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Post by seanyd1brit on Apr 8, 2013 17:34:41 GMT 1
Should add a little bit of spice to our performance this evening! linkWhat's Mark Robins doing playing a leading role in that? He should be working on our tactics for opposition corners...  |
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 8, 2013 17:35:02 GMT 1
Firstly, £30 billion and £120 billion, if the estimates are between those 2 it suggests the real answer is we haven't got a clue. Secondly, tax avoidance perfectly legal just need an accountant that understands the rules. You cant count tax in your estimate that people can legally avoid paying. Maybe more useful terminology, 'tax incentive' for taking a risk and investing some of your hard earned cash in Britain rather than elsewhere, contributing something to society like these viable jobs you talk about. Finally the selling of council houses was offered at a discount to tenants that met certain criteria not landlords. If the tenants decided to make a quick profit, or the council decided not to reinvest the money in building more council houses it's not Thatchers fault. Just as you can distinguish between tax avoidance (playing the system) & evasion (breaking the law), you can do the same with with benefits. Anyone getting any benefit has either presented their circumstances & been awarded it, or lied. To apply different value judgements between the two is as best hypocritical, at worst prejudiced. Every penny screwed from the Government through creative accountancy or creative claiming takes money away from schools, hospitals, the Third World or whatever cause you think is important. The only difference is in the amounts lost & the rich do it to a significantly greater extent than the poor. More to the point, Thatcher created both the economic circumstances to allow the wealthy to cream the system, & destroyed the industrial heartland of Britain to the extent that created inter-generation welfare dependency across the country. On your last point, councils were prohibited from building houses with the money, & the stock they had remaining was largely privatised. That was her fault. Think the unions were doing a fine job of that on their own! She inherited a crazy situation with the TUC literally sending the country back to the dark ages at their every whim. The country was a joke, stiffled by their continual demands and strikes as they sent their various industries on a suicide course at just the worst possible time as better transport links opened up markets to far cheaper goods from asia. The country couldn't continue being held to ransom by a collection of fat, self-serving trade union leaders, and putting them down was the best thing thatcher did IMO and something we're still benefitting from now. Like all women, she didn't know when to stop though and ended up killing industries that could still have been viable- the worst thing she did. |
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Post by andyeastleake on Apr 8, 2013 17:36:20 GMT 1
Why oh why would you have a minutes silence AT A FOOTBALL MATCH for any politician? Never mind one for arguably the most reviled politician in modern history? I hope you're right Ted. I have sympathy for her family but I don't see why I should be expected at my choice of entertainment to stand in silence for a person for who I had next to no respect for (more like contempt). The hypocrisy of some of her speeches is mind boggling. PS I think her "strength" over the falklands is seriously overstated. A British territory was invaded by a "force" considerably weaker than that we possessed. I find it impossible to imagine a prime minister of any political persuasion would have acted any differently. How come TB with his " no-nonsense" exaggeration of the threat of the threat of weapons of mass destruction isn't remembered as a "hard man" in the same way? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 17:48:25 GMT 1
I'd just love to see some of you lot trying to run the country. Amateur politicians, can't beat em (unfortunately!)  |
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jwhudd802
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Post by jwhudd802 on Apr 8, 2013 17:48:56 GMT 1
Why oh why would you have a minutes silence AT A FOOTBALL MATCH for any politician? Never mind one for arguably the most reviled politician in modern history? I hope you're right Ted. I have sympathy for her family but I don't see why I should be expected at my choice of entertainment to stand in silence for a person for who I had next to no respect for (more like contempt). The hypocrisy of some of her speeches is mind boggling. PS I think her "strength" over the falklands is seriously overstated. A British territory was invaded by a "force" considerably weaker than that we possessed. I find it impossible to imagine a prime minister of any political persuasion would have acted any differently. How come TB with his " no-nonsense" exaggeration of the threat of the threat of weapons of mass destruction isn't remembered as a "hard man" in the same way? Michael Foot/Dennis Healy etc would definitely not have done the same.....they were shocking in their condemnation bordering on treason. |
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Post by DeepSpace on Apr 8, 2013 18:21:56 GMT 1
On the subject of the unions, whether or not they were too powerful (in itself a questionable point) there was little need to destroy whole swathes of society to achieve the objective. Anyone who thinks that wasn't a definite plan should read the speeches & writing of Keith Joseph around the mid-1970s which clearly set out a strategy of creating mass unemployment to destroy the unions. Joseph was named by Thatcher as a valuable mentor & was clearly advising her in the early stages of her premiership.
On the subject of the Falklands, what most reasonable politicians would not have done is deliberately sink a battleship heading away from the disputed territory in order to scupper a peace plan which was on the table.
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mallyb
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Post by mallyb on Apr 8, 2013 18:32:30 GMT 1
On the subject of the unions, whether or not they were too powerful (in itself a questionable point) there was little need to destroy whole swathes of society to achieve the objective. Anyone who thinks that wasn't a definite plan should read the speeches & writing of Keith Joseph around the mid-1970s which clearly set out a strategy of creating mass unemployment to destroy the unions. Joseph was named by Thatcher as a valuable mentor & was clearly advising her in the early stages of her premiership. On the subject of the Falklands, what most reasonable politicians would not have done is deliberately sink a battleship heading away from the disputed territory in order to scupper a peace plan which was on the table. Unions being too powerful a questionable point?  Maybe you forgot the 1970's, rubbish piled up because of strikes, rolling power cuts, union demands leading to the tax payer subsidizing every British Leyland car to leave the factory. Ever wondered why we had 4 general elections in 9 years? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 18:42:37 GMT 1
She won the Premiership three times in a row,before Man United
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Post by wildbillthetownfan on Apr 8, 2013 18:46:23 GMT 1
No time for the woman at all, she didn't give a damn about the working man and then there was the Falklands war, which could have been avoided.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 18:52:27 GMT 1
One thing I will give Margaret Thatcher credit for is how she helped to redefined class boundaries in this country and by doing so make the left even stronger.
Using military methods defined and refined on the working class of the six counties in the North of Ireland she, Keith Joseph and Norman Tebbit destroyed the jobs, communities and lives of hundreds of thousands of honest hard working people. This in turn exposed the bankrupt politics and policies of the Stalinist left in this country and created conditions by which ‘The International Committee of the Four International’ HAD to split from so called revolutionary tendencies and form the World Socialist Party.
For this, I thank you Thatcher, Joseph and Tebbit!
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Post by wildbillthetownfan on Apr 8, 2013 18:59:49 GMT 1
Norman get on ya bike Tebbit just another typical Tory. Yes she did stand up for this country, but how anyone can say she did a good job is beyond me.
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cj01
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Post by cj01 on Apr 8, 2013 19:02:41 GMT 1
I'm a fairly mild mannered and even tempered sort of a person. Those who know me sometimes criticize me for being too "fair", too ready to see the other person's point of view, even when I disagree with them. By nature and profession I have worked to try and ensure justice prevails.
So I think it says something when I say that since the dawning of my political awareness (just before Harold Wilson became PM) whilst I have mildly liked, or disliked, mildly agreed, or mildly disagreed with (and often despaired of) all the PM's I have lived under, Margaret Thatcher is the only one that I actively hated at the time and have never forgiven for what she did.
Like so many things, moderation is usually better than extremism. Speaking as a lifelong socialist (albeit pretty right wing, so to speak) I accept that her attempts to curb the extremism of the unions was much needed. They were bringing the country to it's knees (Winter of Discontent.)(Even Harold Wilson wanted to curb union power back in the sixties but couldn't get enough support from within his own party.) But she was too extreme, went too far and emasculated them to such an extent that they no can no longer fulfill the very useful and much needed purpose for which they were invented.
The results of her policy were that not only were the unions curbed (i.e ruined), she also managed to destroy the mining industry as a by-product. I had little time for Arthur Scargil but in one thing he was right when he brandished the lists of pits he said she planned to close and which she denied. She closed them - and more. She told us there was little or no coal left, not what those who are opening or reopening pits are saying today.
Her attempts to curb the waste and expense of some of the nationalised industries was taken too far by her adoption of the privatisation of those industries. She wanted to dismantle large sections of the nationalised industries/welfare state and by god she succeeded. (No credit to subsequent Labour governments who were ineffective at reversing some of her outcomes.)
But above all, what I hated her for was her encouragement of the weak to the wall, power to the rich and successful, up ladder jack I'm fireproof/let the devil take the hindmost attitude. Her encouragement of that and acceptance of it, set a tone for the avaricious and their ilk to openly behave that way without fear of any significant criticism, reversing the more caring society that had developed with the introduction of the Welfare State.
That "change" in the society (actually a reversion to the old Tory days of overly strong employers and no protection from exploitation of the less well placed or well advantaged) has continued until today and is shown nowadays in the power of the bankers and the captains of industry and lack of genuine concern for the so called "weaker" businesses and those who depend on them for a living. Any criticism of those standards, as we've seen with the bankers, is largely ineffective, so insidious and ingrained have Thatcher's morals become.
For the record, I agree with attempts (then and now) to limit the extent of the welfare state by cutting down on the "benefits lifestyle". There is still much wrong - but her methods were not the answer.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 8, 2013 19:07:13 GMT 1
I hope you're right Ted. I have sympathy for her family but I don't see why I should be expected at my choice of entertainment to stand in silence for a person for who I had next to no respect for (more like contempt). The hypocrisy of some of her speeches is mind boggling. PS I think her "strength" over the falklands is seriously overstated. A British territory was invaded by a "force" considerably weaker than that we possessed. I find it impossible to imagine a prime minister of any political persuasion would have acted any differently. How come TB with his " no-nonsense" exaggeration of the threat of the threat of weapons of mass destruction isn't remembered as a "hard man" in the same way? Michael Foot/Dennis Healy etc would definitely not have done the same.....they were shocking in their condemnation bordering on treason. If it were treasonous to oppose the Falkland conflict hang me now... In your world would it also have been treasonous to return other far flung colonial outposts in the face of force or threat? |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 8, 2013 19:10:05 GMT 1
One thing I will give Margaret Thatcher credit for is how she helped to redefined class boundaries in this country and by doing so make the left even stronger. Using military methods defined and refined on the working class of the six counties in the North of Ireland she, Keith Joseph and Norman Tebbit destroyed the jobs, communities and lives of hundreds of thousands of honest hard working people. This in turn exposed the bankrupt politics and policies of the Stalinist left in this country and created conditions by which ‘The International Committee of the Four International’ HAD to split from so called revolutionary tendencies and form the World Socialist Party. For this, I thank you Thatcher, Joseph and Tebbit! yeah Acetripper what a powerhouse the far left is now  |
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Post by DeepSpace on Apr 8, 2013 19:10:26 GMT 1
On the subject of the unions, whether or not they were too powerful (in itself a questionable point) there was little need to destroy whole swathes of society to achieve the objective. Anyone who thinks that wasn't a definite plan should read the speeches & writing of Keith Joseph around the mid-1970s which clearly set out a strategy of creating mass unemployment to destroy the unions. Joseph was named by Thatcher as a valuable mentor & was clearly advising her in the early stages of her premiership. On the subject of the Falklands, what most reasonable politicians would not have done is deliberately sink a battleship heading away from the disputed territory in order to scupper a peace plan which was on the table. Unions being too powerful a questionable point? Maybe you forgot the 1970's, rubbish piled up because of strikes, rolling power cuts, union demands leading to the tax payer subsidizing every British Leyland car to leave the factory. Ever wondered why we had 4 general elections in 9 years? Yes it's a debatable point, & I'd be happy to debate it. But if you read the post, my point was to do with how they pursued their beliefs, not whether their argument was justified. If I need to consider rubbish piled up, you equally need to consider (for example), cars being stopped & turned around on the motorways if the driver had a Yorkshire accent during the miners strike, an array of civil unrest & the kind of breaches of basic human rights that we'd shake our head at happening anywhere else, communities being divided against each other, huge increases in suicide rates in affected communities, & that's just looking at the industrial relations bit of what she did. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 19:28:57 GMT 1
One thing I will give Margaret Thatcher credit for is how she helped to redefined class boundaries in this country and by doing so make the left even stronger. Using military methods defined and refined on the working class of the six counties in the North of Ireland she, Keith Joseph and Norman Tebbit destroyed the jobs, communities and lives of hundreds of thousands of honest hard working people. This in turn exposed the bankrupt politics and policies of the Stalinist left in this country and created conditions by which ‘The International Committee of the Four International’ HAD to split from so called revolutionary tendencies and form the World Socialist Party. For this, I thank you Thatcher, Joseph and Tebbit! yeah Acetripper what a powerhouse the far left is now Ha ha! Little do you know my friend! Well trained cadre that we are, we await for the moment when objective conditions are right for us to more! An analysis and understanding that is probably beyond your comprehension. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 19:29:30 GMT 1
"There is no such thing as society" Margaret Thatcher - 1988
"There is no such thing as Margaret Thatcher" society - 2013
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Post by jimharrogate on Apr 8, 2013 19:38:42 GMT 1
A lot defends on how old you are- I was happy with some of her policies to curb the Unions.
They held the country to ransom and we had no bins emptied for weeks, every business was on strike and this was leading to businesses closing eg the car factories, we had no electricity or lights on at home 3 days a week in winter-they ran riot and Labour including our favourite supporter Harold Wilson had to give up.
I had to join a union to work and after joining one, 3 days later I had to go on strike with no pay unless I picketed.
I left my job and went down south to find another job.
I knew of a "scab" who worked during a strike on a building site and he was allowed to fall 8 floors down from a "sabotaged" lift shaft and spent his life in a wheel chair.
My family were miners and had to support the strike but no one won in the end-many mines had to close and she was used by her party to bring this change about.Scargill was a clown who only worked to promote his political left wing agenda and did not try and get a better deal for his miners.
Thatcher also promoted British goods and everything sold by M & S was UK made with 1000's of Yorkshire workers producing these goods.
Her party latterly made some bad decisions when they had bashed the unions to death and many thousands of northern manufacturing jobs went, council houses sold off which could have been handled better but many working class and socialists bought their houses.
I won't mourn her death but as they say "cometh the hour cometh the man" and we needed a tough person to battle for this country such as negotiating with the EU. and having a go at Union Bullies.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 19:39:34 GMT 1
Politics and Religion. Nothing but opinions.
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rocky
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Post by rocky on Apr 8, 2013 19:40:17 GMT 1
On the subject of the unions, whether or not they were too powerful (in itself a questionable point) there was little need to destroy whole swathes of society to achieve the objective. Anyone who thinks that wasn't a definite plan should read the speeches & writing of Keith Joseph around the mid-1970s which clearly set out a strategy of creating mass unemployment to destroy the unions. Joseph was named by Thatcher as a valuable mentor & was clearly advising her in the early stages of her premiership. On the subject of the Falklands, what most reasonable politicians would not have done is deliberately sink a battleship heading away from the disputed territory in order to scupper a peace plan which was on the table. Whatever you think about Thatcher, the bit about the Belgrano is utter nonsense. It's direction of travel when it was hit is irrelevant - warships do have steering wheels mate It was sunk because it was part of a pincer movement trying to attack the British fleet & it undoubtedly saved many British lives because the Argentine ships never set sail again. |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Apr 8, 2013 19:43:27 GMT 1
No one in British politics has divided opinion so massively as Margaret Thatcher, personally I hated the woman with a passion, she was a typical Tory and stood for everything I despise about the Tory party. It was during her reign that unemployment was sky high, social decay and unrest rampant and she turned the North of England into a wasteland. Another thing that is very apparent in modern day society that can be laid at her door is rampant desire for money and materialism and a 'me,me,me' culture that we see nowadays, suppose we shouldn't be surprised its the foundation of the Tory party ethos, 'make lots of money and fuck the working classes'. She was quick to condemn the fans at Hillsborough before being in possession of the facts and would have ruined football totally with her 'membership scheme' for fans (although she was doing it for the right reason,but going about it totally the wrong way, again showing little understanding of the working classes), along with that prick Colin Moynihan.
She did allow me to buy my council house though....a grand gesture, but not for working class people to improve their lots but to save the government money. Once the houses were off their hands they didn't have to maintain them or pay for their upkeep.
Sorry, its said someone has died but we're probably gonna have to listen to some bullshit sainted view of her instead of the truth.....its a interesting period in British history and I'm sure she won't be judged as harshly as she deserves by history.
And a 'right wing socialist'...no such thing mate!!!
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 8, 2013 19:44:20 GMT 1
yeah Acetripper what a powerhouse the far left is now Ha ha! Little do you know my friend! Well trained cadre that we are, we await for the moment when objective conditions are right for us to more! An analysis and understanding that is probably beyond your comprehension. I speak as someone who has always seen myself as towards the far left of politics, but who cant quite forget the deluded "citizen smith" types who permeated the halls of residence during my time at university. Ace if i was you id get back on the acid mate cos the socialist revolution wont be happening any time soon.. Even my old mate on here's "real world" is more real than yours |
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Post by artysid on Apr 8, 2013 19:44:41 GMT 1
Not sure its an age thing Jim.
The love her or hate her theme is as deep in the generation that live through the 70's 80's as in any other generations.
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 8, 2013 19:51:50 GMT 1
Michael Foot/Dennis Healy etc would definitely not have done the same.....they were shocking in their condemnation bordering on treason. If it were treasonous to oppose the Falkland conflict hang me now... In your world would it also have been treasonous to return other far flung colonial outposts in the face of force or threat? returning the Falklands wasn't an option as they'd never been argentinian. The only alternative to the war would have been to just roll over and let them have it. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 19:56:56 GMT 1
Ha ha! Little do you know my friend! Well trained cadre that we are, we await for the moment when objective conditions are right for us to more! An analysis and understanding that is probably beyond your comprehension. I speak as someone who has always seen myself as towards the far left of politics, but who cant quite forget the deluded "citizen smith" types who permeated the halls of residence during my time at university. Ace if i was you id get back on the acid mate cos the socialist revolution wont be happening any time soon.. Even my old mate on here's "real world" is more real than yours My world is very real.......believe me |
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Post by OldRastrickian on Apr 8, 2013 19:57:43 GMT 1
She was an outstanding political leader.....those who have followed her were/are pygmies by comparison. You didn't have to like her to respect her.
Mining industry....N Sea gas did for that (UK coal production actually peaked in 1913).
Privatised industries......these parts of the public sector (BT, BA, etc, etc) required massive investment in order to move them forward. So, massive tax rises, or sell them (a bonus to the taxpayer) and let the markets invest. Which they did....several became leading world companies.
Falklands.....there will be many Argentinians mourning her passing today. Her courageous action resulted in the overthrow of a foul dictatorship in that country.
Breaking the UK unions.......long overdue. And don't give me the crap about the poor miners.....Scargill's strategy was to close the power stations, bankrupt companies, ramp up deaths from hypothermia (ex-miners excluded because of their free concessionary coal), and overthrow a democratically-elected government. Many miners wanted to work....Scargill's battalions intimidated them to the nth degree. I was working in S Yorks in the 1970s....pit absenteeism on a Monday, or after a Bank Hol, was always 20+%. A lot of those buggers couldn't be arsed to work....the pits were kept going by massive public subsidy, whilst many private companies went bust (and still do) because they receive no public subsidy.
Margaret Thatcher.....RIP.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 20:01:43 GMT 1
Lots of people disliked her, I just found her a miner irritation
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Apr 8, 2013 20:03:19 GMT 1
She was an outstanding political leader.....those who have followed her were/are pygmies by comparison. You didn't have to like her to respect her. Mining industry....N Sea gas did for that (UK coal production actually peaked in 1913). Privatised industries......these parts of the public sector (BT, BA, etc, etc) required massive investment in order to move them forward. So, massive tax rises, or sell them (a bonus to the taxpayer) and let the markets invest. Which they did....several became leading world companies. Falklands.....there will be many Argentinians mourning her passing today. Her courageous action resulted in the overthrow of a foul dictatorship in that country. Breaking the UK unions.......long overdue. And don't give me the crap about the poor miners.....Scargill's strategy was to close the power stations, bankrupt companies, ramp up deaths from hypothermia (ex-miners excluded because of their free concessionary coal), and overthrow a democratically-elected government. Many miners wanted to work....Scargill's battalions intimidated them to the nth degree. I was working in S Yorks in the 1970s....pit absenteeism on a Monday, or after a Bank Hol, was always 20+%. A lot of those buggers couldn't be arsed to work....the pits were kept going by massive public subsidy, whilst many private companies went bust (and still do) because they receive no public subsidy. Margaret Thatcher.....RIP. Fooking hell....someone who actually liked her and her policies, nowt worse than a working class Tory!!! |
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Apr 8, 2013 20:03:49 GMT 1
If Margaret Thatcher was still around as Prime Minister this country would be in a whole lot better state than it currently is! We wouldn't have the problems we have now with too much immigration, contributing massively to crime rates and to housing shortages. And I wouldn't be paying 50% tax on some of my earnings as well!
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jwhudd802
Iain Dunn Terrier
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Post by jwhudd802 on Apr 8, 2013 20:16:49 GMT 1
If it were treasonous to oppose the Falkland conflict hang me now... In your world would it also have been treasonous to return other far flung colonial outposts in the face of force or threat? returning the Falklands wasn't an option as they'd never been argentinian. The only alternative to the war would have been to just roll over and let them have it. Correct.....which would have then encouraged others to invade British territory and take captive British people knowing they would get away with it |
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Maybe you forgot the 1970's, rubbish piled up because of strikes, rolling power cuts, union demands leading to the tax payer subsidizing every British Leyland car to leave the factory. Ever wondered why we had 4 general elections in 9 years?
