunn Terrier
Posts: 541
|
Post by DuffMan on Feb 14, 2024 16:02:42 GMT 1
Writing was on the wall for Moore for a long time, other clubs usually have an immediate replacement lined up and ready to go. So should we. I'm all for taking our time with this, but it was evident Moore should be gone weeks before he was given the bullet. I imagine we did but thankfully they seem to have put mark cartwrights black book in the bin 😂 |
|
|
|
Post by mosher on Feb 14, 2024 16:03:08 GMT 1
I hope these people pining for the return of Wagner aren't the same people that would turn on him immediately things started going wrong. How many times has a manager gone back to a club and been successful? King Colin, Jacko and who else among the thousands of sackings? Based solely on what they've done since leaving I'd have Carlos back before Dave. Also he has unfinished business here thanks to corrupt officials. Wagner coming back would be a risk of tainting his legacy. Whilst I agree with the sentiment/reasoning I wouldn't want either back. Despite it being a winning formula Carlos' football was atrocious and brain-deadening. Can't remember how many times I came out of a game thinking how the hell have we won/drawn. No need to ask the opinion of htafcokay on the subject of Carlos, I THINK he agrees with me  |
|
|
|
Post by htafcokay on Feb 14, 2024 16:04:24 GMT 1
Based solely on what they've done since leaving I'd have Carlos back before Dave. Also he has unfinished business here thanks to corrupt officials. Wagner coming back would be a risk of tainting his legacy. Whilst I agree with the sentiment/reasoning I wouldn't want either back. Despite it being a winning formula Carlos' football was atrocious and brain-deadening. Can't remember how many times I came out of a game thinking how the hell have we won/drawn. No need to ask the opinion of htafcokay on the subject of Carlos, I THINK he agrees with me It was brilliant football and he's one of our greatest ever managers. |
|
|
|
Post by King Neil on Feb 14, 2024 16:08:33 GMT 1
Mick Buxton certainly was Steve Smith certainly wasn't. Macari OK...hand below average |
|
|
|
Post by royrace on Feb 14, 2024 16:09:59 GMT 1
I hope these people pining for the return of Wagner aren't the same people that would turn on him immediately things started going wrong. How many times has a manager gone back to a club and been successful? King Colin, Jacko and who else among the thousands of sackings? Eddie Howe, Nathan Jones, Roy Hodgson off top of my head. I'm sure there are many more, those three were all successful, I'm guessing there are failures too but I can't think of any just now! |
|
|
|
Post by htafcokay on Feb 14, 2024 16:11:26 GMT 1
Steve Smith certainly wasn't. Macari OK...hand below average Both experienced managers. Whereas Boot and Smith were pushed into a role that wasn't for them and the pressure became too much. |
|
DuffMan
Iain Dunn Terrier
Posts: 541
|
Post by DuffMan on Feb 14, 2024 16:12:27 GMT 1
I hope these people pining for the return of Wagner aren't the same people that would turn on him immediately things started going wrong. How many times has a manager gone back to a club and been successful? King Colin, Jacko and who else among the thousands of sackings? Eddie Howe, Nathan Jones, Roy Hodgson off top of my head. I'm sure there are many more, those three were all successful, I'm guessing there are failures too but I can't think of any just now! Moyesy |
|
|
|
Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Feb 14, 2024 16:12:32 GMT 1
Steve Smith certainly wasn't. Macari OK...hand below average Not sure Hand was below average, took over a difficult situation from Malvolm Mcdonald, worse season in the clubs history. His sacking remains a mystery to me to this day. |
|
|
|
Post by The King's Head 1230 on Feb 14, 2024 16:12:32 GMT 1
It begs the question if true. Why are our targeted individual(s) turning us down? (Potential relegation?)
Been pessimistic I think we will be relegated unless Worthy can get these players to perform week in week out.
Given prime targets aren't interested I'd give Jon the extended interim role & see how it pans out. With assurances he retains his former role.
Get this confirmed & the message is Staff, players & most importantly the fans. We are in this together & let's try & secure safety. There is evidence of togetherness & some fight since Moore left. So no more bad decisions let's go for it & re-evaluate when we know our destiny.
|
|
|
|
Post by htafcokay on Feb 14, 2024 16:16:34 GMT 1
Macari OK...hand below average Not sure Hand was below average, took over a difficult situation from Malvolm Mcdonald, worse season in the clubs history. His sacking remains a mystery to me to this day. We'd only won two in 12 before he was sacked and we'd dropped down to 6th. |
|
DuffMan
Iain Dunn Terrier
Posts: 541
|
Post by DuffMan on Feb 14, 2024 16:18:03 GMT 1
It begs the question if true. Why are our targeted individual(s) turning us down? (Potential relegation?) Been pessimistic I think we will be relegated unless Worthy can get these players to perform week in week out. Given prime targets aren't interested I'd give Jon the extended interim role & see how it pans out. With assurances he retains his former role. Get this confirmed & the message is Staff, players & most importantly the fans. We are in this together & let's try & secure safety. There is evidence of togetherness & some fight since Moore left. So no more bad decisions let's go for it & re-evaluate when we know our destiny. I'd assume it is quite difficult to attract someone in our current situation, the damage was done when we appointed Moore and left it too late to get rid. I wouldn't be overly happy with worthy until the end of the season but I can understand why they would do it if it meant not appointing another bore of a manager that they'd have to sack soon. |
|
|
|
Post by royrace on Feb 14, 2024 16:19:39 GMT 1
We could do a lot worse than worthy, I’d much rather have him than some journey man football league name. He seems to have a positive approach and fundamentally he knows the players strengths and can play them in the right positions. End of the season, if we stay up we could probably attract a bigger name, for now I think we’ll struggle to attract a decent name considering our perilous position My preference would be someone with experience of this league and a good track record in it. If we can't find that, and Worthy does well in these next couple of games, then I guess it's no bigger risk than getting a new man in who is totally inexperienced in the championship? The league position and timing makes it a very tricky situation. If we bring in a wildcard with no experience of the league and no knowledge of this squad and the opposition then is that even more risky than keeping Worthy as caretaker? Possibly? All depends on the next two games I guess, all I know is that he comes across very well but so did Narcis. All it means is that the players will likely respect him, listen to him and like him but doesn't mean he'll be successful. It is quite surprising to be in this situation since it's been on the cards for months. They've made it very hard for themselves though. By all accounts we took the game to Southampton away from home and were one of the toughest opponents they've come up against. Hopefully that wasn't a flash in the pan and is grounds for optimism. |
|
Yuta be a terrier
Andy Booth Terrier
That Gary Taylor fletcher will never make a footballer.....
Posts: 3,653
|
Post by Yuta be a terrier on Feb 14, 2024 16:20:22 GMT 1
It begs the question if true. Why are our targeted individual(s) turning us down? (Potential relegation?) Been pessimistic I think we will be relegated unless Worthy can get these players to perform week in week out. Given prime targets aren't interested I'd give Jon the extended interim role & see how it pans out. With assurances he retains his former role. Get this confirmed & the message is Staff, players & most importantly the fans. We are in this together & let's try & secure safety. There is evidence of togetherness & some fight since Moore left. So no more bad decisions let's go for it & re-evaluate when we know our destiny. We are now unattractive because we are in a relegation battle which has come about because we employed a manager who wasn't very good after we sacked one who was doing OK. However when we employed the previous manager, we did this from "a position of strength". Now we are massively in a position of weakness. The people who made that decision, not necessarily parting with Warnock but replacing him with who they did, have massively ballsed up. Now they can't sort another replacement and are relying on a long term employee who has never managed to dig them out the mire. Heads should roll. |
|
|
|
Post by royrace on Feb 14, 2024 16:26:08 GMT 1
It begs the question if true. Why are our targeted individual(s) turning us down? (Potential relegation?) Been pessimistic I think we will be relegated unless Worthy can get these players to perform week in week out. Given prime targets aren't interested I'd give Jon the extended interim role & see how it pans out. With assurances he retains his former role. Get this confirmed & the message is Staff, players & most importantly the fans. We are in this together & let's try & secure safety. There is evidence of togetherness & some fight since Moore left. So no more bad decisions let's go for it & re-evaluate when we know our destiny. It is a worry. I'm hoping it means we're aiming high and not that mediocre managers have looked at it, listened to Kevin's plans and said no thanks. Nathan Jones has just gone from PL to L1, I'd like to think any quality manager would back himself to keep us up and worst case scenario deal with the situation is he couldn't. |
|
|
|
Post by rockwall on Feb 14, 2024 16:26:34 GMT 1
People keep banging on about how people won't come because of our position.
Would you want someone who didn't believe in themselves that they could keep us up?
I certainly wouldn't.
A lot making out we are doomed and it is worse than it actually is.
I fancy us to get more points over the rest of the season than Stoke, Millwall, Swansea and Plymouth.
|
|
|
|
Post by mosher on Feb 14, 2024 16:27:05 GMT 1
I hope these people pining for the return of Wagner aren't the same people that would turn on him immediately things started going wrong. How many times has a manager gone back to a club and been successful? King Colin, Jacko and who else among the thousands of sackings? Eddie Howe, Nathan Jones, Roy Hodgson off top of my head. I'm sure there are many more, those three were all successful, I'm guessing there are failures too but I can't think of any just now! I'd class anyone who wasn't a success as a relative failure so 3 out of the many that have gone back is a minority IMO. All about perceptions and opinions though where success/failure is concerned. |
|
|
|
Post by King Neil on Feb 14, 2024 16:27:23 GMT 1
Macari OK...hand below average Not sure Hand was below average, took over a difficult situation from Malvolm Mcdonald, worse season in the clubs history. His sacking remains a mystery to me to this day. Maybe he wasn't I can't fully remember his reign tbh,,but I can remember holding a hand out banner up at an away day at crewe on a bad run |
|
