Dan
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,858
|
Post by Dan on May 16, 2024 12:12:06 GMT 1
VAR itself isn't the issue. It's the way it's applied in practice. Every stadium that uses VAR should have big screens at either end and the VAR replays should be shown live, as should the discussion be heard live. Keeps everyone engaged and honest. VAR is an issue as you can't celebrate goals properly until someone sat in an office has gone through it with a fine tooth comb. |
|
|
|
Post by markthehorn on May 16, 2024 12:12:56 GMT 1
VAR itself isn't the issue. It's the way it's applied in practice. Every stadium that uses VAR should have big screens at either end and the VAR replays should be shown live, as should the discussion be heard live. Keeps everyone engaged and honest. Probably why Man U and Liverpool want to keep it . No screens . |
|
|
|
Post by Sio on May 16, 2024 12:18:55 GMT 1
VAR itself isn't the issue. It's the way it's applied in practice. Every stadium that uses VAR should have big screens at either end and the VAR replays should be shown live, as should the discussion be heard live. Keeps everyone engaged and honest. I hear this argument a lot but it's an easy excuse, for me. Once VAR has been in place for decades, I have no doubt at all that it will have had a detrimental effect on the way people respond to goals - and ultimately that's why we all go watch live. Imagine Coventry scored another counter-attack goal after their disallowed one against Man U - I'd strongly suggest that their fans would've played it safer with their celebrations through fear of the same thing happening; and once that happens, you've killed the game. Very isolated example of course, but it will slowly - maybe without people even realising - drain that spontaneity over years and years. |
|
|
|
Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man (Destabiliser) on May 16, 2024 12:24:26 GMT 1
VAR itself isn't the issue. It's the way it's applied in practice. Every stadium that uses VAR should have big screens at either end and the VAR replays should be shown live, as should the discussion be heard live. Keeps everyone engaged and honest. VAR is an issue as you can't celebrate goals properly until someone sat in an office has gone through it with a fine tooth comb. Never bothers anyone at Cricket or Rugby. It becomes part of the fun. You celebrate, then feel like a dick when the other side celebrate iut being overturned, or you feel like shit then celebrate and take the piss out of the other side's disappointment. |
|
|
|
Post by Sio on May 16, 2024 12:31:10 GMT 1
VAR is an issue as you can't celebrate goals properly until someone sat in an office has gone through it with a fine tooth comb. You celebrate, then feel like a dick when the other side celebrate iut being overturned, or you feel like shit then celebrate and take the piss out of the other side's disappointment. Totally different experiences though. |
|
|
|
Post by rockwall on May 16, 2024 12:40:18 GMT 1
VAR itself isn't the issue. It's the way it's applied in practice. Every stadium that uses VAR should have big screens at either end and the VAR replays should be shown live, as should the discussion be heard live. Keeps everyone engaged and honest. VAR is an issue as you can't celebrate goals properly until someone sat in an office has gone through it with a fine tooth comb. If something is clear and obvious, then as a fan you kind of know that something may/may not be given. |
|
|
|
Post by mosher on May 16, 2024 13:23:46 GMT 1
I hope they do. I’ve hated it since it came in, and the reasons submitted by Wolves pretty much sum up my feelings on it. They missed off the biggest reason: There's still just as many controversial and incorrect decisions with VAR as there were without. |
|
|
|
Post by Torquayterrier on May 16, 2024 13:38:59 GMT 1
VAR itself isn't the issue. It's the way it's applied in practice. Every stadium that uses VAR should have big screens at either end and the VAR replays should be shown live, as should the discussion be heard live. Keeps everyone engaged and honest. Yup, pretty much how I've felt on it from the get go and still do. Was done so much better in world cup. |
|
drewden
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,808
|
Post by drewden on May 16, 2024 15:01:22 GMT 1
VAR itself isn't the issue. It's the way it's applied in practice. Every stadium that uses VAR should have big screens at either end and the VAR replays should be shown live, as should the discussion be heard live. Keeps everyone engaged and honest. Yup, pretty much how I've felt on it from the get go and still do. Was done so much better in world cup. I wonder why they don't. |
|
|
|
Post by jimhtfc on May 16, 2024 15:54:53 GMT 1
Make it similar to the cricket in which the captains can request a review. If the decision is upheld they lose a review. Make it 1 or 2 per match each.
|
|
|
|
Post by markthehorn on May 16, 2024 19:56:23 GMT 1
Make it similar to the cricket in which the captains can request a review. If the decision is upheld they lose a review. Make it 1 or 2 per match each. Do you think in football teams would accept losing a review based on an officials subjective opinion? Not sure they would and you could get the same outcry as now when teams run out and another one gets an advantage by being |
|
|
|
Post by jimhtfc on May 16, 2024 20:35:36 GMT 1
I think thats a flaw in that system for sure, but no matter which way its done there will be complaints. To build in acceptable scope for error the reviews could be limited to 30 seconds.
I think the original premise of VAR which was to eliminate howlers is a good one, its just the implementation of it thats gone awry.
|
|
|
|
Post by themanfromatlantis on May 16, 2024 22:21:26 GMT 1
Make it similar to the cricket in which the captains can request a review. If the decision is upheld they lose a review. Make it 1 or 2 per match each. Do you think in football teams would accept losing a review based on an officials subjective opinion? Not sure they would and you could get the same outcry as now when teams run out and another one gets an advantage by being I’ve said something similar to this, DRS style. What you’ve described above is exactly why football is so different. Rugby, cricket and other sports possibly, acknowledge the laws, respect the refs & umpires (in the main), whereas footballers constantly show themselves up to be some of the most unsporting bastards on the planet. Years ago, the hard men, the cheats were called out because they were the exception. Nowadays you’d have to call out the sportsmen as the exception. |
|
|
|
Post by markthehorn on May 17, 2024 7:04:19 GMT 1
I think thats a flaw in that system for sure, but no matter which way its done there will be complaints. To build in acceptable scope for error the reviews could be limited to 30 seconds. I think the original premise of VAR which was to eliminate howlers is a good one, its just the implementation of it thats gone awry. I suppose they could sit down and work that all out together rather than rush it through because a few people stamped their feet and sang songs on TV after matches . Agree it does now seem to be used for almost everything so when they don’t provide are shocked and surprised. The PL clubs actually did reject it at first of course. I suppose it does work better in Europe but is that just luck or we don’t notice VAR as much because there isn’t quite the limelight on it ? And there is better communication between a higher quality of officials as you might expect at a Euros or Champions league (but even that went wrong last week ) |
|
|
|
Post by impact on May 17, 2024 15:29:52 GMT 1
Reduce it to 1 and it's perfect.
|
|
goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,604
|
Post by goodbet on May 17, 2024 16:41:43 GMT 1
Reduce it to 1 and it's perfect. Who is going to judge the challenge the same people who take so long to come up with so many wrong decisions and appear to come up with biased decisions? |
|
|
|
Post by 28901 on May 17, 2024 17:56:18 GMT 1
I hope they do. I’ve hated it since it came in, and the reasons submitted by Wolves pretty much sum up my feelings on it. They missed off the biggest reason: There's still just as many controversial and incorrect decisions with VAR as there were without. More in some ways. They drone on about it more than ever. |
|
bigtruck
Frank Worthington Terrier
[M0:0][N4:#bigtrucktone#]
Posts: 1,829
|
Post by bigtruck on May 17, 2024 18:33:10 GMT 1
The biggest mistake with VAR is that it’s still asked to make subjective decisions. Fouls, cards, handballs. Cricket and Rugby use it for factual decisions only.
|
|
|
|
Post by markthehorn on May 17, 2024 18:44:34 GMT 1
The biggest mistake with VAR is that it’s still asked to make subjective decisions. Fouls, cards, handballs. Cricket and Rugby use it for factual decisions only. And even that gets questioned now . See Ben Stokes in India for example |
|
|
|
Post by Tim Nice But Dim on May 17, 2024 19:05:25 GMT 1
Var is a load of Humbug and time to bin it. Modern day football is full of cheats while 50 years a go it didn't exist mind you when Brian Clough got the Leeds job he called them a BUNCH of cheats, good old Cloughie.
|
|
|
|
Post by aloadofdbullocks on May 17, 2024 19:07:48 GMT 1
Celebrating a goal is one of the finest moments in life.
VAR takes that away.
Even if it was 100% correct (IT ISN’T!) the loss of this ecstatic moment means VAR should be binned NOW!
|
|
|
|
Post by Tim Nice But Dim on May 17, 2024 19:11:09 GMT 1
For one second they analyze 25 stills, so theoretically you could be offside for a 25th of a second. Bin It Now.
|
|
|
|
Post by jasrick on May 17, 2024 19:42:08 GMT 1
To me any of the proposed amendments to fix VAR don’t achieve that goal, they just move the argument / disagreement from where it is now to another point.
Examples:
Offsides - moving to daylight between the players will result in a cock hair / toe nail width of light being visible between the players (may even still need lines to be drawn as the camera won’t always be at the right angle to see if there is daylight). So you end up with the same argument, just with the line in a different place.
Only use VAR for howlers - sounds good but ultimately you’ll end up with arguments about what is and isn’t a howler. We can all agree the hand of god was a howler but fouls are all on a spectrum of highly debatable to howler. Somewhere along that spectrum a line has to be drawn that says anything beyond this point is a howler. The problem is that spectrum is different for each person watching football so something that is a howler for one person / referee might not quite be bad enough to be a howler to someone else.
Only allow 25/30 seconds of review time - this will result in decisions being timed out and you’ll get ‘how could he not tell that was an error in 30 seconds, I could see it in 10!’ Or the other way round ‘how could he tell that was an error in 30 seconds, I’ve been watching replays for 5 minutes now and I’m still not sure.’
The only appropriate course of action to me is to get it in the bin. Scrap. Done.
|
|
|
|
Post by 28901 on May 17, 2024 23:51:24 GMT 1
To me any of the proposed amendments to fix VAR don’t achieve that goal, they just move the argument / disagreement from where it is now to another point. Examples: Offsides - moving to daylight between the players will result in a cock hair / toe nail width of light being visible between the players (may even still need lines to be drawn as the camera won’t always be at the right angle to see if there is daylight). So you end up with the same argument, just with the line in a different place. Only use VAR for howlers - sounds good but ultimately you’ll end up with arguments about what is and isn’t a howler. We can all agree the hand of god was a howler but fouls are all on a spectrum of highly debatable to howler. Somewhere along that spectrum a line has to be drawn that says anything beyond this point is a howler. The problem is that spectrum is different for each person watching football so something that is a howler for one person / referee might not quite be bad enough to be a howler to someone else. Only allow 25/30 seconds of review time - this will result in decisions being timed out and you’ll get ‘how could he not tell that was an error in 30 seconds, I could see it in 10!’ Or the other way round ‘how could he tell that was an error in 30 seconds, I’ve been watching replays for 5 minutes now and I’m still not sure.’ The only appropriate course of action to me is to get it in the bin. Scrap. Done. This |
|
|
|
Post by markthehorn on May 18, 2024 8:08:39 GMT 1
To me any of the proposed amendments to fix VAR don’t achieve that goal, they just move the argument / disagreement from where it is now to another point. Examples: Offsides - moving to daylight between the players will result in a cock hair / toe nail width of light being visible between the players (may even still need lines to be drawn as the camera won’t always be at the right angle to see if there is daylight). So you end up with the same argument, just with the line in a different place. Only use VAR for howlers - sounds good but ultimately you’ll end up with arguments about what is and isn’t a howler. We can all agree the hand of god was a howler but fouls are all on a spectrum of highly debatable to howler. Somewhere along that spectrum a line has to be drawn that says anything beyond this point is a howler. The problem is that spectrum is different for each person watching football so something that is a howler for one person / referee might not quite be bad enough to be a howler to someone else. Only allow 25/30 seconds of review time - this will result in decisions being timed out and you’ll get ‘how could he not tell that was an error in 30 seconds, I could see it in 10!’ Or the other way round ‘how could he tell that was an error in 30 seconds, I’ve been watching replays for 5 minutes now and I’m still not sure.’ The only appropriate course of action to me is to get it in the bin. Scrap. Done. Yes it will be “ the ref rushed their decision as under pressure “ and so they will get probably just go with what they are told straight away even more ! I think fans and clubs don’t like it for different reasons . Fans hate the delays and lack of communication whilst clubs basically just don’t like decisions changing or not being over turned the way they want it to . |
|
|
|
Post by jimhtfc on May 18, 2024 8:37:48 GMT 1
What ever system there is, the fans and clubs will moan which is why its easy to see everyone's point on here because there is no good solution. Take us for example when Welch gave the penalty which cost us points at Bristol, had VAR overturned that we'd have been delighted given how important it looked like it would be at the time. On the flip side we've been on the wrong end of poor VAR decisions in the play off final.
Whatever the system there will be mistakes. The delay using VAR is definitely a problem and does ruin the experience which is why it needs to be minimised, but then when your team gets cheated in a game where the stakes are huge, that also ruins the experience. Another good example is Henry's handball to help france score against Ireland which potentially denied them going to the world cup, would have been picked up very quickly by VAR. I'd support the challenge system with a limited review time because it cuts delay although doesn't eliminate it, should stop the obvious howlers that were missed in full speed real time.
If they got rid of it altogether i'd not be that bothered either.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arbie 1976. on May 18, 2024 10:00:06 GMT 1
If you have 1 or 2 challenges for VAR decisions and you use them early and lose them then the opposition may then think they can take more liberties knowing there is no more VAR challenges to come!
HATE THE GRAPPLING IN THE BOX, DRIVES ME MAD.
UTT.
|
|
|
|
Post by 28901 on May 18, 2024 16:19:34 GMT 1
What ever system there is, the fans and clubs will moan which is why its easy to see everyone's point on here because there is no good solution. Take us for example when Welch gave the penalty which cost us points at Bristol, had VAR overturned that we'd have been delighted given how important it looked like it would be at the time. On the flip side we've been on the wrong end of poor VAR decisions in the play off final. Whatever the system there will be mistakes. The delay using VAR is definitely a problem and does ruin the experience which is why it needs to be minimised, but then when your team gets cheated in a game where the stakes are huge, that also ruins the experience. Another good example is Henry's handball to help france score against Ireland which potentially denied them going to the world cup, would have been picked up very quickly by VAR. I'd support the challenge system with a limited review time because it cuts delay although doesn't eliminate it, should stop the obvious howlers that were missed in full speed real time. If they got rid of it altogether i'd not be that bothered either. I don't the VAR would have overturned Welches ridiculous penalty decision. |
|
|
|
Post by Sio on May 19, 2024 14:15:49 GMT 1
Perfectly sensible use of VAR just now in Crewe v Crawley. Play stopped, penalties always take ages anyway - no harm in using it there for an obvious, objective error.
|
|
|
|
Post by softboy on May 19, 2024 17:39:52 GMT 1
Will be a bit odd if the PL get rid of VAR and the only time it’s used are in the Championship, L1 and L2 play off finals.
|
|
